Always wrong

[CrazyChuck]

It sucks that I have to always be wrong. If I get angry my wife will top it 10X. She will not stop until I apologize about whatever mean thing she did. It is so hard. And after I apologize, I have to do it over and over for about 2 days. She can never be wrong. I'm so tired of not being able to express myself or my feelings.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[sad but wiser]

With cluster B (like BPD, narcissism, ect) normal goes out the window. You have to be pretty superhuman to deal with it and not lose your inner "compass" for reality and ethics.  Drawing boundaries and sticking to them is tough.  We'd all rather not be yelled at, so we cave.
  For me, it helped to know that the forcefulness of his anger did not determine who was right or wrong.  It also helped to view him as a very angry toddler who wanted his way at all costs. (A 215 lb angry toddler, unfortunately.)
I hope this can help.  Every time you give in, they become more certain they were right.  Good resources here can help a lot.
☕

[livednlearned]

Hi CrazyChuck,

That sounds exhausting.

It sucks that I have to always be wrong.

Subtle nuance, but is it that it sucks that you have to always be wrong? Or is it that you need her to recognize you're right and she's wrong?

You probably are right. She probably experiences reality through her emotions (feelings = facts), and that can be like communicating with someone in a parallel universe.

I once saw someone on the board ask, Do you want to be right, or do you want to get along? There are some relationship skills that can help if the goal is to get along, without having to be "wrong"

[CrazyChuck]

Hi CrazyChuck,

That sounds exhausting.

It sucks that I have to always be wrong.

Subtle nuance, but is it that it sucks that you have to always be wrong? Or is it that you need her to recognize you're right and she's wrong?

You probably are right. She probably experiences reality through her emotions (feelings = facts), and that can be like communicating with someone in a parallel universe.

I once saw someone on the board ask, Do you want to be right, or do you want to get along? There are some relationship skills that can help if the goal is to get along, without having to be "wrong"

Like tonight. We go out to eat. As we pull up to the restaurant, she asks what time are our reservations. I didn't make reservations. She is pissed that she told me to make reservations last week. I told her I didn't remember her request for that. We go in and it is about a 10 minute wait. They are clearing the table. But she is already telling me to "leave her alone" "don't talk to me" "I want to leave". The night is over just like so many nights. It could be anything. I made reservations too early, too late, the waitress touched my arm, anything can ruin the evening. It just sucks

[CrazyChuck]

Plus the day was going great. It's like one second to ___tville.

[CrazyChuck]

And going to this restaurant was a last second idea. We were tossing around ideas on where to go. It wasn't a plan.

[Lockjaw]

I can relate to how you feel. My GF is this way. She knows everything about everything. And like you said, I never seem to pick the right option, because usually both options are wrong.

If you haven't seen this webpage, look up the nicola method. It's an interesting website and she has a phrase developed to help you get the person with traits to say what really is the issue. This woman says you will likely never get a BP to admit they are wrong, you can get close and have to be satisfied with it.

Mine can also spin or justify anything. It's ok if she does it, me, not so much. I am trying to just let it go when it happens. She has many good qualties, and when we aren't arguing, I enjoy her a lot. She is one of the few women I have ever liked in my space. Go figure.

Good luck!

[dacoming]

I can relate to this all too well.  Most of the time, she twists facts around to make her point.  Then she gets our daughter (technically my step daughter) to back up her account of events which she does 100% of the time (even at times when she wasn't around when the event happened).  They try to convince me that she was there and something is wrong with my mind.  When I try to express my side, she yells at me for being defensive and lying... .if I keep trying to get my point in, she over talks me tries to cut the conversation off instantly.  Personally, I wish there was a way we could record ALL of our interactions and go back to the recordings when things happen.  She'd likely find a way to say I doctored the recordings or something... .

[livednlearned]

People with BPD feel deeply, tragically inadequate. Being right is a desperate attempt to protect themselves from the shameful feeling that they are flawed. We experience a fraction of the pain they experience over being wrong, it is chronic and unrelenting for them, whereas non-BPD people can engage in reality testing and puzzle it all together, throw up our arms and shake our heads.

She is speaking with pure emotion, cloaked in logic. You are responding with logic, and that does not quite compute for her. Validation is a way to translate, to help speak her language so that she does not continue to escalate, which is what many of us do when we feel people are not hearing us.

It sounds simple to answer the question, Do I want to be right, or do I want to get along? It's in practice much more difficult to answer. Feeling right is a great feeling especially when we really are right. 

It's not easy being the emotional leader, and yet that's what it takes in BPD relationships.

Have you tried validation with her when she is being contrary?

[Hmcbart]

Do I want to be right or do I want to get along?

That's what I'm trying to teach my 14y/o right now. He is constantly butting heads with my wife because he's a teenager and that's what they do.  In her mind she's never wrong so for him to try and prove otherwise causes all kinds of issues.   I have to figure out how to teach him to agree to disagree without actually accepting he is wrong because sometimes he isn't wrong. 

He also needs to learn not to say that he agrees to disagree because I've found that she doesn't accept that.  She only wants to hear she is right and you're wrong.  I can walk away and leave the conversation but for him to do it he is being disrespectful.  There is a very fine line to walk here and I'm not sure how to teach him to do it without basically teaching him to walk on eggshells with me.  So frustrating.

[CrazyChuck]

Have you tried validation with her when she is being contrary?

I have become a very good validator. But lately she has started becoming upset with validation. She has stated that my validation is my vain attempt to rehash what made her mad in the beginning. She says that when she is upset she feels the only way for me to understand is for her to yell and scream. And that if I understood her, I would just shut-up. That nothing more needs to be said after that. Validation is not needed. I just need to shut my mouth.

[CrazyChuck]

Do I want to be right or do I want to get along?

That's what I'm trying to teach my 14y/o right now. He is constantly butting heads with my wife because he's a teenager and that's what they do.  In her mind she's never wrong so for him to try and prove otherwise causes all kinds of issues.   I have to figure out how to teach him to agree to disagree without actually accepting he is wrong because sometimes he isn't wrong. 

He also needs to learn not to say that he agrees to disagree because I've found that she doesn't accept that.  She only wants to hear she is right and you're wrong.  I can walk away and leave the conversation but for him to do it he is being disrespectful.  There is a very fine line to walk here and I'm not sure how to teach him to do it without basically teaching him to walk on eggshells with me.  So frustrating.

I get this. If I try to leave the conversation, I am told that I am ignoring her and that will send her into a frenzy. I have to stand there and take her anger, say that I am sorry and that I am wrong, and then shut up. I can often validate that I understand that my going to the bathroom upset her because she needed to get ready for bed. And I should have held it until she had decided to get ready for bed. She will respond that I am narcissistic and always thinking about myself. And then I will say she is correct, and I am very very very sorry. She will say that she is sick and tired of me doing this to her. I will again say I'm sorry and it was all my fault. And then everything will be good again. But then sometimes I say "How am I supposed to know when you are going to decide to get ready for bed?" And that will be like pulling the trigger. That will get me about two days of dirty looks and silent treatment after about an hour of yelling.

[Meili]

And, you don't actually have to tell her that she's right. You can validate the feelings without validating the invalid facts. It's a difficult skill to master, but it can be done.

I've learned that it isn't actually about being right or wrong, it's about pwBPD not being told that their emotions are wrong. To them, that equates to telling them that they are flawed and not a good person.

As was said, feelings = fact. When you start disputing and debating the facts of the issue, you are telling them that you think that they are a bad person.

The other thing that I've learned is to not take any of it personally.

[livednlearned]

Sometimes, too, the reason things get worse is because unmet needs are not being met, and that may or may not be within our control, we can only practice the skills.

At the core of this is empathy and compassion, which is why our own self-care is so important. If you are worn down and resentful, it can be hard to feel the empathy necessary to use the skills effectively, in my experience.

Late night arguments over small things is hard to deal with when you just want to sleep. I have wondered if it's the fatigue and irritation that triggers things more than the fear of abandonment raised by the prospect of separating into our own worlds at night. People who struggle with BPD are extremely hypersensitive and can sense resentment and distancing, and mine seems to have a radar for sensing even a tinge of irritation.

My BPD loved one also seems to wind up at night, that's when the neediness reaches its peak. I have to make sure I get my own needs met so I have some empathy there, and have the kind of emotional strength necessary to weather her spinning at night. We would walk every night at a set time, and when she seemed to be emotionally regulated, I would offer to make tea and we would do a puzzle together, neither of which are things I would normally do.

It's hard with teens. They may have picked up communication dynamics from their BPD parent, on top of usual teen stuff. And if BPD is undiagnosed, you sort of have to do charades to get the point across