Are they the ultimate master manipulators

[camuse]

It's also interesting to note that, on the "PUA" forums - where the residents consider themselves the masters as manipulating women for easy no strings sex - posters advise each other to not bother with BPDs and similar, since they are too dangerous. Their view is that, while they are very good at their "game", these women are the ultimate masters, since they do it instinctively, and cannot be "out-gamed."

Stay away, unless you like great danger.

[Chasing_Ghosts]

Their view is that, while they are very good at their "game", these women are the ultimate masters, since they do it instinctively, and cannot be "out-gamed."

The only one that can beat a BPD at their game is an ASPD. Period.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey chasing ghosts, What is an ASPD?  Lucky Jim

[Chasing_Ghosts]

Hey chasing ghosts, What is an ASPD?  Lucky Jim

Anti-Social Personality Disorder. What psychopaths and sociopaths fall under.

[Raybo48]

It's also interesting to note that, on the "PUA" forums - where the residents consider themselves the masters as manipulating women for easy no strings sex - posters advise each other to not bother with BPDs and similar, since they are too dangerous. Their view is that, while they are very good at their "game", these women are the ultimate masters, since they do it instinctively, and cannot be "out-gamed."

Stay away, unless you like great danger.

Also the word 'danger' can't be emphasized enough.  I seriously slept with one eye open half the time I was with her. Sometimes when she was drinking and I was trying to sober her up I'd sleep in the chair in her living room fully clothed with my shoes on and my bag in the car ready to bolt.   It wasn't paranoia either, it was the realization that she was capable of anything at any time.  Many people stayed very clear of her during her drinking days because she got psychical with them. She never did with me, but came close a couple of times.  

[Skip]

The only one that can beat a BPD at their game is an ASPD. Period.

What dos this mean?  I have not seen anything to suggest that ASPD/BPD pairing is a workable combination.  More typically its NPD/BPD. You seem to have strong feelings about this - can you elaborate?

these women are the ultimate masters, since they do it instinctively, and cannot be "out-gamed."

What does being outgamed mean in this context?  Pick-up-artists (PUA) are good at telling people what they want to hear to get what they want (transient sex). Pw BPD cannot be played?

I wold think that pwBPD are pretty vulnerable to being played.

As for manipulation, it helps to remember that it takes two.

Controlling behavior and being controlled is a transaction between two people with both playing a part -- the "controller" and the "controlled".

For the controller, the role is having dysfunctional psychological defenses and coping mechanisms.  

For the controlled, the role is providing an enabling reaction to these dysfunctional reactions.

read more

[Raybo48]

Yea, no doubt I enabled her for the entire 3 years we were together

[Rifka]

It's also interesting to note that, on the "PUA" forums - where the residents consider themselves the masters as manipulating women for easy no strings sex - posters advise each other to not bother with BPDs and similar, since they are too dangerous. Their view is that, while they are very good at their "game", these women are the ultimate masters, since they do it instinctively, and cannot be "out-gamed."

Stay away, unless you like great danger.

What are Pua forums? I tried to google it and got nothing!

[Pingo]

It's also interesting to note that, on the "PUA" forums - where the residents consider themselves the masters as manipulating women for easy no strings sex - posters advise each other to not bother with BPDs and similar, since they are too dangerous. Their view is that, while they are very good at their "game", these women are the ultimate masters, since they do it instinctively, and cannot be "out-gamed."

Stay away, unless you like great danger.

What are Pua forums? I tried to google it and got nothing!

"Pick up artist" forum... .I googled it.  Wished I hadn't.

[Raybo48]

I had no idea a forum existed, what a joke.  A BPD would eat them alive.

[Blimblam]

I really don't see pwBPD as master player predators.  More of master seducers and extremely succeptable to peer pressure and impulsive.  They are actually looking for love. They do not want to have the pattern repeat over and over. They are tormented by the disorder.

We know the pattern we know how it ends. It's a tragedy.

[Turkish]

these women are the ultimate masters, since they do it instinctively, and cannot be "out-gamed."

What does being outgamed mean in this context?  Pick-up-artists (PUA) are good at telling people what they want to hear to get what they want (transient sex). Pw BPD cannot be played?

I would think that pwBPD are pretty vulnerable to being played.

For the controlled, the role is providing an enabling reaction to these dysfunctional reactions.

read more

My Ex was played like a fiddle by her short term exBF before me. She was so distraught over being abandoned by her idealized mate/exBF, that she went out with a guy who literally picked up on her while she was walking down the street. She recounted that she walked by and he said "wow, you're really beautiful!" She replied, "whatever!" and kept walking. He followed her, "no, you really are beautiful!" And thus started their short r/s.

I found a flowery letter he wrote to her in the stuff she left at my house. It was unbelievably manipulative and weird, like something out of a sappy romance novel. Long story short, he stole her car one night to go back to his exGF. She ended up having to get a RO against him. In an unrelated incident, he bragged to a county cell mate about how he played her. In retrospect, he sounded like an NPD. Her utter lack of self worth is what drove her to hooking up with this guy. I thought that at the time, and chalked it up to just that, not understanding that an emotionally stable, confident person would never do something like that. Or maybe I knew that, but I thought "I'm so much better, I can support her." 6 years and two kids later, here I am as a Leaver.

While she may have fooled me in some ways (the mirroring), I don't think she played me--- even though in an argument I accused her of just using me to have a stable father for her children. What she felt at the time was real (that she wanted the white picket fence and the family), until it wasn't. Then it was something else. The things that she wrote to her current bf which I found on my computer was shockingly "junior high schoolish" to quote my T when I read some of it to him. I don't think she was consciously playing her White Knight either (he's getting something out of it, no? A lot of sex, love and a commitment free r/s). It's what she felt, and who I think she really is deep down (maybe), because I never got anything remotely that juvenile in the 6 years she was with me.

Given an unstable sense of self, and a lack of self-worth (thinly veiled by some narcissistic traits), she doesn't know who she is, though she knows who she wants to be. It changes.

Cross-posted with what BB wrote above

They are actually looking for love. They do not want to have the pattern repeat over and over.

I know she doesn't want to do this again. She's trying so hard with this new guy. If anything, he's the one playing her (he's a college age jock paired with a 32 year old professional woman and mother of two). Emotionally, they may be more on the same childish level, given the stuff she wrote to him, but that may be more comfortable for her. It's certainly not a script for long term stability, but she will try to hold onto it as much as she can, like she did two BFs before me. People keep saying "she's still with that guy?" I reply, "you don't know how tormented she was by leaving me. She will do everything she can to make this work, to prove to herself that she made the right choice, even though our T said she was making many foolish choices, and her personal T told her to not leave me (though she lied to her T not telling her that she was seeing someone on the side).

I saw it play out in front of me, even her doing internet searches on "crazy" and self-diagnosing herself as "sick" with "some kind of attachment disorder." She's aware of half of the equation at least.

[clydegriffith]

I really don't see pwBPD as master player predators.  More of master seducers and extremely succeptable to peer pressure and impulsive.  They are actually looking for love. They do not want to have the pattern repeat over and over. They are tormented by the disorder.

We know the pattern we know how it ends. It's a tragedy.

This makes sense, at least in my circumstnaces. Given how completley messed up with BPDx's life has become thanks to the very poor choices she keeps making (trapping guy by having baby, not being able to stop being a ___, repeat), the only explination for this is the mental illness. No normal person would keep putting themsleves in that position. And it is a tragedy. This woman has had all these kids for the sake of trapping guys and when she gets what she wants, she does her best to make sure it all goes to hell.

[fred6]

My ex's got pregnant by a married guy. He was a parent or coach of her son's BMX team or something. Her son told me that at one of the meetings that she came up to him all googly eyed and asked him, "who's that, I wanna meet him". So my ex definitely targeted this guy.

She told me that she knew he was married when they were sleeping together. But that "he was the married one, so he was in the wrong. Not me, I'm not married". She also said that he told her that he had a vasectomy, but he lied to her about that. Now that I look back, I wouldn't be surprised if she made the whole vasectomy story up to place blame on him. Just like the whole, "he was the married one, he was wrong" spill. After she got pregnant and started chasing this guy for child support, she told everyone that "I never wanted him anyway". What the heck? If you never wanted him, why the hell were you with his a$$ then?

After all was said and done this poor guy had a pregnant wife at home and my ex ruined his life. Yes, he was wrong for doing what he did, but from everything I know about the situation, she went after him.

She was also with another guy who was separated(married). In my ex's case, I think that when she see's someone she wants. She turns on the charm and spreads the legs and to hell with anyone in her way. Whether she's in a relationship with someone or whether the target is in a relationship, it doesn't matter. All that matters is what she wants at the time, so yes she was predator like in the past. In the future, who knows?

[Blimblam]

Turkish

Man, I can really relate to that pain. When they realize something is wrong with themself but now we remind them of that so they run to someone new. Often that new person doesn't really love or care about them they just see an opportunity to use someone. Yet our ex tried so hard to get it right this time while we are left broken hearted they wouldn't out that kind if effet into making it right with us the person that loves them and actually wants to forgive them.  It's so tragic!

Fred

I can understand your resentment.  The thing is ther comes a point in the RS when things start going down hill and this is the phase the pwBPD makes themselves available to people outside the RS sort of hedging their bets in case ours fails. At the same time their comes the peer pressure thing.  They usually find someone to complain to about us because they become insecure and typically those people give them advice that they shouldn't be with us because we are so bad to them.  I think it is more about them seeking approval. Then the object consistency thing, they find themselves in a new social situation and they are seekin to find their place in this context utilizing the skills they have.  

[Turkish]

Turkish

Man, I can really relate to that pain. When they realize something is wrong with themselves but now we remind them of that so they run to someone new.

You are right. I became her biggest trigger when she associated me consciously with her feelings towards her uBPD father. She verbalized this. I practically begged her to get help, and that I would support her, especially during the last severe depressive episode while she was still living with me. She took this as me "throwing her sickness in her face." She copes by covering.

[antelope]

I would think that pwBPD are pretty vulnerable to being played.

they definitely are... .b/c of their arrested emotional development they basically lack intuition, and their perception of non-verbal cues is noticeably errant