My uBPDw says I'm disloyal, and she has a point...

[DaddyBear77]

I've been in a relationship with my wife now for 18 years, married for almost 15.

Out of all the conflicts we have, perhaps the biggest, longest standing one is around my family of origin.

Setting aside my wife's BPD and NPD traits, she's a really smart and sensitive person. Early on in our relationship, she picked up on a dysfunctional dynamic between myself and my mother. You see, both my parents come from very dysfunctional families themselves. My parents hardly ever talked about their parents, but on the few occasions that they broke the silence, I've learned that my father's mother probably had BPD traits, and both my mother's father and my father's father were likely very abusive.

A few days ago, my wife found this article:
https://psychcentral.com/lib/competing-family-loyalties-in-the-holiday-season/

The article sums up SO much about my dynamic - you know how many of you had an "ah hah" moment when reading about BPD? Well, I had an "ah hah" moment about myself here.

In particular this part spoke to my situation loud and clear:

As the child becomes an adult, a mother with this anxious, insecure attachment style may refuse to let go, secretly needing to remain the primary love attachment. This may not become apparent until her son finds a romantic love partner and devotes himself to her, allowing a competitor to enter the scene.

For years my wife has been saying I have divided loyalties, and that my mother is threatened by our relationship, but I refused, or couldn't see it. I really feel like I can take this article, and use it as a seed to do some real self work. It's great. I'm excited about it.

But there's a catch... .

My wife read this article and said "you refuse to stand up to your mother! This is proof that you need to! And furthermore your mother is so toxic to us that she must be cut out completely from our lives!"

So in other words, her black and white thinking has led her to the conclusion that the only fix is to go NC with my mother!

I guess I should have expected this reaction, and I know I have work to do regardless, but I'm wondering, how do I go forward here? How do I communicate the shades of grey here? I love my wife, I am very much interested in improving my relationship, but without the proper mutual understanding of what this loyalty bind, childhood issue means, how can I possibly improve both?

Am I articulating my question well? Any questions or insight is welcome.

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[Notwendy]

The statement your wife made also makes me think about projection- where what someone says about someone else reflects more about them than the person they speak about.

From your posts - I could say this : you refuse to stand up to your wife.

I'm not surprised that your FOO includes dysfunction. Mine does too. I was not allowed to stand up for myself to my parents out of fear of losing their love and also feared standing up to my H. These kind of patterns can be passed on.

Beware of black and white thinking being presented as logic - and also an ultimatum deducted from a popular psychology magazine article. Use your sense here. Hey I read one article and that means you should cut contact with your family. Cutting contact is a serious step - and only something you should decide- not because you are told to do it.

I don't think you can present shades of gray to a black and white thinker. You just have to hold on to your own view of this. You don't have to cut off contact with your mother or your wife to learn to stand up for yourself - they just may not like it if you do.

[DaddyBear77]

I don't think you can present shades of gray to a black and white thinker. You just have to hold on to your own view of this.

This is exactly what I think too, Notwendy.

Yes, I have refused to stand up to my wife. Yes, I have also done the same thing with my mother. Has my mother stomped all over my boundaries over the years? OH yeah. My FoO is where I learned how NOT to have boundaries.

We had a long conversation tonight about the article. I tried to share with my wife all the things that rang true to me - about how my mother relied on me to provide the emotional support my father didn't, etc. Unfortunately, it turned into an opportunity for her to "express her hurt and anger" as to why I didn't ever pick her over my mother, and why I tried to "destroy her life" after our daughter was born, just so I could bring our daughter to my mother "on a platter" (i.e. allow my parents to meet their granddaughter).

But here's the good part - I quietly and calmly let her express her feelings. I validated what I could, and redirected what I couldn't. I used the tools. Her rage eventually subsided and things are calm now. But I never really did get the chance to work through how I felt. Sigh.

[Notwendy]

I think it is a good thing to let your wife express her feelings without you reacting or trying to change her point of view- so long as the conversation doesn't get abusive.

The "victim" perspective is strong (IMHO). I think in general, your wife is insecure and threatened by your affection for someone else- even your own mother- and with difficulty owning and managing these feelings, she looks to you to fix it. If you cut off contact with your parents, this stops the threat. But the source of her bad feelings is her own insecurity, not your relationship with your mother.

If you feel there are issues between you and your mother, then this is your situation to work on. Do you need better boundaries with her? Perhaps, but this doesn't necessarily mean you must cut contact with her to have them. It's one choice but not the only one.

Then there are your personal tasks to work on such as being able to hold on to your own ideas and boundaries. The good thing about this is that this skill can apply to all your relationships- FOO, wife, and others such as your daughter. Your wife and mother may not like the fact that you are learning boundaries, but it is an emotionally healthier way to relate to people if you have emotionally healthy boundaries- not too weak and also not too strong.

Your wife bringing up this article reminds me of a childhood memory. My BPD mother read all the pop psychology books in the era of my childhood- 60's, 70's and was constantly quoting them to make her point. She will also incorporate something she hears into her speech as fact even now. I didn't notice it as a child- we consider our parents to set the norm. I have seen it said that for a pwBPD - feelings =facts. If your wife feels threatened by your contact with your mother- it must be a fact.

I think we all tend to regress into our FOO patterns when visiting family. I have observed this with my H. It's irritating to see it- people in the FOO don't always see it, but I can see it from the outside. For me, I get stressed at the idea. It isn't easy to be around my mother, but I have also decided to not deal with this by cutting contact with her. I see it as something I need to work on. As for my H- it is his family and his family issues - not my place to tell him what to do. We tend to match our spouses in some way when it comes to FOO issues. Yours is not perfect, neither is your wife's.

However, one has to decide if dysfunction is severe enough to alienate them. Emotionally appropriate boundaries are often not in the extreme. No boundaries may be as dysfunctional as putting up a brick wall- and then oscillating between the two. The middle ground- a relationship with boundaries- saying yes, when you are at least willing to do something and no when you are not- may be the better solution.

Looking at the article you posted, it makes sense. Yes, the husband should split emotionally from his mother and form an allegiance to the wife but also look at the "tips" for  the woman to approach this with compassion. Allegiance does not mean violating your own value system. If you think it is overly harsh to cut contact with your mother, and would wish to handle this in a different way, you have the choice to do this.

[Tattered Heart]

But here's the good part - I quietly and calmly let her express her feelings. I validated what I could, and redirected what I couldn't. I used the tools. Her rage eventually subsided and things are calm now. But I never really did get the chance to work through how I felt. Sigh.

What's to stop you from working through them on your own?

Hard truths are so difficult to accept. It's really brave of you to acknowledge that your relationship with your mom has been out of balance. I mean, it's your mom. No one wants to think negative things about their mom. But you did. And now that you know, it might mean having some hard conversations with your mom too.

What issues do you think you will need to talk about with your mom?

Once you figure those things out, then you could try to share them with your wife, as usual validating her when you say them. Admitting where you've been wrong. And then laying out a plan for how you will handle things in the future with your mom. (Just a thought. You might make sure that you let your wife know you will be handling it. Just so she doesn't try to do it for you).

[DaddyBear77]

What issues do you think you will need to talk about with your mom?

This is a great question TH and something I really need to think about. This is something that I need to do one on one, though, and my wife has made it clear she will not accept me doing that. My wife has insisted that every conversation I have with my mom be done in her presence.

Soo yeah. I either do what I think is right and stand up to my wife's rage, or do what she wants and avoid it for another period of time. And here we are again at the exact same point I have found myself for 18 years.  It's no secret to anyone here that this is my weakest spot. When I'm in this position that I fall back to lying, manipulation, and sneaking around.

I started this thread thinking, hum, my wife has a point. And she does. But surrounding that point, and intertwined with that point, are a WHOLE bunch of issues stemming from the fact that she's a pwBPD and I'm a caretaker/codependent. Detangling this is going to take quite some effort.