Married 26 years (part 2)

[Learn each day]

If he quits counseling my kids and I are out of there.

Agreed the outbursts are a lot. Our counselor says she really doesn't see much of the "adult" part of him these days. She very plainly says that his reactions to the kids and I are emotional abuse.

Cycles... .We have very short cycles of "I love you I hate you" pretty much weekly. I think you are talking about the bigger overarching cycles. We are at 26 years. Things started a bit rocky then we became Christians. He really embraced it and got much better. At around 3 things started to slide downhill. Very sporadic outbursts. Mostly aimed at imagined disrespect from our oldest son. At around year 5 things had hit a pretty low point. He lost his job as a juvenile corrections officer for getting too aggressive with one of the inmates - big surprise right. Anyway it was really a blessing because he had to go to anger counseling before he was fired and it helped a bit. Afterward it really made him rely on God's providence for awhile. He was repentant and seemed to really try. There were still outbursts. It's hard sometimes for me to see cycles from then on out because it really has felt like one long ugly cycle since but I may still be to much "in it" to see. I guess after the birth or our 5th child is when there didn't seem to many much consistent up time. Yes brief uptimes (maybe a month or so) but nothing prolonged. That would have been about 16 years ago. He had a major back surgery and was on quite a lot of narcotics for a while and I blamed some of his behavior on that; he got off everything after we left though and is still acting the same... .It spiraled to a stupid outburst when I was driving and he reached over and forced our truck off the road so he could get out. He just couldn't stand to be near us another minute kind of thing. We were about 8 miles from home. He was in such a rage that the kids and I stayed away from home for about 4 hours. When we got there he had shotguns out. It turned out that he had a fear about whoever gave him a ride home - but we didn't know that. I din't really think anything was terribly wrong but seeing how terrified my kids were about it was a real eye-opener for me. My normally very laid back and funny son wouldn't leave my side. Unfortunately hubby was still so mad at us that he wouldn't speak when son asked why he had guns out which reinforced the fear. Later that night I sat on the edge of daughter's bed and talked to her. I will always remember her words. "Mom I'm scared of dad having guns" Me: "you know dad knows how to handle guns and is very careful with them" Her: "No mom. I mean when he is mad. He gets so mad so fast. I don't think he can control himself. If he was really mad I'm afraid he would just grab it and shoot. I know he would be really sorry and sad afterward but I don't think it would stop him." That night I quietly told her and son to pack a bag and be ready to leave.

We stayed gone 6 months and have been back for a year.

I love that you give your wife credit for trying. I feel my spouse has decided that he has tried enough and now everything is back to being his family's fault that his life isn't great. He is back to saying things like "I never would have had to rage at you guys all those years if had done what you should." Now when asked if he still agrees that the things he used to do were abusive he says no. I think we're nearing the end... .

Pretty sure anyway.

LED

[formflier]

 
Thanks for sharing... .I know all to well how hard that is to go over... again... and again.

So... .rank your husbands behavior now, on a 1 to 10 scale, with 10 being the worst you have ever seen in your marriage and 1 being the best you have ever seen.

No imagining... .actually exeprienced.

I'm interested in the year you have been back compared to best and worst ever.  Was some of that year the "best ever"?

So... .an answer might look like this.  First few months was a (fill in number), then something happened and next few months was a (fill in number) and from then until today he usually is a (fill in number)


I'll talk more about how our stories are similar... .later today.  A bit out of time now. 

You "blew things up" over guns.  I "blew things up" over corporal punishment (polite way of saying she was beating kids)

FF

[formflier]

Your husbands logic fallacy.

I deserve to be able to rage at you because... .


Right?  Is there really ever a reason. 

OK... I realize it isn't rage... but I've tried to organize it in my head that unless the house is on fire... .that "tone" should never be used in my house. 

Perhaps there is a way you can take a similar value onboard.

Are there other similar "logic fallacies" that your husband uses?

FF

[Learn each day]

So... .rank your husbands behavior now, on a 1 to 10 scale, with 10 being the worst you have ever seen in your marriage and 1 being the best you have ever seen.

No doubt the last year has been better then the last 26. At least as far as raging or hitting would go. I would say there has really only been one true rage. Many "close calls" but not the one inch from your face, poking your chest with every word, spit flying sort of thing.

I'm interested in the year you have been back compared to best and worst ever.  Was some of that year the "best ever"?

So... .an answer might look like this.  First few months was a (fill in number), then something happened and next few months was a (fill in number) and from then until today he usually is a (fill in number)

Yes some of the year was some of the bet ever. You could tell he was really uncomfortable with the new dynamic in the house of no raging but so much better. Probably moments of 1. He has slowly been sinking back. Counselor says he has big side of Narcissism to go with the BPD main dish. This makes it hard to ever put the kids or my needs over his own. Example: feeling it is more important for kids to sit and watch tv with him then go to school or do schoolwork. Actually this list is to long to go over... .just know its HUGE. It is really hard for me to assign a number to what is happening now. Past example: raging was so volatile that those times always felt like a 8-10 to me. Now the screaming in your face, punching things (well still occasionally) stuff is gone but the content is still the same. I know that should seem better but in some ways it seems worse. Now he is yelling but a bit more in control when he says the same stuff. Sometimes he will even pause in the middle and say something like "and this isn't a wounded inner child thing. This is how I feel." Son as shared that it feels just as bad to him because before we could tell ourselves that he is just "on a tirade" but now you begin to see that he believes everything he says. Does this make sense?

Example: a couple of years ago he got angry while driving. The usual complaints. Kicked me out of the car in the middle of nowhere. Ninty-three degrees out and I'm walking. He circles back around saying "you're too out of shape to walk and I don't want to be responsible for killing you." Drives me home but wont let me out of the car. Screams, punches steering wheel repeatedly. "It's over. I'm sick of you... .blah, blah." Fast forward to now. Sitting in Subway alone to talk about things because he really needs to. He is saying almost word for word what he has said before but calmer. Not calm - but calmer. He is seriously done. If I don't change (start proving my love) then he's leaving. Also some very ugly sexual stuff that I apparently "don't love him enough" to do he now calls me frigid; although we still have plenty of sex. Actually we are VERY sexually compatible - I have just been holding a boundary that I wont let him be ugly to me all night then perform. BTW: by leaving he means the kids and I leaving because in his mind everything is his. So as far as raging I would say only a 7 but hurt value for ALL of us is still a 10. I hope that makes sense.


You "blew things up" over guns.  I "blew things up" over corporal punishment (polite way of saying she was beating kids)

I should have blown things up a long time ago over corporal punishment! I have been slowly learning (with counseling) to forgive myself for that and try to concentrate on now. It is horrifying to listen to one of your children talk to a counselor and realize all the damage that has been done. This is one of the reasons I have no trouble standing up for my kids now. I know he feels it so is always fearful that he will step over the line with them. I think it is also why he thinks they are conniving to get him to lose his temper - because he knows I wont stand for him ever touching them in anger.

[Learn each day]

Your husbands logic fallacy.

I deserve to be able to rage at you because... .


Right?  Is there really ever a reason. 

OK... I realize it isn't rage... but I've tried to organize it in my head that unless the house is on fire... .that "tone" should never be used in my house. 

Perhaps there is a way you can take a similar value onboard.

It is hard for him to understand what "tone" I mean. Since he isn't screaming anymore I will ask him not to discipline the kids in anger. I will ask him if we can pause a conversation until we are both better equipped. He will swear up and down that he isn't angry. The times I have gone to the mat are over things like telling child he wishes they were never born. He was completely confused that I ended that conversation but did allow me to. I have said things like "I will never be ok with you threatening to hit our children, telling them you wish they were never born, you can't wait to see them get their ass kicked or any other such hateful talk" He usually denies he said whatever it was he said later. Our counselor says he seems to never remember things he says in a rage but he isn't "raging" in the traditional sense of the word, while doing it now.

Are there other similar "logic fallacies" that your husband uses?

Logic fallacies?... .I have to admit I quite literally LOLed when I read that. I have had SO many people circle back to me after a conversation with hubby with comments like "does he really believe that" or "does he say the same thing at home?" or "he was just joking right?"
A few:
-Thinking kids should take it upon themselves to see a potential remodel project and start working on it.
-It is mine or the kids' responsibility to remind him of things he needs to get done.
-He should get to have whatever he wants because he makes "good money"
-The Illuminati has spy stuff hidden in all of our appliances. (No joke)
-The Illuminati has a secret plan to kill most of the population of the earth - a culling - I think he calls it.
-When one of the kids is getting recognized by someone else in a positive way he feels that the person should recognize him and give him credit for it.
There are really to many to mention here. As you can see many revolve around him being responsible for himself. Some are complete paranoia really - is that the same as a logic fallacy?

[formflier]

 
OK... .as I suspected.  We continue to get more and more similar.

Paranoia is "central" to my wife, although... oddly enough, removing invalidation from our r/s has pretty much tamped it down.

It's still there... .

Whew... .ok.  Tell me about the qualifications of your counselors.  PhD?  Masters?

I'm assuming you have done reading on the clinical success rates for paranoia.  Not pretty.  Doesn't mean loose hope... but not pretty.

The general reason is that paranoids believe the helpers are "after them"... .

OK...

How often do you have frank conversations with your hubby and counselors... all in same room.

So... .frank conversation would be "We all agree even the suggestion of a kid no existing... is no good.  Therefore... .if even a hint of that arises... .we agree to do xyz to protect the children we love"

Ever do stuff like that?

I'll hush and think for a bit.

FF

[Learn each day]

Yes. The paranoia runs fairly deep. No aluminum foil hats or anything though. Haha.

He used to really get mad at me if I wouldn't participate in his paronioa with him. Would try to demand I listen to at least a couple of hours of Alex Jones with him. One of the few things from the past that I was firm about not doing. It was more of a practical thing though as I simply didn't have the time to do it. Would really make him mad and produced many statestments like... ."We're all ignorant. Someday when it all happens you will all come running to me for protection and know I was right. They want us all dead." He still talks about it but doesn't push me being involved in it. Totally understand your statement about helpers! Every once in awhile he will say something off the wall like "I think you may really just be spying on me." When I look sideways at him he will laugh like he is joking but I think a small part of him entertains that idea.

Embarrassed to say that I haven't really studied paranoia much. All the other personality problems seemed much more like an immediate threat. I have to admit that I have pretty much not given it much thought. It has always seemed like the weirdest but least threatening problem. Can be a bit embarrassing sometimes which I let go as a "shame on my pride" thing.

I'm not exactly sure of our counselor's qualifications. Seems pretty irresponsible doesn't it? I know she has mentioned a masters degree. I picked her for myself and my daughter. I really wanted a female (daughter said she would be more comfortable) and someone who was a strong Christian. She spoke with me for a long time on the phone before our first visit. It was when we left home last year. Hubby was so desperate to get us back that he decided to go to the same one. That has been really helpful to me since she hears all of our "stories" if that makes sense. She hasn't really helped us lay down any laws but has really helped me get more firm and create boundaries. She is the one that had me read Boundaries and Stop Walking on Eggshells. She is pretty open with me in private about what she thinks hubby's progress is or isn't. Maybe he needs to visit someone else. She is way too professional to say it but I can tell she thinks I should leave again. She says he "goes after me" way to frequently. That she rarely see any adult responses from him in our joint or his private sessions. With all 3 of us is when I feel the most comfortable make firm boundaries. I have been working on that during our joint sessions and he hates it. He usually leaves mad.

I have to say I really don't worry about him getting mad anymore. I have really come to the conclusion that he is responsible for his own feelings. I will try to use the tools I have learned but if he is still mad beyond that I don't really care. I honestly don't really think I love him anymore. It's hard to say. I know I would mourn the good times we shared as a family but there have been so many other times that should have been joyful that were ruined by his behavior.

I will definitely lay another firm boundary in counseling of leaving the home for awhile when he is spewing abuse at the kids. Also need to work on that for me as well but maybe one boundary at a time.

A couple of questions for you that I am confused about. You are welcome to tell me that it is none of my business.

-Is your wife ever physical with your kids now?
-If your talks with your kids are like "when a person acts this way its best to do xyz" aren't your kids taking responsibility for your wife's feelings? I know walking away isn't really taking responsibility but could feel that way to a child.
-Doesn't give them the impression that it is ok for others (friends, teachers, relatives, etc) to treat them like that as long as they walk away? How have you taught them that some relationships are not good for them? Just wondering how you have successfully counteracted the wrong messages your wife has inadvertently sent.

LED

[formflier]

-Is your wife ever physical with your kids now?

No.  She will from time to time say things like "so and so needs a good spanking".  I don't engage or respond.  "She used to say I would do xyz... but I know he would turn me in again... ."  Same thing... no response needed.

Luckily... .this hasn't been an issue for a while. 

My wife has been "disobedient" in the Christian sense.  So... .twice this summer my kids "ended up" at my SILs house, when my wife and I both agreed (gave our word) they would be somewhere else.  Once my 6th grader was left there alone (no mommy... just SIL).  I found out and drove over and picked her up.  My wife and her entire family flipped out.

Big picture:  Christian man and woman agree on plans for kids.  Pray over it... all that.  Christian man goes and does his part.  Christian woman decides to change plan... hide that from hubby and "demand" he be happy about it... .and claim it is Biblical.  Of course... .when asked for the verse... .she can't say.

That's the kinda thing in my house.  Twice this summer... it sucks... .but I can live with it... especially compared to before.  Plus... .with psychologist help, I responded appropriately and boxed her "logic" in... .

So... .she either has to "obey" me and be in good graces with her church women... .or be openly disobedient to me and the Bible... .and explain to "normal" Christian women why it is she gets to be in charge of her kids spiritual development... and not the husband.

I will admit that many times I have to make sure I don't smile as she attempts to figure it out... .

-If your talks with your kids are like "when a person acts this way its best to do xyz" aren't your kids taking responsibility for your wife's feelings? I know walking away isn't really taking responsibility but could feel that way to a child.

No... .I see where you are going. I just look at it differently.

Try this on for size.  I teach my kids to steward themselves.  I focus heavily on proverbs 4:23.  Crystal clear... .the person in charge of guarding your heart is you.  Sure... perhaps "confront" the other person once... .after that... .leave it to Holy Spirit and guard your heart.

-Doesn't give them the impression that it is ok for others (friends, teachers, relatives, etc) to treat them like that as long as they walk away? How have you taught them that some relationships are not good for them? Just wondering how you have successfully counteracted the wrong messages your wife has inadvertently sent.

I teach them the difference in judging a relationship being good and bad for them (4:23) versus trying to control another person.  That other person can say they shouldn't exist all day long... .kids aren't in control of that.  Sure... confront... once... .then leave.  After that... ."oh this again"... .leave.

Some relationships the kids have more choices. Some they are stuck with.  So... a teacher... .they would have to come to us... or complain to higher authority.  A friend... .they get to choose to continue or not.

I really try to "flip it".  I want my kids to edify others... .vice judge others.  So... if someone is doing something that is getting in the way of edification and spreading grace.  No need to figure it all out... .just move along.

My wife likes to get into the details of judging others... .    I send the opposite message.

FF

[Learn each day]

Good answers. I noticed some sad choices with my daughter with other relationships. A cousin/friend that would treat her like crap then expect her to want to spend loads of time with her. Honestly this cousin is from hubby's side and is SO wounded. Daughter would be SO sad about a brother's careless comment. Would go way to far to accommodate others' needs. It took a lot of work and counseling to have her realize she is allowed to take care of herself. It turns out that the "don't judge others" idea came through loud and clear while the "shake the dust" message was lost to her for a long time. She has now learned to be more firm with the cousin about how she expects to be treated. Cousin doesn't like it but oh well. My kids are very "servant" minded. It usually makes hubby mad as any time spent loving or serving someone else he sees as love or service he isn't getting. Which is super weird as he is also a Christian. The streak of narcissism is petty wide.

I LOVE proverbs 4:23! It is an often quoted verse with my kids. Honestly I love all of Proverbs... .and James❤️ Many of my favorite verses are in these.

Another similarity - my hubby is also very judgmental!

[formflier]

OK... .is the counselor a "christian counselor"?  Biblical?

Does she coordinate with your church?

Any talk of a male accountability partner?

Has your hubby ever done counseling with a male pastor?

Ever done any accountability with male at church?

FF

[formflier]

LED,

I think i have a much clearer picture of the dynamic here. 

Try to stay big picture with me. 

The impact of fathers and to a lesser extent, male role models is massive.  I learn most of my fathering skills from my Dad and Grandfather.  Good stock.  Multi-generational farmers.

Well, if you are a man and you have a desire to be a better Dad, Husband... etc etc... .you need a good role model. 

Some men have issues taking "counsel" from women.  I would guess your hubby is one of them.  I'm not suggesting changing counselors.  But I think it is critical to "moving this along" that he has a male that he respects... .or "fears" (in a good way) to be part of this.

Am I right in sensing that you were hopeful about getting back together, but after a year or so things seem to have stagnated.  Perhaps in some areas he is "testing the waters" to backslide. 

If I have you figured out correctly... .it won't take much backsliding for you to punt.  I doubt you will wait for another "gun incident".

Anyway... I'll stop there.  Has this idea come up before?  I would want make sure it is coordinated with your current situation.

Somehow, we need to get momentum going in the right direction.  Where is the momentum going right now?

FF

[Learn each day]

Yes she is a Christian Counselor. Uses a lot of scripture when trying to reach the heart. She is not from our church. Ours is a smallish church about 200/300 and doesn't have a counselor or a mentor ship type of program. Our current pastor is younger then we are and hubby really has a hang up about taking any sort of counsel from someone younger. It has created issues for him at work as well. In the past he really loved the role of "I have the perfect family and don't need advice form anyone." We have always had well behaved kids and he relishes letting others feel that it is his strong leadership/discipline that brought that about. When we left he had to face up to many knowing that he goes WAY overboard on the discipline side. It is such a strange thing. On one hand he has no filters so will share almost anything with anyone but still relishes his image. I don't think he usually realizes the real image he leaves. Our youth minister and he have been good friends in the past but it is strained off and on. YM knows how hubby acts and loves my kids so has struggles with how to put these 2 things together. YM is wonderful with kids but may not really be able to call hubby on the carpet for bad behavior. The preacher we used to have is really the person hubby respects most in the world. Unfortunately his health isn't very good and I'm not sure he could really deal with much else right now.

The night we left hubby called 2 of our elders and our oldest son to come talk with him. He admitted most of his wrong behavior. I don't think they were very surprised. Hubby went on about how it is unbiblical for me to leave. One elder said (quoted to me by oldest son) "Well xxxx, where I come from we would call that abuse. If I acted that way to (his wife) she would have booted me way quicker then that." Other elder is a much more thoughtful guy. Has a real heart for God. Hubby thinks he looks down on him though. I don't think hubby would allow himself to take advice from anyone we know. It would probably have to be a Christian male counselor.

The atmosphere isn't bad right now. After his Monday night "conversation" about what all I need to change and him threatening to leave - then the morning threats - things cooled back down as they usually do. He works and overnight shift so we only sleep together 3 nights/week. It is always the weekend when things fall apart. Pretty much every weekend to be exact.

Oh you definitely have me figured out... .I'm ready to punt.

I never whine about what's "fair". I don't allow it in my kids and I certainly don't do it myself. On the other hand it is very hard to swallow him telling me that this is all my fault and that I need to change. I know, I know, standard BPD behavior but I'm just so sick of it. Did I feel hopeful? Certainly. Thats why we went back home. Looking back now though I would say I was much closer to just foolish. He has changed some of his behavior but the basic faulty thinking is still there. How can there be much hope without the mind change? I have come to discover that there is really very little I like about him anymore. Even the non BPD stuff which I know is terribly unkind. I know I can live without him. I would definitely miss sex. Haha! I know my kids would be fine without him too. My oldest son had a great relationship with the elder I said had a real servant heart. My middle and youngest sons really attached to our YM. Middle son was even the youth minister intern last summer. My 23 y/o son has many men at church he really cares about but maybe not as deep a relationship as the others. My middle son has taken so much from his dad that he gets really angry at how he now sees him treat his younger siblings. He says I need to "tell him to take a flying leap." The oldest feels the same just isn't as adamant about it. Youngest 2 would love to leave but still want to see him. Only the 23 y/o son thinks it a sin to leave. He still wants to hang on to the image of a great Godly family. Ironically he was punched in the face by his dad and was fine with him the next hour.

Sorry went on a bit long there. To sum all that up I am definitely close to leaving.

[formflier]

Sorry went on a bit long there. To sum all that up I am definitely close to leaving.

OK... .so... .have you read "love must be tough" by Dobson?

https://www.amazon.com/Love-Must-Be-Tough-Marriages/dp/141431745X

Christian perspective... talks a lot about respect.  Respect for yourself, others... respect for the choices of others that you don't agree with.

Talks about what guys find attractive... it can be a bit counter-intuitive.


Second thought.

Since you are close to leaving again... and perhaps finally... .why not take some stands and see what happens?

Sort of like this.

1.  This is the relationship I can offer you.
2.  If this is not ok with you, I'll respect your decision and I'm sure we'll be sad and then move forward as a different kind of family.

Or change 1 to say... this is the type of home I will live in.  If you don't have the skills to provide that, I'm willing to give you time to gain those skills.

Remember, don't blame him... it's skills.  Everyone lacks skills and can get better.  It's when they don't want to get new skills... that there is an issue.

Probably best to wait and see if you have read the book.

Big picture FF judgment:  I think he needs a male involved in his life BEFORE you start taking a stand.  Or perhaps bring up the idea.  "Hubby, for me to remain working on a Christian marriage, I need to see a male christian mentor that our pastor and elders approve of in your life.  I'll be getting a female mentor.  Is two weeks enough time for you?"

Last question:  If the current "trajectory" continues for a few more months, what is the result?


FF

[Learn each day]

Yes I have read the Dobson book. It was good but only on certain levels. I have also read the Boundaries book. Dobson seems to focus on people who are begging spouse to come back and teaching about setting boundaries and letting spouse choose for himself if he wants that type of relationship or not. That's great and everything but we are already there. I have already been using the boundaries and that is why there is so much "push back" right now. He hates these boundaries. In his mind the boundaries mean that I don't love him enough. The boundaries with his behavior with the kids - in his mind - means I love them more then him. It has been a slow cycle since we have been back. Great at first, then some bad behavior and small boundaries, then some really bad behavior and tougher boundaries. Now I have said point blank "I will never tolerate you telling kid blah blah" "I wont feel sexy after blah blah" "You are never allowed to block me from leaving" (thats a new one) etc. etc.

I can suggest the mentor but I have my doubts about it working. "You always think I'm wrong." It is one of his biggest claims. If I express a different opinion about ANYTHING that is different then his it is hugely triggering for him. His most often used words lately are "I'm sick of being wrong all the time" It may be the dumbest topic in the world. I try to explain that a different opinion is just that - a different opinion. Maybe I like a different type of music better. It doesn't mean I'm saying your choice is wrong - just different then mine. I fear that his opinion of whoever mentors him would collapse pretty quickly. There is also his abandonment issue that would look like... ."she thinks he's better then me."

At this point its worth a try though.

Remember, don't blame him... it's skills.  Everyone lacks skills and can get better.  It's when they don't want to get new skills... that there is an issue.

I think it is a heart issue. Maybe a mindset. Skills? I'm not sure how skills alone can bring about permanent change without the heart or mindset changing. He can get a great set of skills to use but if the faulty thinking or selfish heart are still there then it is only a matter of time before they erupt again. Matthew 12:33-34
Eventually what is in the heart will always come out.

[Learn each day]

Honestly at this point I have just been holding true to what I know is right - the boundaries - and letting the chips fall where they may. I guess I AM doing the Dobson thing and lately he is choosing what he wants. He says its not this type of family and thats fine with me. Two days later he wants this family.

I have been working really hard lately at believing what he says. Let me put this way. He says you can't drive my car anymore and I don't drive his car anymore. Most of what he says in anger is empty. I have been making it come true. "I don't want you to be able to get to my money." Me "That's a good idea. You should open your own account." I kept gently reminding him to do this until he finally did. Him "I want your name off such and such account" Now I am going Tuesday to take my name off of that account. "I can do such and such myself" I now let him. I am believing what he says. It is new for him. Monday night when he said either I change or he is gone I said "Well you have certainly given my plenty to think about." HIm "Is that it?" Me "yes". Next morning as he is yelling about not having sex the night before I calmly say "last night you described in detail why you will divorce me if I don't change. I will never feel like fooling around after something like that." He is now responsible for what he says, his feelings and his actions. The ball is in his court. If he keeps talking about me changing or else... .he will soon find what the or else is.

If the current trajectory continues for the next 2 months then it will end up in divorce.

[Learn each day]

Another all-nighter

[formflier]

Another all-nighter

   

We are ready to listen... .whenver you are ready to type.

Hang in there.

FF

[Learn each day]

 I'm not sure how coherent I can be right now anyway. I got five hours of sleep Saturday night and haven't slept since.  It really isn't any new argument. Just more of the same stuff. Him acting like a little child wanting me to prove that I  Love him. Him wanting to be the center of the universe him not wanting to respect boundaries about emotional abuse  of myself or our children. Nothing new here... .maybe just my measure of exhaustion.

 By 10 o'clock this morning when he asked me if I was going to leave him I said yes. That's when he decided that he could try and stay within the boundaries.  My boundaries are simple.
1  don't touch me in anger
2  no more raging
3  no more re-straining me from leaving
4  no more emotional or verbal abuse to the kids

 Pretty basic stuff. I'm just really really really tired of having to be in a position where I'm ready to leave before he will respect it.   I know God hates divorce but I'm certain he also hates abuse. I know he loves people more than institutions. I know he doesn't want my kids to continue to feel the same way he makes them feel. And I know God loves me enough to forgive me.

[formflier]

   

Where is sleep in those boundaries?

I'm not downplaying the other boundaries... they are great.  

I know from experience, if you are not sleeping, you are not thinking well and have little capacity to "deal with" BPD well.

I'll be frank... .it should be every bit as important as the other boundaries.

A pattern of denying someone sleep is physical abuse... period. 

There is a reason in POW camps they deny captives sleep or tightly control it.  I'm not suggesting your hubby has thought that through... .I'm suggesting this is a science issue.  This is a physical medical issue.  

Sure... different people tolerate lack of sleep in different ways.  The point is your hubby has chosen to not allow you to sleep.  You have to respect that choice if he chooses not to change it.

You also have to realize that you are choosing to not get the sleep you need.  This is self care issue.  Please don't hear blame from me.  Hear responsibility.

If your husband chooses to not let you sleep, what does respecting his decision look like so you can care for your body... .which God has entrusted to you to "steward"?

   

FF

[Learn each day]

FF
Very good points. Thanks.
LED

[formflier]

FF
Very good points. Thanks.
LED

Listen... .I've been there... .the up all night thing sucks... .no way around it. 

I remember how hard it is to try and think... .let alone function, without sleep.

If you need to go to hotel for a couple nights... .or send him to one... .trust me... .it is worth it.

The world will look differently after sleep.

FF

[WildernessMan]

I'm been married to my BPD wife for 21 years. We've been together 23. Things have yet to improve and she refuses to get help. So it's all up to me to continue coping with it or hit the road. Even after 23 years I'm still debating. Isn't that nuts?

[Learn each day]

FF

Yes things always look better with sleep - temporarily.

Unfortunately, since I work my opportunities to "catch up" on sleep are very limited. My kids go to a 2/day/week Christian school that I work at. I also clean houses and care for (overnights) an elderly lady. BPDh knows this but doesn't care.

Honestly his BPD actions (the things my boundaries address) have gotten somewhat better. Not as much rage. Its the narcissistic way of thinking that seems to be so stuck and I have little hope that will get any better. He totally thinks that his family (and everything for that matter) should revolve around him.

Our kids used to be at his beck and call. We have homeschooled for 22 years. It worked out pretty well until a few years ago. My last 2 began to have very little opportunity for socialization. Our youth group at church shrunk and my youngest was diagnosed with the same heart condition I have which rules out any competitive sports. All my older kids had lots of socialization. Now the last 2 go to school 2 days a week and I have been making it clear that they also need time to do the school work assigned for the other 3 days/week. BPDh hates that they go to school even though I was at a point where I couldn't educate them well enough while working. He would rather they not get as good of an education and be with him. He works around 44 hours/week. He has plenty of time to spend with them if he would use it wisely. If it was a loving desire to spend more time with them because he truly misses them or feels it would be best for them I could understand this thinking. He resents that I work at their school and get to see them more on those days. He said it would make him feel better if I spent less time with them too because that would be more fair to him. ? What? His only real interest in me or them is how well we can meet his needs.

I guess I am no longer willing to work around his selfishness.

Right now he loves me again. He's sorry and worried about me being so tired. I resent that he got to sleep 8 hours - be awake for 1 hour - then sleep another 8 1/2 hours all while I had to get up and go to work. I know this will never happen to me again because I will not let it. I am to the point where I don't even care if it means that my marriage is over. I will no longer live exhausted.

I am sticking to what I know is right/best for myself and my kids. He gets more unhappy about it as the months go by. He sees that things will NOT go back to what he wants. He has learned a bit in the last year and a half but the heart is still the same. He may not rage but the mindset that caused that rage is still there. As long as his heart is still so fulling wrapped around himself I hold out little hope for true change.
Mathew 12 34 - 35 ... .For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. A good man brings good things out of the good stored up i him... .

Eventually, no matter how he acts in the short term, it will always come back to what is in his heart. Without a change in heart how can there ever really be any hope?

[Learn each day]

WildernessMan,

I'm sorry you have been going through your r/S struggles for so long as well. I also understand the feeling of it being "nuts" as you call it. I look at myself and can't hardly believe I have done this for 26 years.

Be kind to yourself. We really aren't "crazy". This is some really hard stuff. ☹️

I'm glad you have found a place for some solid advice.

LED

[formflier]

LED,

I'm going to get nosy... .

What is your sleep schedule?  Average hours per night... day? 

I see that you work some nights and some days... .

Perhaps schedule 1 is what you want to do with no interference.

Schedule 2 is what actually happens when hubby does weird stuff

FF

[Learn each day]

LED,

I'm going to get nosy... .

What is your sleep schedule?  Average hours per night... day? 

I see that you work some nights and some days... .

Perhaps schedule 1 is what you want to do with no interference.

Schedule 2 is what actually happens when hubby does weird stuff

FF

If I had no interference I would sleep all night and get up early each morning. Its what I prefer. BPDh hates getting up in the morning. HATES it. So much so that he has always worked a 2nd or 3rd shift job. He will do anything to avoid waking in the morning to an alarm. The only time he ever worked 1st shift I got up before him, made him breakfast, set out his clothes, packed his lunch and even scraped his windows. He still culdn't stand it. I have always told him that I don't care which shift he works as long as he is kind about sleep. I have been quite the enabler in the past havn't I.

[Learn each day]

When he does his weird stuff I try a variety of technics I have learned. They work as far as rage goes but not so much on the rest. Such as saying mean and ugly things without screaming them.

He still experiences and hears things as strangely as always. Not much has changed on that front. Even in front of our counselor. She will ask me something - I will answer - she will ask BPDh what he heard me say and he will say something weird. It hasn't improved no that front.

I will be setting a new boundary around my sleep needs. I already have for the kids. He used to keep them up as well. I guess I haven't done that yet because he will experience it as rejection. It doesn't matter how you say it - he will still experience it the same.

[formflier]

Hey... .my goal with the nosy questions... .is to set up a sleep schedule based on "clear metrics". 

Also to identify times when you know, absent a real emergency, (vice "fake"  BPD emergency) when you can get restful sleep.

The times that are "danger zones" we will figure out strategy for you to be "proactive" and then have "boundaries" and then "respect his choices".

Tell me more about overnight care of some lady and your sleep.  Did I hear that wrong?

So... 7 days a week... .what time do you go to bed... time get up... do you get up with alarm or just get up?  (I usually have alarm... but get up 10-15 minutes prior.)

How many nights a week is he gone and home?  Is this same every week?

How many nights a week is your sleep "in danger"? (may be same answer as above)

FF