Married 26 years

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

How did counseling go? 

I would encourage you to have a habit of keeping your cell phone on you at all times.  It took me a couple months to get that habit... .but I've been able to keep it up for a couple years now.

Hang in there.

FF

[formflier]

How did counseling go? 

I would encourage you to have a habit of keeping your cell phone on you at all times.  It took me a couple months to get that habit... .but I've been able to keep it up for a couple years now.

Hang in there.

FF

[Learn each day]

I am working on the phone thing. I know it is something I really need to do since it seems like I can't predict the blow ups.

He ended up going to counseling by himself. He hasn't been going as often as he used to. In the past we had individual sessions and "marriage" sessions. Our counselor indicated at my last appointment that hubby hadn't been coming very often anymore. I was pretty hopeful about his appointment because he usually seems much more kind and reflective afterwards. She is really good at gently pointing him to Christ. It hasn't helped much in the last 6 months or so but hope springs eternal. She has said lately that she doesn't see him wanting any sort of help. He feels that he is fine and doesn't need to change. She shares with me that the way he acts with the kids and says to them is abuse. I am wondering if she was a bit more firm with him yesterday about that topic. She usually just tries to encourage him to reflect on what our parenting goal is and what that looks like biblically.

He came home from counseling and immediately became mad that I we were going be leaving fairly soon. Even though he knew about it.

Our nephew (his sister's son) died six years ago and yesterday was the anniversary of it. SIL likes to do some kind of rememberance of his on that day so we were all going to meet at the cemetery and release balloons. She still grieves very hard for him. It really make hubby mad that she brings him up so often. Anyway I told him that this was his decision of wether to go or not but that the kids and I were going and then I was going to drop them off at church for youth group. They go every Monday night but he always acts surprised and mad when I take them. My kids love our church and our youth group. He works a strange shift and is home from Saturday morning to Tuesday night. He feels that since he is the man of the house that we shouldn't do anything during the times that he is home.

Anyway... .
Last night ended with him telling me that if I'm not willing to change then he is through. I just keep telling him that I love him and wish that he could feel that even if I choose to take the kids somewhere. He went on for hours about my shortcomings and telling me that he is ready for a divorce. When we got home I helped him get his banking set up and direct deposit for it. Showed him how to do the bills and then went to bed. He came up shortly after. He woke up this morning mad at me because I didn't offer to have sex with him. Like I am some machine with no feelings. That part really hurts. Who am I kidding... .it all really hurts. At least he wasn't trying to be physically intimidating last night in any way... . small steps.

I probably need to start talking to an attorney. I wont have health insurance because I am self employed so need to start working on that avenue as well. I know God hates divorce but I also think that he loves my kids and me more than the institution of marriage. I know he can forgive me for this I just pray that he will still use me.

Sad

[formflier]

Hey... .my goal is to give you Christian encouragement.  We all need that from time to time.  This is your time. 

Reflect on what God is showing/teaching you... .about you.  In fact, I will pray that your heart is even more tender to the leading of the Holy Spirit.  I will also pray for you to be granted wisdom and discernment.

     

  He feels that since he is the man of the house that we shouldn't do anything during the times that he is home.

I think a "flanking maneuver" is called for here... .address this... by addressing something else.

"Hey babe... .I'm interested in your thoughts on how we can come together around our kids spiritual development on (list dates or times)."

  I would not say "when you are home".  Try to "depersonalize" this a much as possible.

 

Anyway... .
Last night ended with him telling me that if I'm not willing to change then he is through.

Please don't hear me say this is "your fault".  Please DO her me say you are RESPONSIBLE for your part in this.

I think you are invalidating him by the things you say.  He doesn't feel love... yet you tell him you love him. 

I know it's counter-intuitive... .but I would back away from saying lovey dovey things... .especially when he is worked up.

I just keep telling him that I love him and wish that he could feel that even if I choose to take the kids somewhere.

Invalidation

Also... .by suggesting he "should" or "Needs to" think something else... it is suggesting his current thoughts are bad... .or invalid... .

Well... they are... .but it doesn't mean you should say that.

He went on for hours about my shortcomings and telling me that he is ready for a divorce.

Really need to find a way to nip this... .5 minutes.  Schedule time to discuss this later... .perhaps with counselor or pastor.

  At least he wasn't trying to be physically intimidating last night in any way... . small steps.

This is a bigger thing that I think you realize.  I'm really hoping you can find a way to give positive reinforcement here.

OK... .perhaps TMI... .but how often do you have sex with him.  How often do you say yes... .versus turn him down.

I'm trying to get an idea of "half the time"... .etc etc.

I probably need to start talking to an attorney.   I know he can forgive me for this I just pray that he will still use me.

I'm 100% for being fully prepared.  It will give you confidence.

I also want to give you hope by pointing out there are lots of changes YOU can make... without your husbands agreement... .that will likely improve your relationship.

FF

[Learn each day]

Sex... .definitely his love language. Actually all physical contact. He wants my hand at church and while we're driving. He would have me sit right beside him all day and night if he could. I know to many that sounds romantic but it gets very old very fast. I try to be sweet and accommodating about it though because its a small thing and I know it means so much to him. Sex has been different lately. In the past we were very active. He has "rules of engagement" for sex. He says that I need to assume that he always wants sex therefor it is my job to initiate. There are rules for initiation too. In the past I have been a very "dutiful" wife and initiated wether I really wanted to or not. I have since let him know that when he is hurts my heart I have a hard time being intimate. We still have sex at least once a week (often more) but he says he wants out unless I have sex at least 3 times a week. For example... .last night after all the hurtful things he said and telling me he wants a divorce he apparently still expected sex. I didn't realize it of course but as soon as my alarm went off this morning he said that he was taking my name off another account since I couldn't be bothered to have sex with him last night.

To answer your question I rarely turn him down because he doesn't initiate it.

I really struggle with trying to shut my mind and heart off to have sex after he has been so unkind. He doesn't feel I have the right be that way because he feels the biblical message on this is that my body belongs to him and his to me.

[formflier]

Uggg... .double uggggg    

OK... .you and I are in a bit "of the same boat".  

My wife is "touch"... and bigtime.  It's a bit odd for me to write this... as most guys are horndogs (me too)... but my Psychologist labels my wife as "hypersexual".  So... .it's not unusual to have sex every day.  There have been times when she would "paint me black" and sleep in kids rooms or couch.  I really never worried much about it because she would come back wanting... .you know... .a piece of action.

In the past she has wanted to be able to rage/fight with me and at the snap of her fingers... .get naked and get it on.  Lucikly it's been a while since we've "been there" in our relationship

My Psychologist has also made a point emphatically to me that "most women" don't work that way.  In other words fighting and sex just don't mix, unless there is reconciliation and then "makeup sex".

"Makeup sex" used to be a big part of our stuff... .once I realize it was "fake makeup" and she had no intention of following through, I ended this practice.  It freaked her out for a while, and now this has faded away.  The biggest part of me ending it was no longer owning stuff that wasn't mine

We're obviously both very religious couples.  I also ended "asking for forgiveness" about 6 months ago.  I DO think it's good for a man to humble himself to his wife and be open about his struggles... .I think that should go both ways.  But... .what do you do when it's lopsided?

Anyway... .I didn't do so good with family leadership one day, we had a particularly bad eating out after church experience, primarily because I didn't "get ahead of it" by nipping some kid issues in the bud.  Nothing that was really a sin.  I just didn't do a good job as leader that day.  So... I asked forgiveness and prayer.

She laughed... .used the Lords name in vain and related a really weird story about what I was actually asking forgiveness for.  I Biblically "confronted" her on it once... she emphatically denied she laughed... that was her entire point... .that she never laughed.

So... .I did what was in my power... .which was "stop my part in that dance".

Back to sex and physical touch.

This has built up over a number of years... .so it's going to be very hard to undo... .but it's also possible.

Now... .what I am about to say is going to sound very manipulative... .and it is.  Nons have to be "pragmatic" about how they reach an end goal (for me a more stable household and relationship).

I think you need to use your husbands "touch thing" to your advantage.  Women do it all the time... . I fully realize this is not what you "want" to do, but I think if you can do it in a "friendly and alluring way"... .you can win a few battles.  

That... combined with firm boundaries when he crosses a line may just start retraining him some.

So... .he starts getting grumpy... .you swat him on the butt... .caress his big guns and in a friendly with a twinkle in your eye say "Now Bob... .you know that kind of talk is a turnoff to me... .I was wanting to go to bed early tonight so we'd have plenty of time... .I'm going to take a walk to cool down."

After the walk... .if he is in any way remorseful... .go with it... .rock his world (although not exactly with "his rules"... .).  There is a not so subtle message you need to start delivering in all parts of your life about who is in control, although you can see here that you are delivering that message in a "positive" way.

It's about mindset... .sex just happens to be a way you are communicating a new mindset to him.

If he ups the ante to threats... .firm boundaries.


There is a lot of other stuff to deal with here... .but I doubt it can be dealt with until the "big picture" is turned a bit and he generally understands that you are sexy when he is nice and unavailable when he is an ass.

Note... .I'm not saying he will "like" his knowledge... .but he will respect and understand it.

This is going to take leadership and hard work on your part... .likely you won't like it either.

Note:  I kinda do a similar thing in my r/s by "manipulating" the push/pull cycle.  My wife can't stand being "close" to me for weeks on end.  So, I've taken charge of this dynamic and keep her a bit at arms length with short periods of intense closeness.

Honestly... .I could understand many people saying what I'm doing is "not right" or "unethical"... .but... I say... .it works.  Perhaps someday it can change, for now I'll go with what actually works.

Thoughts?

FF

[Learn each day]

You know I think what you are suggesting would probably work. While I agree it seems manipulative it would achieve an end. Honestly I already feel manipulative in so many ways. Like some big plot. I would also describe my hubby as hyper sexual. He made sure everyone of our kids knew everything possible about sex way befor they wanted to know anything. Haha. Even just watching a tv program as a family get weird sometimes. He will make comments to the kids (not really kiids I guess at 15 & 17) like "look at her, she really wants it" or "oh she's about to get banged" or "she's a buttwhore". It is super offensive to both but especially my daughter. My son is better at saying thing like "that kind of grosses me out'.
But yes... .hypersexual in every way. EVERYTHING is sexual to him. I used to think that was just a man thing but now realize that its mostly him. I even see other men look at him really funny when he makes sexual comments. He really doesn't have many filters. Haha.

I think my struggle now is how these things make me feel about ME. I feel a bit nasty when I have to act in any sexual way as he starts to spiral. I have tried it in the past and it DOES work sometimes. Occasional he will rant about how I should be trying to make any rules about turn offs. Or accuse me of using sex as a weapon. Also, I know I can probably head something off but it takes SO much of shoving my spirit aside that it is very difficult. Does that make any sense?

I guess the bottom line is how much of this I can continue to do and still feel like an honest person to myself. I am not saying that it is wrong for you or that you aren't a good person - quite the opposite actually - but I think it is a bit different for the male role. Biologically it may be a bit easier for you to "turn it on" then me. From a religious perspective your wife can't really complain if you feel her behavior doesn't warrant sex or even firmly say that you are going for a walk.

Example: my hubby kindly read me all of Genesis 3 emphasizing verses 16 because I was leaving to do something and it made him mad. Or 1 Corinthians 7:4 if I try to hold a boundary on being hateful to me then mad that I don't initiate sex.

You see the difference? Maybe I am just tired of the "dance" and don't want to try any longer so am making excuses. It feels like I can't let go of the past anymore. All the ugly things are feeling like to much these days. When he is ugly now I have a hard time praying and asking god to keep my heart soft while thinking of visiting a divorce lawyer. It just all feels like to much.

You have definitely given me so much to think about.

BTW: Kudos on figuring out how to work through your own r/s struggles. You seem very patient and kind in your dealings. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to me. It is very giving.

[formflier]

I think you will figure it out.  I don't think you will like it.  I think the key for you is to find other ways to take care of your feelings.

Notice I said "You take care of your feelings... ."  I go for walks, have long breakfasts (like right now... ) sipping coffee and lingering over "my role" in my relationship.

I'm usually able to articulate what I want, what I have... .mourn the difference and then get on with the business of taking on the day.

Specifically to sex:  Let's take Sunday evening as an example.  Decent day overall.  I was generally nonchalant and kept her a bit at arms length.  She tried to engage me in some ranting, ___ing, "wondering aloud" with the entire family hearing.  I gently deflected and "left it on the floor"... .she grumped and wondered off.  The details really don't matter... .they really don't.

She attempted a public argument, I spoke calmly and directly to her, left the "assertion" on the floor and was public about offering to problem solve whenever she was ready. 

Basically... ."Huh?... I don't get that... .but I'm ready to help whenever... ."

So... .I'm getting ready for bed... .she comes in sniffing around for sex and... .honestly... .I would have rather slept.  I said sex sounded wonderful, but if it was up to me... .I'd rather be close to her and let the feeling build.  Said how much I enjoyed her touch... this that an another.  Basically played to her love language "touch" in "non-sexual way".

Then... .to make sure I had set the hook... .I nonchalantly asked about what she liked me to do during her orgasm.  I have a bag of tricks that I rotate through.  She basically said at that point she didn't care what I did... . 

I increased my nonchalantness... .and paid her another non-sexual compliment.  Yawned a bit.

She stomped off to the bathroom to brush her teeth... .told me I should be naked when she returned... .

       

I really just wanted to go to sleep... .but there is value for my entire family by doing what I can to provide stability.

How this works out in your relationship... .you'll work out with trial and error. 

Big picture

1.  He wants you to lead... .so do it. 
2.  Don't do it the way he wants... .offer to hand him back control... .he won't take it.
3.  Use your leadership to keep him off balance... .
4.  Change the argument.  Instead of she won't sleep with me... .it's now she won't sleep with me how I want... .she wants to much... .I don't like it when she uses the whip... .or the strap on... .

Seriously... .freak him out... .  While he is consumed with What the heck is up with my wife's sexuality, make other needed changes in how the relationship works.


Thoughts?

FF

[Learn each day]

Thought?     Uh, about a million.

[Learn each day]

Haha.

First thought? FF, you are kind of amazing. The amount of thought and effort you put into managing your family is amazing.

How do things work when her attacks are towards your children? What does that look like in your house and how do you handle that? Is she very aggressive to them? Is she able to see you love them and not be mad about it? Can you deflect her anger from them? How old are your kids and do you see any negative effects yet?

Don't mean to bee too nosy but would love to know.

I will pray and reflect. I have my own counseling today too which i love. She is very encouraging.

LED

[formflier]

OK in typical FF style focus first on the big picture.  You have lots of direct "small picture" questions below.  They are good questions, but the answer to most of them is "turning down the overall temperature in the home, results in less of xyz... .across the board"

Plus... .there is a nuance in my r/s where the attacks are usually at me and my kids are the "audience"... .vice the targets.  Yes... sometimes a kid will do something and my wife will go overboard, but it is uncommon for her to "make something up" and then attack my kids with it.

So... .Johnny comes home late and it deserves a "3" response on a 1-10 scale.  She may give a 6 or 7 if she needs to blow off steam.

Again... .that is uncommon. 

I think it is Sunflower and/or Fian that first pointed out that my wife "has a thing" about telling others "how bad I am" or "how much of a martyr" she is for putting up with me... .you know... .

"I'm this pious Christian lady and my husband is not a christian, has a harem, keeps all the money, doesn't work, doesn't this... won't let me have another dog... won't this... won't that... .left the toilet seat up... made me cook... .made me have all these kids... made me work... "

Unfortunately... .I could go on... .

How do things work when her attacks are towards your children?

So... I let most of them go.  I focus on "general temperature".  Many times and "attack" is an indication that steam needs to be blown off... .so... .don't get in the way... .when the steam is gone... .it's over. 

Note... .this assumes attack or dysregulation has started.  ":)elfection" usually comes when I see it building.

I'm trying to think here... .a time or two I've interjected in an attack and asked... ."How are we going to edify Johnny in this issue... "

Umm... .I really can't say it works.  When the attack is towards me, I've sent kids to their room... .but attacks "at" kids are so infrequent... .I don't think I've done that  when it was aimed at them.

What does that look like in your house and how do you handle that?

Again... aimed at kids is not often.  Or there is usually some fault with the kids.  I let the steam blow.  Then will follow up with "big picture" talk with kid. 

Is she very aggressive to them?

No... .but she can be loud.  So... .hollering from top floor of house to basement for a kid she doesn't even know is in the house.  Basically seems to be a "legal" way of her blowing off steam.  I've decided to ignore it for now.  Occasionally I'll ask her to give me warning so I can leave the house... as it hurts my ears. 

Usually draws eyerolling and harumphing.

Is she able to see you love them and not be mad about it?

Ummm... sometimes.   There are other times she sees the disconnect between her view and the kids view... .and I can see the internal struggle.  Usually there is some way to let off steam and it will get better.

For instance... .at church... .we do a Dad's night.  My 5th grade daughter (at the time) wrote a nice thing about me that was read aloud. 

The story, read by another lady in the church starts out "My Dad does our laundry and I love him very much... "

Forced my wife to "deal with" the view she spreads of a lazy hubby... .versus a daughters view of I do all the laundry.  Truth... I do most of it.  Laundry times 10 people is... .a lot.  Adding military structure and discipline to the "process" is interesting to me... .and as a practical matter, it's something I can do to help.

Anyway... .things like this are "uncomfortable" for my wife... .I don't "save" her from uncomfortableness.

For instance... I will remark about how nice it is to be appreciated for chores at home... .I don't direct it at her... .but I don't save her from it either.

Can you deflect her anger from them?

If I catch it in the building stage... .I can usually head it off.

"Hey... .I want to address xyz with a kid... .I'm open to your thoughts about the best way... ."  This gets the vent towards me about the kid, usually without the kid being present.  Sort of an early pressure release.

How old are your kids and do you see any negative effects yet?

22, 20, 17, 14, 11, 9, 6, 4

Yeah... .sadly... .the 6 year old was 2 ish when things were worst.   Very formative time emotionally.  6 year old is "immature" for her age.  We held her back a year so she is oldest in her class. 

I spend a large part of my time in therapy working on my skills to work with 6 year old and help her express her emotions better.

I'm now less of a fixer... more of a listener... .more "nudging"... .less direction.

All towards the goal of letting her know it's ok to feel any feeling... .and you can feel things and still move on with your day.

9 year old is youngest boy.  There are some effects there from wife letting him be "baby boy" for too long.  Plus... .it's hard to teach him to be leader... .when so many others are "over" him.  Massive middle child stuff.

I can see effects in other kids but biggest two are 6 year old girl and 9 year old boy.

Hope this helps.

FF

Oh... .last thought on "taking one for the team".  My Psychologist basically said... .would you rather stick around and get yourself a ridiculous amount of therapy... .or... .would you like to divorce and end up with therapy times 8 as adults... .

I've seen how divorce is done by watching my SIL.  Bad... .bad stuff.

[formflier]

Circling back around to the sex thing.

I would hope that you could organize your thinking along these lines... .and yes... .I realize the danger of a man suggesting how a woman should organize her thinking... .but... this is how I do it.

I don't have the sex life I want or "deserve".

The sex life I have produces good results for the rest of my family... and for me.  (less tension)

I have disappointment and "hurt feelings" about my sex life.

They are my feelings.

I am responsible for my feelings.

Therefore... .

I will find a way to care for my hurt feelings that doesn't involve my wife.

I don't want to overstate any of this.  I do usually orgasm and usually have a good time have sex with my wife.  Many times when I'm not so interested before hand... .I end up very interested and "happy" I went along with it.

There are times when my sadness about the overall state of the r/s creeps into my feelings about sex.

Big picture:  Involving my wife in solving any of that... .is unlikely to produce good results.  I've tried. 

If you go down this path of "oversexing" your hubby... .I would only do so with a firm plan and determination in place to be kind to yourself and care for your feelings.

FF

[Learn each day]

With all of our similarities I think the differences in our spouses towards our children must be pretty big. I have headed off so many things then missed warning signs and had to physically get in front of my kids so many times over their lives. I have had so many conversations about what God expects of men to try to ward off the ill effects. For the most part they have all turned out good. We have 5. The oldest was 6 when hubby and I married. He really struggled with loving God and coping with new dad. New dad taught him great manly skills though

[formflier]

 
I see the same thing... differences in the way they "go after" kids.

So... what would you do tonight if the "chewed a$$" on one of the kids?

What would the kid do?

Is this a relatively new way of responding... .or a well known pathway for all?

FF

[Learn each day]

I see the same thing... differences in the way they "go after" kids.

So... what would you do tonight if the "chewed a$$" on one of the kids?

What would the kid do?

Is this a relatively new way of responding... .or a well known pathway for all?

FF

This is what I have really been working the hardest on. There have been times that we have been able to come together over scripture where the kids are concerned. Especially if he is only irritated. If he is feeling abandoned then its not so easy.

A little background. Some of my kids have issues from having grown up with this violent, raging, jack in the box type of parenting. Some seem fine. Oldest (31) is good. 23 son year old has some real bullying tendencies and makes himself crazy trying to please hubby. He is also one of my children that hubby has punched in the face twice. 22 year old son has OCD and anxiety. He isn't debilitated by it but it definitely makes life harder. 17 y/o son is pretty well adjusted. He hates it when dad goes after me or his sister. 15 y/o daughter probably has been the worst effected. She really internalized everything. Hubby has a pretty low opinion of what women are useful for stemming from his background - father was a violent alcoholic who physicallly (badly) abused his mom and occasionally kids. Hubby seems to most angry about her growing up. Any interest they have outside of him he feels as abandonment. When we left last year she was a real mess. She had panic attacks where she couldn't breath. She prayed all the time! She was have the same 2 recurring nightmares so tried hard not to ever sleep. I didn't realize just how bad she had gotten until we were in counseling. Counselor said she had PTSD from some of the events surrounding her dad. It has took 6 months of counseling for the dreams to stop. I have actuallly never seen my two youngest any happier then when we didn't live with their father.

He acts mostly the same towards them as he did before just not so physical except once since we have been back. The problem is that he views these last 2 kids as the reason for all of his marital problems. He is really convinced that they area plotting against him. I always try to let him feel involved but can tell he feels left out and he takes it out on them in very hateful ways.

He is worse to them then he is to me. Of course he is since everything wrong with his life revolves around them. Ha. I try to be calm and deflect. I did jump in front of daughter once about a month ago and yell at him to stop because he was heading for her with his hand up.

Suggestions?

LED

[Learn each day]

I think another difference between my kids and your is that mine have felt the need to protect me and maybe yours haven't? Since you are the man they may not have felt that you were really threatened by your wife?

Thoughts?

[Learn each day]

I clearly don't have the "quote" feature figured out. And between autocorrect and my fat fingers it amazing you can figure out anything I write.

Something else I failed to mention. Much of my daughter's fears centered around worrying about me. Fearing that he would hurt me and her fearing being left without me. Through counseling she has gotten so much better but she needs to see me as strong and able to take care of myself - not as I was before. Our counselor and I have worked very hard at her understanding that she doesn't need worry for me - I will do that. She is really a sweet girl and has blossomed in therapy. Her firm belief in Christ has really helped.

[formflier]

I figured it out... .quotes still kick my butt from time to time.

Give me examples of him taking it out on them?

He said she said.  Perhaps backstory.  Basically... .if i was fly on wall... what would it look like.

How is it that the youngest two cause marital problems.  So... what would he have them do to fix it all?

Note:  I don't believe it... .but... to understand... .you have to roll with disordered thinking to see where it goes.

I predict it's projection... .he is projecting onto them.



Second: Boundaries point of view.

 Please change for you... not your daughter.  If you getting stronger has a byproduct that helps her... .ok.

Daughter needs to manage her own feelings without other people changing things to manage daughters feelings.

Now... .those are guidelines... not absolutes. 


FF

[Learn each day]

Give me examples of him taking it out on them?

How is it that the youngest two cause marital problems.  So... what would he have them do to fix it all?

I guess I am wrong to say he believes that they are the cause of all our marital problems. He blames me loving and giving them more of my time and/or attention.

Basic example would be: kids says something thoughtless and dad accuses them of purposely trying to make him mad so he will lose his temper to turn mom against him.

Basic example: give kid the last hamburger and he rants in a way so he is sure all the kids (ones home from college too) could hear him. "You always put them ahead of me. This is the whole problem with our marriage. I should be number one. Me me me." I know that last part sounds almost too childish to be true but I promise each me me me was said with a big thump of his chest.

[Learn each day]

Oops. Wasn't done.

He said/she said type of thing is: Hubby is watching game with 17 y/o son. The are relaxed and talking sports. Small disagreement over call but nothing big. Hubby starts teasing son and saying he doesn't know sports. (This son has super thick skin - he takes everything as a joke) Son says "your mom doesn't know anything about sports" It's a running joke that you take any situation and say "your mom" before it. Pretty silly but just something he does. Hubby escalates to "your mom" ... .something - I can't remember. Son says "ha. My mom made a mistake with you" totally joking but the switch was flipped. Hubby ranted for about 10 minutes. "You never wanted to come back home" "you wanted to stay at your grandma's" "you're the only reason your mom left" "I should have stopped having kids after your brother" Son finally says "wow dad, that's really hurtful" Hubby responds "well you hurt my feelings" Son says "I hope you don't mean that. You would be including Gracie in that too and she didn't even do anything" Hubby "She's just as bad as you. You both have been trying to get your mom to leave me." I can't remember word for word some but those were the highlights. My very even natured, thick skinned son was almost in tears.

He usually runs to me with his complaints about them with the kid in tow and yells at me about what he thinks of the kid who is still there.

Second: Boundaries point of view.

 Please change for you... not your daughter.  If you getting stronger has a byproduct that helps her... .ok.

Daughter needs to manage her own feelings without other people changing things to manage daughters feelings.

My changes were definitely for me! I was drowning trying to swim in all the crazy. I definitely wanted to understand what I was doing and how to change. I like me so much better now.

Daughter also learned to take care of herself. Like lots of self talk of being ok and safe. Learning to share fears and see what is real or imagined. What I AM saying is that she needed to see me be strong with her dad in order for her to feel safe and to feel that I was taking care of ME. I know she still worries for me sometimes but now it is more of a caring for my feelings kind of thing. Like Monday when she could hear her dad ranting at me through the phone as I was dropping her off she said "I love you mom. Please don't let dad be too mean to you." I assured her that I would be fine and that I can take care of myself.

[formflier]

Uggg... .double and triple uggg.

So... .yeah... .very different dynamic than in my house. 

OK... .let's be pragmatic.

So... .first rule of pragmatism.  Look at things as they are... .not as you want them to be... .

Here is my take, correct as needed.  Emotionally... .you are raising a bunch of kids, your hubby is the "youngest"... .correct?

I understand he "appears" to be a grown man... .and from time to time he may even act like and adult.  (let me ask question, how often does he have "adult" emotional responses versus childlike?  50/50?)

How often does the "I wish you didn't exist thing happen... .in any context?"

When they all come running to "Mom"... what do you do?  How does husband approach you... .is he "telling" on the kids?

I'm going to ponder this for a bit.  My gut reaction is to overemphasize the "Mom" thing and treat him like a teen as well.  Perhaps just in the short term... .to shake things up.

Big picture:  Goes along with the sex thing... .it appears that everyone in house "reacts" to Dad.  Perhaps Dad was reacting to you guys right after moving back in, but he slowly pushed and everyone else went along with it... to get back to what was "normal" or comfortable (in an odd way).

I'm not saying any of this was deliberate... .I am saying that 26 years of habits are hard to break.   Some of those changes happen slowly.  Some happen quickly. 

I'm a big fan of the "flanking maneuver" where you create a distraction over here... .and in an "oh by the way fashion" make the change you intended over there.  After a few weeks... .it becomes "normal".  Then be vigilant for a few weeks after that for attempts to undo the change... .

In the midst of the mayhem... .you pick a couple issues that you are willing to "go to the mat over"... .stand firm, be succinct and TAKE ACTION.

Now... .I hope... .I really hope we can turn down the temp on this "I wish you did not exist stuff... ." but this could be a place to take a stand.

Again... .I'm thinking outloud here... .consider all of this for a while before implementing.

Him:  Blah blah blah... .we should never have had you... .blah blah blah

You:  Walk in room with keys... .tell Johnny to get in car.  "Stop the emotional abuse... .we are going to take a break to cool down."  Leave... call 911 if blocked.  Don't "hurl" words over your shoulder... .just leave. 

Come back in couple hours and be friendly.

I would only pick this kind of "tactic" for 1 or 2 things that are a big deal. 

So... please think about the "bad" stuff your hubby does to the kids... and rank it.  Pick off a couple things at the bottom with "flanking" and be ready to address stuff at the top with firm boundaries with action and very few words.

Mindset:  For the big deal stuff... you aren't going to "talk him into or out of things... " action is likely to be the key.


There are things you need to address with your kids... privately. 

No more kidding with Dad.  Push pause on that for several months.  Perhaps I should ask a question, how often does kidding go ok... .and how often bad?

It would seem relatively easy to end that... .without your hubby knowing.  And you kid could be honest if ever confronted.

Why don't you kid with me any more?  "Because you hurt my feelings... and never apologized"  No further discussion.

Should your hubby "own it"... perhaps consider kidding again.

So... new dynamic.

"blah blah blah... stupid call... you don't know sports... blah blah blah" 

"Perhaps... .I'm getting a Coke... want me to bring you one.?"  Get up... .grab a drink... some chips... come back... no further discussion.

Last thought:  You need to chat with counselor... .and think about how you talk to kids about no more emotional abuse from Dad.  The kids can end it by walking away and not listening.  That's going to be hugely triggering... ."disobedient"... etc etc.  They likely should only try it with you around... and probably you should send them away a couple times first.

I say bring counselor into this... .because it is better for her to make this judgment and have you carry it out... .instead of it being "your idea". 

Honey... I'm just doing what the counselor says. 

If your hubby wants to go to another counselor and complain that kids walk away from him when he says they shouldn't exist... .he can try that all day long.

Said another way... ."it's nonsense... .don't put up with it"

OK... .I've been going for a bit here.  I'll check back later for some answers.

FF

[Fian]

If you do decide to leave him, it appears that violence towards you is a real risk.  I recommend planning the exit carefully.  Don't let Lala's tale happen to you.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=313497.0

[Learn each day]

If you do decide to leave him, it appears that violence towards you is a real risk.  I recommend planning the exit carefully.  Don't let Lala's tale happen to you.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=313497.0

Thank you Fian.

I agree. I have always known that the fine line that has kept him in check form hurting me is his fear of me leaving. If I was to leave I would definitely have to be super careful.

LED

[Learn each day]

So... .first rule of pragmatism.  Look at things as they are... .not as you want them to be... .

Here is my take, correct as needed.  Emotionally... .you are raising a bunch of kids, your hubby is the "youngest"... .correct?

Yes. If I had a dollar for every time someone has said this to me I would be rich today. Honestly my children have "parented" their father more then he has parented them.

I remember once he was screaming at one of our boys out side (we live i the country) "hit me! You better hit me now because I'm going to hit you!" I went running outside and told him that if he touches him again that I would call the police. Hubby then says "fine. I wont hit him first." He kept yelling "hit me" though. My (at the time that son was about 17) son very evenly and carefully says ":)ad, I am not going to hit you. I love you and my family. If this continues mom will call the police. I don't want my mom and siblings to have that over them. I don't want my family broken by you being in jail. Please, lets just let this go." It was pitiful to listen to my kid "talk him down". It did bring him down and I think hubby was truly shocked at himself even.


I understand he "appears" to be a grown man... .and from time to time he may even act like and adult.  (let me ask question, how often does he have "adult" emotional responses versus childlike?  50/50?)

Our counselor explains it as a "wounded inner child". I know it sounds odd but you can actually see a weird change come over him when he is triggered and all of his responses are like they are from an angry 10 y/o. He isn't always in the childlike state. If you are asking about emotional responses I would say at least 80% of them.[/color]


How often does the "I wish you didn't exist thing happen... .in any context?"

I would say this happens maybe once every week or 2. It isn't always directed straight at them but sometimes yelled at me so loud that he knows they can hear. With our daughter it is usually more like "you don't care about me so I don't care about you" or yelling at me - again so loud everyone can hear "I don't want anything to do with her! I refuse to support someone who doesn't care about me. She's a little witch that doesn't deserve anything."[/color]

When they all come running to "Mom"... what do you do?  How does husband approach you... .is he "telling" on the kids?

He is definitely telling on the kids. Occasionally it is a legitimate complaint but it doesn't really matter at that point. Daughter was a bit disrespectful one day - an eye roll - and here he came to tell. "You see! This is what made me rage for all these years! They disrespect me and you don't even care!" I followed with "It is appropriate to discipline disrespect. What do you think we should do?" He was so far gone that he didn't acknowledge what I said. His response was "See! You always take their side." He can be a bit diss associative.[/color]

I'm going to ponder this for a bit.  My gut reaction is to overemphasize the "Mom" thing and treat him like a teen as well.  Perhaps just in the short term... .to shake things up.

That may not be a good idea here. He REALLY doesn't see himself as a child. He used to be able to (with counseling) understand when he was reacting from a wounded inner child kind of place but not any more.[/color]

There are things you need to address with your kids... privately. 

No more kidding with Dad.  Push pause on that for several months.  Perhaps I should ask a question, how often does kidding go ok... .and how often bad?About 60% bad. We have talked about this and he has mostly quit. It is so built into this kids nature that he occasionally forgets.
[/color]
Last thought:  You need to chat with counselor... .and think about how you talk to kids about no more emotional abuse from Dad.  The kids can end it by walking away and not listening.  That's going to be hugely triggering... ."disobedient"... etc etc.  They likely should only try it with you around... and probably you should send them away a couple times first.

I say bring counselor into this... .because it is better for her to make this judgment and have you carry it out... .instead of it being "your idea". 

Honey... I'm just doing what the counselor says. 
Good idea[/color]

If your hubby wants to go to another counselor and complain that kids walk away from him when he says they shouldn't exist... .he can try that all day long.

I think he is on the verge of quitting this counselor anyway. He always says he's done with her. Sometimes though it sounds more like an empty threat .

This is some great stuff to mull over. Thanks

LED[/color]

[formflier]

If he quits counseling... .you will?

The every couple week outburst is a lot.

How long has that been going on?  Does it get better and worse in a cycle?

For instance... .I am at 22 years marriage.

At about 15 years... things got bad.  Natural disaster triggered things in my wife and I.

Built up over a couple years.  Then 3-4 bad years.  Really bad.  Last couple have gotten better.  Mostly boundaries.

My wife has tried... .I don't claim all credit.

I get the feeling yours is longer.

FF

[Tattered Heart]

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