Standing up to dad

[hemlock]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post and I'm relieved to find a community of people who are going through the same thing I am (even though it's unfortunate). I'm a 26 year old female and I'm currently separating from an ex; we share a house that we own together and we're going through the process of breaking that arrangement up too. That's partially what this is about.

My dad, while undiagnosed, almost certainly has BPD. He is the most emotionally intense person I've ever met, he twists everything into people hating him and abandoning him ("the girl at the grocery store had a look on her face again today, I don't know what her problem is with me" or "everything about you changed when you started dating so-and-so, you ditched me as often as you could to hang out with him. You and I had a solid relationship before then". My mother moved out of state for work 7 years ago and he views it as the ultimate abandonment, even though she sends him money every month and tries to talk to him every day, but he doesn't answer the phone.

He and I were very close when I was growing up. He stayed home and raised my brother and me and he was always a very loving and supportive father, and he encouraged everything I ever had an interest in. The only thing was that he hated, hated me dating - he found problems with guys I was interested in before I even went on dates with them, certainly without meeting them, to the point where he once threw a chair into a wall hard enough to break the drywall when I told him I was going hiking with a male friend of mine.

With the ex I mentioned previously, I tried to keep it hidden as long as possible that I was seeing him. I met him in college and to see him I'd say I went to "study groups," which my dad resented because I was never home (according to him). The resentment built as my ex and I got more serious. After we'd been dating a little over a year, I graduated and got a job at a city 2.5 hours away from home, and told dad I was moving in with the ex. This culminated in me being called a whore, told I didn't have a father anymore because he was disowning me, and that his whole life raising me had been a waste. The stress was so terrible that I immediately developed full-body hives that didn't go away for three months.

Fast forward a few years, dad accepted the relationship with a great deal of reluctance and stayed at arm's length. It was because of this that I stayed in a bad relationship longer than I should have (he shared many parallels with my dad, actually). At the beginning of the year I ended the relationship, and my dad was thrilled. He immediately began planning his next moves, as I knew he would.

I bought the house with my ex, and now dad is saying that his plan all along was to move in with me so that I could help him with my brother, who is a couple years younger than me and autistic, but he could never do it because I lived with the ex. Now, I'm faced with losing the house, and dad is pushing me to spend money that my mom and I don't have to fight this in court, which is almost certainly going to end with me losing the house anyway. My ex is offering me a very reasonable sum of money to sell to him, and I'm thinking of taking it just to save myself financially. Dad is furious about this, saying I won't find anything comparable, and saying that I need to fight to keep it so that he can move in with me "because he needs help too." I have no idea what he thinks he needs help with. He doesn't work and my brother, in all honesty, isn't hard to take care of. I do think he's lonely because he's lost all of his friends, he doesn't have any other family in the area, and I'd like to spend time with him, but more than 80% of the time he just talks about how much he hates my mom or how I've done xyz to him and kept him from getting his life back on track. Sorry, that's not how I want to spend my weekends, much less every night.

I should note that he spent part of his inheritance from his own mother on helping me buy the house, paying for inspections, etc. At the time I thought it was just a gift and he was helping me out, but now that he's trying to twist my arm with this and say that he's got an interest in the house, I see it for what it is.

So, the meat of the problem: how do I tell him I don't want him moving in with me without making things worse than they need to be? I'm already expecting the top of his head to blow off, but I'd like to maintain a healthy relationship with him where I am independent and he accepts that. How do I word things?

Thanks in advance everyone!

[Turkish]

Since your mom left so long ago,  do you feel that you were a replacement spouse,  at least emotionally?

[hemlock]

Since your mom left so long ago,  do you feel that you were a replacement spouse,  at least emotionally?

I definitely do. I think I was even before she left, actually. I've been reading a lot about emotional incest lately and it all seems very familiar.

[No-One]

Hi Hemlock:
Sorry to hear about your situation.  I think you are right in thinking it's not in your best interest to live with your dad again, or him with you.  It would be much harder for you to get away.  You can't be responsible for your dad's happiness.  You know that you would be miserable living in the same household again. 

Dad is furious about this, saying I won't find anything comparable, and saying that I need to fight to keep it so that he can move in with me "because he needs help too." I have no idea what he thinks he needs help with. He doesn't work and my brother, in all honesty, isn't hard to take care of. I do think he's lonely because he's lost all of his friends, he doesn't have any other family in the area 

Can your autistic brother be left alone?  If so, for how long?  Even though your father doesn't work, he may be burned out from care giving, even if your bother seems easy to take care of.  You say your mom moved out of state 7 years ago, for work.  I can see how your dad would view that as abandonment.  How often does she come back to visit your dad and brother? 

Perhaps you could prompt your dad to get a hobby, join a church, volunteer, etc.  It would likely be good for him to get out and meet new people and interact. Would your dad be receptive to some counseling?

I should note that he spent part of his inheritance from his own mother on helping me buy the house, paying for inspections, etc. At the time I thought it was just a gift and he was helping me out, but now that he's trying to twist my arm with this and say that he's got an interest in the house, I see it for what it is. 

If you agree to have your co-investor buy out your portion of the house, you could pay your dad back the money he gave you.  That might stop further mention of the money he gave/loaned to your.

Would you be financially able to buy out your co-investor?  Going to court gets expensive and the outcome would likely be to force the sale of the house.  You might want to get a formal appraisal for the home, to validate that the offer to buy you out is fair.

how do I tell him I don't want him moving in with me without making things worse than they need to be? I'm already expecting the top of his head to blow off, but I'd like to maintain a healthy relationship with him where I am independent and he accepts that. How do I word things?

You might want to offer some validation about him possibly being overwhelmed with care taking your brother.  Perhaps ask some questions and offer a listening ear.  Try and think how you might feel if you were the one living alone with your brother.  He may seem easy to take care of, but what are the responsibilities involved with his level of autism (I believe it can vary a lot).  If you and your brother lived alone and you were your bother's sole caretaker, how would that affect your social life?

Just throwing out some thoughts.  Gaining insight into your dad's frustrations and validating his feelings could be helpful. (You don't have to agree with his feelings to validate how he might feel.  You just need to acknowledge his feelings)  One communication skill, SET, could be something to try.  It stand for Support, Empathy and Truth.  Let him know in what ways you can support him and then offer empathy for his situation.  You truth can be that you need to remain independent and can't live with him (or have him move in with you). 

Perhaps you can draft a possible SET response.  What do you think?

[Turkish]

Hi hemlock,

The SET tool that No-One mentioned is demonstrated here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

And there is a workshop on SET at the bottom "Read More," it's a valuable skill to have for anybody,  really.

It might be necessary to go deeper with your dad,  as he's lived your whole life doing things one way in order to cope.  Click on the quote link for the whole workshop.  Let us know if it makes sense in your situation to try. 

After wandering in the FOG for a longer time we have lost the natural instincts and ability to ask for something. Fear is controlling our thinking. Our partner is super sensitive and tends to over-react. We get ever more careful, stopping to ask for things needed in our or our relationship's interest. Resentment breeds. Resentment is sensed. Communication grinds to a halt. How do we get back to normal? A big step is start asking again for what is needed and this is where D.E.A.R.M.A.N can help us.

D.E.A.R.M.A.N. - Marsha Linehan, MD published the DEARMAN in 1993 as part of her DBT training manual.
<br/>:)= Describe the current situation. Tell the person exactly what you are reacting to. Stick to the facts.

E= Express your feelings and opinions about the situation. Assume that others cannot read your mind. Don’t expect others to know how hard it is for you to ask directly for what you want.

A= Assert yourself by asking for what you want or saying no clearly. Assume that others cannot read your mind. Don’t expect others to know how hard it is for you to ask directly for what you want.

R= Reinforce the reward to the person ahead of time. Tell the person the positive effects of getting what you want or need. Help the person feel good ahead of time for doing what you want.

M= Mindfully keep your focus on your objectives. Maintain your position. Don’t be distracted.

A= Appear Confident. Use a confident voice tone and physical manner; make good eye contact. No stammering, whispering, staring at the floor, retreating, saying “I’m not sure,” etc.

N= Negotiate by being willing to give to get. Offer and ask for alternative solutions to the problem. What am I willing to “settle for” or “give up” in order to gain what I want in the situation?


<br/>:).E.A.R.M.A.N. is used when you have an objective, you want something specific, such as to get more sleep, to have help with the chores, to affect a change or to say NO to a request. You want the other person to come away feeling good about you and not full of resentment. This preserves the relationship. You also want to protect or even enhance your self respect.



Have you practiced DEARMAN and in what situation and how did it go? Do you have something you want to happen and you wonder whether this is a case of DEARMAN? Are you confused when to use S.E.T., DEARMAN or Boundaries? There is certainly a lot you would like to have, happen or changed... .

[Panda39]

Hi Hemlock,

No however you say it... .a blunt "no" or using SET or being a gentle as you can be,  the answer is the same.  He is going to respond how he is going to respond.  I know you care about your dad and don't want to hurt his feelings but the thing is, his feelings are his and you are not responsible for them he is.

He is using FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt) or emotional blackmail regarding your inheritance.  It was not left to him and then given to you your grandmother left it to you.  Even if it was left to him and he gave it to you that is a gift and gifts don't have strings attached.

More on FOG... .
https://bpdfamily.com/content/emotional-blackmail-fear-obligation-and-guilt-fog
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

Panda39

[Notwendy]

So, the meat of the problem: how do I tell him I don't want him moving in with me without making things worse than they need to be? I'm already expecting the top of his head to blow off, but I'd like to maintain a healthy relationship with him where I am independent and he accepts that. How do I word things?


It is sad that we want a good relationship with our parents, but their own disorder makes it difficult. Sometimes it comes down to a difficult choice- help me, or be enmeshed with them.

I faced some similar choices with my parents. One was to "behave" the way my BPD mother wanted me to, or lose my father's approval. However, their idea of "behaving" was to basically follow her wishes no matter what they were. One of them was- she wanted my children, not to be a grandma to them, but to enlist them as her emotional caretakers. I was quite willing- and even encouraged- my parents to have a relationship with them as grandparents, but as my children got older, my mother started to enlist them as confidants ( share TMI), badmouth me to them "our little secret"  and not respect their boundaries in a similar way she did with me at that age.

Like you, I was also stressed out with the situation. I really felt it was a choice: my sanity, my children, vs my parents being happy with me. I tried to make my father understand. Surely, he cared about my children's welfare, he saw how my mother treated her children. I expected him to understand. Nope.

I also got the "I don't have a daughter" from them. They have a daughter. What they don't  have was the idea of a daughter who was merely an extension of my parents and did what they wanted me to do, even if it was not in the best interest of my children.

I agree with the advice about SET, but your father is who he is and wants what he wants. IMHO, the pwBPD sees themselves as a victim on the Karpan Triangle and we can not change that.

I can rewrite your wish to what was more real for me:

So, the meat of the problem: how do I tell him I don't want him moving in with me?

Using SET, you tell him as clearly and kindly as you can. Do not use the term "you". Use only "I" statements. Do not JADE. Keep it simple.

":)addy I love you but I wish to live on my own"
Not: "I don't want to live with you"

Without making things worse

You can't control this. Things will likely get worse - at least for a while- but that is his choice. He will likely take victim mode. Don't react to this- stay your ground. Stay calm and keep the door open. Understand that what he says to you is more about him than you, even if he says hurtful things. It is him projecting his anger at not getting what he wants.

When he yells " I don't have a daughter" say " Daddy, I  am here if you wish to contact me" and let him be.



I'm already expecting the top of his head to blow off,  Yup- that's how he responds to things but it isn't about you, it's who he is.

but I'd like to maintain a healthy relationship with him If he has a disorder, he is not capable of a healthy relationship but you can gain better relationship skills that will help you relate to him and not react to his emotions.


Where I am independent and he accepts that.

You need to fulfill your wish for an independent life. You can not make him accept that. All you can do is hold your ground- do it. He will have no choice but to accept that or not have contact with you, but I am betting that he will accept it in time if you hold your ground.


As to being independent, I have found that any money from parents comes with strings attached and control. To be independent from them, I can not accept even a penny. I perceive offers of kindness from my mother as a Trojan Horse. If I were you, I would consider paying your father back in time,when you can to help establish yourself as fully independent of him.

My father is deceased now, but even as a teen I began working as soon as I could so I didn't have to ask him for spending money.

[hemlock]

Thank you to everyone for the support and advice!

The thing about the money is that I've already paid my dad back. I bring this up repeatedly and it's like he doesn't even hear me when I say it, even though I have proof of the check being written, endorsed by him and clearing the bank. He no longer has a financial stake in this, but he continues to bring it up as justification for wanting to move in. But you're right - "gifts" have strings attached, and I no longer accept them.

The problem with the house and my ex, which is an entirely separate monster by itself, is that he's got his own personality disorder (Narcissistic Personality Disorder, not BPD), and he is punishing me for breaking up with him using the house. He refuses to sell to a third party, he refuses to buy my interest from me (or sell to me his interest), and nearly a year after the breakup is insisting that we could be together if I'd just "try harder" because he knows that deep down I love him. I don't. Unfortunately, the lawsuit was my last resort, since he is clinging to me in every way imaginable and knows that the house is the best leverage he has against me.

The SET workshop sounds very helpful, thank you for suggesting it. I'll get started on it this evening when I get off of work.

As for my brother, and getting my dad out of the house, my mom and I have tried desperately to make things better for him in this regard. My brother is incapable of being independent, but if he drew Social Security it would pay for someone to sit with him while dad went out and had a life. Dad refuses to draw SS for my brother, yet says we don't have the money to pay a sitter (true). Mom has offered to take care of him because she has someone who could stay with him during the day while she works, dad refuses. I give up my own weekends with friends to stay with my brother and dad won't leave the house. He refuses to get counselling because he had a bad experience with a therapist in the past; he won't say what happened but just that he refuses to go to one. I almost feel like he's equal parts miserable with being stuck in the house and also using the caregiver role to play martyr, because we keep giving him viable options and he keeps shooting us down. If he can't come up with a concrete reason for not doing something, he just says we're too stupid to get it and changes the subject. I want to help because I do believe it's making him miserable, but I'm at a loss.

Again, thank you all. I wish I could put together a more thoughtful response to all of you but I'm trying to be stealthy at work Hope you're all having a good day so far.

[No-One]

Hemlock:
Is it possible for your mom to just move forward with getting Social Security for your brother on her own accord?  It appears as if there is no justifiable reason to NOT get your brother on Social Security.  Your mom probably needs to work around your father to get that done.  Sounds like your father has several good options, that don't involve you. 

How old is your brother?  If your brother is lsolated  in such a way, that it could be construed as neglect, could it be helpful to get social services involved.  Just throwing out an idea to try and shake things up and bring about some positive change.

You dad is probably fearful of change.  Getting a stranger involved as a caretaker for your brother is probably something he doesn't want, just from the perspective of having to interact with someone new. 

Your dad may well need to be forced to change and your mom should be the one to take care of that.  Perhaps your mom can come back to your town for a vacation or personal leave and you can all meet with a family counselor to discuss all the issues with your parents and brother.

Sorry about the situation with the co-owned house (with your ex).  If he won't budge, the only recourse is to go to court and force a sale.  Lawyers can get expensive.  An alternative, is to represent yourself in court.  It sounds scary, but sometimes free and cheap legal advice can be acquired.  There is a lot on the internet available about preparing various court forms on a generic basis.  The superior court for where you live would have a lot of information available as well. 

[AskingWhy]

I definitely do. I think I was even before she left, actually. I've been reading a lot about emotional incest lately and it all seems very familiar.

If you feel this way, Hemlock, you might want to read these articles:

www.https://bpdfamily.org/2010/10/your-parents-have-you-been-victim.html