77-year-old mother with BPD. I’m tempted to throw up my hands.

[Merike65]

Hi there. Glad to have found this board.  I'm dealing with my 77-year- old mother. She hasn't been officially diagnosed but she checks all the boxes: black and white thinking, rageaholic behavior, extensive use of FOG, fear of abandonment. My late sister would go for years without speaking to her because mom would meddle and criticize her childrearing. Now that my sister is dead she's driving my brother-in-law crazy and making the childcare issues (my sister left four) much more difficult.  

[Mutt]

Hi Merike65,



I'm sorry for your loss. You're correct we can't diagnose someone only a professional can do that what we can look at are BPD traits. I see that you have BPD traits there I'm curious about the fear of abandonment I was in a romantic r/s with someone with BPD traits and the fear of abandonment felt like push / pull behaviours. I'm also sorry to hear about your nieces and nephews left behind making it more difficult for him. BIL would have sole custody how is she making things more difficult if she doesn't have custody?

[Merike65]

Hi Merike65,



I'm sorry for your loss.

Thank you.

 You're correct we can't diagnose someone only a professional can do that what we can look at are BPD traits. I see that you have BPD traits there I'm curious about the fear of abandonment I was in a romantic r/s with someone with BPD traits and the fear of abandonment felt like push / pull behaviours.

Yes, I think we all have some fear of abandonment and there's always a natural push/pull in romantic r/s but with BPD folks it's magnified I'm guessing.

 I'm also sorry to hear about your nieces and nephews left behind making it more difficult for him. BIL would have sole custody how is she making things more difficult if she doesn't have custody?

It's a long story; suffice it to say we're all helping him financially and she uses this as justification for nagging, meddling, being divisive and manipulative. She's never liked my bil (no good reason) and seems to forget that if it weren't for him my husband and I would have to adopt four kids. They live 250 miles away so that complicates matters.

[Mutt]

He's recently widowed with four kids and SIL is creating a lot of drama and chaos. Does he work full time? I'm a single dad with three kids, I work fulltime, it's a lot of work plus your BIL has to contend with your sister. It has to be excruciatingly hard for him.

There are ways to cope with a HCP ( High Conflict Personality ) Do you think that our resources would benefit him and his family? Would it help him if he registered on bpdfamily?

[Merike65]

Thanks for replying. He understands her craziness, is too busy taking care of the kids to spend time on this.

There's really not much I can do at this point. She blew up over the weekend, we got into a vicious fight via text because she thinks my brother-in-law is neglecting the kids and that they are malnourished. Needless to say that's far from the truth. Now she thinks I'm on his side, of course.

Does anyone here have experience with BPD delusional thinking?

Thanks!

[Harley Quinn]

Hi Merike65,

I'd like to join Mutt in welcoming you to the site.  This certainly is a difficult situation.  It's good that you reached out here for support.

I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of your sister.  That's incredibly painful for all of your family.  How long ago did your sister pass away?  You mention that your sister would go for long periods of time without having any contact with your mother.  How is your relationship with your mother normally?  :)o you live nearby to one another?

Love and light x    

[wendydarling]

Hi there Merike65  

I join Mutt and Harely Quinn, welcome to our community, I've popped over from our parents board.

My heartfelt condolences to you, losing your sister  , your brother in law losing his wife, his children losing their mother, you both are doing your best right now, you and BIL sound connected, while frustrated.  Is that right, you connect, understand each other Merike65, trying to walk forwards together, find solutions that work?

Can you and your BIL step out of your mothers drama, the control you feel by her? What may that look like to you and BIL inching forwards?

Stick with us, we work through as we post, share and learn with our community here.  

You are not alone, we are walking with you.

Speak out, everyone is listening.

WDx

[Radcliff]

Hello Merike65, I'm so sorry for the loss of your sister, but I'm glad you've found us.  This is a community full of people with experience with BPD thinking.  We can help you to respond to the challenges in the healthiest way possible.  I'll let you answer Harley Quinn's and wendydarling's questions before asking any of my own.  We can continue talking this through with you.  As you help us fully understand your situation, we can help you figure out how you can navigate it in the best way.

WW

[DaddyBear77]

Does anyone here have experience with BPD delusional thinking?

Hey Merike65 - I saw this question in your last post and I wanted to jump in and say, OH yeah, a LOT of people here have experience with delusional thinking, myself included.

The relationships for me are a little different - I have a wife with undiagnosed BPD (abbreviated uBPDw) who has a conflict with my mother. But the delusions are similar, and really hard to deal with. For me, my wife has this delusional belief about my mother being a true physical danger to my child (4yo daughter). Like your situation, this delusion couldn't be further from the truth, but to my wife, it is completely valid and real.

I've spent many many many years giving in to my wife's delusional thinking. I've accommodated her so much that my entire family of origin, including my two brothers, their wives, and my parents have only met my daughter once, ever. This goes against everything I truly believe, and I'm trying desperately to find my own path out of my complicit behaviors.

A really important thing I've learned (and am still learning) is that the person with BPD in our lives will often rely on US to give up our power and rights in order to accomplish their goals. I believe this is what wendydarling is getting at when she asks "can you step out of your mother's drama" - THIS is the key question to ask yourself. Am I correct in understanding that you're providing financial support to your BIL? And is the pressure from your mother an effort to get you to stop or some how manipulate your BIL through financial control? Do you think this is the right thing to do? What can you do to ensure YOU continue to do what you think is right?

[Notwendy]

I am sorry for your loss. That must be devastating for all involved.

I have a BPD mother who often has delusional thinking. I will share some of my experiences that may possibly help you with your situation.

PwBPD don't do well with uncomfortable emotions and some of their behavior is the way they cope with them. When my father was ill and passed away, my mother's BPD behaviors escalated. Naturally this was stressful for her but rather then cope in appropriate ways, she coped with her BPD behaviors

I was also not in the most emotionally stable place to deal with her. I was grieving too. Yet my mother could not empathize with my situation, she was focused on her own situation. Some of my own behaviors escalated the drama between us and my tolerance for hers was less.

The drama ( Karpman) triangle was a foundation for the relationships in my FOO. You may see this pattern in yours with you, your BIL and your mother.

Money from my mother isn't a gift. It has strings attached- more like giant ropes. It is a form of control for her. I avoid accepting any gifts from her ( she doesn't offer ) because of this. Your BIL may be in need right now, but if it is possible to get away from her financial control, it may help.

DB made an astute point about power: the person with BPD in our lives will often rely on US to give up our power and rights in order to accomplish their goals.


This is my mother exactly. She married my father when she was right out of college ( typical for her era) and didn't work ( also typical for her era), She didn't have her own personal power to get what she wanted. She does it by manipulation, Drama triangle- being the victim to one family member and getting another one to rescue her and by fear. We had to do what she wanted or she would rage or get our father to punish us. She had absolute power over everyone in the house.

The pattern of drama between the person with BPD and another person close to them is a familiar and well rehearsed pattern. It isn't just with one family member. Although the romantic relationship was between my parents, the roles in the Karpman triangle were between all of us. My mother and a sibling interact in a similar way that my parents did, minus the romance. I have tried to stop participating in these patterns with her but it takes work.

I hope this information can help you see through some of the patterns and make changes for yourself and your BIL. Again I am sorry for your loss.

[Merike65]

Thanks, folks, for the welcome, condolences, and the help.

Harley Quinn, my sister died a little more than three years ago. My mom and I live in the same city, and we have had a difficult relationship at times, mostly because of her illness, but we get along pretty well when we're not dealing with her triggers (BIL, the kids, food). She has several health issues, including obesity, that I am trying to help her with but when she's like this I can't.

wendydarling, yeah, I get along fine with my BIL. He has had it with her drama. What makes it difficult is that while my husband and I help financially, she covers about $800-$1,000/month in expenses. My BIL receives Soc Sec survivor's benefits and also works but his work (carpentry) is very seasonal where he lives (New England).  She's now insisting that BIL jump through all kinds of crazy hoops to prove that the kids aren't malnourished. He's sick of it and says he can find ways to do without her money. My husband and I could cover it but I'd have to change jobs and probably give up my plans to change careers and become a therapist, at least for now.

DaddyBear I feel for you. Sounds exactly like my mom. What I am now doing is just drawing better boundaries and trying to get her into proper treatment. It's hard. I'm highly conflict-averse and don't like confrontation. She can be very nasty.

Notwendy, yep, giant ropes. And I am so sorry for your loss. The Karpman triangle sure sounds familiar; she definitely did that with my sister and me and in a slightly different way with my BIL and me. I'll have to do more reading on the Karpman triangle.

  Merike65
 

[Radcliff]

Merike65,

If at all possible, draw a boundary around your desire to switch careers and become a therapist.  That sounds like an important mission!  Not just because you would be helping people, but because you need to keep your dreams moving and not just caretake others.  "Later" has a way of becoming "never" when it comes to dreams.

WW

[Merike65]

Wentworth, thanks for that encouragement. I really appreciate it.

Merike

[wendydarling]

Merike65,

If at all possible, draw a boundary around your desire to switch careers and become a therapist.  That sounds like an important mission!  Not just because you would be helping people, but because you need to keep your dreams moving and not just caretake others.  "Later" has a way of becoming "never" when it comes to dreams.

WW

So very true WW, and the changes you make each day Merike65 however big or small, your BIL and everyone around you will benefit too. That must be so hard for your BIL to be financially reliant, there is always a way out and it's good he's thinking that way.  

WDx  

[Merike65]

Well, here's a cheery update. My mother has told me not to contact her. This is because I refuse to subscribe to her conspiracy theory about my brother-in-law and his care of my sister's kids. She's escalated her accusations to include deliberately not taking them to the doctor and then lying about it. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I got the NC text at the end of a text argument on Monday night. I'm her only surviving child and she's 78 with health issues, so NC is really not something I'm willing to entertain. I'm letting her cool down for now; I have called her doctor, am waiting for a call back. I don't have a lot of options here--I'm not her healthcare proxy and don't have a POA--but feel duty bound to try at least to see if her gp has any ideas. She has been hospitalized for depression and has made a (fortunately) half-hearted suicide attempt in the past.

I'm tempted to throw up my hands. Any suggestions welcomed.

Thanks,

Merike65

[Radcliff]

Merike65,

I'm sorry to hear about the latest development.  It must be very upsetting to be caught between worrying about her needs, your needs, your sense of obligation, and all of the other factors.

I'm going to recommend a book, called "Boundaries," by Cloud and Townsend (the book is heavy on Bible references, but you can mentally filter them out if that suits you).  You've described several things about your mom's behavior, particularly her interactions with your brother-in-law that show that she operates without any notion of boundaries.  She has likely been operating like this since before you were born.  The book helped me understand how a lack of boundaries in our families of origin (FOO) can set us up for our adult relationships.  By refusing to buy into her version of events, you are essentially declaring a boundary, and she is reacting against it.

Take a look at this page on setting boundaries.  Boundaries are about what we do, not about controlling what someone else does.  We can only control ourselves.  Your mom has a right to not answer communications from you.  You could do quite a few things with your behavior.  You could not communicate with her.  You could send her a gentle, "How are you doing" e-mail once a week, etc.  But trying to get her to do something is just as bad as what she's been doing to everyone else for years. 

When we do boundaries well, they really help reduce our stress, and they often help reduce conflict once folks get used to them.  When we start them up, there's often some drama that we have to get through.  Only trying to control ourselves, and not others, is a successful strategy.  It works, because we can succeed at controlling ourselves.

How might it feel if you just let your mom be NC for a week?  If you didn't worry about fixing it?  Didn't make it your problem?

WW

[Merike65]

Hi Wentworth.

Thanks for the response. I will read the book. It's a tricky situation; she's not taking care of herself and with her mental and physical health issues going NC for more than a few days (which I'm already doing just because I'm fed up) makes me nervous. Her doctor doesn't think she should be living alone at this point. My mother has told me in the past that when she doesn't want to talk sometimes "it's my depression talking" so it's confusing.

Best,

M.

[Radcliff]

It certainly sounds tricky.  I think just discovering the concept of boundaries, and then moving them back and forth a bit, adjusting what you're comfortable owning, etc. can be very powerful.  There's no one answer for where boundaries should be.  They can change as your feelings or situation change, as a child ages, as a parent declines.  The key is being intentional about it, and making sure that you are in the healthiest place for you at a given point in time.

Keep us posted!

WW

[Harley Quinn]

Hi Merike,

You mention your mother's doctor.  It sounds like they have a relationship; does she visit when she needs to?
 The reason I'm asking this is because my next question is whether you think your mother has capacity to make decisions for herself?  

With her doctor thinking she ought not to live alone right now, perhaps she could use some professional advice (from her doctor?) to consider outside help from a carer service.  I'm wondering if this is something you could speak to the doctor about when they return your call.

Love and light x

[Merike65]

Yeah, Wentworth, I agree re: the shifting boundaries, especially as a parent ages and becomes more dependent.

Harley Quinn, the situation with my mother's doctor is strange. She seems like a competent and concerned physician, but her office is chaotic. My mother dreaded going there because it always meant a two-hour or so wait. Having gone to the doctor with my mother and experienced the chaos firsthand, I can understand my mom's frustration. For instance, the doctor has not yet returned my call, after telling me that she was concerned about my mom and thought maybe she shouldn't be living alone. As for whether my mom is competent to make decisions, I think she's perhaps on the cusp due to her mental illness rather than dementia but it would be hard to tell under the best of circumstances. I would love to get some outside help but it's impossible at the moment. I was assisting her a couple of times a week and that worked for both of us. She's sane on most subjects but absolutely irrational and immovable on the subject of my sister's children.

zachira, you put it beautifully. I am trying to accept the relationship for what it is.

Thanks everyone. Will definitely keep you posted.

XXOO,

Merike