issuing ultimatums vs enforcing boundaries

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Pete,

Let me try to "reflect back" what Skip is asking you to see.  I may not have this right... .so... Skip... .nudge this as needed.

Perhaps let's start with "truths"... .or "axioms".

1.  The battleground is not the phone (that's a skirmish)... the battleground is her feelings.  What are you doing to care for her feelings?  What is she doing?  Perhaps most importantly, what are you doing to be supportive of her caring for her feelings?

2.  We (nons... the male nons especially) tend to be logical creatures.  We tend to let our "facts" influence our feelings and have a hard time wrapping our head around those that "do it backwards".  This tends to lead us to "invalidate" our partners, when we have no intention of doing so.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

Wrapping our heads around the truth that I don't have a harem... and how that in any way can negatively effect my relationship with my wife is still hard, yet I accept it as true.  This "truth" has a big effect on how I communicate (or even more important how I DON'T communicate) with my wife.



Do you understand how she "feels" about the phone?  I'm not suggesting you need to agree.  I totally understand that YOU don't think you are withdrawing... .yet I wonder what it looks like from where she is.  (not suggesting you give her back unrestricted access).  

How does your view of "her view" of the phone thing affect the way you talk to her... your tone... body language... etc etc.  Remember... they pick up on tons of cues that we don't.

Last thought:  And perhaps what Skip is driving at.  There is a big difference in strategic and tactical.  You just did "tactics" about the phone (I assume you put a code on it).  There is a strategic thought behind this about your "openness" or "inviting in" your wife... .a connection or offer of connection if you will.

Is there a way you can protect your privacy more, yet gently lean in for more connection?

FF

[formflier]

Pete,

Let me try to "reflect back" what Skip is asking you to see.  I may not have this right... .so... Skip... .nudge this as needed.

Perhaps let's start with "truths"... .or "axioms".

1.  The battleground is not the phone (that's a skirmish)... the battleground is her feelings.  What are you doing to care for her feelings?  What is she doing?  Perhaps most importantly, what are you doing to be supportive of her caring for her feelings?

2.  We (nons... the male nons especially) tend to be logical creatures.  We tend to let our "facts" influence our feelings and have a hard time wrapping our head around those that "do it backwards".  This tends to lead us to "invalidate" our partners, when we have no intention of doing so.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

Wrapping our heads around the truth that I don't have a harem... and how that in any way can negatively effect my relationship with my wife is still hard, yet I accept it as true.  This "truth" has a big effect on how I communicate (or even more important how I DON'T communicate) with my wife.



Do you understand how she "feels" about the phone?  I'm not suggesting you need to agree.  I totally understand that YOU don't think you are withdrawing... .yet I wonder what it looks like from where she is.  (not suggesting you give her back unrestricted access).  

How does your view of "her view" of the phone thing affect the way you talk to her... your tone... body language... etc etc.  Remember... they pick up on tons of cues that we don't.

Last thought:  And perhaps what Skip is driving at.  There is a big difference in strategic and tactical.  You just did "tactics" about the phone (I assume you put a code on it).  There is a strategic thought behind this about your "openness" or "inviting in" your wife... .a connection or offer of connection if you will.

Is there a way you can protect your privacy more, yet gently lean in for more connection?

FF

[babyducks]

I noticed this from Skip and thought I would pick up the ball and throw it back into play.

When conflict has been going on for a long time, we often normalize it in our mind and think it can continue as it has in the past. But the fact is that the conflict is slowly eroding the relationship and creating concrete barriers to its repair - with the wife and the kids.

I did this.    Got used to the conflict.    Assumed it would go on the same way for ever.    Never really saw the slow drip drip drip of the conflict wearing away the bedrock.   Never really saw the slow drip drip wearing me away.

I got numb.    I thought 'oh it's going to be this way forever until something happens to change it.'     I was both right and wrong about that.   something finally did happen to change things,   all that bottled up resentment blew like a coca cola bottle that had been over shaken.

it could have gone done a lot easier and better, for everyone involved if I had been a little more proactive and less reactive.    

I know it's a great relief to come here and blow off steam.   how many people actually understand BPD and it's symptoms really?   what I learned is that blowing off steam can become a slippery slope.    my pwBPD did THIS.  and some one posts back;  Oh Yeah my pwBPD did THIS.   and before you know it's a down hill spiral into competitive war stories that deepen the resentment and entrenchment in conflict.    

nobody here is going to say it's not difficult to embrace the realities of BPD.   it is.   but like it says over to the right in step 4     it's vital to gain an unemotional understanding of what's going on in your relationship.

fight to win?   or seek to resolve?    Resolution can look very different for different people.  but in my book resolution means less conflict.

[PeteWitsend]

I haven't disengaged from my wife over this. 

We've been openly communicating and discussed each focusing on better communication, staying positive (ie avoiding negative comments) and having a better week this week.  so far so good.

I get that blowing off steam takes a conversation off the rails; my comment about my aunt's visit wasn't intended to do that.

I'm not "playing hard ball" with my wife over this stuff, and 7/10 times, when confronted with a negative attitude or response, I'm able to redirect her, address her emotional concerns, and move on.

I can only do so much though; I have a stressful job with long hours.  at times work pressure & marital pressure is too much to bear, and I can't do the empathy thing. 

If it ends, so be it!  I'll most likely end up with 40% custody, divide marital assets, pay child support for a while (no alimony in this state!), and find someone new - remembering the red flags I ignored when I got into this one. 

Not to be flippant... .but I can't be a caretaker for the rest of my life.  I didn't sign up for that.  The D word will affect my kids, sure, but so will seeing their parents fight all the time and be miserable.

[Skip]

If it ends, so be it!  I'll most likely end up with 40% custody, divide marital assets, pay child support for a while (no alimony in this state!), and find someone new - remembering the red flags I ignored when I got into this one.  

Not to be flippant... .but I can't be a caretaker for the rest of my life.  I didn't sign up for that.  The D word will affect my kids, sure, but so will seeing their parents fight all the time and be miserable.

OK. Fair. You see a high conflict divorce in the future as inevitable. "So be it!". Enough said.

(1) you can all tell me I'm a horrible cheating ass for not letting my wife see my phone and I still won't do it. (2) I just wanted feedback on setting boundaries over the allegations of infidelity, esp. when made in front of my kids.

(1) Can you point out where this was said or even implied? I ask this not to embarrass, but to possible show that if you are triggering on your friends in a support group setting, you might be triggering at home. By triggering I mean being hyper-defensive and reading into things (both meaning and intent) and the resurfacing the emotions from years of resentment - anger. This thread could have easily gone off the rails and into conflict if anyone participating with you wasn't completely centered. There were also a couple of place where you were pushing buttons.

Point: This is stage three stuff. It will become stage four if someone doesn't recognize that this is a cycle of conflict that is just waiting for triggers, a wrong look, to set it off. Disproportionate reactions beget more disproportionate reactions. This cycle can be broken.

(2) So the question is, how do stop your wife's inherent insecurity and "no filter" communication style. Most would suggest a broader, strategic approach (to use FormFlier' term) to the insecurity. Being belligerent, triggery, defensive, and/or issuing an ultimatum might drive the issue underground for the time being, but it will continue to resurface with more gusto every time it is "triggered". This two-way triggering thing drives a Hatfield and McCoy style of feuding, where the fight typically only ends in a draw and temporarily.

Values and boundaries could apply to a broader, strategic approach. It sounds like you are looking for more of an ultimatum enforced by threat (like anger) or non-cooperation (unilateral locking, blocking, hiding).

Point: Ultimatum's work with children, or in employer/employee relationships, coach/player relationships, but not so well in marriages or partnerships.

[Shawnlam]

I foreone can attest 100% that ultimatums DO NOT WORK!  Not only do they not work but they usually amplify the problem to catastrophic levels .Ive done it and the word “backfire” isn’t a strong enough word to equate the outcome.

[PeteWitsend]

skip, I took this comment  of yours in post #19: "A lot of what we are suggesting here are the very tactics that men who are in affairs use."

... .to mean barring access to my phone is simply the wrong approach.  

I admit I've probably developed a sensitivity & too fatalistic approach toward the eventual outcome here, but I did take this to mean you would in theory concur with my wife's judgment that if I said she could no longer look at my phone (after DOZENS of fights, baseless accusations over the years), that it would be fair for her to be suspicious.

Where I am now is accepting the permanence of BPD; it's not going to get better.  and also understanding that the things I value and need more of -personal space, and personal relationships with friends (none female, for the record) and my own family members - are viewed as threats by my own spouse.

I can either try to preserve a modicum of personal space, or live under her foot, jump when she says so, and cut ties with friends & family she doesn't approve of.
BUT in either case, she'll still be unhappy with me, because in the former, she's not getting what she wanted, and in the latter it wasn't my idea to begin with.

If preserving a modicum of personal space leads to divorce, what kind of relationship is it?

[Skip]

I did take this to mean you would in theory concur with my wife's judgment that if I said she could no longer look at my phone (after DOZENS of fights, baseless accusations over the years), that it would be fair for her to be suspicious.

OK. What I was trying to point out that if any women described that reaction (the totality of it), to a reputable confidant, they would say that it is suspicious. So if she tells the story to a therapist, a pastor, a relative, a guy in the office, people would say "well that doesn't sound good, it's not conclusive, I would watch carefully".

This is a reality that doesn't help matters. They will side with her.

I can either try to preserve a modicum of personal space, or live under her foot, jump when she says so, and cut ties with friends & family she doesn't approve of.

Experts will tell you that a pwBPD does best with structure, a partner who unconditionally has their back, and a strong person who is not a doormat. This is doable in many (not all) relationships.

You have 6 years of fighting to recover and nothing will happen fast, but there are better choices than the either/or you have listed above.

People solve the insecurity / privacy dilemma.  You have to look at the bigger picture to do it, though.

[PeteWitsend]

Well, for the record, I'm not throwing in the towel.

and even when I look at my own behavior critically, for example "Am I being fair, or overly sensitive?" OR "Am I overreacting and maybe provoking some of this, subconsciously seeking a fight to end it all?"  I remember that after we make up, I am genuinely happy; I don't want a divorce; I don't want to throw away everything we have.  I want to plan for the future, and build on what we have now.  

But the randomness of it all, coming home happy, and leaving confused and angry, feeling ambushed, accused, berated, etc.  seeing her lash out at family members to sabotage their relationships with me, use our kids to get back at me or them (throwing away gifts, threatening to prevent contact, etc.)... .no
one should have to endure such treatment.  

I've gone from shock that she could make some of the allegations and attacks she's made, deep resentment over these things, to anger at myself for seeing the red flags and ignoring them, to fatalistic acceptance that eventually we'll get in a fight so bad that our marriage won't recover from it.  Maybe we can handle a couple more of them before we get to that part.  I don't know.  I also don't know what it will be like to retire and live with someone like this in old age... .constant demands on my time.  Jealousy over time spent with others.  etc. 

[PeteWitsend]

I know life is a constant struggle.  a BPD marriage takes that constant struggle to absurd heights... .yet I do still have some hope left that we'll be able to manage this better, and maybe the peaks and valleys will moderate somewhat.

I do envy those who post here and are out of it.  or who discovered this site or the nature of BPD before legally committing to someone and having kids with them.  I have Never seen anyone say "I really miss having to walk on eggshells all the time."

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Pete,

I have a different take on cell phone privacy, for what it's worth.

My BPDxW did her best to isolate me from family and friends.  Without their input, I was in danger of losing all perspective on reality, including the reality that I was a victim of spousal abuse.

My Ex tried to cut me off from those who cared about me, which is why, over her objections, I put a passcode on my cell phone.

My cell phone became my lifeline for help.  I determined that cell phone privacy was my boundary, because it enabled me to reach out for badly-needed assistance.

I favor guarding one's cell phone privacy, for that reason.  I shudder to think about what might have happened to me without it.

LuckyJim

[Skip]

I have a different take on cell phone privacy... .

Different from what, Jim? 

[formflier]

Boundaries are my #1 tool for stabilizing my relationship.  I've said that for a while now.

That being said, boundaries don't "connect" people and sometimes we end up "apart" because of a boundary/enforcement on my part.  There is a cost to boundaries and in my case it was worth it.

So... .Pete seems to be wrapping his head around boundaries AND taking action along those lines (for clarity... action that I agree with). 

In my opinion, that shows a lot of growth on Pete's part.  Knowledge... turned into action... .and held up under assault.  Solid work. 

So... .I think what we are challenging Pete on is not boundaries but what is the knowledge (perhaps plan is better word) he has to "connect" or "build" his relationship with his wife.

Once there is knowledge... .or if there is... .where is the action.  Will this action stand up under "sabotage" or "reactivity" from a pwBPD?

Skip... .is this a better summation of the question before us?

FF

[PeteWitsend]

Hey Pete,

I have a different take on cell phone privacy, for what it's worth.

My BPDxW did her best to isolate me from family and friends.  Without their input, I was in danger of losing all perspective on reality, including the reality that I was a victim of spousal abuse.

My Ex tried to cut me off from those who cared about me, which is why, over her objections, I put a passcode on my cell phone.

My cell phone became my lifeline for help.  I determined that cell phone privacy was my boundary, because it enabled me to reach out for badly-needed assistance.

I favor guarding one's cell phone privacy, for that reason.  I shudder to think about what might have happened to me without it.

LuckyJim

Yeah, the attempts to isolate me from friends and family were the thing that convinced me I was dealing with something more than just run-of-the-mill marital problems.  And these attempts have been passive aggressive (eg making me sit through 20 questions if I say I'm going to a happy hour with colleagues) to overt (asking me to cut contact with my mom because she feels she doesn't like her).

I see now also that her willingness to relocate for my career a few years ago may have been done because it involved me leaving a city where I had long term connections and roots for one where I had none.

I've resisted these efforts to date; for a while she insisted that if I was going to call my mom, family and friends, I include her in the calls.  I complied, trying to take her requests in good faith, at face value... .but when I would comply, she'd still be unhappy, sitting there making snide comments or outright questioning why we had to call my mom, grandparents, etc. in the first place.

so I just call them at lunch, or when I'm away from home now.

on the other hand... .she would call her parents almost daily (my MIL lives with us now).

Double standards... .

but you're right... .it helps me preserve my sanity.

[Skip]

I do still have some hope left that we'll be able to manage this better, and maybe the peaks and valleys will moderate somewhat.

If you want to resolve the jealousy and insecurity (her) vs the independence and feelings of engulfment (you) issues, the battlefield is not the telephone or the credit card bill. Those are just transitional targets. And there is no right and wrong with them - I have close friends where husband and wife share an email address - extremely healthy and married 20+ years. In my current relationship, two very private people, we are slowly giving each other access to things - an unspoken earned access. We still have our privacy in certain areas. As LuckyJim points out, you need  to maintain your support group privacy, for example.

A. The first battlefield is heart. Consistently making her feel special and that no women holds a candle to her and that you would never abandon her will go along way. Remember, she over-expresses emotions and she is looking for the same thing from you.  Finding the right way to do this and be authentic will take a some trial and error. You need to phase this in over time - don't flip a dramatic switch. This won't fix everything, don't expect it to, but it will fix a lot and it compromises you "zero" - you give up nothing for this. B. The second battle field is weathering impulsive passing emotions. She is a pwBPD and she will always have off the wall passing emotional reactions that she over-emotes. The most important thing to understand her is that they are passing and you don't want to grab on make them into a ongoing drama (you are doing this, now). You will be amazed how often the blow out as fast as they come in. Some times a little appropriate validation, or a hug, or, I understand, lets work on that, helps. If she is "in drive", the best thing to do is buy time. Wow, you are really upset, explain that to me, ok that's important, let me think about that for a few hours and lets talk. A few hours later, when thing are cool you can validate her heart, show your loyalty (offer a date night or something).

No magic here. If you adopt this philosophy it may take a year to master. But it will start working at some level immediately. You will get called out when if its not authentic (and that is a cue to make adjustments). This will serve your relationship, and any future relationship. These are tools of emotional maturity.

Make sense?

So going back to that transitional target, your phone. The more you pull it away, the more she will want in. This is basic human nature.  Next time you have a phone showdown and you can't resolve it by weathering the storm, make a date you go through the phone... .like the next morning before work... .and go through it together and make it fun (you show your email list, she shows hers, she picks a random email to read, you pick a random email to read) and then "oops, out of time, got to go to work".

Get the idea. You don't give up anything with this.

OK, kickers... .comments?  

Are these healthy values/boundaries?
Value: "Intimacy and transparency", and "interdependence and independence" in my marriage are vitally important. It's important that my wife feel secure and "no secrets" in my marriage and its important that I am fully responsible for and maintain a healthy level of autonomy.
Boundary 102: (as it relates to phone, only) My phone is password protected for practical reasons (no one messes up my organization, accidentally erases files, has access to passwords, etc.) but I am open to share its contents, respectfully, on occasion for transparency reasons. This is an exercise that must be loving and comfortable for everyone.


Chuck Norris is still alive and kicking

[formflier]

  You will be amazed how often the blow out as fast as they come in. 

I like the "fire analogy".  A fire must have fuel to keep burning.  You are not responsible if she is the one adding fuel to the fire... .you are only responsible for what you add.  Heaven forbid... don't toss gasoline on there (I don't think you did in this instance).  Sometimes you feel as though you have to do something that adds fuel, what we teach here at bpdfamily is to try and be wise and add fuel that is "relatively safe" (basically good boundary enforcement)


Let's continue the fire analogy for Skip's other point.  Making her feel special.  Imagine her feelings as a small fire... .you want to gently tend it... some keep a nice comfortable "warmth" coming off it.  Practically speaking it may be a light touch... .leaning a little closer... .a gentle rub on the shoulder.  consistency here is critical.

FF

[PeteWitsend]

Well, I tried the "let it blow over technique" yesterday, and it seemed to have worked.

She had a short 1-day business trip for work.  when she's had these in the past, I've noticed she comes back with an incredibly short fuse, and we get into a huge fight over some ridiculous issue.  (but more about that below.)

In the present case, she was on her way back, and called me to talk as both of us were on our way home from work.  in my case, I was walking out of the building, when I said "hold on a sec" as I got into the elevator.  Immediately I get grilled "hold on a sec?  WHAT?  WHY?  Are you afraid to talk to your wife in public?"

WHOA! Here we go... .

I stayed calm though, and rode out some similar waves of hostility related to whether or not I was interested in hearing about her trip, and why I was not saying much.

When I got home, she was happy... .So there.

open questions about her behavior though:
1) this isn't the first time she's gone somewhere for work for a couple days and came back looking for a fight.  Is it separation anxiety?  I don't recall her getting similarly belligerent when she's gone for weekends to visit her friend for a baby shower or something like that.

2) on occasion, if we're out in public and a woman talks to me in a friendly manner (even if it's a waitress taking my order) my wife will get sullen and accuse me of something strange, like yelling at her "because I feel arrogant now that another woman talked to me"... .(and I was definitely not yelling at the time).

her boss is a bit of a dodgy character IMO.  I don't think he's a malicious person, but definitely not very honest or up-front with people, and a bit of a glad-hander.  

she tells me how much he praises her abilities, introduces her to senior people at her job, etc. on these trips.  (FWIW -I don't suspect anything untoward, as his wife has often gone with them and they are not alone together) is she projecting a bit here?  is she doing what she accuses me of doing?  getting a big head from outside attention and taking it out on those around her?

Is she coming back expecting to hear about how great she is, and upon not getting that (usually because I'm tired from having shouldered sole burden of work + childcare for the time she's away), reacts with such hostility?  

it goes without saying maybe, but of course, she's never offered any sort of appreciation for doing this without complaining.  she almost seems to resent me even trying to tell her about anything the boys and I did while she is away.

[PeteWitsend]

I was able to weather the storm, FWIW, because I was in a good mood, and not under stress at work at the moment.

NOT always possible!