Could I have really changed the outcome?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

For a very long time, I blamed myself thinking it was my fault.

I tried to figure out where I went wrong. Two people that have so much in common, but something doesn’t feel right. Why doesn’t this feel right? Everything is perfect, but why am I becoming so attached? Whats keeping me holding on to this person, knowing that ultimately it’s not going to work out. I had these thoughts for a long time, I really felt that I could have been her superman, I could have rescued her. I would talk to her from dusk till dawn, make sure I could give her everything that I could. I felt my lowest telling me, she’s gonna be engaged to someone else. I shared so many parts of my life with this person because I actually thought we could have a future together. But, even after the manipulation, threats and how I don’t care and im selfish.

All I remember is the good parts, the parts where you made me feel complete. I could never hate her, because thats not who I was in the relationship and that’s not who I was before that, so even now it won’t change the way I am, but it was only after I realized that the truth was that my needs never mattered, despite what you would say. It was never about me. I remember her calling me, and telling me I need your help I know I hurt you but just listen to me please and I immediately called back, and the state of emergency was the fact that she wanted a small wedding not a big one, and was it anger, Or an epiphany.

I realized it was never going to work, because it takes two people in a relationship in this it was just me. I was putting aside my feelings, just to help and at that point I asked for closure, and even after the closure, 72 hours later I had missed calls.

Then some time went by, and assuming some cracks started occurring in the new relationship, and I had 6-8 missed calls,  and I was suddenly someone that she missed. It’s been a month since no contact, when will the next time be I don’t know.

I spent so long trying to figure out the behavoir and learning everything about BPD, but the truth is I forgot the fact that I can make myself better but I can’t make someone better that doesn’t want to be. I was angry at the wrong reason, it didn’t matter whether this new guy came in so quick or too late, the fact was it was inetivble the second I would have stopped giving her attention, I would have been discarded.

I was wrong to think that, if she came back, that would have made me feel better. But the truth is, permanent decisions based on temporary feelings is never a good idea. At first I could not stand the idea of her being with someone else, but now I’m slowly accepting the fact that the person I did all those things for never existed, and I was in a fantasy world. But it also taught me that, its okay to disagree and live life according to the way you want to, because those that like you will still like you for the way you are.

I could not have changed the outcome, it was going to end one way or another, and thats the truth.

Thoughts?

[Struggler123]

For a very long time, I blamed myself thinking it was my fault.

I tried to figure out where I went wrong. Two people that have so much in common, but something doesn’t feel right. Why doesn’t this feel right? Everything is perfect, but why am I becoming so attached? Whats keeping me holding on to this person, knowing that ultimately it’s not going to work out. I had these thoughts for a long time, I really felt that I could have been her superman, I could have rescued her. I would talk to her from dusk till dawn, make sure I could give her everything that I could. I felt my lowest telling me, she’s gonna be engaged to someone else. I shared so many parts of my life with this person because I actually thought we could have a future together. But, even after the manipulation, threats and how I don’t care and im selfish.

All I remember is the good parts, the parts where you made me feel complete. I could never hate her, because thats not who I was in the relationship and that’s not who I was before that, so even now it won’t change the way I am, but it was only after I realized that the truth was that my needs never mattered, despite what you would say. It was never about me. I remember her calling me, and telling me I need your help I know I hurt you but just listen to me please and I immediately called back, and the state of emergency was the fact that she wanted a small wedding not a big one, and was it anger, Or an epiphany.

I realized it was never going to work, because it takes two people in a relationship in this it was just me. I was putting aside my feelings, just to help and at that point I asked for closure, and even after the closure, 72 hours later I had missed calls.

Then some time went by, and assuming some cracks started occurring in the new relationship, and I had 6-8 missed calls,  and I was suddenly someone that she missed. It’s been a month since no contact, when will the next time be I don’t know.

I spent so long trying to figure out the behavoir and learning everything about BPD, but the truth is I forgot the fact that I can make myself better but I can’t make someone better that doesn’t want to be. I was angry at the wrong reason, it didn’t matter whether this new guy came in so quick or too late, the fact was it was inetivble the second I would have stopped giving her attention, I would have been discarded.

I was wrong to think that, if she came back, that would have made me feel better. But the truth is, permanent decisions based on temporary feelings is never a good idea. At first I could not stand the idea of her being with someone else, but now I’m slowly accepting the fact that the person I did all those things for never existed, and I was in a fantasy world. But it also taught me that, its okay to disagree and live life according to the way you want to, because those that like you will still like you for the way you are.

I could not have changed the outcome, it was going to end one way or another, and thats the truth.

Thoughts?

[MeandThee29]

It was a major step for me in counselling to admit that I could not have changed the outcome after he left. A therapist had told me two years before that the relationship was going to shatter, and I didn't accept that. I was actually in an appointment with her predicting a suicide attempt when he was preparing to commit suicide. I had muted my phone, and on the way home, one of his siblings called. He did better for a time, but we separated again. He moved many states away.

We tend to blame ourselves. It's part of the dynamic of the pwBPD and the non-BPD partner.

In my personal situation, other than a miracle, I see no hope.

[gotbushels]

Hi Struggler123   

I could not have changed the outcome, it was going to end one way or another, and thats the truth.

Thoughts?

Yes, sometimes a relationship doesn't work. The BPD makes it quite a bit more difficult. No one can predict what will happen with absolute certainty. I think we all went in thinking and hoping it would work. That's not wrong and that's okay. 

I was wrong to think that, if she came back, that would have made me feel better.

Yes sometimes when people approach us again for a relationship, it does feel a little bit good. We might not consent to it--and it's not wrong to feel the way we do when that happens.

But the truth is, permanent decisions based on temporary feelings is never a good idea.

Yes it can be problematic when our feelings overcome getting what we want in the short term.

At first I could not stand the idea of her being with someone else, but now I’m slowly accepting the fact that the person I did all those things for never existed, and I was in a fantasy world.

Interesting observation. It seems when you understand how a person works beyond just the relationship, it can feel like you were having a relationship with something of a fantasy. I know a bit of what this feels like. When I understood a bit more of how the BPD worked, it did feel like I assumed too much about my idea of what "normal" was.

What was the fantasy that you thought you wanted to live--does it remind you of any conflicts from your past?   

Enjoy your peace.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Struggler, No, I doubt you could have changed the outcome.  Sad to say, most BPD relationships are not built to last.  Just the way it is.  The turmoil, in my view, is too great to sustain a r/s.  Yet that doesn't stop a lot of us from recycling, trying to get it right.  It can become a self-destructive mission and I barely bailed out before the crash landing.

LuckyJim

[Skip]

These relationships tend to end in a fiery crash with a large plume of flames. The extreme highs that attracted us in the beginning play an important part in the how far we fall at the end. Some of us have to deal with an even bigger blow, an extreme low at the end... .infidelity, custody battles, or in your case, new boyfriend and engagement.

It's hard. It's disorientating.

I admire you trying to make sense of it all. To me, this is what helped my grow from the experience. What I found is that understanding comes in steps, like a ladder, and at each step we feel we have found the answer only to realize latter that there is more to know and another step to take.

Keep reaching, enabler.  It will be worth it.

Could I have really changed the outcome?

Is this the right question?

A good relationship is like winning a Superbowl... .everything has to fall into place. Most of the time it doesn't. Forget about BPD. We all go through multiple relationships that fail before we "win the Superbowl". Some never win it.

It a hard concept to accept. Things can be 95% right and the relationship blows up. It's easier to accept when things are only 50% right. And its easier to accept when a relationship ends without a thoughtless or mean (like ghosting, infidelity, etc) ending.

"Could I have really changed the outcome?"

People with BPD have a lot more failures (as a group) than people without BPD - that is a fact and a recognized hallmark of the disorder. I exited my relationship after being told it was likely BPD (I think traits). I pieced together her history and backed it up... .I made a very hard, but right decision. Fast forward two more relationships and she found a guy and they made a go of it - they are married for 8 years. As far as I can tell, she got her life together in the end.

Did I blow it? I mean she was the most loving (at at time the most hurtful) person I ever met. Chemistry was great. Could I have really changed the outcome?

I can say, without a doubt, if I knew what I knew now and if I had all the tools on board I now have, it would have made a big difference. But I can also say that there were circumstances, and a suicide, her struggles with it, etc. - enough things that to sink the ship. A new guy, with skills, and the healing she had after our relationship were enough to get her to a "superbowl". He seems like a first class guy.

This is unsettling in a lot of ways - its easier to thing our relationship was doomed. I can say that learning to accept this unsettling view has really matured my thinking in a lot of ways - on this subject and others.

All in all, this might be an unfair question to put on yourself. Sure, you could have known better relationship skills, or not done _____ that created a big riff. You could have done more. We all could have done better. In some cases, some of use did terminal things, like get caught cheating. If we are smart, we accept the failure and we learn from them. Be careful that you don't miss out on the life lesson that is meant to be learned by this.

It also might be an unfair question to put on yourself and think if only you knew or had done ___ that the outcome would have been different. The fact is that everything didn't fall into place and there are a lot of moving parts to that. As you point out, you can't single handedly make a relationship work.

Something to ponder. You are reaching and that is the right thing.

[Struggler123]

It was a major step for me in counselling to admit that I could not have changed the outcome after he left. A therapist had told me two years before that the relationship was going to shatter, and I didn't accept that. I was actually in an appointment with her predicting a suicide attempt when he was preparing to commit suicide. I had muted my phone, and on the way home, one of his siblings called. He did better for a time, but we separated again. He moved many states away.

We tend to blame ourselves. It's part of the dynamic of the pwBPD and the non-BPD partner.

In my personal situation, other than a miracle, I see no hope.

I’m sorry for what you went through it really is true though theres not much we Nons can do, it took me a while to accept that. My ex called again just now and I don’t know if it was a good idea to pick up or not, but I did half asleep. She was saying things like nothing’s changed, i miss you, i stilll need my best friend. And I was just nonresponsive, and I realized that as much as I’d like to admit it, My people pleasing trait is a problem. Here is someone that literally made me feel so bad but yet im still in the mist of trying to hope things are different, I iust kept it cool and told her im going back to sleep. She was trying to get it out of me, but I just wouldn’t budge, she said i could still change things e.t.c

@bushels

I wanted to have a relationship without her getting so angry at me for little things. I mean I don’t know how her anger was live but on the phone it seemed just emotional anger. I didnt think much of it until, I remember she returned my stuff and that was something significant only to want the stuff back. But, long story short I did think maybe we could have a future if she could just be more patient with me and my career. I think I’ve always longed for affection and maybe thats what got me invovlved so quick.

Hey Struggler, No, I doubt you could have changed the outcome.  Sad to say, most BPD relationships are not built to last.  Just the way it is.  The turmoil, in my view, is too great to sustain a r/s.  Yet that doesn't stop a lot of us from recycling, trying to get it right.  It can become a self-destructive mission and I barely bailed out before the crash landing.

LuckyJim

That’s definitely true, even now after I spoke with her after the conversation I questioned myself thinking why did I pick up? She asked me questions like do you miss me? And I knew that none of these things mattered it was just a way to know im there. I just kept it simple and straight forward that i know she fears im going to leave but im not. I just don’t see any good coming out of this, and then she came to the best friend card and using my words and I realized that her calling me was never about me, it was just for validation but before she could open to that I just had a short convo and told her to call me later as im tryif to sleep


@Skip

Even now I feel like im falling weak because she kept calling me. Maybe by trying to be civil about the whole thing, and not using blocking was a bad idea. I really thought it was over. Even now when she called, she kept saying what if you could still change things, and thats what kinda led to me thinking about all this stuff. She kept saying that no ones as good to her as me, and that she knows i miss her too etc. I kept my head in denial but, When I asked her what good is this going to do and shes like why cant you just talk to me, you said you were different. Until eventually, i said i wasnt leaving but, things arent the same and shes like nothings changed etc. I’m sure its a temporary thing as usual and she will be back to engaged boy in a few hours. She knew if she mentioned him id hang up so she didnt say anything about that.

[Skip]

Well, long story short, I was seeing this girl for about 2 years on and off. Initially, it was amazing and the best time ever. ... //... Considering I've never been in a relationship before, this was the first. ... //... I promised myself that if she broke up with me again that it was it ... //... I went No Contact for 2 months. She traveled all the way to come see me after 2 months, and that made me melt.  It was the best 3 weeks I had hanging out with her. Then came the part of her constantly need to get married and/or put a ring on it. ... //... 2 Days before I had to leave, she told me if I was okay with her having an arrange marriage. I felt like I was no one to stop her so I said yes, if he can keep you happy. Now shes about to get married in 2 months, and shes still trying to be friends with me... .

This is a situation where you have to make a decision. And then be a strong man and live with it.

1. Do you thin you could make a life with her?

2. Are you willing to get engaged - and get married in 2 years?

3. Would you like her back but only without the enagement?

3. If no, are you willing to be a friend?

4. If yes, what are the boundaries on that?

Clearly she would rather you commit to her here and she may be playing this whole thing out to make you step up or step out. She may be playing chicken. A dangerous game.

You have no choice but to decide and love with your call.

Members can help you mange that when its clearer what the goal is.

[Cromwell]

Struggler, if I remember, your training to become a doctor? It is pretty obvious to me that wanting to help people comes as part of your personality and you tried your best with someone, what more could you have done?

My ex eventually took me for granted, she even said so herself and got to the point of being semi-derogatory about it. The kindness started to be turned into a form of stupidity or desperation. The idea of Why would I want to be with her so badly - there must be something wrong with me.

Then I too, decided to prove otherwise, and just as you said, the phone was bombed. Actually, it took a week or so.

If you are looking for justification that you couldnt change the outcome, you will get it fully from me, my experience and all that ive witnessed in my own r/s. My only "probability of success" in this BPD relationship was based entirely upon; her options at the time as well as her weighing up of the consequences of risking one option for another.

We all want our needs to be fulfilled, the difference is I am not fickle when it comes to committing to someone. I dont just feel love for a partner than chat to the sales assistant when im buying a phone and think "hmm, you might fulfill my needs better, worth a try"... .then if she does, act as if my previous partner never existed / has outgrown their utility value.

Then 3 weeks later I realise that actually, this new resource isnt sustainable enough and not what I had imagined it might be, there isnt any other opportunity ready to move on to, plan B, work backwards to the one that had hooked in before. No response? Try the next one below that phone entry.

You are being very strong considering this person played so callously with your heart, got you emotionally involved and very hurt, then went with someone else and had no consideration for how you felt.

Her phone calls are still selfish and insincere. Someone who behaves that way has no respect for self or others, and therefore, very little self esteem. She is more hurt by your disinterest in her, that she hasnt that power of control via seduction she once had and is now witnessing that it isnt working. Its not about you as much as it is how you are making her feel.

Im in the same situation, except after NC for 8 months she will have her guard up to a great extent and in that space of time was no doubt compelled to search for other sources of emotional supply, which is great, you will know deep down if you were right or wrong and go with that.

When you get to the stage of being criticised for being "too good" to a person, and twist that into a supposed "fault" thats the stage you dont listen anymore. It would be like being the top employee, producing the most profit for the company, most valuable employee, but brought into HR one day and reprimanded because you are "showing" other employees up and they feel insecure about it. Of course, it is not the employee to blame, it is a scenario of the employee in the wrong company.

You deserve far better Struggler.

[Struggler123]

This is a situation where you have to make a decision. And then be a strong man and live with it.

1. Do you thin you could make a life with her?

I wish I could answer this question straight forwardly but I will answer the best way I know how. The fantasy world where my actions and problem solving strategies are actually put in place and i’m treated with the same amount patience I give her, yes. But, if we’re talking about a world, where everything rests on my shoulder and im stressed out everytime she breaks up with me, or the threats and ultimatiums, I don’t think so and that’s the truth.

2. Are you willing to get engaged - and get married in 2 years?

I need 2 years to get my life in order, but if my partner is willing to give me a hand during my struggle, I will give her every ounce of my being. In no way am I saying marriage is a contract, but all I ever wanted in a relationship was trust, love and patience. The patience to help me the way i will help you in my time of need.

3. Would you like her back but only without the engagement? This is something I didn’t think about at all, but as quickly as she wants we’re on two different sides. It’s like that movie, how will you ever know you truly want to be with someone until you have met new people. I don’t mean this in a bad way, but I’ve never been with anyone to know what it really feels like. Most of my “flings” were short lived and I was always afraid of commitment.  But, I would like to see if things would be different this time around knowing the things I know now about her.

3. If no, are you willing to be a friend? I am not ready to be her friend because we have different definitions for this. Her idea of a friend is to give her undivided attention, and my idea of a friend is to chit chat and never really force more than a person can handle. For example, a friend that lives in China, will not get a call at 4 am telling her like I miss you talk to me. But yes, I would call that friend and be like how are you great to hear from you etc. My main focus was not be to know all the details in her life.

4. If yes, what are the boundaries on that? Boundaries never worked well, this is why, I feel like I am in this mess in the first place because I didnt want to act like this ahole who was just too selfish because I wanted to be the bigger person. Although, I finally reached my resolution to work on myself. I just feel like being friends with her will bring me back to the same old stuff. I think the problem is itsa fresh thing, so for me its something im not open to.

Clearly she would rather you commit to her here and she may be playing this whole thing out to make you step up or step out. She may be playing chicken. A dangerous game.

You have no choice but to decide and love with your call.

Members can help you mange that when its clearer what the goal is.


Thats what I don’t understand. She says she never lies to me, why not just be honest and end all the games. I’ve seen her drop friends, and I just don’t want that to happen to me either. I know it sounds selfish, but no one likes to be rejected like that. Its something I have to work on. But, im slowly figuring myself out. I think maybe this is a sign to just not think much into it. I remember telling her no matter what I did it was never enough and thats reality.

[Struggler123]

Struggler, if I remember, your training to become a doctor? It is pretty obvious to me that wanting to help people comes as part of your personality and you tried your best with someone, what more could you have done?

My ex eventually took me for granted, she even said so herself and got to the point of being semi-derogatory about it. The kindness started to be turned into a form of stupidity or desperation. The idea of Why would I want to be with her so badly - there must be something wrong with me.

Then I too, decided to prove otherwise, and just as you said, the phone was bombed. Actually, it took a week or so.

If you are looking for justification that you couldnt change the outcome, you will get it fully from me, my experience and all that ive witnessed in my own r/s. My only "probability of success" in this BPD relationship was based entirely upon; her options at the time as well as her weighing up of the consequences of risking one option for another.

We all want our needs to be fulfilled, the difference is I am not fickle when it comes to committing to someone. I dont just feel love for a partner than chat to the sales assistant when im buying a phone and think "hmm, you might fulfill my needs better, worth a try"... .then if she does, act as if my previous partner never existed / has outgrown their utility value.

Then 3 weeks later I realise that actually, this new resource isnt sustainable enough and not what I had imagined it might be, there isnt any other opportunity ready to move on to, plan B, work backwards to the one that had hooked in before. No response? Try the next one below that phone entry.

You are being very strong considering this person played so callously with your heart, got you emotionally involved and very hurt, then went with someone else and had no consideration for how you felt.

Her phone calls are still selfish and insincere. Someone who behaves that way has no respect for self or others, and therefore, very little self esteem. She is more hurt by your disinterest in her, that she hasnt that power of control via seduction she once had and is now witnessing that it isnt working. Its not about you as much as it is how you are making her feel.

Im in the same situation, except after NC for 8 months she will have her guard up to a great extent and in that space of time was no doubt compelled to search for other sources of emotional supply, which is great, you will know deep down if you were right or wrong and go with that.

When you get to the stage of being criticised for being "too good" to a person, and twist that into a supposed "fault" thats the stage you dont listen anymore. It would be like being the top employee, producing the most profit for the company, most valuable employee, but brought into HR one day and reprimanded because you are "showing" other employees up and they feel insecure about it. Of course, it is not the employee to blame, it is a scenario of the employee in the wrong company.

You deserve far better Struggler.

Yes , good memory. It’s a inner trait I can never turn off. Thank you for your validation, honestly your stronger than I am. You went through so much and you still were able to talk about it. That’s what makes the difference. I am the same way, even now yes I am meeting new people, but I believe in loyalty, I could never treat these people the same way as you put it. My conscious just doesn’t allow me to and why would it? You give honesty and you get honesty. I still have hope that things will get better for her but I’m not so sure I can be the one to do that. I feel like once I give my 100% into something, I have no balance and I don’t look for multiple places to fulfill my needs. I’m really glad you understand. It means a lot. I think we both deserve better. When you said that, I remembered how my ex used to say that, and despite all my efforts to tell her like no, I like you for yourself, she still believed that it was a problem and would break up with me. I never spoke about the negatives because my memory wanted to remember her as someone that really cared about me, but its okay, we both know our intentions were in the right place just couldn’t be viewable to them. Thank you so much. She’ll probably call again tomorrow, and by then I can just stick to my guard.

[Cromwell]

Yes , good memory. It’s a inner trait I can never turn off. Thank you for your validation, honestly your stronger than I am. You went through so much and you still were able to talk about it. That’s what makes the difference. I am the same way, even now yes I am meeting new people, but I believe in loyalty, I could never treat these people the same way as you put it. My conscious just doesn’t allow me to and why would it? You give honesty and you get honesty. I still have hope that things will get better for her but I’m not so sure I can be the one to do that. I feel like once I give my 100% into something, I have no balance and I don’t look for multiple places to fulfill my needs. I’m really glad you understand. It means a lot. I think we both deserve better. When you said that, I remembered how my ex used to say that, and despite all my efforts to tell her like no, I like you for yourself, she still believed that it was a problem and would break up with me. I never spoke about the negatives because my memory wanted to remember her as someone that really cared about me, but its okay, we both know our intentions were in the right place just couldn’t be viewable to them. Thank you so much. She’ll probably call again tomorrow, and by then I can just stick to my guard.

This really sticks out for me.

The condition - or should I say - one of the known traits is that of identity confusion. My ex had this. It is where I start to realise problems of the "i love you" or "I like you for yourself" and then experiencing a push away.

I can imagine in my exs mind the unsaid reply "how can you love me, you dont even know me - you only know what ive chosen to show you, or mirrored yourself to you, hell I dont even know who I am to begin with".

therefore with that line of thinking it extends to - how can they believe they are loved even liked, when they have presented a facade of what they expect you to like or love and not reveal the true self.

Id like to have thought that I was able to see through the act, the mirror, and tell myself "oh well, I know that part is just your way of doing things cause of your condition, but deep inside I see that true loving person, just very hurt and troubled and trying to protect yourself". Ive told her in not as many words before.

Yet its possibly just scratching the surface, there was some identity issues going on that I havent the skill, knowledge or compulsion to try to fix.

Ive got a lot more progress detaching my own self from trying to establish; self blame factors, emotions, or facts. Ive moved on when I see the probability of success of this relationship in statistical terms and the result is that the probability of success is nowhere near even a place id attempt to try, based on what I now know.

Its why I dont beat myself up each day for the fact I didnt know what I had gotten myself into.

Its the same probability of success if I was asked to diagnose a patient based on the limited amount I have learned so far. Probability of success is that id be sending someone with an ingrown toe nail for an MRI scan. In short, its not my fault for not knowing or being in a situation that the equivalent person would never expect to be able to manage. You know yourself that this is by far one of the most extreme relationships you could have encountered, it took me awhile to get my head around that and stop basing the outcome on what would have been a normal one, or basing her on normal.

Even if you were an expert on BPD, that, in itself does not even guarantee any form of successful outcome, it would just make the statistics slightly more favourable that you could tolerate it up to the point that hopefully some treatment could commence parallel to the r/s.

My hope is that you get over this and lead as normal a life as possible. Regardless of someone twisting that unhelpfully into a distortion of "no such thing as normal" bla bla. Regardless of that, this relationship is not a form to underestimate, it can at times appear normal on the surface, that just makes it all the more dangerous.

What I already believe and Ive read your posts since the start is that you are a strong person to have untangled yourself and avoided worse. I think I would have done the same if my life at the time I met her hadnt been so chaotic regardless of her adding to it. Every time I start to lose a little bit of my previous good sleep, or spend too much time thinking, talking or writing about her, when I could be progressing elsewhere in life, I dont disregard they are important. You have the power to decide if the months would turn to years will turn to decades. But look at the probability of success and probability of getting stress related symptoms and the probability of damaging your health, physical as well as mentally, the longer it goes on.

Facts are for investigators. Emotions are for therapists. Ive got nothing to investigate or reflect on (anymore) in terms of looking into her past. Yes Cicero said, learn about history so as not to repeat the same mistakes. I take that advice to the point of, ive learned enough about BPD to avoid anyone with it in the future. Theres not much more to have learned than that.

it is clear as day that the statistics on any commited r/s with my ex ever been successful whereby id find my needs for happiness fulfilled is just reckless form of gambling to go ahead and play what I see as a variant of russian roulette with.

My ex giving me the time of day after I ghosted her, is not a sign to me of her newfound self development and wishing to do better this time around, its a sign of her acceptance of guilt to have caused it in the first place. Reasonable minded people dont just accept someone back into their life, pick up where they left off, after being ghosted by them intentionally (I told her so) for 8 months, without even an explanation of what happened. Too abnormal, by my standards anyway, and I dont put myself down for trying, but there comes a point when you have to accept you have learned enough to know that your actions are no longer based on lack of knowledge but that of stupidity and thats where I ran out of excuses for myself.

anyway, if I had to put money on anyone getting over this, im backing you struggler  I know where I see strength, I know also how hard it is. Best wishes

[Struggler123]

This really sticks out for me.

The condition - or should I say - one of the known traits is that of identity confusion. My ex had this. It is where I start to realise problems of the "i love you" or "I like you for yourself" and then experiencing a push away.

I can imagine in my exs mind the unsaid reply "how can you love me, you dont even know me - you only know what ive chosen to show you, or mirrored yourself to you, hell I dont even know who I am to begin with".

therefore with that line of thinking it extends to - how can they believe they are loved even liked, when they have presented a facade of what they expect you to like or love and not reveal the true self.

Id like to have thought that I was able to see through the act, the mirror, and tell myself "oh well, I know that part is just your way of doing things cause of your condition, but deep inside I see that true loving person, just very hurt and troubled and trying to protect yourself". Ive told her in not as many words before.

Yet its possibly just scratching the surface, there was some identity issues going on that I havent the skill, knowledge or compulsion to try to fix.

Ive got a lot more progress detaching my own self from trying to establish; self blame factors, emotions, or facts. Ive moved on when I see the probability of success of this relationship in statistical terms and the result is that the probability of success is nowhere near even a place id attempt to try, based on what I now know.

Its why I dont beat myself up each day for the fact I didnt know what I had gotten myself into.

Its the same probability of success if I was asked to diagnose a patient based on the limited amount I have learned so far. Probability of success is that id be sending someone with an ingrown toe nail for an MRI scan. In short, its not my fault for not knowing or being in a situation that the equivalent person would never expect to be able to manage. You know yourself that this is by far one of the most extreme relationships you could have encountered, it took me awhile to get my head around that and stop basing the outcome on what would have been a normal one, or basing her on normal.

Even if you were an expert on BPD, that, in itself does not even guarantee any form of successful outcome, it would just make the statistics slightly more favourable that you could tolerate it up to the point that hopefully some treatment could commence parallel to the r/s.

My hope is that you get over this and lead as normal a life as possible. Regardless of someone twisting that unhelpfully into a distortion of "no such thing as normal" bla bla. Regardless of that, this relationship is not a form to underestimate, it can at times appear normal on the surface, that just makes it all the more dangerous.

What I already believe and Ive read your posts since the start is that you are a strong person to have untangled yourself and avoided worse. I think I would have done the same if my life at the time I met her hadnt been so chaotic regardless of her adding to it. Every time I start to lose a little bit of my previous good sleep, or spend too much time thinking, talking or writing about her, when I could be progressing elsewhere in life, I dont disregard they are important. You have the power to decide if the months would turn to years will turn to decades. But look at the probability of success and probability of getting stress related symptoms and the probability of damaging your health, physical as well as mentally, the longer it goes on.

Facts are for investigators. Emotions are for therapists. Ive got nothing to investigate or reflect on (anymore) in terms of looking into her past. Yes Cicero said, learn about history so as not to repeat the same mistakes. I take that advice to the point of, ive learned enough about BPD to avoid anyone with it in the future. Theres not much more to have learned than that.

it is clear as day that the statistics on any commited r/s with my ex ever been successful whereby id find my needs for happiness fulfilled is just reckless form of gambling to go ahead and play what I see as a variant of russian roulette with.

My ex giving me the time of day after I ghosted her, is not a sign to me of her newfound self development and wishing to do better this time around, its a sign of her acceptance of guilt to have caused it in the first place. Reasonable minded people dont just accept someone back into their life, pick up where they left off, after being ghosted by them intentionally (I told her so) for 8 months, without even an explanation of what happened. Too abnormal, by my standards anyway, and I dont put myself down for trying, but there comes a point when you have to accept you have learned enough to know that your actions are no longer based on lack of knowledge but that of stupidity and thats where I ran out of excuses for myself.

anyway, if I had to put money on anyone getting over this, im backing you struggler  I know where I see strength, I know also how hard it is. Best wishes

I can’t begin to tell you how much Respect I have for you. Even after everything you still choose to be the bigger person. Through thick and thin, if she couldnt see that then i’m sorry its daylight clear that it was too much and you gave her the best months. It’s her fault and whether she feels guilty or not, that doesn’t matter. We are responsible for the way we treat ourselves. I know no two BPD people are alike, but there comes a time when you have to realize is it really worth it. I went back to my old posts and you helped me a lot. Your comments stood out. It reminded me of myself, trying to understand it all. I was long distance for a while so it was handled better, but ultimately the outcome is the same.  No amount of words can make up for it. The reason why I have been posting a lot is because I began questioning my own sanity and whether I was doing the right thing. After reading your comments, thank you for guiding me in the right direction. Thank you for believing in me, it means a lot. The support I have gained through this forum is amazing, I wish her the best, but I’m not trying to move backwards, and I hope I can keep this same attitude,  like they say work on yourself so much you dont have to feel weak in the presence of anyone. Thank you Cromwell

[Cromwell]

I can’t begin to tell you how much Respect I have for you. Even after everything you still choose to be the bigger person. Through thick and thin, if she couldnt see that then i’m sorry its daylight clear that it was too much and you gave her the best months. It’s her fault and whether she feels guilty or not, that doesn’t matter. We are responsible for the way we treat ourselves. I know no two BPD people are alike, but there comes a time when you have to realize is it really worth it. I went back to my old posts and you helped me a lot. Your comments stood out. It reminded me of myself, trying to understand it all. I was long distance for a while so it was handled better, but ultimately the outcome is the same.  No amount of words can make up for it. The reason why I have been posting a lot is because I began questioning my own sanity and whether I was doing the right thing. After reading your comments, thank you for guiding me in the right direction. Thank you for believing in me, it means a lot. The support I have gained through this forum is amazing, I wish her the best, but I’m not trying to move backwards, and I hope I can keep this same attitude,  like they say work on yourself so much you dont have to feel weak in the presence of anyone. Thank you Cromwell

Gaslighting
Manipulation
Keeping you in the FOG

just three of the nasty little poision vials that get dipped into.

My anti-dote was, time apart to fight the infection off. Shes back, but just hanging in the shadows to deliver another entry route for a new strain when my guard is down.

Ive thrown her a few low curve balls in my texts, enough to make her think twice, ive got to the stage you are at, its why I feel a lot of understanding, we are very much at the same stage of battle. im keeping her long distance, not that it stops anything, but it does reduce her effectiveness. She cant seduce by her physical presence anymore, not that she does much for me anymore regardless, but the advantage of text only is the lack of ability to expose you to their rhetoric in real time, such as when she calls you and you have to respond and listen, they can pick up verbal cues, hesitations, get into your mind, probe for the weak points like a port:scanner hacker would. they just play with the mind using their well rehearsed scripts that have served them until they met us.

however, the disadvantage also goes on their side, they have the opportunity to trip up, its why they want you to be in a position of being not well enough, or they bombard and distract you with sweetness alternating with cold behaviour. Cant analyse anything when your in the middle of smoke and mirrors.

Yours is inherently weak and a coward, her strength comes from triangulation, getting others on board to do her dirty work. Same as mines, ive figured out the methods to her madness ages ago, just lacked the will or knowledge of what to do with it. I was sleeping with the enemy.

Enemy
1 : one that is antagonistic to another; especially : one seeking to injure, overthrow, or confound an opponent
2 : something harmful or deadly

    alcohol was his greatest enemy

3 a : a military adversary
b : a hostile unit or force
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/enemy

I advise some asymetric behaviour to confuse her, it will keep her at bay. You did the tactical retreat, it didnt work she can still reach you as does mine.

best we can do is keep them at arms length and regain strength. Long term, I expect to classic british military tactics of divide and conquer, when her alliances elsewhere crumble apart as they do historically, mines can stay as my tropical little unproductive colony until she gets sick enough of my mindless drivel I send her to finally declare independence and be gone permanently out my life by her own will.

Struggler, comrade. you are a warrior not a survivor, never forget this.  

[Skip]

Members can help you mange that when its clearer what the goal is.

Thats what I don’t understand. She says she never lies to me, why not just be honest and end all the games. I’ve seen her drop friends, and I just don’t want that to happen to me either. I know it sounds selfish, but no one likes to be rejected like that. Its something I have to work on. But, im slowly figuring myself out. I think maybe this is a sign to just not think much into it. I remember telling her no matter what I did it was never enough and thats reality.

Struggler123, thanks for answering the questions about how things actually play out.  It helps.

I think a lot of us struggle (no play on words intended) because we have a lot of input from the relationship and can't hone in on the most important "facts".

Two parts of  your story really stand out for me.

1. The engagement. Lots of women reach a point where they want a man to "put a ring on it." However, to orchestrate an arranged marriage and try to barter with you on an engagement would be a deal breaker for me. First, I wouldn't want to have a life partner who uses scorched earth tactics to get her way (people are going to get hurt, no matter what). Second, if I concede, I reward this behavior and lock myself up for more. 2.First serious relationship Don't buy the first house you see.    Sure, if this was a relationship that was like heaven, but it's not, its a "fixer upper" and you have no experience in knowing what fixed truly looks like. Chalk this one off as a learning experience.

If you could just continue on as a couple and learn more about each other, that would be far safer - but you are way past that now.

So what to do now?

I rarely recommend "no contact", but I think in your case, it makes sense. First, she has promised herself to another man and men of character exit at that point. Second, she is exploiting your thoughtfulness to stay in contact.  

I advise some asymetric behaviour to confuse her, it will keep her at bay. You did the tactical retreat, it didnt work she can still reach you as does mine.

   Hey Crom, she is contacting you because you appraoched her on a bus and gave her your contact information.

Guys, just be a man, stand tall, and say, "I've thought about this. I've enjoyed our time together. It didn't work for us. You're engaged now and I'm respecting that and moving on."

Struggler123, if she continues to contact you, don't engage. It will be awkward, but if you sound resolute, she will be gone soon enough.

This is hard advice, and as I said, I rarely suggest no contact, but this is one of those messy situations that needs that level of cleanup.

I not that you said this feels like failure. It is. A lot of messy things happen in relationships and we need to learn from them. Maybe you didn't handle everything "just right". That is one thing. This is different than a fatal flaw or deal breaker... .those we have to walk away from, no matter how hard.

Good mental health is hard.  

[Cromwell]

   Hey Crom, she is contacting you because you appraoched her on a bus and gave her your contact information.

Guys, just be a man, stand tall, and say, "I've thought about this. I've enjoyed our time together. It didn't work for us. You're engaged now and I'm respecting that and moving on."

Im working up to this point - it is strange how nauseating I feel over something I could do naturally in past r/s, there really has been something brainwashed in me by this girl that im not allowed - at the very least - to psychic-ly lose a connection. Theres not much going on, and I think I just need to find the right moment to just make a clean break, none of this ghosting NC, none of the cryptic talk, false silly talk, I need to be clear yet honest and tactful at the same time. It would help me to conclude this on a good note and show her a level or respect and maturity that had became virtually extinct. I think ive been brainwashed to never discard her based on the times that I did try, she would react so strongly and hit my own emotional buttons, and I ended up going back to her, or split up for a very short time and went back. Please Skip I want her away permanent but it needs to be in a way that I can look back later and not feel messed up about. The sands of time in this "r/s" have almost trickled out the last grains I really can sense that now more than ever before. thank you

[Struggler123]

Struggler123, thanks for answering the questions about how things actually play out.  It helps.

I think a lot of us struggle (no play on words intended) because we have a lot of input from the relationship and can't hone in on the most important "facts".

Two parts of  your story really stand out for me.

1. The engagement. Lots of women reach a point where they want a man to "put a ring on it." However, to orchestrate an arranged marriage and try to barter with you on an engagement would be a deal breaker for me. First, I wouldn't want to have a life partner who uses scorched earth tactics to get her way (people are going to get hurt, no matter what). Second, if I concede, I reward this behavior and lock myself up for more. 2.First serious relationship Don't buy the first house you see.    Sure, if this was a relationship that was like heaven, but it's not, its a "fixer upper" and you have no experience in knowing what fixed truly looks like. Chalk this one off as a learning experience.

If you could just continue on as a couple and learn more about each other, that would be far safer - but you are way past that now.

So what to do now?

I rarely recommend "no contact", but I think in your case, it makes sense. First, she has promised herself to another man and men of character exit at that point. Second, she is exploiting your thoughtfulness to stay in contact.  

   Hey Crom, she is contacting you because you appraoched her on a bus and gave her your contact information.

Guys, just be a man, stand tall, and say, "I've thought about this. I've enjoyed our time together. It didn't work for us. You're engaged now and I'm respecting that and moving on."

Struggler123, if she continues to contact you, don't engage. It will be awkward, but if you sound resolute, she will be gone soon enough.

This is hard advice, and as I said, I rarely suggest no contact, but this is one of those messy situations that needs that level of cleanup.

I not that you said this feels like failure. It is. A lot of messy things happen in relationships and we need to learn from them. Maybe you didn't handle everything "just right". That is one thing. This is different than a fatal flaw or deal breaker... .those we have to walk away from, no matter how hard.

Good mental health is hard.  

I read the point about the engagement 2-3x and it really made an impact on me. It made me think that I have always been about principles, and I would never orchestrate my needs on anyone, BPD or not, if its a manipulating situation, you have to know when to walk out. She hasn’t contacted me after our phone call where I indicated the points that you said but in a more less way if that makes sense. I wasn’t trying to make myself out to be the bigger person because I have already played my part. As for her contacting me again, I’ve come to far on the detached side to fall back again. She made her choice and I have told her that time after time I respect that. I’m not really sure what she wanted, I’m just assuming it was an impulse because believing that is better than thinking she’s trying to get back together because at the end, its gonna be back to square 1 and if the needs arent fulfilled eventually ill be discarded, and I’ll be in a battle with another guy and in this situation no one wins. I don’t call it failure anymore simply because she knows I was good to her, and thats all I ever wanted to do. This is the cleanest break up, and I’m grateful for that.


Honestly Cromwell, I think its normal to feel what you’re feeling. We all have been there at one point or another.  Everyone has this false image that you can suddenly just feel like this person never existed, its not that simple. Caring for someone is normal it shows how vulnerable we can be. Only problem is some people take advantage of the kindness. I am no one to give advice, but I think that instead of doing no contact in your case do it little by little. Trust me, it does get better just takes time.

I do feel confused at times when I recieve a call or text, but I’ve started thinking of it as like its just an impulse and itll be back to normal, if I don’t engage. And if for some odd reason I do engage, I don’t like the words define the situation. I’m not sure if this is the right way to do no contact, but it sets the stage and avoids dramatic consequences.

[Struggler123]

Update:

I think that sometimes the answer is in front of us but we don’t want to take the next step because we want a clear conscious. I think that after our last conversation her impulses died out, and I was cleared off the radar, because I didn’t reply to her in the way that was expected. I did what any good guy would do and tell her the truth. After our phone conversation when I posted this thread, she blocked me. I’m sure its another impuslive decision, does it bother me? Sure. No one likes to be blocked. But, the truth is, I feel more confident about my decision. I think this was the right thing, and she made that decision for me. That’s the thing with BPD, “let me remove you because no one is allowed to do that to me.” I’m not angry, or sad, I’m thankful for the memories, but sometimes we have to just let go. We can still be in love with the fantasy and still let go, thats what acceptance is.

I’ll still be writing on here every now and then. But I am thankful for how far I’ve come.

[Cromwell]

Update:

I think that sometimes the answer is in front of us but we don’t want to take the next step because we want a clear conscious. I think that after our last conversation her impulses died out, and I was cleared off the radar, because I didn’t reply to her in the way that was expected. I did what any good guy would do and tell her the truth. After our phone conversation when I posted this thread, she blocked me. I’m sure its another impuslive decision, does it bother me? Sure. No one likes to be blocked. But, the truth is, I feel more confident about my decision. I think this was the right thing, and she made that decision for me. That’s the thing with BPD, “let me remove you because no one is allowed to do that to me.” I’m not angry, or sad, I’m thankful for the memories, but sometimes we have to just let go. We can still be in love with the fantasy and still let go, thats what acceptance is.

I’ll still be writing on here every now and then. But I am thankful for how far I’ve come.

Im so happy for you Struggler.

It is strange how our journeys have went slightly different routes but I feel i ended up at the same point you are now.

Having her block me and delete me would have made everything easier, that has been the biggest problem, its hard for me to want her out my life, knowing she doesnt want me to out of  it.

What I highlighted in your post stands out as completely how I feel about it.

I wont be around anymore, but I want to thank you, and let you know that you inspired me as much as you say I have done for you. I wish you all the best in your future.

Regards Cromwell