BPD Conversations (Sort of in amusement - although real)

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

BPD conversations:
(1)

ME: I just got the email that there's going to be three deliveries sometime this afternoon!
HIM: Oh, are there?
(He starts to get dressed in outdoor clothes)
ME: Are you going out with John today?
HIM: Yes, I planned to, but would you prefer I stay in and help with the deliveries?
ME: Well yes, in truth I'd prefer that
HIM: I'm sure you WOULD want me to stay in!
ME: What do you mean?
HIM: You don't trust me to go out! You want to keep me in the house 24/7
ME: When do I ever keep you in the house? How many times have you gone out this week already?
HIM: I know, but you don't WANT me to go out, ever! So you say I have to stay in today, not go out with John even though I planned it.
ME: Wait, you ASKED me if I'd prefer you to stay.
HIM: But the REAL reason is you're stopping me going out!
ME: I wasn't going to say a word, but you offered to stay. I wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise.
HIM: Well look me in the eye and tell me honestly it's ONLY because of the deliveries
ME: It's only because of the deliveries
HIM: You SAY that, but you're just stopping me going out. Angry shouting: I will NOT be a prisoner in my own home!
(me leaving room to try to calm down.)

(2)
(long discussion about how low and useless he feels, with me listening and sympathising)
Him: and I'm sorry for the things I said yesterday. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings
Me: That's okay, I understand. It just makes me feel hopeless when I can't help you. I only speak out of love, I'm trying to help! I'm not judging or criticising - really I'm not.
Him: It doesn't sound that way
Me: But it's said in love - genuine love CARES, and I care about your health, your wellbeing... .
Him: I can't help it
Me: I KNOW that, but you managed to kick the smoking and drinking once and you were so proud, and so was I. Why go back to it now?
Him: I don't know
Me: You promised you wouldn't buy any more yesterday - yet you did - and you know we can't afford it
Him: sulking
Me: It just makes me feel like I can't trust you, and without trust it's hard to have a relationship that works
Him: Shouting: If you can't trust me you'd better leave me and get it over with! That's what you REALLY want!
Me: I didn't say that... .(he interrupts)
Him: You've been TRYING to get rid of me for years, and THIS is how you're going to do it
Me: (hurt and getting angry) All I said was I wanted to be able to trust you... .
Him: SHOUTING MORE: I can't say a THING to you without you TWISTING IT, I can't open my MOUTH with you!
Me: (gasp!) YOU can't say a thing?
Him: I'm going for a shower!

[New+Scared]

BPD conversations:
(1)

ME: I just got the email that there's going to be three deliveries sometime this afternoon!
HIM: Oh, are there?
(He starts to get dressed in outdoor clothes)
ME: Are you going out with John today?
HIM: Yes, I planned to, but would you prefer I stay in and help with the deliveries?
ME: Well yes, in truth I'd prefer that
HIM: I'm sure you WOULD want me to stay in!
ME: What do you mean?
HIM: You don't trust me to go out! You want to keep me in the house 24/7
ME: When do I ever keep you in the house? How many times have you gone out this week already?
HIM: I know, but you don't WANT me to go out, ever! So you say I have to stay in today, not go out with John even though I planned it.
ME: Wait, you ASKED me if I'd prefer you to stay.
HIM: But the REAL reason is you're stopping me going out!
ME: I wasn't going to say a word, but you offered to stay. I wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise.
HIM: Well look me in the eye and tell me honestly it's ONLY because of the deliveries
ME: It's only because of the deliveries
HIM: You SAY that, but you're just stopping me going out. Angry shouting: I will NOT be a prisoner in my own home!
(me leaving room to try to calm down.)

(2)
(long discussion about how low and useless he feels, with me listening and sympathising)
Him: and I'm sorry for the things I said yesterday. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings
Me: That's okay, I understand. It just makes me feel hopeless when I can't help you. I only speak out of love, I'm trying to help! I'm not judging or criticising - really I'm not.
Him: It doesn't sound that way
Me: But it's said in love - genuine love CARES, and I care about your health, your wellbeing... .
Him: I can't help it
Me: I KNOW that, but you managed to kick the smoking and drinking once and you were so proud, and so was I. Why go back to it now?
Him: I don't know
Me: You promised you wouldn't buy any more yesterday - yet you did - and you know we can't afford it
Him: sulking
Me: It just makes me feel like I can't trust you, and without trust it's hard to have a relationship that works
Him: Shouting: If you can't trust me you'd better leave me and get it over with! That's what you REALLY want!
Me: I didn't say that... .(he interrupts)
Him: You've been TRYING to get rid of me for years, and THIS is how you're going to do it
Me: (hurt and getting angry) All I said was I wanted to be able to trust you... .
Him: SHOUTING MORE: I can't say a THING to you without you TWISTING IT, I can't open my MOUTH with you!
Me: (gasp!) YOU can't say a thing?
Him: I'm going for a shower!

[formflier]

HIM: Yes, I planned to, but would you prefer I stay in and help with the deliveries?
ME: Well yes, in truth I'd prefer that
HIM: I'm sure you WOULD want me to stay in!
ME: What do you mean?
 

This was the turning point.  Can you back up a bit and see it? 

Remember... there is an emotional mind and a rational mind working here. 

What "error" do you think the rational mind made that led to the conversation that followed?  Very important that you "see" this...

FF

[New+Scared]

This was the turning point.  Can you back up a bit and see it?  Remember... there is an emotional mind and a rational mind working here.  What "error" do you think the rational mind made that led to the conversation that followed?  Very important that you "see" this...

I would appreciate your insights. I do instinctively know that this was the turning point, but I'd like you to help me really see it.

I know from experience that any straight contradiction will cause a flareup. So I try to avoid simple disagreement, even with the most bizarre accusation. This was my way of stepping away from a contradiction in which I don't say, 'you're crazy, I never stop you going out!'

These may not have been my exact words at this stage. I can't remember exactly and the whole conversation was longer, but it flowed in this kind of way. I was trying to keep the lines of communication open by asking him to explain.

Please help me see.

(Also, the 'rules of interaction' , even if I can recall them at any given moment, go out the window when I'm so provoked that I start to feel wounded and angry. I don't know any way yet to keep my emotions under control to the extent that he doesn't hurt me. On the occasion in question I had started to tear up so I had to leave the room. I have to go away to deal with my anger in private, otherwise I know I'm going to escalate the situation into something out of control and unbearable. But I can't be a robot. I wish I were.)

[Notwendy]

You don’t have to be a robot. You can and should feel your feelings - they are your guide. A wise MC advised us that if we are feeling HALT - hungry, angry, lonely, tired ( and emotional in general ) we are not in an emotional place to have a conversation. This isn’t weakness - it’s biology - we can’t really be emotionally present when we are not at our emotional best. If we feel that way - we should excuse ourself from the conversation and go calm down.

This created a change in the pattern of this type of conversations that seemed to go in circles with no resolution. Both people get accustomed to such conversations. It takes two - so when I calmly said “I hear what you are saying but I need to collect my thought before I reply “ and then left the room- the conversation could not continue.

There were other steps to take but this was a first - calming down when triggered is a good skill to learn.

[Notwendy]

The other suggestion is about kitchen sinking - bringing everything in but the kitchen sink into a conversation. Your H did this by bringing in the “you don’t want me to leave “ accusation when you were talking about help with the deliveries. This derails the conversation.

I dealt with similar accusations. Basically my H wanted to pursue his hobbies and I wanted him to spend time with me and the kids. He then probably felt a bit of obligation but projected his feelings on me. Instead of “I should help but I want to go out “ it was “you don’t want me to go out “. See this for what it is. What you did was respond to the projection as if it were true. This is JADE. Once you can see this - stay on topic.

First -when you feel emotional - politely excuse yourself.

Once you get better at staying on topic- once he says “you just want me to stay in “. Don’t respond to that. Take it back to the deliveries “I understand you made plans with John. The deliveries are this morning. I’d appreciate your help with them if you choose to be here “ . At this point it’s up to him. I’d probably leave the conversation at this time .

Don’t expect to be good at this all at once. It takes practice. You’ve been having these conversations for a long time. Sometimes you may slip back - don’t worry and stay the course. In time you will get it.

[formflier]

I would appreciate your insights. I do instinctively know that this was the turning point, but I'd like you to help me really see it.

It's good that you kinda see it and realize it was the turning point.  I'm a words guy and I would much rather help you "understand" it and the "why" behind it.  

A metaphor that has helped me is to think of talking with a pwBPD as someone that is from a foreign country and a person that has a "native tongue" that is different from me.  So... .like I'm an English speaker raised in the USA (which I am), talking to someone from an eastern culture.  Not that either "culture" is good or bad intrinsically, but the rules and "norms" are different.  Ignore those at your peril and at the peril of your relationship.

My goal is to help you "see" and/or understand the different norms that are at play in each of your lives.

I know from experience that any straight contradiction will cause a flareup. So I try to avoid simple disagreement, even with the most bizarre accusation. This was my way of stepping away from a contradiction in which I don't say, 'you're crazy, I never stop you going out!'

This is good.  What I think is unsaid here is you know this is a  sore spot to avoid, but you are not sure why.  I hope to "flip" this for you so understand the "rules" and can use those to your advantage to change or improve the relationship.


What is invalidation?

I was trying to keep the lines of communication open by asking him to explain.

That's a very "rational" way of talking.  Sometimes pwBPD speak this way, other times they are talking with pure emotion (of the moment) and sometimes they are on a spectrum in between those.  Further more if you asked them if they were "being emotional" they may get offended or deny it (and truly believe it).  

Many times they are so carried away with "the moment" that they can't believe they ever felt another way.  Then they do the "feelings equals facts" thing.

Perhaps a better way to keep comms open

 

Please help me see.

Sure... I'll help you understand.  Really it will be the community hear and many of the wonderful learning materials we have in place.  

 

Even more discussion

when I'm so provoked that I start to feel wounded and angry.

It's good you understand this was about you.  I hope to help you find an earlier place to leave the conversation.

I don't know any way yet to keep my emotions under control to the extent that he doesn't hurt me.

What do you think of this concept?

What if you "listened" this way?

 I had to leave the room.

There are ways to disengage.  Consider this list from another poster on these boards.

For that reason I would suggest practicing phrases that stop conversations.   practice with a friend or a therapist... .some one you trust... .

• I'm not able to have this conversation today.   Let's talk about it next week.

• I would like to get back to you on that.

• this isn't really anything I want to discuss
• I think I have spent all the energy I can right now.

• I believe it is time to stop this conversation.

• We've spent enough time on this issue, let's table it for now

I'd suggest that once you feel confident that you can stop a conversation that is running away with you... .you can feel more confident getting your message across.

 

I've loaded you up with lots of stuff to read.  I'm interested in your thoughts after you have worked through this. 

Biggest surprise?

A place where you saw yourself and were happy about how you "did" a conversation.

A place where you were like... .uh oh... .

Anything else that comes to mind...  

FF

[New+Scared]

I'd like you to know that I'm reading the articles you suggested, although it's taking me time and much effort. Just wanted to say I'm not ignoring your advice.

The one that reaches me most is "empathetic listening".

However, the drawback for me is that my own emotional state is damaged to such a degree that further accusations, implications, rejections and suspicions [even perhaps the milder ones] are making me so internally angry and upset that I can't bring myself to use validations and empathy even when I know how to.

To be honest I've reached the point of [excuse me] F that, who cares?

My solution at the moment (if solution it be) is to avoid those conversations as much as possible. I can't take it much longer.

[formflier]

Totally understandable.

I've lowered the amount of validation that I try as well.  I still will use it for "clean up", especially if I was the instigator, or if there is something going on around kids.

Other than that... .I focus on "being me"  (note... I still avoid "invalidation")

I don't avoid conversations, however I am "honest" about them.

"I'm willing to continue this conversation in my therapists office... "  (then I don't debate it or argue if it's reasonable)

"I won't continue this conversation with accusations between us... ." (see I don't say she accused me... I just state the issue and that I will act accordingly)  she can connect dots or not.

Many time she does connect them.

Avoiding conversations by running away is not a good long term solution IMHO.  Standing up for yourself, then detaching from a conversation is healthier.

Granted... you may have to listen to 30 seconds of blather.  Consistency is key.  Over time they will figure out that what "used to work for them"  no longer does.  Then things will shift... .

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Avoiding invalidation is my best strategy. What didn’t occur to me at first was how easy it is to invalidate my husband.

I’ve got a very thick skin and can tolerate teasing and sarcasm and can easily give back in equal measure. For a pwBPD with a shaky self image and a heavy burden of shame, these lighthearted joking comments can readily be perceived as criticism.

Also I was in debate club in high school and I enjoy a competitive argument with a peer. It didn’t occur to me that by advancing my point of view and undermining his, I was “attacking” him. Hey he’s a lawyer—I figured he’d be used to this. Well, apparently he wasn’t, outside a work environment, and even within one, he did his best to avoid litigation and was perpetually stressed in his job—not a good fit for such a sensitive soul.

So merely by avoiding invalidation, and quickly fixing things should I suspect that even a benign comment was perceived as an attack, I really don’t have to do much else to keep my relationship working on a peaceful and happy level.