I just don't know anymore - I'm exhasusted

[Sportyman]

I posted a few weeks ago regarding my marraige falling apart after some rage behavior from my newly wed udBPDwife. We've been separated for almost a month as she is living with her dad. WE've had short interactions (dinners/movies) where she is very silent or feels uncomfortable if I try to hug her or put my arm around her to create any form of comfort.

We've been going in circles for 30-40 days now of basically her projecting her blame onto me; saying this is not what marriage shoudl be; how I'm a horrible partner; how I don't care for her or her feelings and I do not make her a priority. I'm exhausted. I've been ongoing my individual therapy and her and I were doing couples therapy even prior to our wedding date. Ever since the last straw where she used a knife to threaten self-harm becuase she was "hurt" and "traumatized"; I left the house and we've been separated ever since.

Despite all the discussions; my begging for her to seek help (becuase of her self harming behavior) and working through my emotions iwth my T; I am not seeing progress from her. She is simply sitting as a victim at her father's house who I feel is enabling her. Last night I went to see her despite a draining psychological day (admit: I entered the emotional rollercoaster); I went to see her to see if we can build small bridges of progress/hope. We had dinner and watched TV and then she strated going on a tyraid of how I do not priotiize her; I make other plans; I don't care about her; how this is not how marriage should be; etc.

I tried to tell her that I'm here right now, I'm coming tomorrow and leaving work early, I'm spending the weekend with you, basically I am doing everything in my power to make this have some shape or form of progress; however, it was to her unsatisfaction. During this conversation/argument, her father was sitting on the couch next to us just watching and listening. At one point I could tell she was so enraged when she turned and looked at me I saw the same dark black soulless eyes I had seen when she has been in a rage previously.

I'm exhausted; I'm having a hard time sleeping; I feel helpless, her parents and my parents, and siblings all feel helpless as she is unresponsive when anyone approaches her; and also she is an absolute no-go on seeking professional help. She states just because her parents separated when she was growing up does not mean she needs help. I said that isnt why - it's because you allowed your emotions to take you to a place of rage where you threatened self-harm.

I just need support; some guidance; and hopefully others can shed light on how to take care of my mental well-being/sanity through these desperate attempts to seek progress... .I'm so tired.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[once removed]

hi Sportyman,

I posted a few weeks ago regarding my marraige falling apart after some rage behavior from my newly wed udBPDwife. We've been separated for almost a month

my first advice would be to stick around and work through these things with members as they happen. management is far easier than damage recovery, and you dont have to do this alone.

it sounds like shes throwing a kitchen sink of complaints, and youre trying to convince her/prove otherwise, do i have that right?

people with BPD traits feel everything very intensely. trying to disprove her feelings (or anyones) is a battle you cant win.

it sounds like her primary complaints are:

1. you dont prioritize her
2. you dont care for her feelings

do i have that right? for how long has she been making those complaints? does she offer any specifics around them?

[Marie1971]

I feel and know this pain of being blamed.

Possible approach.  Ask her what SPECIFIC BEHAVIOR you could do to show her you PRIORITIZE HER.

Then ask if she can FORGIVE YOU FOR THE PAST, and put it in the past. 

This is what adults in relationships do.  It's imperative she is able to put something in the past, or this episode will rear its ugly head forevermore.  If she cannot, then she is too much of a child to be married (or too BPD, which is a lot of child-like emotional behavior).   A marriage to child cannot work, unless there is a specific commitment to do EXTENSIVE  work to develop adult relational skills.  Hope this makes sense?

[slowsteve]

I hear you.  What you describe is very similar to what I experience everyday.  But I am 18 years into a marriage and we have three kids, so walking away is not an option.  I’d rather suffer, then put the kids at risk.  Luckily my wife has never done anything violent, and seems to control herself much more when dealing with the kids, as opposed to me and everyone else in her life.  If this is your first marriage, and you plan on having kids, you might want to move on... .Having kids will add a whole new level of stress to your life that you can’t imagine.

[itsmeSnap]

Hello, just a few things to keep in mind.

We had dinner and watched TV and then she strated going on a tyraid of how I do not priotiize her; I make other plans; I don't care about her; how this is not how marriage should be; etc.

I tried to tell her that I'm here right now, I'm coming tomorrow and leaving work early, I'm spending the weekend with you, basically I am doing everything in my power to make this have some shape or form of progress

Remember that emotions dictate the reality of a pwBPD, reality doesn't matter, feelings and emotions do, they will even distort their reality (past and present) to fit their current emotional state, so there's no reassurance you can provide that will suffice if she FEELS like she's not a priority.

And it could be due to a toxic thought pattern you had nothing to do with.

This is draining as you keep doing something that leads nowhere while expecting it to work and it just gets you exhausted and frustrated. Imagine hopping on a treadmill expecting to get home by running on it; of course you will sweat, legs hurting, gasping for air, tired and in need of a shower, clocked in at 10 miles in a day every day, but you still haven't moved an inch from where you started, and you still need to get your tired body home, maybe even carrying the treadmill on your back.

Would you blame the treadmill for not taking you home? that is not what a treadmill does, it's time to realize a better vehicle is needed.

My advice is to connect with her emotions, engage her heart not her mind.

she is very silent or feels uncomfortable if I try to hug her or put my arm around her to create any form of comfort

A challenge for sure. Try asking about what she's feeling at the moment, keep it specific: "is this uncomfortable?" instead of "how are you feeling?". You might even use a negative as an excuse to try something else and ask if that's better. Engage her so she can realize her feelings (mindfulness) and why she's uncomfortable.

She states just because her parents separated when she was growing up does not mean she needs help. I said that isnt why

JADE'ing is not the solution. See the workshop on it here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

it's because you allowed your emotions to take you to a place of rage where you threatened self-harm.

I know you "know" that's the reality of the situation, but that's also blaming her. "you allowed" can be removed from that statement and it still makes perfect sense and is descriptive of reality. I know whats done is done but read this instead

it's because your emotions took you to a place of rage and possible self-harm.

Subtle difference, but by detaching her from her emotions (which is quite likely her reality) you remove blame and you can both see it for what it is.

It's good that you are seeing a therapist, a trained professional on your side is a good thing. What does she/he thinks about this situation? have they helped you manage your emotional crisis state? have they offered any solution/advice on the matter?

to both slowsteve and Marie1971

If she cannot, then she is too much of a child to be married (or too BPD, which is a lot of child-like emotional behavior).

If this is your first marriage, and you plan on having kids, you might want to move on... .Having kids will add a whole new level of stress to your life that you can’t imagine.

There's a PLEASE NO RUN MESSAGES policy on this group.

Sorry I know that you are trying to help, there's a separate topic on detaching from a relationship on the board.

[Sportyman]

Hi Everyone - thank you for your responses and support. I read through it over the weekend and it gave me a ltot to think on. With my conversations over the weekend with my udBPDw I tried using the approach of disengaging her mind and following her heart. Or even trying to ask her What I can do to help her through this (negative) feeling... .but she wouldn't answer.

Many times I would use the advice that the book "walking on eggshells" or in this support group have suggested, unfortunately, the responses were deflected back to me. Even after I spent 3 continous days this past weekend going to her dad's house where she is; she sat silently or didn't have much to say. I  inquired why she didn't talk and she just said "I can't be like you, I can't act like everything is normal". Which I replied, "I understand this is uncomfortable and it is difficult for both of us but small bridges will hopefully create progress". Eventually we hung out for 3 days with minimal interaction. My heart broke over and over knowing that she is unaware of her condition and that no matter what I do; I can't fix the circumstance. I'm codependant on her and working on that with my T and with books. However, I know that the guilt and feeling of sorrow I have for her and wanting to "rescue" her will only repeat the same cycle. I've taken this ride many times.

She claled me this morning stating she can't go on like thsi anymore; and that if I cna't work on this with her; and if I cannot be a partner, a husband, and a person to protect and support her in her lowest times; that this will not work. She basically stated that this separation; this space, without being near each toher every morning/night and not doing things together is only creating more space and a relationship cannot repair from that. She stated that no couple will agree that a coupel gets better without couples therapy; and individual therapy is not what is needed.

As much as I can agree with many of her points; I know that this isn't true. We did couples therapy until my T recommended that we do individual (when things got violent/abusive). I know that I gave evey effort to mend the gap and try to find progress. I know that her truth is different than mine. I'm not a quitter; I continued and fought through all of this. I know that she is a wonderful, loving, selfless, caring, human being. However, I know that no matter what I do unless she seeks true professional help, the cycle will continue. IT is only a matter of time.

I know that in the "Karpman drama triangle" the only way to exit the triangle is to be the perpetrator; however, I'm having a very hard time making peace knowing that I have to exit that way. Even though I know I did and gave everything I had. It makes me sad her reality and feelings are that I didn't partake in the joint efforts; or I didn't take her back; or I didn't agree to couples counseling this go around.

I guess I am feeling the effects of FOG; the fear of not doing enough, the obbligation that i should do more; and the guilty that she feels I am the one that isn't putting effort.

Her final message to me was this : "Yes we will both make it through, but unfortunately just not together. I have begged and begged for us to be together and for us to work together but for some reason you want to keep me so far away. I wish you would be open to any other perspective, but unfortunately you are not and we are left with only one choice.
Anyway, like my dad was advised before, our marriage license expires in a few days, so we can let it expire and go that route or we can file for an official divorce. It's hurts to even type it.
I'm so sad this is what it's come to, but i need a spouse, a partner, kisses, hugs, someone to go to bed with at night and wake up with and dinner with and share in life's moments with, not just big moments but even little intimate moments that to anyone else seem so insignificant. I want to fall and grow with someone. I could be dead tomorrow, my family could die tomorrow, and I don't want to waste another day. I want to share my life with someone, I want a family, I want kids, I want my parents to have grandchildren before they die, but I can't have any of that if I continue this life of space with you. "

[once removed]

Many times I would use the advice that the book "walking on eggshells" or in this support group have suggested, unfortunately, the responses were deflected back to me.

please be as specific as possible. specifics can help us help you in terms of shifting gears, "more of this, less of this", that sort of thing, and help us better understand whats going on.

Even after I spent 3 continous days this past weekend going to her dad's house where she is; she sat silently or didn't have much to say.
... .

She claled me this morning stating she can't go on like thsi anymore; and that if I cna't work on this with her; and if I cannot be a partner, a husband, and a person to protect and support her in her lowest times; that this will not work. She basically stated that this separation; this space, without being near each toher every morning/night and not doing things together is only creating more space and a relationship cannot repair from that.

okay. this is as clear as it gets.

dont hang out with her at her dads. its awkward. the two of you just sit and stew and fight. change it up. plan things. invite her places. show her a good time. keep things light, fun, up beat. she wants romance, not just sitting in front of each other. got any ideas of places/things to do?

I know that in the "Karpman drama triangle" the only way to exit the triangle is to be the perpetrator; however, I'm having a very hard time making peace knowing that I have to exit that way.

this is not the case; far from it. there are two triangles: the drama triangle, and the winners triangle. the drama triangle is more about being right than resolving conflict. the winners triangle is about letting go of agendas, and taking the mature route to resolve conflict.

    Assert rather than persecute. Instead of the actions of the persecutor,  who blames and punishes - give up trying to force or manipulate others to do what you want. Take on the new behaviors of "doing " and "asserting ". Ask for what you want. Say no for what you don't want. Give constructive feedback. Initiate negotiations. Take positive action.

    Be vulnerable, but not a victim. "Victims " often feel overwhelmed, too defeated to solve their problems and emotions. They look to someone else to do it for them. Instead of the victim  role you need to be emotionally mature (vulnerable, not needy), accept the situation you are in and take responsibility to problem solve and function in a more healthy and happy way. Put real thought into what you want and how to get it, and take action to make it happen.

    Be caring, but don't overstep. We do not want to let our fears, obligation and guilt to control us or allow us to be manipulated into taking care of another person when it really isn't healthy to do so. Instead of being the rescuer  and doing the thinking, taking the lead, doing more than our share, doing more than is asked of us -  simply be a supportive, empathetic listener and provide reflection, coaching, and assistance if the person asks and is taking the lead themselves. It is important to recognize the other person as an equal (not one-down) and give the other person the respect of letting them take care of themselves, solve their own problems, and deal with their feelings as they choose. Remember, the rescuer  has the most pivotal position on the drama triangle - you are in the strongest position, at least initially, to redirect the dynamic into healthy territory.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

[Sportyman]

please be as specific as possible. specifics can help us help you in terms of shifting gears, "more of this, less of this", that sort of thing, and help us better understand whats going on.

okay. this is as clear as it gets.

dont hang out with her at her dads. its awkward. the two of you just sit and stew and fight. change it up. plan things. invite her places. show her a good time. keep things light, fun, up beat. she wants romance, not just sitting in front of each other. got any ideas of places/things to do?

this is not the case; far from it. there are two triangles: the drama triangle, and the winners triangle. the drama triangle is more about being right than resolving conflict. the winners triangle is about letting go of agendas, and taking the mature route to resolve conflict.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

I know - I actually told her on Friday let's go out on a date; we can get dressed out of her typical PJ's and we can do dinner and something fun. I messaged her saturday saying what she was in the mood ofr and she got upset at me for not planning anything. I put a plan of action together to go to the LB aquarium and made reservations at a restaruant I wanted to take her to; she then messaged me saying "nevermind, im not in the mood to go out anymore, you can come here and hang out if you want". Essentially disregarding any efforts or motive that we had to go out. In over the course of 40-45 days; she has not been open to going out and if we do (movies, walk at downtown disney, dinner) she does not talk much and makes it clear the next day or somehow that she is not comfortable or feels estranged and as if she is on a "first date" with a complete stranger. I've tried to ease the awkwardness with hugs, or a arm around the shoulder, or a small joke or something to lighten the mood. Unfortunately, to no positive result.

In response to your drama/winner's triangle; I understand and see what you're saying. However, from the foundation of our relationship many times I was the "rescuer". I would overstep to fix her problems; handle things she was capable of doing; or "enabling" her behavior. Her mom and I talked about it extensively (she lived alone previously with her mom prior to our wedding) and we both admitted we were unconsciouslly enabling her without knowing what we were doing. It was our sense of feeling we were doing the right thing; or I felt I was doing somethign that is what a caring, loving, compassionate partner would do. In hindsight, in many instances, even during couples therapy, I would try to find a peaceful, mutually beneficial compromise to conflict, however, it was usually not to her satisfaction. Many times the T felt helpless on how to deal with my udBPDw since she would go silent or pout (cross her arms- sulk) when things were not her way.

please be as specific as possible. specifics can help us help you in terms of shifting gears, "more of this, less of this", that sort of thing, and help us better understand whats going on.

okay. this is as clear as it gets.

dont hang out with her at her dads. its awkward. the two of you just sit and stew and fight. change it up. plan things. invite her places. show her a good time. keep things light, fun, up beat. she wants romance, not just sitting in front of each other. got any ideas of places/things to do?

this is not the case; far from it. there are two triangles: the drama triangle, and the winners triangle. the drama triangle is more about being right than resolving conflict. the winners triangle is about letting go of agendas, and taking the mature route to resolve conflict.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

To your last point, the FOG is what constantly "gets me" and mkaes me re-enter the cycle or "rollercoaster" to try to fix her pain, or to address the issues we have and so on. It is always me finding a reoslution, or finding a way to appease her without her true efforts of moving on... .unfortunately, only to show up again down the line.

Thanks for your reply  - also I'm not sure if i used the "quotebox" option correctly.

[once removed]

"nevermind, im not in the mood to go out anymore, you can come here and hang out if you want".

that certainly makes it harder.

but... .

she does not talk much and makes it clear the next day or somehow that she is not comfortable or feels estranged and as if she is on a "first date" with a complete stranger.

this tells you a lot, and it makes sense. what shes essentially saying is she feels youre trying too hard, and its awkward and forced. this may require more spontaneity (hey im going to the record store and would love to have your company... .that sort of thing. lighter stuff.) it will definitely require some trial and error.

I would try to find a peaceful, mutually beneficial compromise to conflict, however, it was usually not to her satisfaction. Many times the T felt helpless on how to deal with my udBPDw since she would go silent or pout (cross her arms- sulk) when things were not her way.
... .
To your last point, the FOG is what constantly "gets me" and mkaes me re-enter the cycle or "rollercoaster" to try to fix her pain, or to address the issues we have and so on. It is always me finding a reoslution, or finding a way to appease her without her true efforts of moving on... .unfortunately, only to show up again down the line.

shes pretty difficult, Sportyman, no doubt about that, and i imagine it would be mighty frustrating.

piggybacking on a lot of what itsmeSnap said about connecting with her emotions... .

people with traits of this disorder are both super needy, and terrible at communicating their needs, and many of them, to some extent, expect their partners to be mind readers, and get angry when that doesnt happen. what you will find however, is that between the lines, there are often pretty good, sometimes even obvious clues. its usually less about listening to the feelings literally (for example, say your partner says i want you to take me out, you say okay, lets go to a restaurant, and they shut it down. what they might really be saying is i want you to be more thoughtful about me, spend more quality time with me, or be more spontaneous, or i want more romance in our relationship, or... .).

listen to whats driving the feelings.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy