Need some insight

[Frankee]

I received the email today from stbx husband.  Haven't responded.  Not even sure if it deserves a response.

Look. I'm sorry about yesterday. And that's hard for me to say because your not sorry for anything. But whatever. I have to come to terms with the fact that you obviously want nothing to do with me and that your not coming back. I think its selfish, I dont think your thinking about our children. I'm also upset you've only let me see S3 twice in a month. We talked about it, I still have the email. I told you I wanted him every week, at least 3 days. Custody should be 50/50 and that hasn't been happening. In not the one hiding anything, your hiding everything. So I need some time, just like you did. And if you respect me you'll respect that, just like I did.​

I have been filling out child support paperwork and meeting with the attorney.  Should I do no contact until something is set in place with visitation, support, or the divorce?  After yesterday he blurted out in email he didn't want to see me or watch S3 for me.

[gotbushels]

Frankee   

I cautiously suggest to you that it's not in your interest to give a response to him.

It seems like the outcome you want is distance from him. It doesn't seem you have a reason to settle any practical or relational issues here. I don't think you have an obligation to help him manage himself.

The email from him reads to me as having a lot of drama-inducing comments.

And that's hard for me to say because your not sorry for anything.
[...]
I think its selfish, I dont think your thinking about our children.

It reads to me as baiting for a conflict more than anything productive for you or the relationship you have with him.

I'm interested in what others have to say here.

Enjoy your peace.

[Frankee]

I agree.  He knows certain things use to get under my skin.  But he is right.  I'm not sorry.  I have said I'm sorry to him so many times.  But I am no longer sorry for choosing my mental/emotional/physical health over him.  I am not sorry for leaving a toxic relationship.  I am not sorry for protecting my well being.  I use to get hurt when he called me selfish.. well if choosing happiness over what I was going through.. I will gladly be selfish.

[OutOfEgypt]

I was reminded of this today from a wise counselor:  "Consistent confusion in a relationship is usually a sign of manipulation."

We usually can tell what's really going on.  Our gut tells us if a person is trustworthy or trying to get something from us.  And then people like this seek to sabotage that, to throw us off balance, to use FOG to get us to doubt that better sense so they can get from us what they want.

Listen to your gut and stick with it.  Don't let him undermine that.  The whole enterprise of their life and relationships is about extracting from people through undermining that.

[I Am Redeemed]

My ex could have written that whole email, verbatim.

I don't think any of that warrants a response, either. You are putting things in place regarding the divorce and child support. That whole email was basically blaming, accusing, baiting, and telling you that you're not doing what he wants you to do.

My ex said similar things when I did not jump right back into the r/s after he did his dog-and-pony show of "look at me, I'm reading the bible and going to church now" and made a bunch of the usual promises to me: "I'm going to be the man you want me to be, I really am sorry this time", etc.

He is using S3 as an excuse to get to you. It's not about seeing his son. He wants to use S3 as the "tool" to get to you emotionally - My ex said similar things about not thinking about what's best for S3, and how he needed to have his parents together, that it was selfish of me to deny our kids the chance to have their parents together because I had a "need" (he was speaking of my need to feel safe and free from abuse).

I would just continue to consult with legal services and get something rolling as far as a court order that specifies his time with S3. I don't see anything in that email that warrants a response from you.

[Frankee]

I appreciate that reassurance.  I have kept all of his texts and emails.  His yoyo emotions are going to show him unstable.  I thought staying quiet would be the best thing.  Responding in any way is what he wants.  An opening to start an argument and try to manipulate the situation. 

Over last month, being able to monitor his ups and downs in such a rapid pace from a distance is nuts.  He tried blaming not seeing S3 this week on me, when he never once sent a message asking to see him.  Then tried to tell me it's because he's not "alllowed" to say anything.  I reiterated that I told him I would talk to him about the kids and bills. 

He's done the same thing Redemmed.  Dog and pony show.  Amazing how his "never stop trying to show me" lasted less than a month.  I keep telling myself that I am human and it is okay to feel back and forth on my feelings about this.  I spent so long doing the push-pull with him that I am slowly stepping away from that feeling.  It's a process.

[Leonis]

My ex could have written that whole email, verbatim.

Heh, I could third that response. Except, my ex projects stuff back on me, saying that I'm the one who always say it's really her fault.

I would also voice my sentiments about seeking legal advice.

What was your original custody order like? Or is there not one in place right now?

[Frankee]

There aren't any orders in place right now.  I haven't kept him from seeing S3.  He wants to say I did. 

The first week he didn't see S3 was because I knew he would use the time to try to get to me.  I have it in email that he admitted he thought that happened and apologized. 

Second time was this week where he didn't say a single thing about picking up S3.  I think he did it on purpose to get to me.  I think that because if he really wanted to see S3, he would had said something when I didn't message about drop off/pick up.  It is his responsibility to maintain the relationship.  I am not going to be the one who constantly asks when he wants S3 or any of that.

I feel he thinks I don't see through his charade.  But with learning through own experience and help from everyone here . I am seeing through his BS

[Frankee]

The break finally happened with my stbx.  My girlfriend is still able to see his posts and he got drunk and went all out.

Said I abandoned the family, I not thinking about the children, how people are taking my side because what I say is TRUE, I'm allowing the boys to grow up without their father, how I have the truck and boohoo he has to walk (he gave me the truck), etc.

It's frustrating with the amount of lies he spewed.  And has done what I was hoping he wouldn't do.. the textbook narcissistic explosion.  Naming Me his monster.  He's using the boys to guilt the heck out of me.

Me sitting here, being the bigger person.  Not buying into his attempts to start some complete circus side show.  It still is really hard sometimes

[Cat Familiar]

I hope you’re doing OK Frankee, in spite of this recent development. My ex tried to smear my reputation but it backfired upon him. People who know you well won’t buy into his version.

[once removed]

hes saying a few things in the email.

hes venting hurt
he wants to see the children
hes miffed and wants to let you have it back

at some point, the two of you are going to be in each others lives as coparents. its in your best interest to get along the best you can.

why not filter through everything else, and respond with some clarity about the children?

[Leonis]

There aren't any orders in place right now.  I haven't kept him from seeing S3.  He wants to say I did.  

Consider that legal counsel before it gets out of hand.

You are kind of in a hard spot where if you say too much, it will escalate things. If you don't say anything, it's perceived as you are alienating him from the children. Either way, you'll have to make coparenting work.

[Skip]

why not filter through everything else, and respond with some clarity about the children?

This is my advice, too. There is unfinished business between the two of you and you are both easily triggered and reading into each other every move.

Cruise up to 35,000 feet. He has been mostly respectful since your surprise exit. And you know that he was trying before you left. Too little, to late, you said.Fair enough (for sure).

But there is every no reason not to show him respect now that you are out. He has left you alone. You will  be co-parenting for years.

Suggest a schedule for the next two weeks for when he can have your/his son. And next week, schedule another week so he his not waiting on you.

If he says blaming or hurtful stuff - bring it here - we'll talk you down. Keep you conversation with him brief, friendly, firm. Be benevolent. Politely opt out of any drama...

This is going as well as it could. Stay the path.

[Frankee]

If I am reading this right, I should respond to that email ONLY in regards to the kids?  I am assuming I should completely ignore the fact I know what he said about me on social media?

I already have a feeling he is going to blame me for not "letting" him see his youngest this week, even though he chose not to see him.  How should I address that if it is brought up?

I also need to clarify that if he wants to keep him, it can be three days, but he will have to let him go daycare part of the day on the first day.  I could have him go to daycare and stbx can get him after he gets off work, keep him that day and the next two fulls days and return him on the 2nd full day in the afternoon.  Does that reasonable?

I am not going to tell stbx about my daycare assistance or the requirement that he goes 5 days.  I don't need stbx ruining that for me to get back at me.

[Skip]

Detach Frankie. There is no need to argue anymore. It's over.

[Enabler]

Am I right in believing she should address the situation as if she is addressing a competent contractor. Stick to details of the arrangement or the outline of the arrangement, ignore any 'history' or blame and just stick to the outcome... which is deciding on what childcare is possible, safe and reasonable and executing that plan.

Do not address anything other than the arrangements and do not entertain any discussion about blame and shame. Thus far his email is not threatening, it's just a smidge emotional and blamey... you can look through that, filter it and JUST address the practical matters at hand.

State what you can and can't facilitate
Ask him what he can and can't facilitate
Draw up a closed end proposal with minimal ambiguity
Avoid leaving choices dangling with loose ends. "If I don't hear back from you by xyz, I'll consider you have no objections to the plan and I'll see you at yours at 15:30 on Wednesday 17th July".

Enabler   

[Frankee]

I talked it over with my counselor.  I sent him a very short email.  He took down the smear campaign on social media.  I don't know if it was before or after my email.

Hey, I was just reaching out to offer that we squash this animosity between us.​ I will keep things civil for the boys sake.​ I don't want them to grow up without their father, just because we are not together.​ I have searched my heart and the truth is that, we aren't getting back together.​ If you want to set up a schedule every week, we can work out a pick up and drop off time and place for both boys.

He sent a response and I waited to read it until I was in the right frame of mind.  His first email was awesome.  I felt at peace and like maybe we were getting somewhere.  I really felt like he was accepting the reality of the situation.

I've been talking to my counselor and we both agree that I should take some time for myself. I know you dont want to get back together, but i still want to work it out for all of us. I'd like you to consider counseling again. But for now, I just need you to leave me alone. I love you, but just leave me alone for now.

Well.. that was very short live.  He sent another one later the day and I was like.. oh come on!

Look, I'm not even 100% sure what happened baby. You haven't talked to me at all and you've surrounded yourself with people encouraging you to leave me. And now your saying there's no chance of us working. I know you feel like it's not worth saving our relationship, but it is. We need to find a way to work through this. You have a husband who doesn't cheat on you, doesn't hit you, and is willing to do whatever it takes to fix things. I'm sorry about the past, I know you had to process things that never got processed. But by focusing solely on those things you forget about all the progress. We are a family and we need to try to fix this. I'm willing to talk to you, but im not going to do it like this anymore. I'm done with emails and text messages. We need to talk, we need to figure things out, and that's not going to happen like this. I still need time, I'm hurt. But when we do talk, I'm not going to keep doing it this way. Please think about our family, I'm​ still willing to do anything you need or want me to do. I love you, I'll message you when I'm ready.

It was a bit long, but I'm just... At a loss.  I am really trying here.  As you can see in both emails, he never once address the issue of seeing S3.  Completely ignore my attempt to set up a schedule so he can see him.  He wants to blast me for not letting him see S3, but glosses over my attempt to let him see S3.  The rest of it is just noise, none of it is swaying my choice to leave him.  I haven't responded to either email.

[snowglobe]

I’m wondering if he is withholding to talk about the child visitation arrangement as a way of  coercing you to address the separation decision. “I will speak to you when I’m ready”, “when you will speak to me face to face and come back”, those are messages I’m reading. His npd is being wounded, self image shattered, his stable view of not leaving not matter what he does is altered. He needs it back. In fact I’m certain that if you come back, this will be great for a very short period of time, and then they will get so bad that you would wish you never came back. The only reason why he wants you to come back is so he can restore his unstable image of self and end these relationships on his terms. Suddenly realizing that he was “happier alone”. That is why many people on this forum suggested a mediator for your communication. There won’t be a clean cut.

[Enabler]

"Just to confirm I have this right, you aren't in a position to discuss arrangements for S3 visitation and you would like us to leave you alone for the time being? If I have that correct, I will wait to hear from you regarding visitation until such time you are ready to discuss. Best Snowglobe"

[Enabler]

IMHO your first mail probably triggered him in the first sentence and got him thinking about the relationship... he likely didn't even hear the final sentence because of all the shouting in his own head. The first sentence almost feels like you're constantly questioning whether or not you have done the right thing... like you're not certain and not definite. For him to move forward and be constructive he need to know you are certain and that there is NO CHANCE of things going back to the way they were. He may not like it when it's shown with consistency, but for him, this message shows there's still an ember glowing there and if he blows hard enough he might get a flame... and that's torturous.

Enabler

[Skip]

Let's take BPD out of the equation for a minute. We often need to do that to see if there is anything pathological going on and to check our expectations...

1. All along (years) this has been a very dominant/dependent relationship. That was how it started - everyone was good with that - and that is how it has grown. 2. Both parties are very prone to high conflict and the use of force. Verbal force, physical force, third party force, money, possession, etc. Problems are not worked out, they are battled out. Power rules. 3. Recycling, by both sides, is the norm.

Right now, you (Frankee) are in the power position.

I point this out, because given the above history, nothing that he is doing is abnormal for this relationship or concerning. If anything, he is being cooperative and respectful. He was working on things before this happened. You left using power. He is wounded and asking you to come home.

You every right to feel how you feel about the relationship (resentments) and leave. He has every right to feel that he was manhandled (deceived, that third parties are working against him, his children are under your control), and to be hurt that his marriage is in shambles.  All of these things are true.

And lastly, this is a huge life changing event for all 4 of you. Three of the parties have no choice. It's important to give everyone time to grieve and resolve their feelings, and adjust. While this is your emancipation, this is a tragedy for everyone else. He is losing his partner (deserved or not) and kids hate it when parents break up.

So as hard as it may be to get above your resentments - and they run deep - it's important to have empathy for everyone involved - especially if you want a good post relationship co-parenting arrangement.

Does that make sense?

I think your first email was fine. I'm not sure it helps to keep volunteering statements like "have searched my heart and the truth is that, we aren't getting back together". If his dog died, you wouldn't keep saying it. The words hurt. Every time you say this you are implying "you broke this, live with it".

Know why you are saying it. It makes you feel resolved. It makes you feel in charge. And, at some level, it;s payback. This all has a price and when he reacts, that is the price. If you need to say things things for your own resolve, maybe its better saying it to others.  

I suspect this is what triggered him.  He did his best to hold off and not saying it, and show you support in the first email. I suspect he was hoping to get some validation from you (not that you would know that) and then wrote the second email which says "we always do this, we always fix it, let's go an do what we always do".

If you go back with "Just to confirm I have this right, you aren't in a position to discuss arrangements for S3 visitation and you would like us to leave you alone for the time being? If I have that correct, I will wait to hear from you regarding visitation until such time you are ready to discuss. Best" I think it will inflame things more... he is looking for some speck of compassion and this "compassion-less".

You could say this with compassion... these two statements are essentially the same...

"Just to confirm I have this right, you aren't in a position to discuss arrangements for S3 visitation and you would like us to leave you alone for the time being? If I have that correct, I will wait to hear from you regarding visitation until such time you are ready to discuss. Best"

"I understand what you are saying and appreciate it. I'm not ready to sit down and talk about it right now. I just need space right now. I would you like to make arrangements for regular S3 visits. Your son needs you. I would like to suggest ______ and _______ but am open to other options. Will this work? Are you ready to start this week?  If not, you can message me when you are ready."

The red text are his words and request - this is showing him respect. When you lead with respectful notes, he has followed your lead.  

[Frankee]

*Sigh*. I have a moment to respond in short and come back more detail, but I really appreciate the feedback.  Not only are separations hard, but basically having to think extensively on every move, every communication I exhausting.  That being said however, kind of how our entire relationship has been.

I appreciate pointing out the grieving process for the other three parties.  I was so happy to be away from him.  I tried to just tell him flat out so there was no question.  Guess I went about it the wrong way.  Anyways, will pick up my response later.