I thought I was doing my best

[magic78]

*mod note: This thread was split from this discussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339210.0

My problem is that I had no boundaries. I allowed her to behave and treat me however she wanted because I needed and wanted her attention and validation. I had seen my mother treat my father the same way and that was my reality of a relationship. I didn't believe I was worthy of anything better so I became a pleaser on a scale of 9 to 10 as you say. It was me who allowed her to constantly break up witg me and she lost all respect for me. She even admited this. She said that she didn't take me seriously because I kept taking her back so she kept playing me.

I think trying to salvage something is extremely dangerous. I believe her ex was a rebound from me as she started taking to him only 2 months after we broke up and apparently he was there for her. If we tried again I would be a rebound from him and how could I trust her anyway when she spoke to me behind his back? Plus she broke up with me 30 times so the chances of her getting back with him is high if you take that into consideration.

[Skip]

I think trying to salvage something is extremely dangerous.

Risky. Unhealthy.

You were talking to her to help get closure. Stay on course.  She is talking to you to have a emotional safety net.

Emotional IQ. See it for what it is.

You are still vulnerable. She may soon become vulnerable. That's a situation that could drive a re-connection, or an attempted/fail re-connection.

Emotional IQ. This is potentially risky and hurtful if you just hang out here. That is not wise.

Should you just have 1 or 2 more chats and softly wind it down... leave the door open to future chats but don't go through it for a while.

Make sense?

How much time are you guys spending in communications a week?  How often?

[magic78]

Risky. Unhealthy.

Yes I agree

You were talking to her to help get closure. Stay on course.  She is talking to you to have a emotional safety net.

Emotional IQ. See it for what it is.

Yes this is correct. Sort of 2 reasons but interlinked. I was talking to her to confirm that she hadn't changed which I suspected which would validate my reason for going NC in the first place & if she had changed & it was all in my head then would it be worth pursuing another go. I believe she was talking to me as an emotional safety net or a back up plan as you say.

You are still vulnerable. She may soon become vulnerable. That's a situation that could drive a re-connection, or an attempted/fail re-connection.

Emotional IQ. This is potentially risky and hurtful if you just hang out here. That is not wise.

Should you just have 1 or 2 more chats and softly wind it down... leave the door open to future chats but don't go through it for a while.

Make sense?

Yes. I am keeping my distance & making distance when I sense too much communication or too much pull. It's hard to explain but logically I know when to move away from the chats when I feel my heart trying to pull me in. Ideally I want to leave the door open. I still care about her a great deal & I would like to be there for her if this is safe for me. So far it feels safe & I can judge my own emotional state. The trust thing has really given me the reason not to take it further. I cannot be with someone who can talk to their ex sexually & so slyly. I am really glad I found this out. This was sort of my cut off point. For what ever reason trust is extremely extremely important to me.

How much time are you guys spending in communications a week?  How often?

When we communicate it's normally for several hours then I leave it a few days. This has gone on for 4 week now. I left a gap of 2 weeks though in between this time so really we haven't spent that much time. So, within the 4 weeks we have communicated for around a total of maybe 5 days. I have made it clear that it is only friends & nothing else. I did make it clear that I wouldn't talk sexual when she was dating someone. Also, this is when I left it for couple of weeks. I have opened up the conversations except once when she did. She has given me her mobile number on 2 occasions & suggested that we should text but I have declined & said I would rather keep it to email. So all communication is by email. I did it like this so it's easier for me to drop away without having to block mobile number / social media.

[Skip]

Yes. I am keeping my distance & making distance when I sense too much communication or too much pull. It's hard to explain but logically I know when to move away...

Most marriage affairs happen between confidants who logically I know when to move away... except for that one night that started it all.

It sound like you should wind it down.  As you said, you are still raw and that typical means vulnerable, too.

[once removed]

i wanted to follow up on some of your questions. i dont want to distract from where youre going with Skip, its a good, sober look at things.

You mention that you wasn't strong enough to lead it in a healthier direction? How on earth do you lead a relationship in an healthy direction with an unhealthy person.

i couldnt. i was an unhealthy person. i also didnt know then what i know now. thats the point, really. im not that same guy. i dont deal with conflict in the same dysfunctional ways (though i still have my off days, we all do!). that same relationship would never happen in the same way. but thats as a result of learning the lessons and applying them.

after the relationship that brought me here, i found myself in two more unhealthy relationships, in more pain. it was at that point that i was ready (desperate) to really dig down and find out what made me tick. i could have said "it was them and not me" (thats what id done for all of my life)...and id have gone on to just keep repeating my bad luck.

thats a choice that faces you. you will see this stuff again in life. you can apply the lessons that this relationship can teach you, or you can carry the baggage into future relationships.

You may have learned a lot of lessons but most of them you shouldn't need to use with healthy people.

i use them all the time, with everyone in my life. i use them all the time here on the boards when i respond to others. theyre just basic relationship skills that i lacked. it took a more extreme case to get me to realize that, but thats what adversity does...it tests us. it reveals us. nobody is a bad driver in an empty parking lot.

i had a guy come at me really hard, publicly, in a very personal way just the other day. hes done it before, so i badly wanted to get a couple of shots in. i used what i learned here instead. it patched things up. it stopped the drama from spreading. he also saw how out of line he was.

So how do you deal wit these type of conflicts in a "mature & healthy way"?

it sounds like what youre describing is a partner that used breakups to get her way, or to get some space. i did quite a bit of that myself. a lot of us here have.

a mature and healthy approach is not to be overwhelmed by it. understand where the person is coming from, what theyre communicating. is it a need for space? pull back, give them space. dont over pursue. in times of calm, you work to get on the same page and curb unhealthy behaviors. you do a lot of listening, let your overwhelmed partner blow off steam. you talk about how you feel breakup threats hurt the relationship, especially over time. you communicate that you think the two of you are better than that. you open yourself and the conversation up to solutions that can work for both of you. and you use lots of positive reinforcement. and you may need to do all of that several times, over time, and still see some hiccups from time to time. there are lots of ways to deal with a person who is being abusive, too.

alternatively, you stop and assess. you recognize that 30 makeup/breakup cycles is extremely unhealthy and that without drastic change, its a dead relationship, and you make the hard choice of ending the relationship (for real).

these are just some examples (there are others); the kind of stuff youd hear on the Bettering board, and also the kind of stuff that can also serve you in future relationships. i dont want to give you the impression that breaking up is always the mature and healthy thing to do or the only solution. youre going to experience more of this kind of stuff out there in the dating world.

[magic78]

i wanted to follow up on some of your questions. i dont want to distract from where youre going with Skip, its a good, sober look at things.

i couldnt. i was an unhealthy person. i also didnt know then what i know now. thats the point, really. im not that same guy. i dont deal with conflict in the same dysfunctional ways (though i still have my off days, we all do!). that same relationship would never happen in the same way. but thats as a result of learning the lessons and applying them.

after the relationship that brought me here, i found myself in two more unhealthy relationships, in more pain. it was at that point that i was ready (desperate) to really dig down and find out what made me tick. i could have said "it was them and not me" (thats what id done for all of my life)...and id have gone on to just keep repeating my bad luck.

thats a choice that faces you. you will see this stuff again in life. you can apply the lessons that this relationship can teach you, or you can carry the baggage into future relationships.

i use them all the time, with everyone in my life. i use them all the time here on the boards when i respond to others. theyre just basic relationship skills that i lacked. it took a more extreme case to get me to realize that, but thats what adversity does...it tests us. it reveals us. nobody is a bad driver in an empty parking lot.

i had a guy come at me really hard, publicly, in a very personal way just the other day. hes done it before, so i badly wanted to get a couple of shots in. i used what i learned here instead. it patched things up. it stopped the drama from spreading. he also saw how out of line he was.

it sounds like what youre describing is a partner that used breakups to get her way, or to get some space. i did quite a bit of that myself. a lot of us here have.

a mature and healthy approach is not to be overwhelmed by it. understand where the person is coming from, what theyre communicating. is it a need for space? pull back, give them space. dont over pursue. in times of calm, you work to get on the same page and curb unhealthy behaviors. you do a lot of listening, let your overwhelmed partner blow off steam. you talk about how you feel breakup threats hurt the relationship, especially over time. you communicate that you think the two of you are better than that. you open yourself and the conversation up to solutions that can work for both of you. and you use lots of positive reinforcement. and you may need to do all of that several times, over time, and still see some hiccups from time to time. there are lots of ways to deal with a person who is being abusive, too.

alternatively, you stop and assess. you recognize that 30 makeup/breakup cycles is extremely unhealthy and that without drastic change, its a dead relationship, and you make the hard choice of ending the relationship (for real).

these are just some examples (there are others); the kind of stuff youd hear on the Bettering board, and also the kind of stuff that can also serve you in future relationships. i dont want to give you the impression that breaking up is always the mature and healthy thing to do or the only solution. youre going to experience more of this kind of stuff out there in the dating world.

Yes I do understand that I could of attacked the conflict in a better way and I did think I was doing my best. I'm not the guy I was when I first met her. I have learnt a lot and I started to set boundaries which I never did before but these were just met with accusations of me trying to manipulate her or I had become uncaring.

Certain things i could not change such as the jealousy i described. I absolutely covered everything to the point I couldn't think of anything else to try. How can you sort these situations out when you've tried everything humanly possible and then it turns out the person can't be trusted themselves.

The issue when I hear comments such as yours is that it sends me into a panic. I start wondering whether it was all my fault. I am really bad at making decisions and assessing things. I hate been wrong and possibly hurting someone. Now because of what you have said my instant reaction is to email her and apologise for things and I'm afraid that this is going to get me involved with a dangerous unhealthy person again.

[once removed]

Certain things i could not change such as the jealousy i described.

for really, pathologically jealous people, jealousy is a deep seated thing.

being with a jealous person is a choice. you and i have that choice. i wouldnt do it again, not if you paid me.

some people are still in their relationships, so the goal isnt to change their partners jealousy, but to try to cope better with it, and ideally reduce the overall frequency and intensity of the conflict. it would have helped me, i think, but thats not to say i could have lived with it. i have that choice.

The issue when I hear comments such as yours is that it sends me into a panic.

i know the feeling very well.

set what i have said aside for now, and come back to it at a later date, further along in the detaching process.

dont act on anxiety. the feeling will pass.

[magic78]

for really, pathologically jealous people, jealousy is a deep seated thing.

being with a jealous person is a choice. you and i have that choice. i wouldnt do it again, not if you paid me.

some people are still in their relationships, so the goal isnt to change their partners jealousy, but to try to cope better with it, and ideally reduce the overall frequency and intensity of the conflict. it would have helped me, i think, but thats not to say i could have lived with it. i have that choice.

For me it is too exhausting. You constantly have to watch what you are doing o they do not become jealous. 

i know the feeling very well.

set what i have said aside for now, and come back to it at a later date, further along in the detaching process.

dont act on anxiety. the feeling will pass.

I hate this feeling. I spent 2 years doubting my decisions always searching for confirmation. If she behaved in a certain way I would post on a forum asking if this is acceptable. I literally have a folder on my PC full of copies of questions that I had posted on forums. The anxiety was overwhelming. All I did was ruminate. Should I have done this, what if It was me, what if It was her upbringing, what if she was just having a bad day, what if it was something I said etc etc etc over & over again then 9 times out of 10 I would forgive her. Although most of the times she had the ability to detract from the original issue caused by her & push it onto me & I would end up apologising for something totally different.

[once removed]

You constantly have to watch what you are doing o they do not become jealous. 

that would be walking on eggshells. you dont live your life in a way that your partner (any partner) is never jealous (or that theres never any kind of conflict). you learn to cope better, and deal with it more constructively.

I hate this feeling. I spent 2 years doubting my decisions always searching for confirmation. If she behaved in a certain way I would post on a forum asking if this is acceptable. I literally have a folder on my PC full of copies of questions that I had posted on forums. The anxiety was overwhelming. All I did was ruminate.

i shared the part of my story where any suggestion to me that i could have done anything better would send me into a tailspin for hours on end, ruminating, crying, anxiety attacks. i know how hard this is. we all do.

im not saying this stuff to poke at your well being or mental health or make you feel badly. im saying it because detaching and healing are very hard work. the toughest questions, the hardest truths, the most painful thoughts, those times where id retreat into my bedroom and bawl for hours - you push through it, you face it head on, and you come out a more resilient, more confident, more self assured man.

i cant think of a better reason to detach, heal, and ultimately, to both learn the lessons you want to take into new relationships, and the skills to attract and maintain them. youll know which way is up or down. you wont lose yourself in relationships. youll be confident and fearless. your relationships will be even more rewarding.

its a battle between the magic78 from the relationship, and the magic78 pushing to break through.

[magic78]

that would be walking on eggshells. you dont live your life in a way that your partner (any partner) is never jealous (or that theres never any kind of conflict). you learn to cope better, and deal with it more constructively.

I tried changing my behaviour. So I stopped going on social media. I answered texts immediately even when driving or busy. I would tell her I was going into a meeting prior to it. I can remember she once tagged me in a facebook meme that said something along the lines of "make sure you constantly reassure her that she is the only one. Reassure her of your every move". This just confirmed what she expected from me. But, behaving like this just isn't healthy & causes resentments & conflicts. So, I tried the coping method. Coping with the constant accusations & trying to ignore them but again there is only so much that you can ignore & there is only so much reassurance that you can give. She even went through pics of female friends on my facebook & found a woman who picture I had liked before we were even dating but she still managed to make me feel bad for liking it. 

i shared the part of my story where any suggestion to me that i could have done anything better would send me into a tailspin for hours on end, ruminating, crying, anxiety attacks. i know how hard this is. we all do.

im not saying this stuff to poke at your well being or mental health or make you feel badly. im saying it because detaching and healing are very hard work. the toughest questions, the hardest truths, the most painful thoughts, those times where id retreat into my bedroom and bawl for hours - you push through it, you face it head on, and you come out a more resilient, more confident, more self assured man.

i cant think of a better reason to detach, heal, and ultimately, to both learn the lessons you want to take into new relationships, and the skills to attract and maintain them. youll know which way is up or down. you wont lose yourself in relationships. youll be confident and fearless. your relationships will be even more rewarding.

its a battle between the magic78 from the relationship, and the magic78 pushing to break through.

Yes the anxiety was dreadful. I can remember crying in the work toilets. Googling things to see if what she had done / said was my fault. Just not confident in my decisions. However, I am glad that I was given this relationship because I needed it for my growth s long as I am able to learn from it.

I think I am just starting to realise what part I had to play in it. At first all I was doing was pointing the finger at her but we can never grow that way.

My major problem as been lack of self love & that is what I am working on now. It has been almost 11 months since I set that final boundary & went NC & I feel like I am a better person but by no means am I through this. My reconnection with her shows this.

I think I missed the whole point of this board. I thought it was a place to point the finger at our exBPD or to get confirmation that they did have BPD. I now realise it is a place to understand the dynamics & heal so it doesn't happen again.

I have just read these pages & they have been great help:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=95860.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=136462.0

[once removed]

But, behaving like this just isn't healthy & causes resentments & conflicts.

i agree. invasions of privacy are a big violation, too.

i kinda went the other route myself. yelled at her. called her crazy and insecure. refused to have any conversation or discussion about her accusations (either that, or i brought up double standards and fought with her for hours at a time). its not any healthier. but it made me feel powerful and in control, and id never been in that position.

and for the sake of honesty, i gave my ex reason to be jealous and insecure a number of times. she was a jealous person before and after me, but it wasnt all her. i had to face the fact that i wasnt this beacon of loyalty that i wanted to believe i was.

if you think about it though, there can be a payoff to all that jealousy. it can feel like loyalty. it can feel like someone is just that into you. as frustrating as it can be, it can also make you feel powerful, and safe.

At first all I was doing was pointing the finger at her but we can never grow that way.

thats stage 1. it has its place. you dont want to get stuck there, though. why? because at the end of the day, its attachment. some (many) never get past it, just carry it to future relationships. one of the most powerful ways we can reclaim our lives is to move past it and let it go. we cant make pain go away, we can move through it deliberately. once we start to do that, we are well on our way.

I have just read these pages & they have been great help:

im glad to see you diving in. the lessons and workshops here not only help with understanding, i found the stages of detachment to be a really good framework for healing.

My reconnection with her shows this.

so what are next steps?

[magic78]

i agree. invasions of privacy are a big violation, too.

i kinda went the other route myself. yelled at her. called her crazy and insecure. refused to have any conversation or discussion about her accusations (either that, or i brought up double standards and fought with her for hours at a time). its not any healthier. but it made me feel powerful and in control, and id never been in that position.

I never did this but this is because I hate confrontation. I am naturally a placid person & I prefer to not attack back & attack myself instead if that makes sense?

and for the sake of honesty, i gave my ex reason to be jealous and insecure a number of times. she was a jealous person before and after me, but it wasnt all her. i had to face the fact that i wasnt this beacon of loyalty that i wanted to believe i was.

if you think about it though, there can be a payoff to all that jealousy. it can feel like loyalty. it can feel like someone is just that into you. as frustrating as it can be, it can also make you feel powerful, and safe.

I tried not to play into her jealously but I will admit that at first it did feel good until it started happening often & it became exhausting. I pride myself on trust & someone accusing me of doing something that I wasn't I really resented.

so what are next steps?

This is tricky I don't actually know. I wanted to reconnect with her to make sure it wasn't all in my head & that she hadn't changed. She has apologised for everything & she seems sincere but apologising isn't going to stop her behaving the same we. 30 times she broke up with me. That's 30 times that I gave her the chance to change & she never did so I doubt that she's changed sufficiently in 10 months. I do believe she is sorry because if what it caused me to do & that was go NC.

I have not spoken to her for a few days & I am ok with this. I still have feelings for her & I still care for her. I am happy to leave the door open for the time been.

As I have said a few times. Reconnecting has helped me to see that she did have the ability to lie like I thought & she had no problem talking to me sexually behind her boyfriends back & not even thinking it is an issue so how many times did she do this with me because I suspected it. So lets say I said we will give it another go. I wouldn't be able to trust her & trust is a big thing. As soon as we had a disagreement the chances are she would be talking to my replacement.

[once removed]

I prefer to not attack back & attack myself instead if that makes sense?

it does. two sides of the same coin. sometimes we learn the wrong lessons...we move toward the other side of the coin and over compensate (that is what i did). be assertive, dont be a door mat, thats healthy and attractive. but you dont want to get into another relationship and over compensate for the past.

I wanted to reconnect with her to make sure it wasn't all in my head & that she hadn't changed.

a lot of us have taken this path. being a fly on the wall, so to speak.

I am happy to leave the door open for the time been.

i think this is a good strategy. no need for dramatic exits. just slowly dial things down, let them take their natural course.

As soon as we had a disagreement the chances are she would be talking to my replacement.

you know her best. it would take a lot for her to let go of those old ways...its hard for any of us.

as was already said, now would not be good timing anyway. youd be a rebound (no matter how sincere her feelings). ive been a rebound before...its really best to let the other person grieve, not enable them to skip over it. likewise, you need your space to grieve as well.