After spending time with BPDm

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hoping for advice.
Children home after extended time at their mums and eldest asking very specific questions about who was here and how often while they were away - Social distancing rules in place at present.  Oldest stays up late after others goes to bed with her mum and is treated as a friend and confidant.  So understand she is struggling with loyalty issues.
Our concern though is the older two are also monitoring and shutting down younger siblings when they are talking about their time at mums.
We are still involved in court and they have  said before they can’t tell us things cause I’m getting their mum in trouble.
Just want kids to be able share what each individual wants to  without the need to censor it.
How do others handle this.

[The awful Aunty]

Hoping for advice.
Children home after extended time at their mums and eldest asking very specific questions about who was here and how often while they were away - Social distancing rules in place at present.  Oldest stays up late after others goes to bed with her mum and is treated as a friend and confidant.  So understand she is struggling with loyalty issues.
Our concern though is the older two are also monitoring and shutting down younger siblings when they are talking about their time at mums.
We are still involved in court and they have  said before they can’t tell us things cause I’m getting their mum in trouble.
Just want kids to be able share what each individual wants to  without the need to censor it.
How do others handle this.

[kells76]

eldest asking very specific questions about who was here and how often while they were away - Social distancing rules in place at present.  Oldest stays up late after others goes to bed with her mum and is treated as a friend and confidant.  So understand she is struggling with loyalty issues.

Hi AA;

That sounds like my husband's [DH] oldest (my 14 year old stepdaughter [SD14]). She's usually with us a little more than SD12, who is more clingy to Mom at this stage, but the other week she texted to DH that she couldn't "in good conscience come over because it might spread the virus and hurt the community" or something really canned like that. It was really interesting... DH called and just asked her to tell her about how she felt, and asked her if she had any questions for him about the precautions our workplaces were taking. (this all came from Mom wanting to deny parenting time if DH and I kept working while her house was in voluntary quarantine... long story, ugh). SD14 said "it wouldn't make a difference" to know about the precautions our works were taking.

And in a way, she's right. Because emotionally, she "knew" she had to be with Mom, supporting Mom's narrative. If she logically, rationally could make sense of how she COULD be with us, she would be even more torn apart, because that wouldn't make a difference emotionally.

I wonder if your oldest is, in a way, trying to set up a drama scenario that will "prove" that their mom is right -- as a way to have emotional calm and sureness, if that makes sense. Scenario: narrative from Mom is that only Mom is safe and loving and protective, and no information must challenge that narrative (i.e. info from the younger siblings that maaaayyyybbbee all isn't perfect at Mom's). It is devastating to kids to see that a parent is unwise, incapable, unprotective, etc., so the older one is starting to have to construct "tests" to "prove" that Mom is right.

So, if there is "proof" that you had people over, or got close to people, or would do something that would get Mom in trouble, or whatnot, then that "confirms" that Mom is right (she is warm, caring, protective, wants to be with the kids) and you are wrong. And that artificially generates the feeling of stability that the kids need.

When people construct drama scenarios to confirm something, it could be described as a drama triangle. Have you heard of those before? I think there is a link on the site somewhere to the Karpman drama triangle. You can also google search for "Lynne Forrest" and "Faces of Victimhood" (I think) for a great article about it.

Basically, we can get drawn into drama that is a scenario that reenacts a belief that the kids (or others) want to be bolstered. The kids want to see their mom as a victim, so they (unconsciously) set up a "play" where Mom is the Victim, they are the Rescuers (defending Mom), and therefore you must be the Persecutor (the one who is mean, won't leave Mom alone, is hurtful, etc).

The only way to not play into that scenario is some really skillful, but non-intuitive moves and statements, to disengage and not "play the role you're cast in".

DH and I have gotten sucked into these with the kids before. I've learned recently that any time I feel like I have to respond to the kids by justifying myself, arguing, getting defensive of my actions, or explaining "the truth" (note, this is the acronym JADE), then I've already confirmed their preconceived narrative (from Mom).

Instead, I have to back out of the "fake scenario" by making more neutral statements, and putting the work back on the kids by asking them questions.

Option 1:

Kids: "Did anyone come over while we were gone? It seems like someone did."

JADE reaction: "That's not true! I've never had anyone over to the house in the last six weeks."

Kids: "The more AA denies it, the more we know Mom is right, and AA is lying".


Getting out of drama response:

Kids: "Did anyone come over while we were gone? It seems like someone did."

AA's neutral response: (with calmness and maybe a smile): "Lots of people are concerned about that these days, huh? What do you think?"

...

It's really hard when the kids have been parentified (treated as the friend and confidant) and overempowered to judge actual parenting (which is what you are doing, actual parenting). With those kids, whenever we can step away from conflict and arguments over "what happened" or "who thinks what", and move to a position of "How are you feeling about it" or "I would be worried, too, if I thought someone came over", that can diffuse the tension and conflict.

Let us know more of how things are going or what communication resources you'd like to try... we can even talk through any conversations you think might be coming up, and practice neutral responses with you!

cheers;

kells76

[worriedStepmom]

Kells is good at identifying the drama triangles and working her way out of them.

Our concern though is the older two are also monitoring and shutting down younger siblings when they are talking about their time at mums.
We are still involved in court and they have said before they can’t tell us things cause I’m getting their mum in trouble.

The above is another (really common) one.

One potential response - "Goodness, it doesn't sound fun to have to keep secrets/have to protect mum/be so vigilant about what you say.  How does that make you feel?" 
or
"I understand you're worried about telling me things about mum.  It can be really hard to watch the people we love face consequences for the choices they made.  Do you feel like mum's consequences are because of you?"

It might also be useful to have some regular one-on-one time with the kids.  I regularly take my S10 on a walk, just the two of us.  He's more likely to talk about some stuff away from his sisters.  Sometimes I hear about stuff that was bothering him two or three weeks after the fact...but I eventually hear about it.  When my SD was younger and trying to deal with her mom's attempts to alienate her against me, SD and I spent a lot of time alone together doing arts and crafts or walking or sitting on her bed playing a game.  Any opportunity to give her a safe space to talk.
 
The key is to never argue with their feelings.  They get to feel however they feel.  You can ask questions to help them think through why they feel that way and what they want to do with those feelings (sometimes it's enough to acknowledge them and throw them away).  and, occasionally, you can ask if they want your perspective.  I never ever told SD that her mom was wrong. Instead, I'd sometimes say, "I think your mom might be confused" or "Mom has her perspective, but I'm the only one who gets to say what I feel/think/my motivations are because no one else is inside my head.  Thank goodness - that would be really weird to have people eavesdropping all the time!"  (It was easier for SD to process if I could turn towards silly while still giving the same message.)

[The awful Aunty]

Appreciate the advice i will save and keep coming back to it as a reminder to not defend my actions. I have read about triangulation before in regards to mother sister and I but hadn’t applied it to this situation. I do though see it is the same.

I would really like to get oldest child some xtra support from a professional. She is nearly 13 and it’s such an important time for her.

Any advice on how to handle this with her ? She did see a phycologist  when she first came to live with us for a few times but was reluctant to continue and phycologist felt she was doing pretty well so we stopped.

Also how best to communicate this to her mother ! Who has been very suspicious and resistant of my getting children professional help in the past.

[worriedStepmom]

My stepdaughter is almost 13 too.  Aren't they fun at that age?

H got SD a therapist 2 years ago.  Her mother is still very unhappy about this and is still trying to fire the therapist (which she does not have the legal right to do), because mom thinks that the only reason to have a therapist is to alienate child from mom.

We told SD that the therapist was her safe person.  She can tell him ANYTHING about ANYONE and he isn't going to reveal that information.  In your shoes, you might want to reference the stuff you've seen - "I've noticed you seem a little upset if the little kids talk about X, Y, or Z, and that you were worried about our covid19 preparations.  This is a really stressful time for everyone right now, with so much of the world changing, and we think it would be good for you to have a neutral person to talk to."  As long as you give the therapist the background, they should be able to steer the conversation around to the relationship with her mom at some point.

SD doesn't think she needs therapy anymore, so we struck a deal with her - I schedule her monthly appointments.  if she thinks she doesn't need it *and* we haven't seen any signs that she's upset, then we'll cancel it a few days before the appointment.  So she has some autonomy there, but we get veto rights. (Her T approved this method.)  That might work for your niece too.

[livednlearned]

Any advice on how to handle this with her ? She did see a phycologist  when she first came to live with us for a few times but was reluctant to continue and phycologist felt she was doing pretty well so we stopped.

I wonder if this is about finding a good fit? My son didn't care for his first therapist, which I didn't realize at the time. He told me later. Eventually we found the right person and it has been life changing.

You may also want to emphasize that the counselor is there for counseling, not for testifying in court. In the U.S., you can offer to sign a waiver that says the counselor will not be subpoenaed and the purpose of the visits are strictly therapeutic.

That's what I did with my son. I figured there would be other ways to document his dad's behavior (and there was) if it came to that. What was important was that my son had someone other than me to talk to.

Eventually, another person became involved in our case, a child psychologist who was trained to be a parenting coordinator, and she was able to talk to the therapist. So sometimes, some of the content of that therapeutic relationship can be trotted out in legal contexts.

For example, if someone reports child abuse and pins it to your sister, that person could talk to the therapist and combine that perspective without asking the child's therapist to appear and testify in court.

Also how best to communicate this to her mother ! Who has been very suspicious and resistant of my getting children professional help in the past.

Another possibility is to talk to the school's family specialist or guidance counselor, or both, and decide if they are potential allies for your kids. The guidance counselor at my son's middle school is, by my estimation, one of the reasons my son didn't completely unravel. He was brilliant. I had to help make the connection. The guidance counselors here in the US do a lot of testing and paperwork so he would use that pretext to call (then) S13 out of class just to check on him and see how he was doing. He also told S13 to go to the nurse if he wanted to talk to the GC without anyone knowing, their offices were next to each other.

With my ex, I managed to get professional help for then S9 by noticing something unrelated to what dad was doing.

Your sister probably fears having too much light shining on her parenting and cannot tolerate the potential shame involved in being seen. This might not be conscious, while also being powerful.

A lot of us have to be creative to get our kids into therapy where they can unload some of the trauma they're carrying.

[The awful Aunty]

I made appointments and messaged my sister that I thought children could use some extra support at the moment due to 1 2 3
I didn’t receive a reply and she wasn’t at boy12appointment.

Spoke with psychologist at start of appointment with child present that hoping they could discuss how they were feeling re conflict at the moment and worries about how adults were handling Covid restrictions and mentioned different expectations in each home . Also that I was concerned they were feeling they couldn’t share stories of time in the other home with other adult.

Boy12 has been seeing this phycologist monthly for a while to help with emotional regulation at school.  He worked on being more assertive by describing how he felt - what the problem was - what he’d like to happen
His take home examples were then telling me about what happens at his mum’s. ie There were no problems at mums, the movie we watched didn’t worry me

At end of appointment spoke quickly without child present and he feels he is doing well will see him in a month.
Maybe I am worrying more than I need to - maybe what I’m hearing from the mother isn’t being passed to the children ?
Such a hard situation always thinking the worst because of BPD mums communications to me.



 

[livednlearned]

It doesn't sound like he trusts adults to keep his confidence, including the therapist, would be my guess.

[The awful Aunty]

Could hardly blame him.
The children have often been made aware of far too much of the Family Court correspondence.