I am having a tough time disengaging

[Dad50]

So, it has been 2 months since my ex pwBPD and I broke up. Honestly we had 5 years of hell interspersed with such extremes high and closeness and always slivers of hope "if she could just learn to trust, stop being volatile". I spent 5 years wanting out and simultaneously trying to do just that one more thing that could just make her happy.  Spoiler alert. Nothing was ever enough. There was enough intermittent reward that I became almost like an addiction. The good times became fewer and fewer. I love her dearly, but being with her because just too, too painful.

So, here is my problem. To move past her and heal myself I have to let her go completely, but I am still letting her manipulate me. She wants to remain friends. Still go to the gym together. Still have lunch or dinner, and so on. I am so utterly co-dependent because I want her to be happy that I just go along. It is still "If I just do this one more thing..."

Within a day of breaking up she had found a new boyfriend. Within two weks she had met his family and vice versa. Whenever we get together all she does is say how she finally found her soulmate, comparing how much better he is than me, and on and on. I am glad she found someone because I thought maybe she would then let me go, but she wants to hold onto me too. I know I should just go no contact. Being with her is so painful and I am just broken inside. I feel so sad because it is like I lost her to a disease but she is still there.  It is like she keeps me around just to continue to inflict pain, but I still return.

What the hell is wrong with me? I know the tangible answer is just need to stop responding. I've tried the whole thing of writing down and reminding myself of all the pain she caused. Heck, I started documenting the abuse in 2017 because I was afraid she would accuse me of abuse.

This is so hard. I am so sad all the time. I feel broken. What is it that makes us return to someone who causes is so much pain.

[Desu95]

So, it has been 2 months since my ex pwBPD and I broke up. Honestly we had 5 years of hell interspersed with such extremes high and closeness and always slivers of hope "if she could just learn to trust, stop being volatile". I spent 5 years wanting out and simultaneously trying to do just that one more thing that could just make her happy.  Spoiler alert. Nothing was ever enough. There was enough intermittent reward that I became almost like an addiction. The good times became fewer and fewer. I love her dearly, but being with her because just too, too painful.

So, here is my problem. To move past her and heal myself I have to let her go completely, but I am still letting her manipulate me. She wants to remain friends. Still go to the gym together. Still have lunch or dinner, and so on. I am so utterly co-dependent because I want her to be happy that I just go along. It is still "If I just do this one more thing..."

Within a day of breaking up she had found a new boyfriend. Within two weks she had met his family and vice versa. Whenever we get together all she does is say how she finally found her soulmate, comparing how much better he is than me, and on and on. I am glad she found someone because I thought maybe she would then let me go, but she wants to hold onto me too. I know I should just go no contact. Being with her is so painful and I am just broken inside. I feel so sad because it is like I lost her to a disease but she is still there.  It is like she keeps me around just to continue to inflict pain, but I still return.

What the hell is wrong with me? I know the tangible answer is just need to stop responding. I've tried the whole thing of writing down and reminding myself of all the pain she caused. Heck, I started documenting the abuse in 2017 because I was afraid she would accuse me of abuse.

This is so hard. I am so sad all the time. I feel broken. What is it that makes us return to someone who causes is so much pain.

Dude you have to go no contact otherwise you will never heal. There will literally never be a possibility for you to have normal healthy relationship with her. Block her on everything and start going to therapy, journal daily even to get your emotions out. I know how hard it is but you to take care of yourself.

[babyducks]

What the hell is wrong with me?


 What is it that makes us return to someone who causes is so much pain.

Have you ever heard of trauma bonding?

[Dad50]

Dude you have to go no contact otherwise you will never heal. There will literally never be a possibility for you to have normal healthy relationship with her. Block her on everything and start going to therapy, journal daily even to get your emotions out. I know how hard it is but you to take care of yourself.

Yeah, I know this is 100% true. Meanwhile, I spent all night last night tossing and turning because she wanted to meet at the gym for a morning workout and then have breakfast together.  Of course we have to meet at the gym because her new boyfriend is at her house now.

All night I was like, maybe she wants to have breakfast to finally talk about ending this. Half hoping that it would be finally over, but then feeling like I don't have any agency to end it. So frustrating.

[Dad50]

Have you ever heard of trauma bonding?

Yeah, I am deep in the trauma bond. Still trying to make her happy, knowing that is not something I can do.

[babyducks]

Yeah, I am deep in the trauma bond. Still trying to make her happy, knowing that is not something I can do.

You are allowing her to define the terms of your life and what should be a shared relationship.    

You are continuing contact with a person who does and will cause you pain.    

You are going overboard to accommodate someone who has been destructive to you.

You are maintaining contact with an abuser who acknowledges no responsibility.

These are the signs of a trauma bond.

There are chemical and hormonal reasons for a trauma bond (sometimes called the betrayal  bond.)  But there are also emotional reasons for being 'hooked' into this type of bond.     If you don't address the emotional reasons for being hooked, progress will be slow or you will continue to repeat the same dysfunction.

Do you have a therapist?

[poppy2]

There are chemical and hormonal reasons for a trauma bond (sometimes called the betrayal  bond.)  But there are also emotional reasons for being 'hooked' into this type of bond.     If you don't address the emotional reasons for being hooked, progress will be slow or you will continue to repeat the same dysfunction.

Do you have a therapist?

I just wanna follow this thread because I'm also having a hard time disengaging, and I think this is now for emotional rather than chemical reasons.

What I found helpful in another post on this forum, I think in the 'did they ever love me' workshop, is the question about Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. So Dr. Jekyll loved me, I imagine, or at least was very caring and supportive towards me. Whereas Mr. Hyde has showed himself capable of not only disregarding my feelings, but also the integrity of my body and any dignity I deserve as a fellow human being in the world.

I'm still very much in the process, but I ask myself to what extent it is necessary to start to really admit to abuse in order to heal the emotional bond, which in my case in surely based on denial.. there is the kind of reality I want to believe in (my loving but troubled girlfriend with issues) and stayed in the situation based on this fantasy. Then there is the other reality (my narcissistic, emotionally disabled and abusive girlfriend), which I think I still haven't properly admitted to or let in.

Anyway, this is just good for thought and trying to help the conversation along. Of course ideally detaching means letting go and moving on into new life. But I think for detaching to really happen there has to be a deep emotional acknowledgment of, for example, the thought - I didn't matter to this person at all, based on their behaviour. That's my situation, probably your situation is different but maybe it has similar 'hard to admit' sides. And emotionally.accepting these things will, for me, I imagine, one day when I am ready, represent letting go.

I personally find it very difficult to accept I entered an emotional bond with somebody who isn't capable of love and trust, especially because of all the mixed signals around this at the beginning (vulnerability to 'hook' me, then control,distance and withdrawal which made me afraid). But as the other commentator mentions, this is what therapy is for.

[Desu95]

Yeah, I am deep in the trauma bond. Still trying to make her happy, knowing that is not something I can do.

I am almost 6 months out since I kicked her out of my apartment and although I recently relapsed after she reached out to me what really helped me was reading books about Trauma bonding.  I've spent countless hours researching anything and everything on BPD and cluster B personalities and the more I learned the more I have come to understand how truly sick these people are.  At one point what really helped me was to think of my ex as a demonic entity, I know it sounds cruel but how else would you describe someone who uses you as their "supply" and sucks the life out of you.  You might also think that they weren't always bad in fact some of the best times of your life might have been spent with your ex and guess what it was all by design, none of it was real.  Its taken me therapy and tons of research to come to this realization and I still have moments where I miss my ex and wonder if it could ever work if she stopped abusing substances and took therapy seriously.  Trauma bonds are no joke we are basically seeking comfort from the very source that is inflicting pain to us and it is the most sinister conundrum that I could ever imagine.  Another comforting yet cynical point of view is there is not a chance in hell that they will ever be in a happy and fulfilling long term relationship with ANYONE, no matter how perfect they make it seem initially they will always continue the same cycles with everyone for the rest of their lives.  I know that some of the stuff I am saying would upset some people with bpd because I've read plenty of posts saying that they can love or be in a healthy relationship eventually.  Its all bullPLEASE READ, maybe there are relationships with another cluster B personality and they live like Harley Quinn and the Joker but there is no chance that they can coexist happily long term with a non bpd. Borderlines have neurotic and psychotic traits there is no cure, no medication even a decade of extensive committed therapy would only yield a slight remission for the people.  So please cut off all contact, go see a therapist that is experienced with BPD/trauma bonds and do as much research as possible.

[grumpydonut]

Apologies for the opposition, Desu, but some of what you wrote is not true.

BPD can be treated and the success rates are actually remarkably high. In fact, a lot of borderlines get better even without treatment. One of the healing factors is aging. Before that, the issue is whether a borderline enters treatment to get better, to manipulate their partner, or avoids treatment altogether.

Do you think that maybe you want to believe she will never get better / have a successful relationship so that you can feel better about your situation / feel a sense of justice? If that's the case, completely understandable.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Dad50,

One of the things that was helpful to me was that I had to stop hoping that my ex would change. Well, actually the first step was that I had to realize that I was trying to get him to change. I thought that by being nice and kind that he would see the light. It was super painful to realize some things meant more to me than they did to him.

Cutting the emotional ties that bind us to the one we care about so much is truly a grieving process. None of us are anxious to take that step and deal with the pain that will surely come. I think It takes a whole lot of courage to step away and reduce the contact or go NC, giving yourself time to heal. It was one of the hardest steps in my detaching, and sometimes I find I am not yet done, for another opportunity to grieve a loss I hadn't seen before pops up. It's a journey.

You can do this. Bravery and courage and strength, and remember to have self compassion and kindness when you struggle with the emotional pain.

 
Wools

[babyducks]

its a given our partners are/were difficult.    they run the gamut from the mildly dysfunctional to the seriously mentally ill.    for certain our Ex's have a set of behaviors / maladaptive coping traits that are damaging and confounding.

what was also true for me is what Margalis Fjelstad's  said in her book: Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist.     when my Ex doubled down on her behavior, I doubled down on mine.     to over simplify - the worse the relationship got the more I was trying to save it, or fix it, or accept it.

anyone else, I think, would have just walked away.    not me.    I went back time after time.     certainly there was something about us in that relationship that felt like it fit together like a hand in a glove.

what was it about me that made me susceptible to  being in such dysfunction?    what was in me that made me want to stay in such dysfunction?    it takes two to tango.    and while my Ex's behavior was often larger than life and dreadful  enough to say  LOOK WHAT SHE DID  I should take responsibility for what was mine.

I remember when I first came here a very long time ago.     people would say that those who stay in dysfunctional abusive relationships are not emotionally mature.     and I would get very upset.    and sit here in front of my computer say I AM NOT I AM NOT I AM NOT   

I remember when I was with my partner now EX, and she said to me 'when I am with you the part of me that never really rests feels at peace'.    when she said that (years ago) I thought it was quite the complement.    I was so pleased.    I was so stupid.        truthfully my understanding of how people worked, how relationships fit together was - yep - immature.     

so being with my Ex, and then getting out of that relationship and healing made me a better person.    more emotionally intelligent.   better able to understand what people think and feel.      all and all being with my Ex was a win in that I learned and healed and grew some.     

[Desu95]

Apologies for the opposition, Desu, but some of what you wrote is not true.

BPD can be treated and the success rates are actually remarkably high. In fact, a lot of borderlines get better even without treatment. One of the healing factors is aging. Before that, the issue is whether a borderline enters treatment to get better, to manipulate their partner, or avoids treatment altogether.

Do you think that maybe you want to believe she will never get better / have a successful relationship so that you can feel better about your situation / feel a sense of justice? If that's the case, completely understandable.

It is mainly a point of view to assist in detachment from the trauma bond. Your response is exactly the thought that keeps the non BPD in pain and want to stick around with their BPD romantic partner to see it through at the off chance that they will change. I’ve done my research and have spoken to trained therapists, yes they can have some positive results with long term therapy but BPD never goes away, they simply learn how to identify their triggers and mitigate them in a more constructive way. For every story of a BPD patient in remission and doing  “well” in a romantic relationship with a non BPD there are 100 stories of them continuing to have unstable relationships even with DBT therapy. There is also a wide spectrum with this mental illness so I tend to agree it is difficult to generalize. However the non BPD on this board need help detaching and they need to stop looking through rose colored glasses otherwise it will be twice as difficult to heal.

[babyducks]

I am going to attempt to split a hair here and bring this topic back to Dad50 and his original question.

Your response is exactly the thought that keeps the non BPD in pain and want to stick around with their BPD romantic partner to see it through at the off chance that they will change.

this is a common topic on all these boards.    if I stay around will she/he get better?    is there a chance he/she will get better if I _______fill in the blank______.

this is also right there on the edge of pretty codependent type thinking.    in this example the non is acting in their own life conditionally on what some else will do or not do.     Saying I won't do X because they are doing Y is  world of difference between saying I won't do X because its not healthy for me.     the nuance of words and the motivation behind them matters.     

However the non BPD on this board need help detaching and they need to stop looking through rose colored glasses otherwise it will be twice as difficult to heal.

its hard to detach.    I found it was done in little pieces,  small steps at a time.     

Yeah, I am deep in the trauma bond. Still trying to make her happy, knowing that is not something I can do.

so I would suggest the question here isn't how can Dad50 make her happy or even should he try to make her happy but why is important for him to make her happy.   how does he feel when he tries to make her happy?    how does he feel when he fails to make her happy?    why is the attempt important and significant to him?

and I would say when I made my Ex happy - and she lite up in that BPD way - I felt like the best person in the world.     feed my ego.   and that was the hook for me.

'ducks

[Dad50]

Do you have a therapist?

Yes, I have a therapist. Your list is so black and white and exactly what is happening. I needed that.

[babyducks]

its part of fall out of being in these hyper charged relationships that we loose track of our sense of reality.    we over focus on what is going on with our partners.    and what we feel and think becomes fuzzy.

its part of healing to attempt to find out where our own sense of things went,  what reality actually is for us.   

my list was pretty black and white.    it also came from a website all about trauma bonds.      it can be a wake up moment to see just how unhealthy things have become.

[Dad50]

So, All of these responses are so helpful and ring so true.

I guess one thing bugging me is having to listen to how well she is treating her new boyfriend and there is that part of you that is just like, "If she just treated me this way."

For example, when we were together, I lived with her half the time at her place and half the time at my house because I had the kids. Even when I had the kids, I still got together with her 4 or 5 times a day. If I even asked for an extra hour at my house to take care of stuff she had an abandonment reaction, would scream that I was choosing my kids over her, tell me I needed to make up that hour. It didn't matter if we were about to spend 96 straight hours together, asking for 1 hour to myself caused an outburst.

Her new guy, who she is supposedly madly in love and is perfect, only goes over to her house a couple days a week. It is labor day holiday and everyone has the day off, and she is asking me to keep her company instead of her boyfriend because he went home. I actually said no, but the draw and pull to make her happy is so huge.

I am just sad because all I ever wanted was balance, and no it feels like sh is giving new guy that balance. I guess part of the reason she can balance it out is because I give her company when he is not there. Just working through both sadness and resentment. I would never have even dared not spending a holiday with her, ut with new guy it's okay I guess.

[babyducks]

she is asking me to keep her company instead of her boyfriend because he went home. I actually said no, but the draw and pull to make her happy is so huge.

do you feel up to looking at this a bit Dad50?     do you think you can shift the focus of attention from what she is doing/thinking/feeling to what you are doing/thinking/feeling?

I know this is hard to dig for but why do you think the draw and pull to make her happy is so huge?     what did you feel when you said No?    The good old FOG?   
Guilt ?   Fear?    Obligation?    Something else?    Anger?   

Upstream you said you didn't feel you had the agency to end the contact.     I suspect if you did a poll most of us here would say Yep.    You do have the agency to end contact.    Yes you do have the agency to say No.    but none of that really matters much because you don't feel that.     why is it so important to always do what she asks you?

[Cromwell]

we become the props that keep up the wobbly table called a relationship. Its the reason I totally withdrew when she went with other guys. If they were so "amazing" and I was "scum" then why not tie yourself around their necks, albatross style, and leave me the f alone?

the answer is, because my ex needed 24/7 attention and she knows that no reasonable minded person would put up with that. So they need "extras" to take part of that burden away so it does not create fractures and ruin the relationship prematurely.

Since I withdrew and seen her timeline on Facebook, it has been a constant rise and fall of empires. Im proud of myself that I did not provide an iota of myself to be exploited to be triangulated with and used in a way to keep these relationships. I hope that my absence led to their continual downfall and got these guys away - faster - to see what they got in store for. when new actors get pulled into the game it obscures and takes focus away from the pw BPD. it becomes "some other guy is trying to steal my girl, id better focus on that" and the spotlight is shifted away.

Stay away, they behave like puppet masters and laugh their ass off at the "fools" who fall for their drama creation and mind games. you win by cutting off all strings, I did it one by one over time, I recommend this as most of us have invested too emotionally complex to have an overnight severance cure.

[Dad50]

we become the props that keep up the wobbly table called a relationship. Its the reason I totally withdrew when she went with other guys. If they were so "amazing" and I was "scum" then why not tie yourself around their necks, albatross style, and leave me the f alone?

the answer is, because my ex needed 24/7 attention and she knows that no reasonable minded person would put up with that. So they need "extras" to take part of that burden away so it does not create fractures and ruin the relationship prematurely.

That is what it feels lie. For five years I tried that 24/7 attention. She knows she can't expect that from anyone else, but now she has me to fulfill that need why she allows new guy to give her normal amount of attention.

[Cromwell]

for 3 years I tried and I did not mind doing so, except I did not realise what was really going on. The issue is, I had a full time job to do. Other friendships and even family relationships became put into the periphery. None of that sufficed. She fantasised that I was cheating on her with work colleagues, her paranoia was to want to know each and every person I worked with and to meet as many of them as she could. (she contacted a few of them behind my back via social media).

24/7 commitment is an unpaid job. It is babysitting someone elses kid.

it is probably a defence mechanism on their part to create as big a network as possible and not have trust and reliance on just one. It would be worse than putting everything you owned and on margin into one single stock. worse because the fallout psychologically for them is a form of catastrophe break, rather than a bankruptcy. So I dont blame them for avoiding that risk, id probably do the same in that circumstance. The thing is, once it has been recognised for what it is, the onus is to become decisive.

do I want to live that way? can I afford to keep doing so. etc.

maybe its fine for a single, millionaire who does not need to work and who is content with a bpd relationship with an oncall therapist(s) to intervene when needed, they can provide 24/7 attention. For the bulk mainstream, there are many other things in life than a person who needs constant care. 24/7 is eventually not living a life or having anything to talk about. my ex would not care, to lay in bed all day and stare into my eyes. but her condition permits her for this, it makes it ok for her.

detaching is about confirming "who is Cromwell, what does he want, not want" and from there can be decisive.

Dad50: "she has me to fulfill that need" 

I was a bit of a people pleaser too, perhaps, within limits. If I still was, one thing I know is there are millions of folk out there happy to hook up with a people pleaser, and they dont have to be high maintenance with mental issues such as BPD.

[Dad50]

So, this morning she tells me all about how new guy is preparing to move in, all the great things he is doing, how fabulous he is.

Then an hour later says if I want we can try again. Part of me starts to strategize how we can make it work and try again. I am just ridiculously broken.  Just putting it out here so the universe knows what ridiculousness is going on in y mind. I tried to get out of this relationship for four years. She found a new guy. They are preparing to move in. And part of me still jumps when she says maybe we can try again.

Thanks for listening and understanding the crazy.  Boy does it hurt. Taking some solace in those of you who hae found the strength to go no contact.

[Cant breathe]

Please, please do not jump back in. I am here after the fourth, heck maybe the fifth, jump back in failed. Yes, it is so difficult to admit, but this person is terrible for your well-being. I'm struggling now because I know if my ex called me and apologized (he is terrible at apologies, btw) I would begin contact again. And that makes me so angry at myself. Like your former partner, it was all love-bombing at the start, but all pain at the end. Pain for me. Him? He moved on as well. We all need to stick together and march away from this chaos. I hope we succeed.

[Dad50]

Please, please do not jump back in. I am here after the fourth, heck maybe the fifth, jump back in failed. Yes, it is so difficult to admit, but this person is terrible for your well-being. I'm struggling now because I know if my ex called me and apologized (he is terrible at apologies, btw) I would begin contact again. And that makes me so angry at myself. Like your former partner, it was all love-bombing at the start, but all pain at the end. Pain for me. Him? He moved on as well. We all need to stick together and march away from this chaos. I hope we succeed.

More of this I needed. She is not even nice to me and I still want to go back and "make her feel happy so then she will be nice to me".    I mean, she literally tells me she found the love of her life and soul mate, but if you want to try again we can. I  can say all this stuff out loud, and it definitely helps, but so much of me is screaming inside my head to go back. Trying to stay strong.

[poppy2]

very small tip here, and maybe it's helpful. It actually comes from DBT tools - if you feel a really strong urge, and know it's unhealthy, match it with a counter-urge, like ice cubes or cold water on your arms. It sounds like youre in a place where 'get out of my head' techniques like that could be helpful. I use the water one when I'm getting too angry (don't have BPD at all, just found it useful for intense states)

[I Am Redeemed]

Dad50,

Can you think of any other time in your life when you might have tried very hard to "make someone happy" so they would love you? Childhood, adolescence, young adulthood?

It may be helpful to determine if this is a pattern or familiar behavior for you in order to trace the root of this urge.

[grumpydonut]

I’ve done my research and have spoken to trained therapists, yes they can have some positive results with long term therapy but BPD never goes away, they simply learn how to identify their triggers and mitigate them in a more constructive way.

https://bpded.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2051-6673-1-20

77% of patients who undertook DBT no longer met the criteria for BPD after the first year of treatment.

For every story of a BPD patient in remission and doing  “well” in a romantic relationship with a non BPD there are 100 stories of them continuing to have unstable relationships even with DBT therapy

I understand you're angry at your ex, most of us here are, but we should be careful to create false narratives.

Your response is exactly the thought that keeps the non BPD in pain and want to stick around with their BPD romantic partner to see it through at the off chance that they will change

None of what I'm writing is to convince someone to stay with their BPD partner. I just don't think it's fair of us to undermine the facts in order to detach. My view is that our detachment shouldn't be dependent on our ex in the first instance.

[babyducks]

hello Dad50

She is not even nice to me and I still want to go back and "make her feel happy so then she will be nice to me".   

Think this through.     what's down this road if you follow this compulsion?    what happens next month?     Next year?     what are you doing to yourself?    what are you doing to her by participating in this crazy making behavior.    what happens to The New Guy?   what examples are you creating for your children?   

I mean, she literally tells me she found the love of her life and soul mate, but if you want to try again we can.

At this point, its not about her and how she is acting.     Its about you.   About your boundaries.     About what you want.     about why your expectations are down to mere crumbs and you are okay with that.     


Did you notice I Am Redeemed?    why do you think there is a voice screaming inside your head?

Can you think of any other time in your life when you might have tried very hard to "make someone happy" so they would love you? Childhood, adolescence, young adulthood?

It may be helpful to determine if this is a pattern or familiar behavior for you in order to trace the root of this urge.