BPD husband stopping me from visiting my family

[Wehave2cats]

My first post and hoping to get some advice. In the first few years of my marriage (husband has suspected but undiagnosed BPD/NPD), I would go to my hometown  about twice a year. It is on the other side of the country, about a 4.5 hour plane ride away. For various reasons (Covid, baby, etc) I haven't gone back for 6 years and now I desperately want to go to visit my aging mother and rest of family. My husband has particular issue with my mother (although they used to get along well, now he wants nothing to do with her). I broached the subject a few months ago - saying we could all go together or an option is that I go alone with my 7-year old (although I made it clear that is not what I prefer as to not trigger his abandonment feelings). He turned the conversation into a rollercoaster of nonsensical thoughts and ended with him in a rage and deciding that 1) he won't go with me/we aren't going and 2) if I try to go and take my 7-year old without him, he will issue an amber alert, call the police or some other form of retaliation (e.g. take my daughter on a separate vacation without me). I always end up giving in to him (on so many fronts it is embarrassing to admit) but I just can't let him do this to me. But every mention of this trip just puts him into a rage or he plays the victim ('why would you want to put me in an uncomfortable/abusive situation with your mother?' (she doesn't abuse him, I believe she triggers trauma from his childhood). I don't want a divorce because where I live it is almost always 50/50 custody and I would be scared for my daughter to be with him for stretches of time alone (I will wait to take any divorce action until she is older). Any and all advice is welcome, I'm at a loss. Thank you!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

What would concern you about taking your daughter on this vacation and then letting him take her on another vacation?

[Notwendy]

This is fear based behavior- which is why it doesn't make sense. It's controlling. What he may be thinking is- if you leave you won't come back, or you will find someone else, or some other irrational fear that feels real to him. This is why none of your proposed "solutions" are acceptable to him. He doesn't want you to go and that's the only thing he wants.

This, for you, is a boundary- a boundary reflects our own values. For you this means, your family matters to you and you want to see them.  For other things, you have been willing to compromise. Seeing your family matters to you. Boundaries are important but they are also conflict points. This is also a common issue for people in marriage with someone with BPD- separating the partner from family and friends. Unfortunately, not going along with their wishes becomes a difficult conflict point.

I don't know all that goes into an Amber alert, but taking a child on a trip isn't abduction and I wonder if you have some way to legally prove you didn't abduct her. I don't know all that goes into that, but people who do this don't let people know their location. The Amber alert is so that people can find them. The child isn't missing if everyone knows where she is. On the other hand, he too could take her on a trip, and that's a concern for you.

I don't think him not wanting to see your mother is the real reason but you can take care of this too. You could stay somewhere else, like an Airbnb nearby and he doesn't have to see your family. Maybe that's strange to them but so what, if it makes the visit possible, well that's how it is. Is there something he might want to do while he is there? What activities nearby would he possibly enjoy doing?  Would it be possible to combine the trip with a family trip- like a stopover on the way or going somewhere before or after?

[15years]

Up until recently I was afraid (still am a little to be honest) that my wife would tell me I had to stay home from work because of some distress. Because I've been worried how she will cope if she's in distress and if she will be able to take care of our 2yo son.

Now I was in that position one day this week, and I didn't agree to stay home. I didn't give it too much energy either, I didn't argue with her about it. It worked fine, everything was like normal when I came home from work.

1. He will probably be fine if/when you're gone. Or he will come along.
2. Don't argue about it too much, try to find a way to not talk too much about it but still do it.
3. He probably know that it's a normal thing to do to visit family with your daughter, so I don't think he will embarrass himself by involving other people or authorities.

[Wehave2cats]

Thank you everyone for your perspectives. A few things:
- my issue with him taking my daughter on a separate vacation is that he can't cope with her in times of stress (e.g. sometimes she has anxiety in the middle of the night and while I calm her down in 5 min, this triggers him and it turns into a 1-2 hour crying/screaming match between them; and in general, he doesn't have the skills to take care of her as much as he should have). But she is getting older and maybe this is more of a possibility - I think that is only a threat at this point and not sure if he would actually do it
- I proposed staying someone other than my Mom's and doing fun activities he likes, such as skiing
- I'm going to give him some months to cool off about this, continue to do research (I just started 'stop walking on eggshells) and think of a new strategy for how to approach again - at this point I'm thinking of saying "This is important to me, I'm booking tickets for all of us to go, this is when we are going." and leave it at that...

[PeteWitsend]

If you're really worried about his amber alert threat, I'd get an opinion from someone who's an expert on the topic, or for sure a family law attorney on how to prevent that.  

I'm thinking aloud here, but you can't technically - i.e. according to the laws as written - kidnap a child you're the legal guardian of and you have a right to possess at that time, right?  That's why most of the cases I seem to see around here involve ex-husbands or wives absconding with their kids during the time the other parent has custody.

And by calling an Amber Alert, he's filing a false police report, which is an actual crime in most - if not all - of the US.  Call his bluff... tell him he'd go to jail for that.

[PeteWitsend]

in my experience, BPDxw would also refuse to allow our D to travel to see my family.  

It was always an empty threat.  In the end her fears of abandonment/being left alone would overcome her anger or refusal to visit, and she'd insist on coming.

The bigger issue then was that she'd come along, but pick fights over every little thing someone did or said that she didn't like, and/or generally make the trip miserable for me, presumably to send a message that it just wasn't worth it.

[Wehave2cats]

I can't tell you how helpful all your replies are - THANK YOU. I also think the Amber alert is a bluff and that yes, he would get into trouble for that.

Next question (sorry!) - any advice on how I broach the subject to go on this trip? I brought it up in February and that was a disaster so now I'm letting him cool done. Will maybe bring it back up in Sep, in hopes of going for XMAS. I initially positioned it as "I haven't been home in 6 years and this means a lot to me, here is how we can make it more comfortable for you as well as I really want us all to go as a family."

I realize after learning about BPD that he doesn't care about my needs and has no empathy for being away from my family (we live in the same town as all of his family, but he has few ties to them/they don't reach out).

Do I just say "I know you don't want to visit my family, but we are going, altogether. I will book the trip." And if he gives me threats or refuses to go, I just say "well, I'm booking tickets for all 3 of us - if you don't want to join, that is your choice. Seeing my family more regularly is very important to me."

What do you think?

[kells76]

Hey Wehave2cats,

You're in good company on these boards -- you are definitely not the only member who has a pwBPD in their life who threatens to not go on trips, threatens to not let others go on trips, doesn't go on trips, creates hurdles to see family... yup, you're in the right place.

I also think the Amber alert is a bluff and that yes, he would get into trouble for that.

Same. And, if it were me, I would not educate him about that. Keep that info to yourself. He's an adult, and if he chooses to try to implement an AMBER alert, then he is adult enough to deal with the fallout. He is perfectly capable of Googling "should I request an AMBER alert". Not your job.

any advice on how I broach the subject to go on this trip? I brought it up in February and that was a disaster so now I'm letting him cool done. Will maybe bring it back up in Sep, in hopes of going for XMAS. I initially positioned it as "I haven't been home in 6 years and this means a lot to me, here is how we can make it more comfortable for you as well as I really want us all to go as a family."

One of the hardest things about dealing with a pwBPD is having the courage to move forward with your plans and what you think is best, no matter what. My DH's kids' mom has many BPD type traits, and last year, when we had an overseas trip with the kids -- that mind you, we let her know about a year in advance, and for which many months ahead of time she went with DH to get passports for the kids -- the kids told us about a week before it "Mom doesn't want us to go, Mom doesn't think it's a good idea". DH and I had to mentally prepare ourselves for the possibility that when we went to pick up the kids, Mom might say "they're not going" and she might've "convinced" them to say "we don't want to go". So we made peace ahead of time with saying "That's too bad, we'll miss you so much and we'll see you when we get back". Fortunately we all did go but we had to be in that mindset -- not to "play the game" of begging, pleading, trying to convince, etc.

Sometimes you have to literally pay a lot of money to have that peace of mind  i.e. we had to be ready to "eat" the cost of the kids' tickets. That's kind of where I'm leaning with your situation -- there are ways to structure it where you can move forward with your plans, with a door open for him to participate, without huge time sensitive decisions hanging on his Yes or No. I suspect you'd get a lot of stonewalling if you said "please, we have to buy tickets soon, please tell me if you want to go or not". That would give him a lot of power.

You may need to buy all 3 tickets, and instead of JADE-ing (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0), "decide and inform" with warmth and an inclusive open door, exactly like you're thinking of doing:

"well, I'm booking tickets for all 3 of us - if you don't want to join, that is your choice. Seeing my family more regularly is very important to me."

In fact, there's another acronym you'll see around here called BIFF, which stands for Brief, Informative, Friendly, and Firm. We can kindly and without extra words or justifications let the other person know what WE are doing. So, you could tweak your statement to be like:

"Hey babe, I've booked tickets for all 3 of us; while I'd love it if you came, you can decide if you want to or not."

Notice you've eliminated the "explanation" of how important your family is to you. While it's true, explanations rarely if ever "convince" a pwBPD. Keep the target small, move ahead with your plans and values, leave a door open for joining, and leave the decision in his court.

In terms of when to bring it up, maybe figure out when you absolutely need to buy tickets by, do it, and inform after.

These aren't easy situations.

...

Also, re: him taking your D on a trip "as payback" -- I'd believe it when I see it. So often pwBPD are "all talk" and little followthrough. He can "threaten" to take her on a trip all day long, but it takes executive function to do it. I sort of think it's bluster. Of course, if there are bigger safety issues, that's not nothing. More just reflecting on ALL the stuff I've heard and how little of it I saw acted upon.

[thankful person]

2 cats,
Welcome to the forum. I just wanted to say I totally sympathise and relate to your situation. I am in a lesbian marriage and my wife is the biological mother of our two little girls, who are only just 1 and 2. She also breastfeeds them and sleeps with them. So I have very little control. We rarely see my family even though my father is elderly and sick. We are moving away for financial reasons and I feel that some point in the future when the children are older, I will be trying to tackle this, as you are. I know they may never see my father again and it breaks my heart. I have made so many incredible improvements to my relationship with my wife, through the reading I have done and advice on the website and the boards here. But it’s horrible having to go over every little sentence in advance trying to make sure we present things confidently, upkeeping boundaries, handling the reaction calmly etc etc. I hope you get to take your little girl to see your family. Good luck with everything.

[fisher101]

How is this not abuse?