Is this a milestone?

[StartingHealing]

This may be a confusing post but hopefully this will help me figure things out.

Been working on myself, which is fairly new,  been doing the No JADE-ing, SET, and remembering that she has a PD.  that she isn't a person of normalcy.  If that makes sense.  Boundaries are being implemented, slowly.   All of this is still pretty new to me.  Along with standing up for myself.  Which is at times very uncomfortable.   Yet, the more I do it, the more at ease I am.

I realized that I have "power" in the relationship with the wBPD.  50% of the relationship is my responsibility, right?   Then add in that I had given my power over instead of holding it close and acting in my own self interest.  I'm feeling that I'm starting to get it back. 

Some of the things that I have found to be useful to me in this journey besides the resources here, reading a ton, but then adding in some critical thinking skills, and various podcasts / videos / etc.

From a podcast " Take a step back, widen your field of view, take a deep breath and then see things as they are and then decide."

Currently, the no JADE-ing, SET, medium chill, boundaries, validation, have definitely helped the relationship ... and yet, there are doubts.  I understand that the doubts are from before I was aware of BPD.

Even after learning about BPD, I still have doubts.  I think that this is normal considering everything.   

I have been working on being able to "see" what actually is, how she actually is, rather than being stuck in being in love with a fantasy that I had created in my own head.   At the beginning with the mirroring and love bombing.. then the machinations after...

It appears to me at this moment, that the usual language she uses when she is attempting to manipulate is Shaming, Insults, Guilt, and Need to be right.   

Now, I'm starting to accept that I do have options. 

What options do I have?  I'm starting to explore that area.  It may sound like I am being selfish here but I'm not attempting to be.  I am attempting to have a healthy self interest / self protection. 

Some of the questions I have are:

Do I stay in the relationship?   What are the probabilities of obtaining a decent / good relationship if I stay?  Continuing with the tools / skills and working on myself of course.

Do I leave this relationship?  This is just thinking out loud here.  If I do, what are the probabilities of where I will end up?   What kind of crap will I have to go through to get there?

I'm attempting to remain objective in all of this.  Not denying my emotions but at the same time, not allowing them to cloud my vision of things, if that makes sense.

 I know that I have been enmeshed with her.  I do believe that I am well along the path on reversing that.  Which is a good thing. 

While I do find it odd that it feels like I'm less "connected" in a way, the peace of mind is really nice.

A thank you to everyone here that has helped me get to this point.  It is appreciated.

peace

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Silverdash]

This is great to read. Sorry I've no guidance to offer.

[PhoenixKnight]

Not a lot to add mate but that is a brilliant post. Really inspirational. You’ve done absolutely everything you can, so whatever happens in your relationship you should be proud and hold your head high.

Your partner is lucky to have you.

[Cat Familiar]

Feeling “less connected” is a sign that you are not engaging in codependent behaviors. It can initially feel odd and uncomfortable, particularly if codependency has been a lifelong pattern.

My thoughts are that many of us have bought into a misguided concept of romantic love—that *the two of us become one*. Perhaps that can work well with someone who is emotionally healthy—I certainly don’t know; I’ve never had an emotionally healthy spouse. 

But trying to be *one* with a disordered partner is a recipe for disaster, or at least tremendous discomfort.

If you look at “less developed cultures” it seems that most have autonomous roles for each marital partner, with a lot of separate social connections for both partners. Yet, in the Western world, so often we think our friends should only be friends if they are *friends* with the marital couple. In this way, we miss out on a lot of social support and normalcy when we have a BPD spouse.

[StartingHealing]

Feeling “less connected” is a sign that you are not engaging in codependent behaviors. It can initially feel odd and uncomfortable, particularly if codependency has been a lifelong pattern.

My thoughts are that many of us have bought into a misguided concept of romantic love—that *the two of us become one*. Perhaps that can work well with someone who is emotionally healthy—I certainly don’t know; I’ve never had an emotionally healthy spouse. 

But trying to be *one* with a disordered partner is a recipe for disaster, or at least tremendous discomfort.

If you look at “less developed cultures” it seems that most have autonomous roles for each marital partner, with a lot of separate social connections for both partners. Yet, in the Western world, so often we think our friends should only be friends if they are *friends* with the marital couple. In this way, we miss out on a lot of social support and normalcy when we have a BPD spouse.

Thank you Cat.  Ran across this quote .. If you are healthy then your consistent as a person.  That just blew me away.

   Yeppers, having a social circle outside of the BPD spouse is a helpful thing.  We like to think that we are soo advanced but in so many ways we are far far less than the people that are "less advanced"

 It's weird for me at the moment, on the one hand, I'm so saddened by learning what I have been learning, grief you know?  On the other hand, it's nice knowing that while I may have my own "ish" I'm not as jacked up as I once thought I was.  I still have things to work on for sure, but now it's for myself.

Don't know if you have seen the other post of mine but looking at it now,  I'm not going to go back to the way it all was before. I'll still continue in learning about BPD and tools / techniques and applying them.  But I'm not going to go back into that space where I had been where it was all my fault, I'm the evil, mean, nasty, adultery doing, etc.etc. 

Peace

[Rev]

What a great thread...

Healing - you've framed things so well.

Cat - great insights and I can say that I've never had a healthy spouse until now. And the greatest thing about it is that she accepts that I have other friends and doesn't recoil in any way. 

Which leads me to something new - a healthy net work outside the relationship needs to be one that respects the relationship. Neither my spouse nor I really share with our friends the tough stuff. The tough stuff we work out on our own. Another healthy sign.

Which then leads to this - A healthy group of friends that respects the relationship helps us respect ourselves in the relationship, if that makes any sense. From there, each person really knows what is acceptable for them, boundaries become clearer, apologies easier to offer and accept.   

In my last relationship, the one that brought me here, the abuse started in the form of her cutting me off. I'm not sure that I was co-dependent in the relationship as much as progressively isolated - and when that happened, I began to find myself looking to my friends for help precisely because I couldn't look my spouse.

Bottom line - a major, major red flag is anything that encourages us to think that, as Cat says, "I am the one" or "This relationship should be so complete that I shouldn't need any others".

Hang in there everyone.

Rev

[StartingHealing]

What a great thread...

Healing - you've framed things so well. Thank you.

Cat - great insights and I can say that I've never had a healthy spouse until now. And the greatest thing about it is that she accepts that I have other friends and doesn't recoil in any way. 

Which leads me to something new - a healthy net work outside the relationship needs to be one that respects the relationship. Neither my spouse nor I really share with our friends the tough stuff. The tough stuff we work out on our own. Another healthy sign.
I can see that. Sounds wonderful.

Which then leads to this - A healthy group of friends that respects the relationship helps us respect ourselves in the relationship, if that makes any sense. From there, each person really knows what is acceptable for them, boundaries become clearer, apologies easier to offer and accept.    Makes total sense

In my last relationship, the one that brought me here, the abuse started in the form of her cutting me off. I'm not sure that I was co-dependent in the relationship as much as progressively isolated - and when that happened, I began to find myself looking to my friends for help precisely because I couldn't look my spouse. I admit that I have some issues, tender areas but it seems to me at this moment that is how it happened for me as well as far as being isolated.  Don't have a friend circle at the moment.  I have a cousin and my adult daughter that I can talk with.  Need to implement some boundaries around so many things.. 

Bottom line - a major, major red flag is anything that encourages us to think that, as Cat says, "I am the one" or "This relationship should be so complete that I shouldn't need any others".

That is exactly what it appears to me that she is doing.
 Yes, there are "friends" she has but she has the darnedest luck in picking them.. Somehow or another, eventually they "turn" on her and she's no longer friends with them.

Hang in there everyone.

Rev

[Rev]

 Yes, there are "friends" she has but she has the darnedest luck in picking them.. Somehow or another, eventually they "turn" on her and she's no longer friends with them.

Hallmark of a pwBPD, which when you really think about it, is pretty sad. It is not uncommon to see a pattern that repeats.

My ex would find a way to blow up everything or distance herself about every two years. Anything that persisted beyond that would cause her to spiral into worse places and then she would end up causing herself more damage with wider swings.

Kind of surreal to me to see that now.

Rev

[StartingHealing]

Rev,

How do you find the strength to continue in a situation that has finally been made clear and you have been changing your behavior but there hasn't been enough time to see the results of that in the other's responses to it?

Feeling rather ... fragile.. I guess.

Peace

[Cat Familiar]

How do you find the strength to continue in a situation that has finally been made clear and you have been changing your behavior but there hasn't been enough time to see the results of that in the other's responses to it?

This is an opportunity to build up *self-reference* rather than *other-reference*.

By that I mean, doing one’s best regardless of how someone else responds to it. Certainly you can use external response as feedback and continuously refine your behavior. The difference being that, as opposed to other-reference, you give yourself props for being your best self, rather than seeking validation and appreciation from someone else.

So many of us here are codependents, people pleasers, and/or caretakers. We’ve been in the habit of filtering our self worth through how others respond to us.

A different way of moving though the world is to provide your own positive reinforcement for trying your best, knowing that what is *best* will continuously change and improve over time, as you learn more.

[Rev]

Rev,

How do you find the strength to continue in a situation that has finally been made clear and you have been changing your behavior but there hasn't been enough time to see the results of that in the other's responses to it?

Feeling rather ... fragile.. I guess.

Peace

I think Cat has it.

Bear in mind that ultimately my relationship didn't last - for very legitimate reasons. She was abusive - enough that I did an MA thesis on the topic of male victims.

I guess that in my case, I got myself to a place in my mind, literally after both my parents died within 6 months of each other, that I began to discern what my values really were.

And then I began to detach from the parts of my relationship that didn't resonnate with them. It takes friends to help you do this because it takes integrity to not fool yourself or play the victim.

So it wasn't a case of being strong so much as being clear. And with clarity cones strength.

Hope thar helps.

Hang in there.

Rev

[StartingHealing]

I think Cat has it.

Bear in mind that ultimately my relationship didn't last - for very legitimate reasons. She was abusive - enough that I did an MA thesis on the topic of male victims.

I guess that in my case, I got myself to a place in my mind, literally after both my parents died within 6 months of each other, that I began to discern what my values really were.

And then I began to detach from the parts of my relationship that didn't resonnate with them. It takes friends to help you do this because it takes integrity to not fool yourself or play the victim.

So it wasn't a case of being strong so much as being clear. And with clarity cones strength.

Hope thar helps.

Hang in there.

Rev

Rev,

What a subject for a thesis.  It's very cool to me that you were able to do that.

If you wouldn't mind, what was your process in getting clarity? 

[StartingHealing]

Another Milestone?

What a weekend. 

Friday, did a movie and got takeout for me and WwBPD/NPD.  It went pretty good seemingly.   there was some issues with the DVD player that I was able to correct, and then there was some issues with one of the disks that I had rented.

To me it seemed like it went well. Even though there were some small glitches.  She seemed like she appreciated it.

then on Sat she went to do her mermaid thing after we took our dog to the park for a morning walk.   Shoot, I'm fine with her mermaid - ing, I mean it gets her out of the house and exercise.  While she was gone, I made a post about my own emotional stress, anxiety, etc.  I get that my emotional whirlwind is totally normal considering all the factors. 

I also have been doing more around the house since, well, I have been waiting for like a shared responsibility.  Buuuuttttt,  according to her, the condition of the house is a direct result of how the marriage / relationship is.  Sigh

So, on Sunday, had lots of things going on.  We did the morning dog walk.  I make colloidal silver, and needed to make more since Wwbpd gifted all we had to a couple of her mermaid friends on Sat.  Which I'm fine with.  It takes 6 to 7 hours, and there are readings I have to capture on a regular basis.  Then I was also digitizing media, something that also requires intermittent attention.  I was up and down off the couch pretty regular.

When it got time to go to the dinner and movie. She was dressed to go out, but she declined to go. 

While I was out and about, I was dealing with anxiety.  Like, really?  I'm really confused on my emotional state.  Which is also a emotional state.  Seesh.. (chuckle)

When we got back, she was still on the couch, watching the media that I had digitized.  She was reserved but friendly.

Then I got a call from Wwbpd/npd other son.  She allowed him to be adopted.  Which she is blaming me for.  Which is her projecting right?   I mean, she was pregnant when we got together, she knew that I was adopted, and I told her specifically that (we were not married yet) if you want to keep the child we can make it work.  If you don't want to then as long as it's an open adoption, that is cool as well.  She chose the open adoption route. 

After the call, since I had work today, I needed to go to sleep.  I went out to the living room and gave her a probiotic, said I needed to go to sleep.

Went to sleep and don't know how long it took for her to come to bed.

Got up this morning, got ready for work. Got to work and sent her a text with a pic of a clock so she knows that I wasn't in a wreck on the way to work.  I also send her a text with a pic of a watch when I am leaving work, because ... Well, she is afraid of me not being there I guess.

Texted, hope you slept good, her reply was about a jury duty thing that has been going on for a couple of months.  Filled out the online form, several times, she had her orthopedic doctor send in a doctors note excluding her.  She does have physical limitations. 

I know that jury duty thing has been weighing on her.  But even after many days of validation / not being invalidating over this one thing, she's still wound up about it. 

Now she's pissed over that I have stepped up cleaning.  No like a huge huge amount, but small things. 


The rest I'm going to put into my post Oh Hell:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=353150.0

I'm still working on getting what Cat Familiar has mentioned on self - referencing. 

Please, add comments, please help me with your comments. 

Peace

[Rev]

Rev,

What a subject for a thesis.  It's very cool to me that you were able to do that.

If you wouldn't mind, what was your process in getting clarity? 

I'll lay it out for you by tomorrow.  Been a while since I really thought about it.

Rev

[StartingHealing]

I'll lay it out for you by tomorrow.  Been a while since I really thought about it.

Rev

Thank you!

[Rev]

Thank you!

You're welcome.

So the question is: How did I obtain clarity during the months leading up to my separation?

The first step came to fruition when my father died. My mother had died six months earlier and he was in a hospice. On the morning of his death, my then wife and I are away on a long weekend, and our return home has been delayed because of a snow storm - which frankly wasn't so bad that we could not have made it home. But she is becoming emotional and I don't want to fight.

I rearrange my schedule that day, and choose not to report for work or to go to school (at this stage I'm in the middle of an MA in Psychotherapy - how ironic).

Anyway, during the night, I get a phone call from the hospice to  let me know that my father died. And right on schedule, that morning, my wife needs to start a fight because when I call my daughter (who decidedly does not get along with my wife - put them both in a room and close the door behind you, I'd say), my ex says I threw her under the bus, when really, all I want to do is convey the news to my daughter that her grandfather has died - and then I want to just get some alone time.

She absolutely explodes in the car and wants me to drop her off in the next town on our way home. Today, if I could do it over again, I would have driven straight to the police station. No matter, that is not what I do.  I simply tell her "no". And while I am driving 120 kms/hr on the highway, she pulls on the steering wheel!

To be honest, I was never the same with her after that day.  But one thing that did happen is that I stopped pushing through the small signs - if you understand what I mean. I think that in the midst of my grief, I lived in a numb place that just allowed me to see how, bit by bit, the pieces did not add up because they had never added up.

My ex was my second wife, and while my parents were alive in the world, I just couldn't go to the place to make it understood (for a whole bunch of reasons that became clear in my thesis research) that she was abusive. I couldn't face a second failed marriage.

But when the voice of my parents, my father in particular, where "gone" so to speak, it became easier to face the reality.

I had a convenient excuse to detach from her because I needed to get my parent's affairs in order. And that only caused her to escalate her anger. To say she lacked empathy in the wake of my parents' death is an understatement.

Finally, one day, when I discovered that she was messing with our finances again, and in my new, numb and detached state of mind, I confronted her with an ultimatum that we go for counselling. Calm and straight forward request, knowing full well that this would trigger a divorce. And so it did.

I'm not saying that relationships with people who suffer from mood disorders are not possible. I am saying though, that men have trouble identifying abuse and that if your relationship is abusive, get out.

Bottom line - to get clarity, I needed to "get sober" emotionally so I could find time to stop normalizing abusive behavior and behavior in her that frankly, I just didn't respect. At that time, I may have loved her still. But I really didn't like her very much. I really didn't like who I had become and that, I needed to admit to myself was no fault of anyone but myself.  When I got myself there, things became clear as day.

The aftermath of that led me to these boards. I was a mess - lived with friends for six weeks to get myself together and move into a new place and start over.

Today, my career has never been better. I am engaged to a great woman. The shame of this being my 3rd wife has left - It is what it is, so why give up?

Hope this helps. When things become clear, you'll know what to do in your particular situation. There is no truth about yourself that will cause you to fail - only the fear the of it.

Reach out any time.

Hang in there.

Rev

[StartingHealing]

You're welcome.

So the question is: How did I obtain clarity during the months leading up to my separation?

The first step came to fruition when my father died. My mother had died six months earlier and he was in a hospice. On the morning of his death, my then wife and I are away on a long weekend, and our return home has been delayed because of a snow storm - which frankly wasn't so bad that we could not have made it home. But she is becoming emotional and I don't want to fight.

My deepest sympathy for your parents passing. 
That pattern of behavior sounds very familiar. IDK if it's a attention thing, or if it's from fear of abandonment or ?  I have had many situations like that.

I rearrange my schedule that day, and choose not to report for work or to go to school (at this stage I'm in the middle of an MA in Psychotherapy - how ironic).  Very ironic indeed.  I have done similar things.  Rework a schedule, rework finances, to accommodate. 

Anyway, during the night, I get a phone call from the hospice to  let me know that my father died. And right on schedule, that morning, my wife needs to start a fight because when I call my daughter (who decidedly does not get along with my wife - put them both in a room and close the door behind you, I'd say), my ex says I threw her under the bus, when really, all I want to do is convey the news to my daughter that her grandfather has died - and then I want to just get some alone time.

Similar situation with my daughter and wBPD.  Definite way to start a fight with wBPD is for me to call my daughter and she knows about it.  It's like they don't savvy that their behaviors have the opposite effect on us nons.    They do not cotton to each other and if they ended up in a room, my daughter would be the only one walking out.  My daughter is a 2cd degree blackbelt in a mixed martial art.  Yeah, she's a badass and as a Dad, I'm proud of her. Yeah, the lack of understanding from wBPD.. SMH

She absolutely explodes in the car and wants me to drop her off in the next town on our way home. Today, if I could do it over again, I would have driven straight to the police station. No matter, that is not what I do.  I simply tell her "no". And while I am driving 120 kms/hr on the highway, she pulls on the steering wheel!  Not good thing to do! 

To be honest, I was never the same with her after that day.  But one thing that did happen is that I stopped pushing through the small signs - if you understand what I mean. Small signs?  Do you have an example or two? Please? I think that in the midst of my grief, I lived in a numb place that just allowed me to see how, bit by bit, the pieces did not add up because they had never added up.  I do have understanding about that.  In the beginning.. well, I am chalking that up to love bombing and other manipulations.   

My ex was my second wife, and while my parents were alive in the world, I just couldn't go to the place to make it understood (for a whole bunch of reasons that became clear in my thesis research) that she was abusive. I couldn't face a second failed marriage.

I have recently come to the same conclusion concerning wBPD.   There is a definite pattern of abusive behavior.  This is my 3rd marriage.  Currently I do not know if I ever will commit to a marriage again if this one ends.  I am not saying never. I'm saying not for a while.

But when the voice of my parents, my father in particular, where "gone" so to speak, it became easier to face the reality.

I had a convenient excuse to detach from her because I needed to get my parent's affairs in order. And that only caused her to escalate her anger. To say she lacked empathy in the wake of my parents' death is an understatement. 

Damnedest thing isn't it?  But we are supposed to have empathy for them.  All 4 of my parents are passed. Biological and adoptive. 

Finally, one day, when I discovered that she was messing with our finances again, and in my new, numb and detached state of mind, I confronted her with an ultimatum that we go for counselling. Calm and straight forward request, knowing full well that this would trigger a divorce. And so it did.

At least you had enough foresight to see where it could go.
 I'm assuming that you had already had things configured for that possibility?  I need to start taking steps on the financial side.

I'm not saying that relationships with people who suffer from mood disorders are not possible. I am saying though, that men have trouble identifying abuse and that if your relationship is abusive, get out.

Starting to consider getting out.  If nothing else, having things arranged to make that as easy as possible on me, will help me find myself. If that makes sense? 

Bottom line - to get clarity, I needed to "get sober" emotionally  Working on that  so I could find time to stop normalizing abusive behavior and behavior in her that frankly, I just didn't respect. Exactly! And it's like they don't have any respect for anyone.  At that time, I may have loved her still. But I really didn't like her very much.  right now, in this moment, I don't know if I still love her, and I admit that there is behaviors she does that I don't like.

I really didn't like who I had become and that, I needed to admit to myself was no fault of anyone but myself.  Same here.
 I allowed myself to become someone that hasn't been true to my inner self for quite some time.   When I got myself there, things became clear as day.  That is also what I am working on.  On top of FT work (which currently requires me to go to office which has been a saving grace, and school and, and, and.

The aftermath of that led me to these boards. I was a mess - lived with friends for six weeks to get myself together and move into a new place and start over.

I am thankful that I found these boards as well.   

Today, my career has never been better. I am engaged to a great woman. The shame of this being my 3rd wife has left - It is what it is, so why give up?

You are in a really great place!  Yeah, the acceptance of what is but without having expectations on it?  If that makes sense.

Hope this helps. When things become clear, you'll know what to do in your particular situation. There is no truth about yourself that will cause you to fail - only the fear the of it.

It has helped a great deal.  Thank you Rev.   Perhaps I am seeking clarity to soon?  Instead of allowing the emotional storms to blow themselves out while working on rebuilding myself to be more in alignment with my inner self. 

Reach out any time.  I will take you up on that. 

Hang in there.

Rev

Thank you again Rev.  You have given me some hope. Desperately needed at the moment.