Freedom strategy?

[15years]

We had been planning to go to a special beach today after work as it would be unusually hot outside today, but W had a bad headache yesterday and is feeling numb and weak today. I offered to come home one hour earlier from work to take S2 and S6 out for a walk so S2 could fall asleep.

I said it would be nice to go swimming though, maybe I can take the boys to a nearby beach and S2 can take a nap there. "Do what you want but go now" she said as she was a little stressed out about the kids being around her all day. I thought of an even better idea, to take the car and go to my parents house by the sea, S2 can sleep in the car while me and S6 goes swimming (that would have been a nice summer memory). I thought maybe she's in a good mood and will be fine with that idea, BUT I never got to present the idea before she told me "I don't want you to do anything else than just take a walk". I asked her why and she just told me that's what she wants. I noticed this could easily turn into a rage so I told her OK we'll do that then... it's not a catastrophe, we still got to go outside which isn't always easy either.

It isn't about the time we're going to be gone because she knew we would stay out and play for a while when S2 falls asleep. It's probably about her not being part of the plan, abandoned. Also, it would have gone from me doing her a favor to me enjoying myself.

This whole summer we haven't gone to the beach even once, not even during a two week heat wave in June, because of her various health issues, she doesn't feel comfortable at the beach if she feels like her body is "swollen". I haven't suggested taking the boys to the beach myself before today, I knew it would be a touchy subject. At least now I know I didn't just imagine that.



Got me thinking, would living like I was free be a good strategy to quicker come to a decision about the future of this relationship? Has anyone tried that? Problem is she would blame me for not giving a sh** about her and I would probably loose my sense of reality and feel like I'm doing fun things just to provoke her.

[livednlearned]

The tricky thing about freedom in your situation is that she is violent.

For pwBPD, changes in partner behaviors are often met with resistance because these changes signal loss of control, which can feel frightening.

There is often an extinction burst in response, an oversized correction to test whether the change can be reset to what it was before, back under control. Many of us find we cannot make it through the extinction burst unless there is an awareness and often a plan for how to survive it.

Any freedom strategy should involve a safety plan so you have a response to any escalation on her part.

[PeteWitsend]

...
Got me thinking, would living like I was free be a good strategy to quicker come to a decision about the future of this relationship? Has anyone tried that? ...

I think that's the dilemma most of us here have faced and tried.  

And to me, it comes down to whether or not the reaction it provokes is tolerable, or not within the confines of the relationship.  "Tolerable" meaning you may not be happy with it, but you don't feel any reason to leave or even seek help over it.

Like @livednlearned pointed out, you've been on the receiving end of physical abuse before, so you're already in the ballpark of how bad it can get.  (EDIT: I suppose ballpark isn't the right word to use for a non-American.  On the pitch, maybe?)

What if when she said "that's just what I want" when you questioned why you couldn't take the kids to the beach, you told her you needed an actual reason, and since she didn't have one, you were going to do it?  

If she'd attack you physically, then yeah, you need to have a safety plan in place when you try this.  

[Manic Miner]

I'm currently living free/separated from W.

I can share my experience. It annoys her. Since she left by her own will, she thought I'd beg her to come back. That didn't happen and her frustration started.
Wherever she asked how I feel and am doing, if I said fine, good or anything positive, it triggered her frustration and abandoning fears.

Even by saying D and I are doing great together, she feels triggered and started spending more time with her and staying less with me. There are all kinds of insecurities at place. So I ended up saying I'm alright, managing somehow, trying to get myself together, etc. That greatly lessens this and makes her more cooperative.

Whatever you do, Do Not say you are doing good without her, even if you are finally feeling some peace.

[ForeverDad]

I can imagine her having an extinction burst if you did go to the beach.  "You left him sleeping in the car!"  Doesn't matter if it wasn't that hot of a day and all the windows were down and you were 5 feet away with one eye on the child.  She would claim you were not responsible, endangered "her" child, perhaps even file allegations.

If you do anything like that, try to travel with another family, trusted relatives or in a group so there are multiple witnesses to attest to your adequate parenting.

[Notwendy]

Yes, the mention of leaving the 2 year old sleeping in the car got me concerned.

Why would she have responded to you like this?

I don't know, but it seems with my BPD mother the underlying reason is emotional. Emotions aren't rational, which is why the request doesn't seem to make sense and a rational discussion doesn't seem to help. Also when making a request the emotional need isn't expressed, which is confusing.

In your rational thinking, you are wondering what difference does it make what you do with the kids because the request was to let her nap. She's going to get to nap whether you go swimming or walking.

But emotionally she has a need that was not expressed and somehow this makes a difference to her. Maybe it's mentioning your parents' house but since mind reading is not possible, it's a guess at best.

This is an example of me taking a request at face value and the hidden emotional need I had no idea about.

My children are teens at this point and we are visiting my parents. BPD mother asks me where her "grandchild"  is because she wants grandchild to take out the trash for her. Grandchild is busy so I offer to take the trash out. She replies she wants grandchild to do it. I go ahead and take out the trash, assuming the main reason for the request is to have the trash taken out.

BPD mother runs out of the house after me, furious at me for how I placed the trash can on the curb, makes me move it 3 inches over. I know the can is in the right place regardless and the 3 inches makes no difference to how it is collected but do what she asks.

Then, she would not allow me to put any trash in the trash bin after that.

What is going on here? The request  was to get the trash taken out. Yes, but there's an unspoken emotional need there as well. She has a need to be taken care of, and was enlisting grandkid as her emotional caretaker. I was tuned into that and so interfered with this because protecting my kids from this is a boundary for me. In a way, we both were communicating emotionally but not saying it. The hidden conversation might have been this:

BPD mother " I need grandchild to do things for me, as it makes me feel good"

Me: "This is not grandchild's responsibility"

BPD mother " Now, you have stopped me from getting my need met"


Not having her emotional need met, and seeing the boundary, upset her. This increased her need for control. The behavior over where the trash cans were and not allowing me to put trash in them appeared irrational but it was in response to the interference.

Somehow in the conversation with your wife, there was an unspoken agenda for both of you.

[Notwendy]

double posted- error

[livednlearned]

the underlying reason is emotional. Emotions aren't rational, which is why the request doesn't seem to make sense and a rational discussion doesn't seem to help. Also when making a request the emotional need isn't expressed, which is confusing.

This helped me understand something eluding me in my own pwBPD relationship. I wasn't quite connecting the dots. Thank you!

I notice you move ahead with your value/boundary and appease her only because it doesn't violate what you believe in. So, moving the trash can a few inches, while similar to appeasing, isn't violating your own boundary. That has been tricky for me in the past (as in becoming too rigid for fear of sliding down the slippery slope).

15years, with NotWendy's example, I can see how you might have to first identify your values (e.g. I will not be hit) so that you can tackle boundaries, like "I will allow the kids to individuate through safe activities with me."

Meaning, your freedom strategy will probably succeed when you are clear about how to handle her violence so that you can navigate this from a place of values.

Otherwise, I could see how it turns into a power dynamic over how many inches too far away you placed the trash can and whether you can ever take out the trash again.

[Manic Miner]

NotWendy, your reading between the lines and support are beyond anything I have learned on any T session.

This is tremendously important:

In your rational thinking, you are wondering what difference does it make what you do with the kids because the request was to let her nap. She's going to get to nap whether you go swimming or walking.
But emotionally she has a need that was not expressed and somehow this makes a difference to her.

As far as I'm concerned and probably for many others, this can be applied to almost any "big" problem and issue dealing with a BPD person. This can happen even to healthy individuals, but they can rationalize, think further and move on. Unlike BPDs that seem forever stuck.
There's a huge gap between rational and emotional thinking for pwBPD, even when they themselves tell you what they think they want. And this makes things complicated even more.

I have experienced it so much, pulling my hair out, thinking what did I do, we got an agreement etc... Rationally, it was all good. But it was the emotional need that was unmet, unsatisfied or even crushed by something subtle, small or invisible.

[15years]

Hi all!

Interesting replies to this post. In this particular case, W really identifies herself very much as a beach lover, or no, a person who loves to go swimming actually. The rest of the family making the beach premiere of the summer without her would have made her feel insignificant somehow, even ridiculed maybe. That in turn triggered her feelings of being insignificant if we do anything fun without her. And also adding to this the fact that the plan was for me to do her a favor in the first place, and now that has turned into me doing something for myself which she would love to do.

We actually went to the beach yesterday and it was really nice so all is fine with that.

About the freedom strategy idea. I get the point that I need to be clear on my values. Just going along with my plans in anger would easily fail as the anger fades and my bad conscience grows, or if there's violence and I don't have a strategy for that. However I thought about this, the problem with doing what she wants without a fight is that nobody will remember that there was ever a problem. She didn't get angry, there wasn't a big scene, there was a small sense of disappointment in me and S6 maybe who overheard some part of it and picked up the word "beach", but it will soon be totally forgotten. W will never understand that she did anything wrong, instead she will feel that she was being assertive. She expressed her feelings and compromises were made (not really of course), she probably feels that we were successfully communicating. And I can't blame her because I gave in without a fight. Saying she controls me would feel silly and like seeing myself as a victim. That's why I think acting as if I was free (the freedom strategy) would serve a purpose by shedding light on the dysfunction - thoughts on that?




Ps.
I understand that "an unusually hot day" and "S2 sleeping in the car" sounds alarming I would probably have noticed if it was too hot to sleep in the car. But if I'm parking in the shade with all doors open, am I still missing a safety concern here?

[Notwendy]

If you are in the car, no.

I think a lot of us parents will drive around in the car with a sleeping toddler if the toddler falls asleep so they can get in a nap because they are really cranky if we don't and it's not too hot in the car.

Leaving a sleeping toddler in a car could be dangerous. Now if it's not hot and you are right near the car, and can see them, maybe for a few minutes if you are keeping an eye on them. Something like standing next to the car and chatting with a neighbor for a few minutes. If you can not see the toddler and keep an eye on them, then no, because if something happens you won't be able to know it. They might wake up, try to crawl out, get stuck in the strap, feel sick. The only safe place for a toddler to sleep out of your view is a crib.

Each summer there are unspeakably tragic stories of toddlers left in cars. These are often good parents who are not neglectful. We tend to go on "automatic" with our daily routines and the parents have been preoccupied and just forget about the toddler. If you are playing with the 4 year old, all your attention is on him. The advice to never leave a toddler in a car seat in the car is important as there are many potential dangers.

Thanks Manic Miner, I am glad the post helps. It has helped me to understand that some reasons don't make logical sense so putting them in emotional context helps.

the problem with doing what she wants without a fight is that nobody will remember that there was ever a problem


Meaning, you remember but she doesn't. It may not be possible to get her to realize there is a problem with her way of thinking regardless- because to her, it isn't a problem and your "fighting" it doesn't change that. It just escalates to the point of abuse.

I also agree that giving in in anger is being co-dependent and doesn't help either.

It's a hard balance but if you choose to stay with her, you can't be in constant conflict and neither do you want to be constantly appeasing either. It may just come down to picking your battles. Which issues you want to defend and which don't matter. Something like wanting to be at the beach first as a family, well unless it's a big deal to you to defend, you might let that slide, but defend others.

[15years]

Each summer there are unspeakably tragic stories of toddlers left in cars. These are often good parents who are not neglectful. We tend to go on "automatic" with our daily routines and the parents have been preoccupied and just forget about the toddler. If you are playing with the 4  (edit 6) year old, all your attention is on him. The advice to never leave a toddler in a car seat in the car is important as there are many potential dangers.

You're right that when it comes to safety, we can't rely too much on our attention and performance day-to-day. We need to make sure that the system is safe and well-functioning. I guess this logic really fits the idea of personal boundaries too.

[Notwendy]

Yes, a better plan could be to let the toddler nap at your parents' house. Hopefully they have a childproof room for him to stay in. Then you can do something with the 6 year old.

Boundaries are there to keep us safe and also emotionally safe.

[15years]

Yesterday was a step backwards in this specific issue...

We were planning a family bike ride and me and the boys were preparing the bikes. W was inside getting ready, but after one hour she texted me "I'm sorry, I've tried but I can't go out for a bike ride today.". I tried to communicate that it was OK and that me and S6 can go instead. Well of course that wasn't fine for her. I had about 10 minutes to think through what to do and I did really bad. I really didn't communicate well and said hurtful (but honest) things due to my suppressed r/s emotions. I wish I had handled it better. Somehow she brought up the beach thing too. She said it was disrespectful of me to suggest going to the beach without her. Now she says I'm not allowed to go to the beach without her, because she doesn't have confidence in me, meaning she is afraid of me looking at other women (I have previously confessed to occasionally looking at other women, stupid I know but that was when I was deep in FOG). Also she added that I shouldn't go to the swimming hall without her either. I have been going there because it helps my back pains. If I tell her she can't control me like that, she says "I'm not your mother", meaning she thinks I act like a child who's testing her limits. In her view, I as the loving husband would consider my wife's feelings always and if she's not comfortable with me doing something, I shouldn't even want to do them, because her feelings are more important. She thinks I'm really childish and demands that this "I'll do it anyway"-attitude stops immediately. She says she would never do that to me which is true and this confuses me a bit. I told her I would want her to do things although I can't participate.

So this has gone from me thinking about pushing the limits of my freedom to actually narrowing it. I know this should be about my boundaries and not about what she allows, but the reactions are so manipulative I now feel that if I go against her wishes it's me that are starting fights by provoking her. And going to the beach by myself is out of the question now, it's infidelity level betrayal if I do. This is the reason I do more and more things in secret.



A detail about yesterdays fight, I told her in pure anger "you have shrunk my life into a little butter box". She didn't understand this at all and she wondered later what I meant. She thought I meant that her way of life is boring, that she doesn't have many friends and doesn't travel a lot and that I feel trapped living with someone like that. She thought that was hurtful because she has told me 'in confidence' that she doesn't need much, the small stuff is enough for her. I have told her I'd love to be more adventurous. So that's what she thought I meant. No thought of allowing me to be more adventurous on my own though.

[Notwendy]

"you have shrunk my life into a little butter box".

It's not about whether she understands what you mean or not, but you do.

Not allowed to go to the beach without her because you might look?

Of course you will look. We all look. It's hard to not notice a pretty woman in a bikini or a good looking man walking down the beach. Now if you are staring at them or chatting them up, that's different.

Back to the original issue. I did say that not allowing you to go to the beach didn't make logical sense and now, the emotional reason is the same one as usual. There is something about her not being your one and only that she can not let go of.

It might not even be due to the incident before her as her fears of you being with someone else attaching to that, but you can't change that. You have carried the blame for doing something before you met her as being the cause. Maybe, but maybe she'd have this fear regardless and it has been projected on that.

Her feelings can be projected on any reason:

You confessed to looking at an attractive person. ( everyone notices attractive people )
You now can't go anywhere where people are in swim suits.
You can't watch certain movies (maybe the actresses are attractive in them)

How much of this are you willing to accommodate?

[15years]

How much of this are you willing to accommodate?

Yeah I know, not at all really and it makes me feel sick to be around her due to all my emotions, so naturally it's emotionally impossible to please her in the long run. I don't even want to look her in the eyes and she's asking me to give up more freedom for her. My way around this is to lie, if I don't start to argue why I think I should be allowed to 'do it anyway'. I think the most accurate way to describe it would be that it's confusing and uncomfortable to disappoint her. And maybe I haven't given up on the hope that she will accept me yet.

It's the balance that's off. Of course it would be wrong to do exactly like I please when I'm in a relationship and have a family to care for. I think pwbpd lack this sense of balance.

 
I agree that most stuff has something to do with the sexual issues. But it might be projection, it's easier for her to use my guilt to control me. Now the bike ride, in what way could she possibly connect that to sex? Well, she came up with the "I'll do what I want"-theory. So it's the sense of betrayal that is the connection, and with that theory she can see me as a villain for anything that goes against her script.

[ForeverDad]

15years, what you're facing is entirely and utterly outrageous.  Yet I was there once.  When I was mired in the thick of it, trying to make a dysfunctional relationship work, I saw no way out.  It didn't improve until something changed.  That is, my marriage failed.  She didn't change so I had to change my circumstances.

I used to nearly stutter around my ex, she had me so terrified of triggering her that I weighed out each word and phrase.  And still she got triggered anyway.

I recall too that she criticized me endlessly that I was looking at other women.  I used to joke that if I stopped at a traffic light that I couldn't watch the grandmother crossing the street.  Sounds like I'm joking but it wasn't that far off.  I used to walk down the aisles at work and would avert my eyes down if women were in my path.  And she wasn't even there!  Yes, I was a bit of a basket case back then.

[livednlearned]

I think your instinct to initiate a "freedom strategy" is a healthy one. You want to live a normal life. You want to be able to gently object to nonsense and redirect to something healthier.

Right now, you are all living in her distorted reality. You are living downstream of her feelings, and her feelings are projected onto and in conflict with reality. She is attempting to control not just your actions but your thoughts and feelings.

Maybe freedom + safety strategy is the best way to proceed.

[ForeverDad]

My prior post, that I would tell a story that I'd be accused if I saw a grandmother in the cross walk, worried me a bit, was it only a story or an actual memory?  I located some more of my prior posts:

Dec 20, 2009 9:32:18 AM (also September 12, 2016, 08:36:41 AM & September 06, 2020, 05:19:05 PM)
I have been accused of having numerous affairs over the years.  Me too, it was so humiliating and demeaning. I mean, where was the trust? Sometimes I wondered if it was projection, that it was her trying to shift the blame for her actions or feelings as though it were me doing it.  Anyway, it was so bad near the end of our years together that I couldn't even look women in the eye.  I had to look away.  Even if I was at a traffic light and women were crossing the street I had to avert my eyes so I could not be accused of watching them bounce.  My speaking too was adversely affected.  I weighed every word I spoke to her, trying to avoid triggering an overreaction, impossible, I know, but I ended up being almost a stutterer.

When I wrote bounce I'm sure I was alluding to my ex criticizing other women's breasts, and moreso that I dared to look.  And now I'm pretty sure it was a memory.

[GaGrl]

My husband's ex-wife is uBPD/NPD. They separated in the 1990s, and we married in 2006. Now that she lives 1000+ miles away, we have no contact except an occasional call with H regarding the granddaughters or adult children. But, we hear things from the children (sigh).

As Ex has aged, her paranoia and fixation on her SO has gotten worse and worse. They have been together 20 years. We don't know where it comes from. She showed jealousy during the first marriage, but none of the behaviors that are so irrational.

Ex believes that her SO sees girlfriends and prostitutes. She has nailed all windows shut in the house and installed interior and exterior cameras. When they go to bed, she locks the door from the inside and wears the key around her neck. She believes he leaves the house in the middle of the night to meet these women.

My stepdaughter is on a family visit with her in Thailand. SD woke in the middle of the night because all the lights were on in their house in the family compound. Ex was going through all their suitcases and repacking each item. When asked, Ex said the her SO had stolen money from her to buy a ticket for his prostitute girlfriend to meet him in Thailand, and he had a secret phone he was using to talk to her, and she was looking for the phone. SD said she just shook her head and went back to bed.

This has been going on for 8-10 years, we think. She called H once in a fury, with her gun in her hand threatening to shoot SO -- H talked her down (he is a saint). She has been arrested for this before with previous boyfriends, so it's not an empty threat. Once she threatened and did not shoot, once she discharged the gun.

SO has ridiculously high blood pressure but feels he has no option except to stay.

How does the family view this? Everyone has expressed to SO that they understand the severity of the situation. He has told her once that if she didn't see a psychiatrist, he would leave -- she made an appointment, then cancelled it; he did not leave. He is unwilling to call 911 when she rages. He will not consult a DV group. Every support method presented to him has been rejected.

It is difficult to be on the outside, but it is more difficult to be on the inside with no view of how to get out. Our family is in a position of not knowing what will come first -- SO having a stroke or heart attack, Ex being arrested or being detained in a psychiatric facility, or...SO figuring out a safety and exit plan. I believe SO will get there. I believe you will get there.

[Notwendy]

I think there's a line between what is human nature- to notice- and what is staring and ogling at someone. To me, this kind of behavior on her part reflects distorted thinking and is unreasonably controlling. What I think is happening here is some hope of changing how she thinks, but we can't change how anyone thinks. Just because she thinks it doesn't make it true.

I think the tools on this board, in addition to working on co-dependency can make a difference in our part of the dynamics. If that brings the situation to a workable relationship- great, but also each person decides what is tolerable to them. At some point, I think the decision is- do you tolerate this kind of controlling behavior ( and the physical violence ) or not?

And if you do, and decide to stay, also consider how this impacts your two boys. They will grow into men one day. One day they might notice a pretty girl- which will be entirely normal for an adolescent boy but someone with BPD might see this as a threat. I fear they will be shamed for any signs of normal pubertal development. How is this going to effect their self image, their own ideas of sexuality, and their future relationships?

[15years]

15years, what you're facing is entirely and utterly outrageous.  Yet I was there once.  When I was mired in the thick of it, trying to make a dysfunctional relationship work, I saw no way out.  It didn't improve until something changed.  That is, my marriage failed.  She didn't change so I had to change my circumstances.

Thank you for sharing. It's a journey... Changing the circumstances by ending the marriage was the best way for you. Maybe it is for me too.

Right now, you are all living in her distorted reality. You are living downstream of her feelings, and her feelings are projected onto and in conflict with reality. She is attempting to control not just your actions but your thoughts and feelings.

Maybe freedom + safety strategy is the best way to proceed.

This is such a good summary of my situation. I'm struggling to come to terms with the safety strategy. Often I don't feel the motivation to leave the apartment. Sometimes I do have the motivation and then it's easy. This means there's no consistency. I've been thinking about what Cat Familiar wrote somewhere on the board, that it takes a minimum of 30 min for the amygdala to calm down. So do I leave the apartment for 30 minutes? Send her a text message to inform her about that? If the kids are present, do I tell them the same; "I'll be out for a short while"? Taking them with me would be a challenge physically speaking and trying to do that would escalate the situation further. S2 don't understand but maybe he would understand the words "out" and "I'll be back soon". What if she's aggressive, I have read that you shouldn't go near your kids, because they easily get in the middle of it. In case they aren't close by, do I just shout from the door; "I'm going out, I'll be back soon" or something like that?

It is difficult to be on the outside, but it is more difficult to be on the inside with no view of how to get out. Our family is in a position of not knowing what will come first -- SO having a stroke or heart attack, Ex being arrested or being detained in a psychiatric facility, or...SO figuring out a safety and exit plan. I believe SO will get there. I believe you will get there.

Thank you for sharing this, I didn't know you were that involved in worrying about your SDs stepdad. Sounds like you care about him a lot. And thanks for the warm words at the very end. Today I'm feeling a bit low and lack hope. Yet I'm aware of how far I've come from last years bottomless anxiety.

And if you do, and decide to stay, also consider how this impacts your two boys. They will grow into men one day. One day they might notice a pretty girl- which will be entirely normal for an adolescent boy but someone with BPD might see this as a threat. I fear they will be shamed for any signs of normal pubertal development. How is this going to effect their self image, their own ideas of sexuality, and their future relationships?

I'm getting more and more concerned about this. I suspect they will learn to hide things from her. I don't think there will be one specific situation when they suddenly get shamed for something. I think it will dawn on them slowly and by puberty they'll be aware what is considered "good" and "bad". I don't think sexuality comes with puberty, it's there from the the start. Maybe there's less innocence after puberty. Maybe sexuality can get partly stuck in a early "innocent" stage.

[GaGrl]

We do care for Ex's SO -- he's a good man, as is my H, and our children and grandchildren love SO and hate to see the abuse heaped on him. Ex has an unerring sense of which men will be caretakers -- it's uncanny.

Part of our concern is that, should SO leave her or have a serious health crisis, Ex is not capable of handling Life  by herself. She will devolve and fall apart. She is even afraid to drive on the interstate.

Is part of your current state of mind the fear that your wife will fall apart and not function?

[livednlearned]

I've been thinking about what Cat Familiar wrote somewhere on the board, that it takes a minimum of 30 min for the amygdala to calm down. So do I leave the apartment for 30 minutes? Send her a text message to inform her about that?

Are you two having any interactions or stretches of time in which it would be safe to say this to her?

"I read about the amygdala and how it takes a minimum of 30 min to calm down once it's activated -- like during an argument. I will be a better listener, a better partner to you if I take a time out when I feel flooded. I'm going to let you know when it's happening and I'll text you to let you know how long I need to pull myself together."

Something like that?

It's a strategy sometimes recommended here but I'm not sure how well it works with someone as violent as your wife. It's hard to tell without knowing you both whether it's best to keep your strategies to yourself or not and just do them without discussion.