Kind of an urgent help needed, is this appropriate to tell to a suicidal person?

[Bella2798]

I'm sorry to ask for this here. I don't have access to therapy so here is one of my main support places.

My partner said that he had a sweet conversation with his flatmate. And this the thing that they've said to my partner:
"If being suicidal is your normal everyday state of mind, I don't want you to suffer and feel trapped. And although it's hard for me, I want to be with you in it because I don't want you to be alone with it. So I want to be with you when you get prepared for death, because I know it's a relief for you but it's too hard for me so this helps me."

My partner said he always wished I said such things to him and he doesn't know why his death is a taboo to me.

I don't know if this is kind of a proper support from his flatmate so they can watch him and reduce the risk of suicide, or it's just a sick toxic thing. Maybe I'm over reacting and too scared.

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[SaltyDawg]

What he is describing is euthanasia. Euthanasia is currently not legal in Germany, however, it is legal in the Netherlands which shares a border with Germany and a few other nearby countries.

Having German ancestry I do know that euthanasia is more readilly accepted than most other parts of the world.

Does your partner have a terminal illness? If the answer is yes, it is not frowned upon to commit suicide with medical assistance.  However, he must have his doctor's approval for it as the law reads in part:

In all cases, the patient must have "unbearable suffering with no prospect of improvement" and must have requested to die in a way that is "voluntary, well considered and with full conviction".

Other criteria apply as well, like the absence of a reasonable alternative to the patient's situation.

That said, however, if he does NOT have his doctor's approval, then you may want to see if you can locate more help for him to talk to.

Also, encourage him to talk to his doctor, and a mental health worker if available, I know the waiting lists in Germany are months to talk to one, one of the issues with public health.

My partner said that he had a sweet conversation with his flatmate. And this the thing that they've said to my partner:
"If being suicidal is your normal everyday state of mind, I don't want you to suffer and feel trapped. And although it's hard for me, I want to be with you in it because I don't want you to be alone with it. So I want to be with you when you get prepared for death, because I know it's a relief for you but it's too hard for me so this helps me."

My partner said he always wished I said such things to him and he doesn't know why his death is a taboo to me.

I don't know if this is kind of a proper support from his flatmate so they can watch him and reduce the risk of suicide, or it's just a sick toxic thing. Maybe I'm over reacting and too scared.

[Bella2798]

What he is describing is euthanasia. Euthanasia is currently not legal in Germany, however, it is legal in the Netherlands which shares a border with Germany and a few other nearby countries.

Having German ancestry I do know that euthanasia is more readilly accepted than most other parts of the world.

Does your partner have a terminal illness? If the answer is yes, it is not frowned upon to commit suicide with medical assistance.  However, he must have his doctor's approval for it as the law reads in part:

That said, however, if he does NOT have his doctor's approval, then you may want to see if you can locate more help for him to talk to.

Also, encourage him to talk to his doctor, and a mental health worker if available, I know the waiting lists in Germany are months to talk to one, one of the issues with public health.

Thank you for your answer. He is not talking about euthanasia actually. He is really talking about commiting suicide, by some approaches he has found on the internet. He doesn't have a terminal illness, although he has some chronic health problems and I know it's so difficult for him to deal with.

Also he said he doesn't change his plan, and he is not going to do it now, but in some months.
I've talked to him before and although there was a time when he accepted to get help, he didn't accept my offer this time and he is convinced that the only way for him is to die. However, he has an appointment with a psychiatrist in April (I thought it was in the end of February but it was not) and there can probably be some options of therapy from his university. I'm so worried that this flatmate actually encourages him to commit suicide.

[SaltyDawg]

That's good, it will be some months away. 

Encourage him to talk to the psychiatrist in April on this.

Also talk about positive memories that you share together, avoid the negative ones if possible, unless he is focused on them, and then find the nicer things of that.

Make him feel wanted and loved.

I don't know where to start, but do a search on Google for resources for him to cope. 

https://www.coda-deutschland.de/ find a meeting near him, and contact them, they might be able to help.

[Notwendy]

IMHO, that is a very disturbing thing for a friend to say to a person in this state of mind- to encourage someone to do that?

While I think it is very inappropriate and also dangerous to say something like that, it's also possible that the flat mate is so fed up with your partner's expressing these feelings it may be that he's thinking that witnessing your partner's  misery is too difficult. Or he's being sarcastic. But in no way is it OK to say something like that to a person in your partner's mental state. Who in their right mind would encourage someone to do something like that? His flat mate may be disordered too.

When someone has this level of depression, it's a need for mental health. If he seems intent about doing this, call 911 ( or whatever number is used in your country) and get him hospitalized for evaluation.

[Bella2798]

That's good, it will be some months away. 

Encourage him to talk to the psychiatrist in April on this.

Also talk about positive memories that you share together, avoid the negative ones if possible, unless he is focused on them, and then find the nicer things of that.

Make him feel wanted and loved.

I don't know where to start, but do a search on Google for resources for him to cope. 

https://www.coda-deutschland.de/ find a meeting near him, and contact them, they might be able to help.

I try to show him how much I love him and I know he feels so lonely but it seems there's a blockage in the way that doesn't let him feel the love I'm sending. And he also feels like I don't know him after all these years. I have to work on it.

Thanks for the support and suggestions!

[Bella2798]

IMHO, that is a very disturbing thing for a friend to say to a person in this state of mind- to encourage someone to do that?

While I think it is very inappropriate and also dangerous to say something like that, it's also possible that the flat mate is so fed up with your partner's expressing these feelings it may be that he's thinking that witnessing your partner's  misery is too difficult. Or he's being sarcastic. But in no way is it OK to say something like that to a person in your partner's mental state. Who in their right mind would encourage someone to do something like that? His flat mate may be disordered too.

When someone has this level of depression, it's a need for mental health. If he seems intent about doing this, call 911 ( or whatever number is used in your country) and get him hospitalized for evaluation.

I actually thought maybe that's a way to make the person less suicidal but deep down I was exactly thinking that who on the earth says such a toxic thing to a suicidal person and thinks it's actually a healthy thing to say?
Thanks for the help. My mind is more clear now.

[SaltyDawg]

Bella,

   I agree with not wendy on the negative suggestions of the flat mate(s). 

   Is there any way you can visit him in person?  I suspect you need a Schengen visa.

   Take care.

SD

[Bella2798]

Bella,

   I agree with not wendy on the negative suggestions of the flat mate(s). 

   Is there any way you can visit him in person?  I suspect you need a Schengen visa.

   Take care.

SD

Dear SaltyDawg, you're right, I need a Schengen visa for that and that requires some amount of time and it can't be done easily, because of my nationality, unfortunately.

If I could see him many things would have changed, I've seen the impact on him before, and also I think maybe he even has to change his flat. He wanted to do that many times in the past but didn't due to some reasons. Maybe I suggest him changing his living place when he feels better because it seems he's in a lot of pain and stress now and is too impulsive.

[SaltyDawg]

When talking to him, be positive, let him know you are there for him, let him know that you love him.  Talk to light topics that you know he likes, and slowly move to more serious topics as it sounds like he is in a 'dark' place right now. 

I know the distance and language barriers are very frustrating to say the least.

I understand about your ethnic background and the geographic restrictions that you have - until those are sorted out, please, do look for local resources to him, I would start with the CODA link that I mentioned in a previous post, reach out to the volunteers there who are local to him, and see what resources are available to you and him in this scenario.  If they cannot help you specifically, they should have a list of resources that might be able to help, ask.

If they only speak German, use google translate to communicate.  I usually do triple translation so nothing is lost in translation.  English --> German, German --> English to verify that meanings haven't changed, and then English --> German again, and send after making necessary revisions to my message and repeat that process.

You need to think outside of the box for a solution in your scenario.  I wish you the best of success in moving forward.

Take care of yourself with self-care, and take care of him too.

[Bella2798]

When talking to him, be positive, let him know you are there for him, let him know that you love him.  Talk to light topics that you know he likes, and slowly move to more serious topics as it sounds like he is in a 'dark' place right now. 

I know the distance and language barriers are very frustrating to say the least.

I understand about your ethnic background and the geographic restrictions that you have - until those are sorted out, please, do look for local resources to him, I would start with the CODA link that I mentioned in a previous post, reach out to the volunteers there who are local to him, and see what resources are available to you and him in this scenario.  If they cannot help you specifically, they should have a list of resources that might be able to help, ask.

If they only speak German, use google translate to communicate.  I usually do triple translation so nothing is lost in translation.  English --> German, German --> English to verify that meanings haven't changed, and then English --> German again, and send after making necessary revisions to my message and repeat that process.

You need to think outside of the box for a solution in your scenario.  I wish you the best of success in moving forward.

Take care of yourself with self-care, and take care of him too.

Actually I have found some places that we can get help, and also even one of his flatmates contacted some psychiatric and therapy clinic near them and they said he can visit there with a referral from his GP, which is possible to receive, but this is up to him. His university has a support system too and other students there told me they would help if I contact them personally. I'm going to contact CODA today.
You are right, I have to think outside of the box, although it is a bit hard for me but I have to try my best, for him and for me.
Thanks for all the help and advice you give me.

[stolencrumbs]

Hey Bella,
I won't comment on the appropriateness of the comment, but a couple of things jumped out at me. I am no expert on any of this, but my ex was chronically suicidal, so it is something I dealt with over many, many years.

One thing that strikes me is that it seems to be his everyday, "normal" state of mind. This is how my ex was. She thought about suicide a lot, made preparations a number of times, and tried it a few times. By her own account, suicide is something she thinks about on an almost daily basis, and has for a whole lot of her life. Someone who is chronically suicidal is in a bit of a different situation than someone who is acutely suicidal, where they just need to get past some major stressor or problem or critical moment. If it is his normal state, the thoughts probably aren't going to go away unless he gets long-term treatment for BPD. Those suicidal thoughts are part of the disorder.

Related to that, a frustration my ex had was that she felt like she couldn't talk to me about this because when she did, I (understandably, I think) kind of freaked out that she was casually talking to me about her thoughts and plans for killing herself. It is shocking to hear, and my inclination was always to immediately think "this isn't okay, you need help, we need help, I don't know what to do, omg, you want to kill yourself, etc." Again, I think this is a normal reaction, but the consequence of it is that she rarely said anything about it to me. Because she knew talking about it was "taboo", and she knew I wouldn't really listen to anything once she said she wanted to kill herself. It was a fairly prominent feature of my ex's internal life that she felt like she wasn't allowed to say anything about. I suspect this is part of what your partner means when he says he wishes you would say these things and that he wishes his death wasn't taboo.

The other thing that struck me is the idea that it is a relief. I don't know exactly what the flatmate was talking about, but for my ex, and from I can tell from other research, pwBPD often use suicidal thoughts and plans as a coping mechanism. (They also use it for attention and to manipulate, but my ex also definitely used it to cope.) It's like an extreme version of an agoraphobic standing near the door in a crowded room. They may not leave, they might stick it out, but they want to know that there's a way to get out if they need to. For my ex, having a suicide plan was her way to get out. It helped her cope with whatever was going on in her mind to feel like she had some exit plan if it all got too bad. So there's a sense in which the thinking and planning and preparing is a way of getting some relief from the suffering pwBPD experience. And at least for my ex, getting freaked out and trying to address the suicidality also, in her mind, meant trying to take away one of her coping mechanisms. 

I don't have great advice on what to do or how to handle it. It's really tough and I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I hope he will seek help and stick with it. 

 

[Bella2798]

Hey Bella,
I won't comment on the appropriateness of the comment, but a couple of things jumped out at me. I am no expert on any of this, but my ex was chronically suicidal, so it is something I dealt with over many, many years.

One thing that strikes me is that it seems to be his everyday, "normal" state of mind. This is how my ex was. She thought about suicide a lot, made preparations a number of times, and tried it a few times. By her own account, suicide is something she thinks about on an almost daily basis, and has for a whole lot of her life. Someone who is chronically suicidal is in a bit of a different situation than someone who is acutely suicidal, where they just need to get past some major stressor or problem or critical moment. If it is his normal state, the thoughts probably aren't going to go away unless he gets long-term treatment for BPD. Those suicidal thoughts are part of the disorder.

Related to that, a frustration my ex had was that she felt like she couldn't talk to me about this because when she did, I (understandably, I think) kind of freaked out that she was casually talking to me about her thoughts and plans for killing herself. It is shocking to hear, and my inclination was always to immediately think "this isn't okay, you need help, we need help, I don't know what to do, omg, you want to kill yourself, etc." Again, I think this is a normal reaction, but the consequence of it is that she rarely said anything about it to me. Because she knew talking about it was "taboo", and she knew I wouldn't really listen to anything once she said she wanted to kill herself. It was a fairly prominent feature of my ex's internal life that she felt like she wasn't allowed to say anything about. I suspect this is part of what your partner means when he says he wishes you would say these things and that he wishes his death wasn't taboo.

The other thing that struck me is the idea that it is a relief. I don't know exactly what the flatmate was talking about, but for my ex, and from I can tell from other research, pwBPD often use suicidal thoughts and plans as a coping mechanism. (They also use it for attention and to manipulate, but my ex also definitely used it to cope.) It's like an extreme version of an agoraphobic standing near the door in a crowded room. They may not leave, they might stick it out, but they want to know that there's a way to get out if they need to. For my ex, having a suicide plan was her way to get out. It helped her cope with whatever was going on in her mind to feel like she had some exit plan if it all got too bad. So there's a sense in which the thinking and planning and preparing is a way of getting some relief from the suffering pwBPD experience. And at least for my ex, getting freaked out and trying to address the suicidality also, in her mind, meant trying to take away one of her coping mechanisms. 

I don't have great advice on what to do or how to handle it. It's really tough and I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I hope he will seek help and stick with it. 

 

You have no idea how much you've helped me. I can exactly see that he sees death as an option that brings him relief and it helps him cope with what is happening. He even said he wanted to show me the rope he had managed to use but he didn't so I wouldn't be hurt, and when I asked him to throw away it, he said he can't do it now and he doesn't want to talk about it. The thought came into my mind that this helps him cope with the pain, even though it's a very dangerous way.

My mind and thoughts are now much more clear on this matter, thank you, again!

[stolencrumbs]

You have no idea how much you've helped me. I can exactly see that he sees death as an option that brings him relief and it helps him cope with what is happening. He even said he wanted to show me the rope he had managed to use but he didn't so I wouldn't be hurt, and when I asked him to throw away it, he said he can't do it now and he doesn't want to talk about it. The thought came into my mind that this helps him cope with the pain, even though it's a very dangerous way.

My mind and thoughts are now much more clear on this matter, thank you, again!

Yes, it's definitely dangerous. Probably worth emphasizing that (again, at least in my ex's case) it was not just about coping. There were also aspects of attention-seeking and manipulation. I don't know if that's true of your partner, but talking about the particulars of how he might do it and offering to show you the rope is similar to stuff my ex did.

I don't know what I thought at the time it was happening, but I have come to see that kind of behavior--she would leave ropes hanging on the door, or make sure I saw the elements of the "suicide tent" she had plans for, or show me all the pills she had stockpiled--as partly being an attempt to "show" me how much pain she is in. It was about getting my attention.

I think, for her, it worked like this. She felt real pain and despair. She wanted me to fix it. If she continued to feel that way, it must mean that I just didn't understand how much she is hurting, so she needed to ramp things up so that I would "see" how much she hurt. Because if I saw that, then surely I would make it better somehow. So it was kind of a manipulation to get me to rescue her somehow. The rescue efforts were bound to fail (because I don't have the power to change how she feels), and then she would have to do more to get my attention, show me her pain, and get me to keep trying to make it better.

Again, I don't know if that's what's happening in your case. I think my ex had a lot of different motivations for her suicidality, and they often overlapped, and it is really hard to sort any of it out while you're in the middle of it. I wish I had some actual advice that I thought would be helpful, but maybe some bit of my story and experience can somehow help here. Being a coping mechanism is part of it, but maybe not all of it.

[Bella2798]

Yes, it's definitely dangerous. Probably worth emphasizing that (again, at least in my ex's case) it was not just about coping. There were also aspects of attention-seeking and manipulation. I don't know if that's true of your partner, but talking about the particulars of how he might do it and offering to show you the rope is similar to stuff my ex did.

I don't know what I thought at the time it was happening, but I have come to see that kind of behavior--she would leave ropes hanging on the door, or make sure I saw the elements of the "suicide tent" she had plans for, or show me all the pills she had stockpiled--as partly being an attempt to "show" me how much pain she is in. It was about getting my attention.

I think, for her, it worked like this. She felt real pain and despair. She wanted me to fix it. If she continued to feel that way, it must mean that I just didn't understand how much she is hurting, so she needed to ramp things up so that I would "see" how much she hurt. Because if I saw that, then surely I would make it better somehow. So it was kind of a manipulation to get me to rescue her somehow. The rescue efforts were bound to fail (because I don't have the power to change how she feels), and then she would have to do more to get my attention, show me her pain, and get me to keep trying to make it better.

Again, I don't know if that's what's happening in your case. I think my ex had a lot of different motivations for her suicidality, and they often overlapped, and it is really hard to sort any of it out while you're in the middle of it. I wish I had some actual advice that I thought would be helpful, but maybe some bit of my story and experience can somehow help here. Being a coping mechanism is part of it, but maybe not all of it.

I think my partner has kind of the same motivations as your ex. It seems he knows I can't do anything special for his pain and problems, but maybe deep down he's in much pain that he acts out of awareness to get help from me. And also to run away from the pain and cope with everyday life and the pain he has during the day.

Probably I couldn't validate his pain enough, I always tried to show him another way except dying but now as you said this was another way in his eyes.

Thanks for the time you put in to write for me, it really means a lot and made many things more clear to me.

[kells76]

Hi Bella2798;

stolencrumbs has long-term experience with a partner with suicidality -- I'm glad you both are sharing thoughts.

In addition to his insights, you can check out bpdfamily's Suicide Ideation Emergency Protocol, especially the section on "If you are helping someone with suicidal thoughts".

Also, I'd recommend reviewing the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline resources on how to help someone else. You'll find some "do's and don'ts", background on what feelings may be behind suicidality, best practices in active listening, and contact info for crisis help. I believe there is a web based live chat option, and you don't have to be the suicidal person to reach out to them for help.

Hope that helps;

kells76