questions about how/what to say to our children

[waltsm]

As I wrote in an earlier post, my wife's and my couple's counselor asked for a one-on-one session with me some weeks ago. In that solo session C said that my wife's behavior toward me has (at times) been abusive. I have a lot of feelings and questions about that, like for example: why did I fail to recognize it? why have I put up with it? why haven't I been more effective over the last 24 years at helping support her health and well-being? why I haven't I been more effective at improving myself toward that end (among numerous others)? But at the moment (as we still live under the same roof, even though we've removed our rings (at her request), I'm really struggling with how best to help our children, S17 and D14(they/them).

I think lots of parents have over-inflated ideas about how excellent their children are, and I think I'm likely among them. I think our kids are excellent. They're teenagers, and I think this is a terrible time in history to be a teenager (the age of  the smart phone). But they're hard-working, often generously kind, and unusually self-possessed, skilled, and competent. A lot of this is just luck, some of it comes from the fact that my late mother-in-law lived with us through the 2nd and 3rd of the three strokes that ended her life. The kids were closely involved in caring for their grandmother up to and through the end, which was peaceful and beautiful its own way, here at home. Those experiences changed them, matured them, aged them in some ways beyond their years.

Having grown up myself in a household with divorce, alcoholism, and violence, it hurts me to see how much skill they've developed in managing/dealing with their mother's intense emotionality. Since our C told me that my wife "checks a lot of the boxes" for BPD, I've done quite a bit of reading here and elsewhere and feel much better informed than I was, much more aware of troublesome dynamics in our relationship. It hurts me to see our kids' skills in part because I see that they've had no choice but to develop those skills because I've never done a good enough job protecting them from that emotionality. When I've objected to how my wife has treated me, she's sometimes responded that I'm weak, or being defensive, or deflecting, obfuscating, gas-lighting her, et c... But when I've objected to how she's treated our children, that's been one of the things that's provoked some of the most intense rage (at me).

But taking our C's judgement as sound, that my wife's behavior toward me has been abusive, then when I see her treat them in similar ways, I see that I have to protect them, even now. I don't want to undermine my wife, their mother, with them. She's a remarkable person in many ways, has a good deal of respect and love from them - even though she also routinely undermines herself with them with her poor emotional self-regulation. I'm not qualified to diagnose her. Our C didn't quite diagnose her. Apparently like (all?) disorders, BPD presents across a spectrum. And my wife is very high-functioning in a good many ways. But I feel like it's unfair not to give them (some of?) the same tools and resources our C gave me in introducing me to BPD (like, for example, this board). This feeling is heightened by my pessimism at the moment that we're going to be able to stay living in the same house for much longer. I feel like if they're going to have to face the uncertainties and instabilities of separation/divorce that it's unfair not to give them best available information and resources to help themselves in addition to the help that their mother and I want and will try to. I think I really understand a lot of the reasons that it's not a good idea, not productive to sling the BPD label around. But it's also the case that: 1) I didn't concoct the suggestion - it came from our C, who we both think is very good; 2) speaking to the kids with terms like "emotions" and "behaviors" is a bit squishy, leaves the whole conversation in the realm of "my perspective" or "my opinion"; 3) If they read/heard some of the things I now have, from out in the real world, I think it would really help them understand what they've been dealing with, that it's not them, that they don't need to expect to have to deal with stuff lie this in their future lives/relationships.

It's confusing and exhausting. Sorry for writing a phone book here. I'm really grateful to have this place to try to sort through my thoughts and for any feedback any of you all might offer. So thanks. (Also, just as a reminder to myself, I really don't want "BPD" to distract me from doing the work to take responsibility for my mistakes and shortcomings in our relationship that have contributed to the sad present state.)

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RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[GaGrl]

I wish my stepchildren had been more prepared to deal with their mother's uBPD/NPD behaviors. All three of them were in their teens when's when their patents separated (ex left the household, left teens with dad).

My H stayed in the marriage to protect the children. By the time they were in their teens, all three of them were asking why, why, why he didn't divorce her.

Your children would benefit by having enough counseling sessions to let them surface their current feelings about their mother. You might be surprised st what comes out.

[waltsm]

Thank you, GaGrl, for your response and the suggestion that our kids could benefit from counseling. I'm embarrassed that I hadn't seen that already myself. I fear that they're skilled enough at dealing with it all by now that the stress and pain seem acceptable or inevitable to them. It hurts me to think how hard it might be for them to internalize, say, an expectation not to be hammered by those closest to them.

My wife tells me that our kids are mad at her for being the heavy, but that she's only had to be the heavy because I've been a bad partner, disengaged. It's true that I have disengaged from her, even in pathological ways that I learned as a kid in a messed-up home. But I think it's also true that she's always wanted/needed more than is realistic or healthy. That's bad chemistry.

I'm embarrassed by a lot of this, by my role, my actions and inactions. I say a lot of pretty condemnatory things to myself about it, and then overcompensate with a self-indulgent mix of resignation and disengagement.

We just had another terrible phone call. We each hung up on the other at least once in the space of about 20 minutes. I'm really trying to keep conversations calm, specific, present. I feel like neither of us can do whatever it would take to keep her from making statements that frame our present lives as un-fixable consequences of a monolithic history. "You never...", "How many countless times have I...", "It's always..."

For herself, she knows she's not (entirely) well. (And I will say the same for myself.) But I often feel like I have no standing to help. I've been her husband/partner for 24 years. I still carry my vow. In sickness and in health. But I'm such an aggravation to her. She's so frustrated/exasperated with me. She tells me she doesn't want to hear it from me, that she disagrees with my perspective, that I'm being mean, making accusations, counter-attacking, in ways clearly calculated to divert, to evade my responsibilities, in ways that don't acknowledge the legacy of my failures, my unreliability.

It's a mess. My self-confidence is often pretty low these days.

[Notwendy]

I am an adult daughter of a mother with BPD and if I could summarize advice- it would be to take care of yourself  - work on your own reasons for why you are enabling your wife's abusive behaviors. My father did a lot to mitigate the issues in our family. We are far better off due to his efforts and parenting- and yet on the other hand, we were also subjected to my mother's behavior. How is it that he allowed this to happen?

Because I realized that - unless he was able to manage to take a stand for himself- he wouldn't be able to do that for anyone else.

I had a simplified view of their relationship. I saw my mother as the "one with the problem" and my father as the victim of her behavior. Yet, she was the one who was completely dependent on him for almost everything. He earned the income. She is severely BPD and he was her caretaker. How is it that she somehow had so much control?

Both parents are role models for children. I knew that I didn't want to behave like my mother. Her behaviors were obviously disordered. Dad was the "good guy" and while he role modeled many positive qualities - he also role modeled enabling and other co-dependent behaviors. These were considered to be "normal" in our family, but then, as an adult, walking on eggshells, people pleasing- these behaviors caused issues in other relationships.

It was a counselor who suggested I attend 12 step groups for co-dependency. This puzzled me as alcohol was not a concern for me. I learned through ACA groups that children who grow up in families where there is alcoholism learn similar behaviors as children who grow up with dysfunction. The family dynamics are similar. We learn these as our "normal" and then tend to pair up with people who also feel a sense of familiarity with this dynamic. This is how the next generation learns them.

It doesn't seem like a coincidence that you grew up in a family where there is alcoholism involved and found yourself in an abusive and enabling situation. While on one hand, it's good that you want to assist your children in dealing with their mother- IMHO, taking care of yourself and your own situation is the best way to demonstrate this to them.

There's a lot of learning involved in changing your own behaviors and to lessen the enabling ones. It might not seem fair to you that you become the one who goes to counseling (and 12 step groups if you choose). She's the one with the problem- right? But the dynamics take both of you, and you can only work on your own part in this. We can't change someone else. If you do your part, you can role model the new behaviors for your children.

I am glad you are aware of your children being exceptionally good at managing their mother and being exceptional kids as well- as being also a concern. It's good when kids are doing well in school and acting mature- but for us kids, this also became a camouflage for what was going on at home. Children respond differently to home issues depending on many factors, one being resiliency. It helps resiliency to have loving stable adults in their lives. We did as well- we spent time with my father's family- and I see your kids also had this too.

The more you are able to take care of yourself in this relationship- to decrease the walking on eggshells, to lessen enabling- the better you will be at also being able to show your kids how to do this.

[waltsm]

Thank you for your response, Notwendy. I'm really trying hard to do my own work, to be present, calm, whole, et c, for myself and my whole family. There are just a lot of real challenges in it. I know I'll need to develop better skills for weathering the criticism and rejection that my efforts sometimes elicit from my wife. It's hard to keep up the effort when the response is that the net impact is negative.

[Notwendy]

It is difficult, and also hard to observe how my mother treated my father sometimes. The criticisms reflect her thinking though, and we can't change that. She's critical of most people and most things.

One thing to keep in mind is that what your wife says is more about her than you. ( or anyone else ). These are her own projections of her feelings on to you ( or whatever). So no matter what you do to try to prove her other wise, you can't change her thinking.

An analogy I have shared here is to substitute something absurd for the criticism. If your wife called you a pink elephant, would that make you one? Would that hurt your feelings? Would you try to convince her that you aren't one? I think you'd realize that- even if your wife believed you are an elephant, her thinking you are one doesn't make that true. And if someone believes that, you wouldn't try to convince them otherwise.

It's frustrating, I understand. I can visit my mother and do a lot of nice things for her. She'll find something I didn't do the way she wanted it, or did something she didn't like- even if there was no intent to do that and I did a lot of nice things for her.

[waltsm]

Thanks again, Notwendy. I'm going to keep re-reading your responses. There's a lot in them for me to think about, work on, internalize. I appreciate it.

[Notwendy]

I understand- it's difficult. The criticism is a constant for my mother. She is often critical of most people and things.

One of the ideas that helped me to not take what she says as personally is the Karpman triangle. She seems to have victim perspective. To me, the criticism is due to her projection and also feeling like a victim.