family get togethers

[Harrisps]

Hello,

Haven't posted in a long time but our struggles continue and this website/forum is incredible support, thank you.

As Xmas approaches family get togethers are being organised and the mention of one that includes my birth side of the family; parents, sister, aunty, cousins etc. has sent my ubpdw into dysregulation.

For over a year my aunty has been the target due to a misunderstanding in a text message around a previous birthday celebration. These are people who i have been close with my entire life, live minutes drive from and now have very little contact with.

So, when the invite came my default feeling was negative. A huge part of me doesn't want things to be organised to avoid the dysregualtion. This isn't me but ive stopped looking forward to things i wouldve previously.

But another part of me wants to attend. So ive accepted, we have 2 young children 6 and 3 and we're all invited. My wife is adamant she isn't going to come.

Yesterday she asked me not to go to prove a point that she comes first.

This makes me feel isolated from people, i said no as I feel this is a boundary i need to set. but there is a part of that has one hand throwing the towel as its so hard to keep going through and staying strong for. Our kids also witnessing the rage and they're confused about the things they're hearing about me and other people in our lives.

Just needed to get this out there and wonder if anyone else is going through something similar and any advice on ways to manage?

Lastly, does anyone have any thoughts on being asked the question; do this to put me first? Is it ever a good idea to to accommodate this even though it feels very unfair?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[GaGrl]

Persons with BPD often engage in separating and isolating partners from family and friends. This sounds like what your wife is doing, with holiday get-togethers as the tool.

This does not get better -- it gets worse. Eventually, you will not be "allowed" to take your children, and they will not have the benefit of knowing an entire side of their family.

Are you okay with this? If so, start creating your own nuclear family traditions, and work your head around the lack of extended family time.

If not, this is as good a place for a boundary as any. You won't/can't make your wife attend, but you and the children will attend.

She will have an extinction burst and be unbearable, probably attempt to prevent you from attending up to the minute of departure. Expect that. However, this is a fundamental need of yours that you would be taking a stand on.

[HurtAndTired]

Hi Harrisps,

I can identify with this so much that I could have practically written it myself. My uBPDw and I have been together for 12 years and over that time I have slowly isolated from friends and family. Not that she has ever explicitly told me that I could not spend time with people, but I just grew so tired of the fights that would happen when I would do so that I eventually tapered off the amount of time I would spend with them in hopes that this would finally bring more peace to my life. By 5 years ago I was regularly seeing my parents, but my friends were only an occasional indulgence for birthdays or special occasions. Then she had a BPD rage episode at a New Year's Eve party and physically attacked me after falsely accusing me of sleeping with a friend's wife at the party (I have been friends with the couple for approaching 30 years and the party was in their home). She hit me in the head and her ring cut my ear and I bled all over the floor and furniture.

After that, I was so ashamed of that happening in front of my friends that I cut off all contact with everyone outside of my parents, church, and work. None of that brought peace into my home, however. Fast forward to today and we have a wonderful 2-and-a-half-year-old son. While I was unable to find the courage to stand up to my wife before, I now had to worry about our toddler watching me be disrespected and abused (verbally, emotionally, mentally, and physically). I knew that it was time to lay down boundaries and enforce them so that he would not grow up thinking that the way Mom treats Dad is normal or okay. I knew that I had to change things on a fundamental level for his sake.

I found this website and it has changed my life. This community has been amazingly supportive and has provided me with information, resources, and advice. One of these resources is the book "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life" by Margalis Fjelstad. It gave me deep insight into my relationship, why I was in it, how I had allowed it to get to the point it was at and, best of all, it told me how to get my life back.

Although I recommend that you read it in full, in a nutshell, it says this; pwBPD are going to split, rage, and act inappropriately no matter what you do. There is no amount of pleasing, capitulating, compromising, and caretaking that you can do that will prevent them from acting out. The only thing you can do is choose to not play a role in their dysfunctional games anymore. Part of this is laying down and enforcing clear boundaries around unacceptable behavior, and a part of it is self-care (which most of us spouses and partners have neglected to do for many years). For me, that self-care involves remaining connected to the people who truly care for me, namely my family and people who have been my close friends for more than 3 decades. If my wife gets upset that I see them, I will enforce my boundaries about no verbal or emotional abuse (I leave when there is name calling and yelling and take our son with me).

The important thing is this, when you are a "non" partner of a pwBPD, you need all of the support you can get. This means your family and friends. I have finally opened up to my family and friends about my wife's condition and have told them that I had been covering up her behavior for years out of shame (men aren't supposed to be the abused ones, right?) They have been incredibly supportive. They understand that I want to save my marriage and why I am staying, but they also totally get why I have acted weird and distant for years. Additionally, they feel sympathy for my wife and the massive amount of abuse that she went through as a young child that contributed to her having this condition. Now when I want to see friends and family I let my wife know that I have plans and then go...like any other normal adult. Now that I have the tools to enforce my boundaries, I am no longer letting myself be ruled by fear of her or her dysfunctional behavior. It's amazing how liberating it is when you no longer fear someone whom you have feared for years.

What your wife is asking you to do is unfair and is coming from her deep insecurity. I would try something like this. Validate her feelings without agreeing to her facts (for her and others with BPD feelings = facts). Tell her that understand that she finds some people in your family triggering and that this must be very difficult for her, then tell her that these are members of your family and that you love your family and are planning to see them for the holidays with your kids, but that you understand why she would choose not to come (although she is always welcome). It's part of the SET communication technique (Support, Empathy, Truth) and it's a way to validate her feelings while maintaining your truth. You CAN choose to love and accept your wife, but not love or accept her behaviors.

Best of luck, and keep me posted. I'll be praying for you and your family!

HurtAndTired

[Harrisps]

Thank you both, reading your responses has given me clarity and strength.

Gagrl - thank you for your straight talking, I needed that shake and you're right this is as good a time to set a clear boundary and understand the fallout is expected.

Hurt and Tired - Your will to keep loving your wife and to learn more about the disorder so you've been able to navigate a way to feeling more whole is admirable and ultimately what I'm still hoping to achieve. I will definitely look up that book.

Thanks

[ForeverDad]

Boundaries are so very important.  A common pattern with pwBPD is that if you weaken a boundary, then they'll almost certainly demand more concessions.  See the Boundary articles on our Tools & skills Workshops board.  Or here:
Setting Boundaries and Setting Limits

The escalation is more or less a predictable response to your better boundaries.  Your spouse has a comfort zone where she sets the rules and orders (that apply to you but not necessarily to her).  You've upset her preferred view of family life.  Hence, the Extinction Burst reaction designed to cause you to retreat to prior weak behavior patterns and responses,  where you had previously submitted yourself to her controller demands.

So, what do you do now?  If they're reasonable and decent boundaries, stick with them.  But... what are the boundaries?  PwBPD resist boundaries, especially when you're telling them what to do or not do.  So, with that understood, how do you make workable boundaries?  You may not read these words directly in the text of the boundaries articles I linked above, but in my perspective it boils down to a simple equation... "If you do or don't do ___, then in response I will do or not do ___."  Mostly your response will be a variation of a timeout to let her ponder the matter, cool down, or whatever.

Read those links.  They have examples.  For a generic example, if your reasonable boundary is violated, tell her you're going to take a walk around the block or go to the supermarket to purchase something.  If the kids were observing, let them come along.  If it involves something about the kids, take them to a local park or some other activity for a while, not as a reward but to give her some time to reset and then return with the kids as though everything was normal.  Warning, it may take a few times before she gets the idea.  PwBPD are erratic and predictably unpredictable so accept that nothing works all the time.

Yes, certain events such as anniversaries, gatherings and a myriad of other triggers can put your spouse on edge.  Some are minor and you can often let her cool down or you Let them Go.  (Or you can start with the small stuff to get a feel for how to do it.)  Incidents that impact you, the children, or the entire family, that is of more lasting concern.

One final thought.  You always need to keep your composure.  If there is any shouting, ranting or raging, ensure it isn't you.  Always be calm, or as calm as possible, set an example for your children.  Did you notice in my example above that you should walk away from conflict?  Don't engage shouting matches, they don't accomplish anything.  Let that be an example for your children to see and in time imitate.

[thankful person]

Hi Harrisps,

I agree with everyone here, I’ve had the same experience and had to really fight to maintain relationships with my family and also for my children to see them. My wife threatened divorce on a daily basis a few months ago (it wasn’t new she had done it for months anyway) but this was over my insistence that I wanted my mother to see our children this year and dbpdw was saying “no it’ll be next year, or never if I say so”.  :caution:Anyway, she miraculously got over it when she knew I meant business. My mother visited, everyone got along fine, and then my wife invited my mother to come again but sadly she can’t make it. My wife just likes to be in control. But I felt very sad that my mother had to realise how mentally unstable my wife is, as like many partners of pwbpd, I had managed to try and keep this quite hidden. My wife had already told my brother that no one will be welcome between Christmas and New Year, but he’s saying it’s the only time he can come and see us and I’m thinking that’s why my wife has booked us a trip away for a week after Christmas! You really have to pick your battles carefully, and then not back down.

Stay strong and good luck!

[Harrisps]

Thanks Forever Dad and Thankful Person - this is a tough week but i'm using the tools and staying strong in decision.

I love my wife, our children, our home. This disorder is just incredibly difficult and confusing. Rage continues today - do something or leave us, i hate you, you never stand up for me, you make me incredibly depressed, you are controlling making me live like this, you're being abusive - lots of door slamming, storming off etc.

And it's not even 3pm!

[thankful person]

Harrisps, honestly, this is exactly how my wife was when I insisted my mother would see the children, and I even started looking into what my legal rights would be over this, considering we aren’t separated. My insistence was, “I want my mother to see the children this summer.” And this was when my wife said, “No, it’ll be next year or never if I say so.” (And btw my mother has never done anything to upset my wife and in fact given us much money over the years and money is my wife’s favourite thing). When she realised I was serious she invited Mum round herself. I genuinely feared whether my marriage would survive it but eventually my wife got over it.

[ForeverDad]

Part of the "ranting and raging" is a strategy called Extinction Burst (do a search here for that phrase) when the other person raises the level of conflict so high that you're tempted to appease or give in on whatever boundaries you've implemented.  The other person is determined to put you in a situation where you feel it is better (or less bad) to retreat to the other's "comfort zone".

Of course, retreating from better boundaries is not a solution, the triggers still remain and are bound to recur, sooner than later.

[thankful person]

Part of the "ranting and raging" is a strategy called Extinction Burst (do a search here for that phrase) when the other person raises the level of conflict so high that you're tempted to appease or give in on whatever boundaries you've implemented.  The other person is determined to put you in a situation where you feel it is better (or less bad) to retreat to the other's "comfort zone".

Of course, retreating from better boundaries is not a solution, the triggers still remain and are bound to recur, sooner than later.

Yes at that time my wife was threatening to physically throw me out of the front door and have the locks changed so I couldn’t get back in. She also said if I didn’t leave that day she would take the children to a hotel to get away from me. She did not follow through on these threats. But they felt very real at the time and I hate to know I’ll probably have to go through it all again in the future and our marriage may not survive it.

[ForeverDad]

I was there in your shoes but that was in 2004-05.  I tried to get my spouse to join me in marital counseling but she flatly refused.  Within a few months we were separated and that led into divorce.  Not an outcome I wished for but it was what it was.

This is the Bettering board, not the Separating or Divorcing board, so let's see whether we can come to a better outcome than I had...

Is there any way possible that your spouse could agree to start some joint therapy sessions, such as marital counseling?  If so, then at least that would be a start in the right direction.  No promises of course, but a start you could build upon if she doesn't bail on continuing the joint sessions or refuse to morph into each of you also doing personal sessions with separate therapists.

[Notwendy]

If you give in to the rages, that reinforces the behavior. We grew up with them and they were very dramatic- BPD mother sometimes trashed the house, breaking dishes in the kitchen. These behaviors worked for her. We were afraid of her. She'd even threaten "do this or there will be a "scene" (as she called them)".

She disliked my father's family and although I think it was mutual- they were cordial and polite to her probably for my father's sake. She didn't see them much but she did agree to let us stay with them during school breaks and we became close to them. But there was a distance between them and my mother and I think it was difficult for my father to visit them.

I agree with Hurt and Tired to insist on the connection with family- even through the rages which I know isn't easy but I do not know of any other way. This is not a logical situation- I don't think it is solved by talking it out because for the pwBPD the problem is the feelings and feelings are not logical. The kind of love one feels for a family member is not the same as how one feels for a spouse. It isn't a competition. However, the pwBPD might feel differently and logic doesn't seem to apply.

You say you "love your wife and children" and that is a good thing but somewhere in this love- there needs to be self love too. Self love to stand up for the relationships that are important to you because - to maintain them, I think you have to.

There is another side to this- and it is how the family feels about the loss of contact. It's expected that when a person marries, the spousal relationship is primary but I don't think family expects there's little to no contact and so they are likely missing this too.

[Harrisps]

This is the hardest week for a long time, Not Wendy thank you for your insight on what it’s like from a daughters perspective. I’m wondering about my childrens perceptions of it all especially now my daughter is 6 and naturally is more aware, asks questions and feels more.

The extinction bursts do explain a lot, I know at this point there is no rationality and just have to weather through it but not back down on something that i perceive is reasonable.

Get together is Sunday lunchtime, it’s all so crazy it should be something to look forward to, I struggle with so many occasions now tarnished through these sorts of build ups but I do know now after years of pushing back in conflict or succumbing to appease my wife, that it’s the disorder taking over and little can be done during the times of dysregulation other than try to avoid further escalation … thinking about it I have definitely missed out on things to avoid escalation but I’m realising that isn’t solving anything. I am better now though at not reacting in anger when being pushed to limits. I feel this is important for my energy and for the children.



 

[ForeverDad]

Beware that just before you're ready to depart for the gathering that "something" will happen to derail your plans.  Some crisis will arise or some impossible situation.

Or... maybe nothing will happen, as if the forecast of a storm faded away.

One thing we've all learned, life with a spouse with BPD behaviors (pwBPD) is predictably unpredictable.

[Notwendy]

Although my BPD mother disliked my father's family- we spent time with them as kids and got close to them. Oddly, it is her family who somehow got distanced. We did spend time with them too but didn't connect in the same way. I know my cousins on that side but our kids don't know each other well. On my father's side- our children know each other and even if they live at a distance-they have a connection.

This isn't only about you or "putting your wife first"- it's also for your children and your family. They will want to get to know each other. Whether or not they form a connection is a combination of their personalities- there's no telling whether or not the children will grow up to be friends- but they will at least have the chance.

My BPD mother's family didn't know what was going on with her. They have figured it out recently. One of them said they thought my parents were snubbing them by not spending time with them or inviting them over.

There's also hurt feelings and grief on the part of the "rejected" family. I have been on that side as well as an adult. BPD mother sees people as being "on her side" or "not her side".  Read about the Karpman triangle. Your wife is taking victim perspective, she sees your family as the persecutor and expects you to "rescue" her. This dynamic can play out with others in the persecutor position and your wife as victim.

I agree with FD that there's the possibilty of a "crisis" that may interfere with your plans to go to the lunch. If possible, to take the kids and go anyway- even if she refuses to go.  Cutting contact with your family can cause hurt feelings on their part. 

[Harrisps]

The lunch was early and my wife did not want to see any of us this morning and stayed in bed until we left.

We left 2 hours before the table was booked to give the kids a more active day rather than wondering again why their mum was not getting up.

We had a nice time children loved playing with their half cousins and it was a glimpse of what a more regular family life feels like.

Since coming home my wife is full of rage, closest we have been to crisis in a long time. So far she has been lashing her arms at me, smashed my acoustic guitar to pieces and broken a glass lamp all over the floor - she has cleaned all of the glass up herself so I feel she realises at least how dangerous that was with children walking on the same floor. 

Right now I can hear her crying in bed and we’re sat in my daughters bedroom. Kids are happy playing and I’m hoping things will start to deescalate.

This is such a demon side to be around so hard when we all know there is another side that’s very different.
 

[Notwendy]

Sounds like a typical event for us as kids. BPD mother would stay in bed, avoiding get togethers like this. As to trashing the house and personal items- yes. Dad didn't have a guitar but she did this with some items he was attached to for his hobbies. Confiscated our toys and other items we cared about if she was angry at us too. Trashed the kitchen, broke the dishes, threw things out of the fridge.

And the crying loudly in her room.

Once at school the principal asked me why I didn't do my homework the night before, and I told him I was cleaning up the mess in the house (after one of my mother's rages) .He called my mother in and she denied it so he assumed I made it up. We were not allowed to tell anyone about what went on in our house. This was one of the few times I did- but people didn't believe it anyway.

I am glad you went and the kids had fun with their cousins. This is a good memory for them and it has the potential to continue for them as adults. These are positive relationships.

Had you not gone, you would have reinforced your wife's behaviors and your and your children would have missed out on this family connection. I am sorry that your wife is doing this and also sorry about your guitar. One idea to keep in mind is that- if something is important to you, keep it somewhere else, like a storage unit.

I know this is on the bettering board and I don't tknow how to stop this behavior but I do know that giving in doesn't stop it because it reinforces it.

[ForeverDad]

We had a nice time children loved playing with their half cousins and it was a glimpse of what a more regular family life feels like.

Since coming home my wife is full of rage, closest we have been to crisis in a long time. So far she has been lashing her arms at me, smashed my acoustic guitar to pieces and broken a glass lamp all over the floor - she has cleaned all of the glass up herself so I feel she realises at least how dangerous that was with children walking on the same floor. 

Right now I can hear her crying in bed and we’re sat in my daughters bedroom. Kids are happy playing and I’m hoping things will start to deescalate.

I have to limit myself here since most of my posts are on the Separating/Divorcing board.  Here in Bettering I can only say I've "been there, done that".  I tried.  I really did try.  But nothing worked, at least not for long.  The discord increased when we had a child after a dozen years married.  I thought she'd be happier raising a young child and watching him discover the joys of life.  Instead, it reminded her of her childhood fears and traumas.  It was like watching a slow motion train wreck and unable to stop it.

You can't "fix" her.  You are in a long term emotional relationship and the downside of BPD is that whatever you do to try to help will encounter her perceptions and she's less likely to listen to you through the past emotional baggage.  The wonder of therapy is that a person trained with counseling will strive to remain emotionally neutral.  That's what prompted this post.  It may or may not work, but it's likely the deciding factor whether your marriage can last.

Is there any way possible that you and your spouse could agree to start some joint therapy sessions, such as marital counseling?  If so, then at least that would be a start in the right direction.  No promises of course, but a start you could build upon if she doesn't bail on continuing the joint sessions or refuse to morph into each of you also doing personal sessions with separate therapists.

As Notwendy wrote, my ex too would moan, groan and sob in our spare bedroom.  She continually broke things, usually computer parts like mice and keyboards.

There was no way to predict whether something would trigger her or not.  One anniversary I brought her a beautiful bouquet of flowers.   She threw them in the trash because they weren't roses.  Another time I did bring roses but she was so upset that she cut the roses off and I found the stems in the trash.  Emotionally she was constantly all over the map.  Sadly, she refused any counseling.

[ForeverDad]

Even if she refuses to benefit from counseling, it can benefit you.  Your children too could benefit, I think it's called play therapy.

[Notwendy]

I am mostly on the "parent with BPD board" but post here mostly when I see a situation that is similar to the dynamics I grew up with- in this one to support the relationship with your family- for your sake and for the children to have a positive relatioship with them ( if possible, sometimes extended family is disordered as well). I did observe that appeasing the BPD person over this issues does not lead to a long term reduction in their opposing seeing family. It may alleviate a temporary reaction but that only reinforces the behavior.

Appeasing also causes considerable grief on the part of the family who are disconnected. Mostly they did nothing to deserve that or the most they may have done is an slight that the pwBPD reacts as if it was an unforgettable crime of the century. Yet, then- they might rage and trash the house with no consequence for their behavior.

I am glad you went to the luncheon.

[Harrisps]

Even though this played out the way it has, I am pleased I didn’t back down on this one and thank everyone again for support and lessons.

The house is much more settled atm, wife’s wedding rings are off and any communication between us is minimal and cold. Like you said Not Wendy ‘crime of the century’ has been committed! How could you do this to me, nobody has ever hurt me like you have, you nasty man etc. but at least the rage has defused for now and the children are having happier times with her.

She has also been to our family doctor tonight and says she is open to therapy. Which I definitely look at as positive but I sense she doesn’t want to be shaken from her version of right and wrong atm and knows therapy will challenge that.

[Harrisps]

Just to add on, I could’ve not went to this get together, potentially not even of mentioned it and pulled down the shutters till the date passed. Maybe it would’ve been a less chaotic week but I am sure that by sticking with this boundary highlighted something that ultimately has led to my wife beginning to seek some help.

Even talking about therapy wouldn’t be happening today if I didn’t go to appease my wife.