Pressure on SD17 to manage Mom's house: part 2

[kells76]

[continued from https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=357388.0]

Anyway. That's the background for this past weekend.

SD17 had asked me a few months ago why I liked doing the dishes   and at the time, I laughed it off by saying it was for the dopamine hit. I thought about that some more after hearing what she and H talked about on our Christmas trip (how much SD17 was doing at Mom's) so when I had a minute with her and the topic came up, I mentioned that I remembered her question and there was more to it than just feeling awesome -- that in a way, making our home calm and clean and livable was kind of like a work of art -- an interactive installation -- and as much as part of doing the dishes/cleaning is just stepping into adult responsibility, we can also "train" ourselves to find joy and pride in it, to make it fun and to exercise our creativity and artistry through "keeping house". I think I was hoping to share with her an alternative point of view, that yes, adults can manage the home without it being some huge waste of time or obstacle from "true artistry" [the kids' mom, as far as we can tell, rarely has a solid job and spends time at some kind of "art studio"].

We needed some bulk groceries at a store a little far from our house, so I mentioned to H I'd try to fit that in. SD17 overheard me and said she wanted to come too, which was odd at the time but I figured she just wanted to get out of the house and do something.

She was cute and fun, just being a goofy kid making racecar noises while "driving" the cart, and we were going thru the list and discussing getting good deals and checking price per unit. We went down the pads/tampons aisle and I asked her if what we had at home was working or if she wanted to try anything else. She said that actually, she didn't really have a period, she only got it about every 3 months. I asked if it had been like that for a while or had changed recently, and she said she wasn't sure, it was probably for a while, but she didn't really track it. But then she said that she only got her period when she was with us for a weekend, never at Mom's house.

I validated that by saying that that had happened to me, too, when I had a stressful work trip coming up many years ago, that there is a mind-body connection and our bodies can know that "now isn't the time". I mentioned that it would probably be a good thing to check out with her doctor, and she said she didn't have a doctor. I still tried to stay chill and shared that it's kind of important to have a regular period, because it impacts bone health, and when I had an eating disorder and didn't have a period, I ended up with serious bone issues. She said she felt fine, but I told her bone stuff sneaks up on you, so it'd be a good idea to check it out, and H and I would be happy to help her find a doctor -- and who knows, she might go and the doctor might say "well, that's just your unique cycle, and it's fine", or the doctor might say "let's check that out just to be sure".

She said she didn't think she had an eating disorder [I agree] but it was probably because of the stress and anxiety she has at Mom's, and I validated that too as making a lot of sense.

Somehow I then asked her about her trip coming up, and how she felt about it, and she said mostly happy but it was a mixed bag. I asked if she felt guilty about going and she said yes. She talked about how she had some "to do" list stuff she wanted to get in order before going -- she wanted to "leave things running as smoothly as possible" even though it wouldn't last, and I asked what it was, and she said that right now she's the only one doing laundry for her and their 10YO brother (I'm assuming SD15 does her own laundry but didn't ask), so she wants to teach him to do his laundry. I validated that that made sense and would be a great life skill for him and a good gift. Then she said she wanted to put together a grocery list to leave, because "they [I'm assuming Mom/Stepdad] have different priorities right now and don't focus on buying food that SD15 will actually eat" [I agree with her that SD15 is a very picky eater, almost eating disordered/selective eating -- my mom actually was worried enough about this to raise it with me a year or two ago]. So that made sense of why she wanted to do a boring bulk grocery trip with me. It sounds like groceries somehow do get purchased at Mom’s but not with an eye to SD15's needs. So SD17 wants to put together a specific list so that someone at Mom's house will buy food that SD15 will eat. I again tried to validate SD17 by saying that I could see that, that even though buying dry beans, for example, might be cheaper, if nobody eats them, that isn't really saving money or helping. I let her know that I'd actually been having the same thought, so I'd be happy to work with her to put together that list of nutritious foods that SD15 will eat.

She also wants to get a different job before she goes (her current gig isn't giving her hours), so she and H had stopped by a local restaurant and she got contact info to submit an application.

And, she said she wants to get her driver’s license, because she’s had her permit for over a year, but “nobody there [at Mom’s] has time to teach me”.

I let her know that while I tried not to overstep my role, I also wanted her to know that H and I want to be there for her to take some weight off of her shoulders, so she doesn’t have to carry all of this alone. She was grateful.

In the truck on the way home I added that what I wanted her to know about me was that I was not approaching this from a judgmental place about “which house is doing it right and which house is doing it wrong”, that I had compassion for everyone involved and that my number one focus was making sure her needs and SD15’s needs got met, that I was coming at this from a problem-solving perspective, not a “what people should be doing” perspective, which was a different kind of conversation. She appreciated that too. I added that I wanted to make sure that she knew that I wasn’t coming from a place of “I’m better than others, I’m doing it right, I’m one-up”, because I have let her down and failed her and it’s not like I’m some perfect person – I’m just me trying to help in this situation.

She asked when I had let her down, and I reminded her that I’d sent her an email about how I was pretty limited in my ability to have high-intensity conversations with her in person. She said “That’s OK” and I finally pushed back on her minimization (she says stuff like “…but it’s fine” a lot, after disappointments) and shared that no, it actually wasn’t OK, and to me, that was failing her and SD15, because they have needs to have those kinds of conversations, and I was not meeting that need.

I let her know that I have also seen the dynamics she is experiencing and she isn't crazy for seeing it or talking about it. She said "I know" so I just emphasized that I didn't want her to feel alone or like she was the only one who knew.

She was pretty balanced and we had a good wrap up talk about threading the needle between accepting your inherent personality leanings, and pushing yourself to grow.

I asked later if she wanted to practice driving on the truck (it's a giant diesel) and she actually said yes (she's had bad dreams about it before), so we got some drive time in, and she ended up liking the truck more that she'd feared she would -- she said it felt solid and predictable and like it wouldn't accidentally go too fast  

...

Probably the biggest surprise to me was that in the past, she would’ve taken every opportunity to say things like “But there are problems at both houses”, and/or to focus for a while on H’s failings before raising any issues about Mom/Stepdad. There was none of that here. This is the most open she’s been about problems there, and the most negative about them, that I’ve ever heard (H too). There were no mitigating statements.

…

I’m not really sure where to go with this. It’s a lot to process. With SD15, who I believe is still desperate for Mom to pay attention to her and who still likely attributes a lot of negative feelings/emotions to “Well Dad left so that’s the only reason why I’m having a hard time”, we have to have a lighter touch. SD17 I think can handle us being direct about “Mom isn’t meeting your needs, how do we move forward”, but SD15 wants/needs to believe everything is OK, so we can’t be direct with her (re: the space heater). (Oddly enough, after the heater conversation, I was kind of fuming on a walk around the neighborhood, and I found a free one on the side of the road… so, problem kind of solved). H did finally realize why SD15 spends so much time with friends out of the house – escaping stuff at Mom’s without really facing it. Again, though, likely due to loyalty binds, neither kid, for their own reasons, would think of coming to our place more. Neither kid is resisting scheduled time with us, though, which especially for SD15 is a step up.

Mom has full custody so we have limitations in what we can do legally/professionally. I think we’ll focus on helping SD17 with her to-do list and with staying validating, and on having empathy instead of frustration for SD15, who is likely doing the best she can with her current skill set. My suspicion is that if H or I were involved at all in a CPS report, that would make things worse for the kids – SD17 might be thought of as “betraying The Family”, and SD15 would likely entrench in co-victimization with Mom: “Our family is just cool and punk and artistic, I can’t believe They’re coming after us, we’re just poor and didn’t do anything wrong”. I don’t know what it would take to push me to asking my T to report, and I don’t know if I should at this point – like, if I’m not seeing things clearly. A lot of the stuff that had happened (rats, bed, heater) are “resolved”, so I’d suspect that any personnel who showed up would get the NPD song-and-dance and get snowed by the charisma.

SD17 ages out of the parenting plan very soon, and then it’s just (checks calendar) ~2.3 years to go for SD15. So it’s more a question of how we care for SD15, especially, as SD17 stops overfunctioning for Mom’s house. Again, not really sure I have a question in all this, more getting it out on paper.

[Notwendy]

Kells, in conrast to D17's prior behavior- where she seems to have been critical of you and your H's lifestyle- and align with her BPD mother- it seems she is seeing a larger picture. I see this as a "win" for you and your H- not a win against BPD mother but a win in that she is able to speak with the two of you about what she perceives, which is different from before. This is part maturity and also a result of the groundwork you and H have done to be an emotionally safe family for her.

In my own family, my perception was invalidated. We had to act as if there was nothing wrong at home or with BPD mother. By my teens though- I could see for myself and yet ,there was no way I could speak to my parents about it- that was met with denial and punishment. I also didn't feel comfortable talking about it with extended family.

In your situation ( and it might not be in all divorced families as that can vary) you and your H have provided an emotionally nurturing family for the children. This took work and sometimes tears. Teens can push the emotions of even the most emotionally stable parents. To me - that your D17 can even say what she's said to you is a big step for her and it's to your credit that she can do this. We didn't feel comfortable telling anyone what went on in our house. People outside the family wouldn't believe it.

You are still walking that line between being a support person and not triangulating with their mother. As much as you would want to confirm mental illness, you know you aren't the one to say it. But even so -you can listen to them, are loving and caring- and they feel they can tell you these things.  On the board for those of us with BPD parents, I posted an article on the kind of shame we feel if we say something about our mothers to other people due to the default assumption that we are "badmouthing" our mothers. So mostly it's not something spoken about.

I also agree with you about meeting kids' needs if you can- regardless of the "rules". It doesn't mean breaking the bank on your household needs but if they need a space heater for their room- that seems reasonable and one with safety features is worth the investment. In all the Karmpan triangle dynamics- only one party is truly a victim- victims have no choices and that is the children. They are dependent on their parents and it's good that they have you and your H.

As to D17 being in a position of responsibility- I think that is inevitable to some extent. She may be the only "adult" (emotionally) in the house and even she isn't emotionally fully grown up. At this point- the path for her is ahead- whatever her plans are to further her education or employment- the task now is for her to become an independent adult over the next few years. This doesn't happen all at once, it's a process-so however you can assist in this goal- either tuition or transportation - for her to get there would be helpful and also for D15 after that.

[kells76]

Kells, in conrast to D17's prior behavior- where she seems to have been critical of you and your H's lifestyle- and align with her BPD mother- it seems she is seeing a larger picture. I see this as a "win" for you and your H- not a win against BPD mother but a win in that she is able to speak with the two of you about what she perceives, which is different from before. This is part maturity and also a result of the groundwork you and H have done to be an emotionally safe family for her.

That makes sense that there are just brain maturity limitations on what a kid can process and perceive, and even though for over a decade SD17 hasn't had that ability, it's coming online now.

In my own family, my perception was invalidated. We had to act as if there was nothing wrong at home or with BPD mother. By my teens though- I could see for myself and yet ,there was no way I could speak to my parents about it- that was met with denial and punishment. I also didn't feel comfortable talking about it with extended family.

I hadn't thought about asking SD17 if she felt like she needed to keep things secret -- thanks for the perspective. It might also be good to bring up: "You've mentioned a few things going on at Mom's, is there more that you might want to share, that you feel like you shouldn't, or are conflicted about sharing?"

In your situation ( and it might not be in all divorced families as that can vary) you and your H have provided an emotionally nurturing family for the children. This took work and sometimes tears. Teens can push the emotions of even the most emotionally stable parents. To me - that your D17 can even say what she's said to you is a big step for her and it's to your credit that she can do this. We didn't feel comfortable telling anyone what went on in our house. People outside the family wouldn't believe it.

That's another good point -- to maybe dialog with her about if she had worries about not being believed, or if she thought only some people would believe what was happening.

I think the kids have a solid relationship with their stepdad's mom, who seems like a down to earth person, but I don't know if there are other people in the Mom/Stepdad orbit who would take seriously SD17's concerns.

You are still walking that line between being a support person and not triangulating with their mother. As much as you would want to confirm mental illness, you know you aren't the one to say it. But even so -you can listen to them, are loving and caring- and they feel they can tell you these things.  On the board for those of us with BPD parents, I posted an article on the kind of shame we feel if we say something about our mothers to other people due to the default assumption that we are "badmouthing" our mothers. So mostly it's not something spoken about.

My T brought that up with me, that if SD17 reached out to school personnel at SD15's and at their 10YO brother's schools, if those teachers made a report, then SD17 might be treated as a "betrayer of The Family" --  a similar label/role as a "badmouther".

I also agree with you about meeting kids' needs if you can- regardless of the "rules". It doesn't mean breaking the bank on your household needs but if they need a space heater for their room- that seems reasonable and one with safety features is worth the investment. In all the Karmpan triangle dynamics- only one party is truly a victim- victims have no choices and that is the children. They are dependent on their parents and it's good that they have you and your H.

And so if their mom wishes to occupy the Victim position, that boots the kids out into other roles, even though by rights as children they are the true victims of the situation.

Reflecting more on the narrative that the kids mentioned a few years ago -- that "after the divorce, we were so poor at Mom's house that she would go without food so we could eat" -- it never struck me until now that that's Mom blatantly occupying the Victim role. The real issue in that scenario should have been: how were the kids doing, how were the kids feeling, did the kids have what they needed. Instead, the narrative centers on Mom's martyrdom and Mom's sacrifice.

As to D17 being in a position of responsibility- I think that is inevitable to some extent. She may be the only "adult" (emotionally) in the house and even she isn't emotionally fully grown up. At this point- the path for her is ahead- whatever her plans are to further her education or employment- the task now is for her to become an independent adult over the next few years. This doesn't happen all at once, it's a process-so however you can assist in this goal- either tuition or transportation - for her to get there would be helpful and also for D15 after that.

Yeah. It's interesting that SD17 was very resistant to learning to drive for many years. I wonder if she subconsciously associated it with one more task that would land on her. She is more open to learning to drive now but H and I have talked about being OK with giving the kids rides for a while (maybe not into their mid-20s though!) as a way to care about them and connect with them.

I should talk with H about talking with SD17 about the changes coming up when she turns 18, as at that point her portion of CS will go directly to her, not to Mom. It is possible that Mom will pressure her to live at Mom's house and/or to give her money somehow. SD17 may need a heads up that she will need to decide how she wants to navigate that.

[ForeverDad]

I can see how D17 may feel she has to avoid facing a dilemma.  One the one hand, once 18 she could leave her mother's home, as in "voting with her feet".  On the other hand, all these years she's been enmeshed with her mother, perhaps not so much now, but knowing her sister could be "left behind" would hinder her being bold with her choices.

How's her schooling?  How close to graduating?  Would she immediately want to start college?  A local college or university might be better than a remote one.

Some courts don't seem to react much when older but still minor teens decide to "vote with their feet".  I wonder whether younger D may choose that, though they've both been so immersed in supporting their mother that it may not happen until they're adults or later.  Maybe when transitioning to college?  And you have to be careful not to upset the still-fragile relationships.

Did you notice that some of us just skip the SD precise-ness and just use D?  You've been in the girls' lives so long that we don't bother with the details.  We understand though why you feel the need for that clarity.

[kells76]

I can see how D17 may feel she has to avoid facing a dilemma.  One the one hand, once 18 she could leave her mother's home, as in "voting with her feet".  On the other hand, all these years she's been enmeshed with her mother, perhaps not so much now, but knowing her sister could be "left behind" would hinder her being bold with her choices.

Yeah, you're reading it exactly right. Both kids were "trained" by Mom and Stepdad to emotionally caretake their brother, and then SD17 was additionally "trained" to emotionally caretake Mom (though she seems to be getting over that). But the wiring is still there, and SD17 is both "wired" to want to take care of SD15, and also, in a sense, is reading the room correctly -- who will pay attention to SD15's needs if SD17 isn't doing that? Not the adults.

How's her schooling?  How close to graduating?  Would she immediately want to start college?  A local college or university might be better than a remote one.

On track to graduate HS this March (for better or for worse, we're in a state with minimal HS grad requirements  ). She is interested in a local community college, which we have encouraged, though she has two friends who may go to college in Canada, so it wouldn't surprise me if she's considering that, too. She'll have to do the legwork and want it enough -- we are not positioned to fully finance beyond community college. Though we'd be fine if she went far away for college; I think it'd be good for her.

Some courts don't seem to react much when older but still minor teens decide to "vote with their feet".  I wonder whether younger D may choose that, though they've both been so immersed in supporting their mother that it may not happen until they're adults or later.  Maybe when transitioning to college?  And you have to be careful not to upset the still-fragile relationships.

I suspect SD15 won't "move to Dad's house" as a minor -- it'd be tacitly admitting that there are problems at Mom's, and SD15 has told me in the past that she struggles to acknowledge toxicity because she just wants everyone to be happy. And then yeah, she's been "trained" to be enmeshed and to accept Mom's blame of Dad at face value. Again, to start to question that would mean admitting that it's toxic at Mom's, which would be painful.

SD15 has also talked about going to college out of state, but I think that's less about escaping Mom and more about having friends already there. But the fact that she is open to living far away is hopefully a good thing.

Did you notice that some of us just skip the SD precise-ness and just use D?  You've been in the girls' lives so long that we don't bother with the details.  We understand though why you feel the need for that clarity.

Thank you  I don't want to pretend that I'm someone I'm not, yet at the same time, they're the only kids I've ever had.

...

SD17 had a talk with her mom last Friday, though I haven't heard any details. Last Wednesday was normal with her; we're together again this afternoon so I'll see if she brings it up.

Mom did answer the door when I dropped off some of SD15's things on Saturday -- that was unexpected, usually it's the kids meeting us at the door. IDK if this is "a new leaf" of Mom being involved again, maybe SD17 asked her to step up? Time will tell.

[Notwendy]

Any chance D17 could live with you and your H and attend community college?

I went far away to college- I needed to get distance from the dynamics at home. However, it was a bit hard to not have any family around- I was alone. Being parentified can have uneven development. Emotionally, in some ways, I was more mature than my same age peers and in some ways I had missed being a regular teen. I didn't feel like I fit in well. I lacked confidence.

I didn't have the choice of college closer to family. It was the best decision considering the situation but I could have benefitted from a bit of TLC from a caring family member. It might be that a year or two with you two and then finishing at a 4 year college is a good option. The option would be going farther away. It's her choice but something to consider if you and your H are OK with that.

[kells76]

Any chance D17 could live with you and your H and attend community college?

We'd be very OK with that, and H has offered that to her. He made the offer a couple of months ago, before she "came clean" to him and me about what was going on at Mom's house, and back at that time, when H offered, SD17 came back with "well, I have an offer to live with Mom's Sister, too". So, at least at that time, she felt more of a need to resist living with us. Maybe that's different now, or will be in the future.

I went far away to college- I needed to get distance from the dynamics at home. However, it was a bit hard to not have any family around- I was alone. Being parentified can have uneven development. Emotionally, in some ways, I was more mature than my same age peers and in some ways I had missed being a regular teen. I didn't feel like I fit in well. I lacked confidence.

That makes sense. It's interesting that SD17 is friends with this overseas friend, but also is connecting to this friend's mom (and younger sister). SD17 will send gifts to her friends' moms, so she doesn't have that "typical teen" posture of "I only want to interact with my friends, and we're going off to do our thing away from parents". It could just be politeness/courtesy, which would be great, and it could also be what you mention -- uneven development leading her to want connection to a more neutral/parental mother figure (I'm not completely neutral in the family structure, due to being married to H).

I didn't have the choice of college closer to family. It was the best decision considering the situation but I could have benefitted from a bit of TLC from a caring family member. It might be that a year or two with you two and then finishing at a 4 year college is a good option. The option would be going farther away. It's her choice but something to consider if you and your H are OK with that.

We plan to stay in the area until SD15 graduates from HS, and she is in 9th grade right now, so hopefully us being around an "additional" 3 years (past when SD17 is 18)  will give SD17 some options -- which we are OK with.

[livednlearned]

It's such a tricky high-wire act to listen and validate to build trust, and then also offer support to fill in the gaping holes about needs not being met by the BPD parent.

I've kind of been all over the map with my step kids.

With SD29, I initiated "fight club rules" because the suicidal ideation stuff with SD26 was eating me alive and the covert family dynamics around it were so unhealthy. I no longer cared about the consequences because the worst-case scenario was worse than wading in.

The downstream effect of secrecy was SD29 thinking she was handling her sister's SI on her own, when in fact H was actively showing up and parenting.

SD26 was kind of working both of them separately and H was honoring her request to not tell anyone what was going on.

What makes me feel so nuts about having a BPD co-parent, and the BPD family dynamics (like alienation garbage), is that it's easy to accidentally abdicate regular parenting duties and not even notice it's happening.

It's horrible that SD17's stress level could be so high it affects her cycle, and it's also horrible that she brushes stuff off (while being told she's wise beyond her years, which sounds like propaganda for take care of mom and the other kids).

When I talked to SD29 -- and granted she was already in her 20s and that detail probably matters -- is "this is messed up." I saw actual relief when I said it that bluntly.

I had to make my intention explicit "this is not your load to carry" -- these kids, my god. They don't really get a childhood, yet similar to what Notwendy said, their emotional development is arrested and uneven.

kells76, it could be that things really shift when SD17 goes away and gets even more perspective than she has seeing how the two households function.

I guess I'm sharing my experience because I do think that there will be a big developmental shift and it might then be appropriate to call it like it is.

[Notwendy]

Kells, I don't think it's possible for you to realize what a postive impact you have on these kids- because it's normal and natural to be a stable and loving parent so you don't think you are doing anything that would take much effort.

For a child ( and adult child) who does not have the experience of an emotionally healthy parent caring for them, it's huge. The "normal" things that mothers do- many of them, mine didn't do. Your SD's have a you, and that is huge. They may not realize it now due to their ages but as they mature, I think they probably will.

Now that I am an adult and understand BPD better, there are aspects of my mother's behavior that didn't make sense to me as a teen that I understand now. If your home is a place where these girls can be the teen agers they are, rather than their roles with their BPD mother, that is a good thing for them.