What to do about a weaponized "flying monkey"?

[EyesUp]

My uBPDxw is engaged to be married in Aug.

To date, her fiance has been cordial if we see each other during kid pickups/dropoffs.

I'm well aware that my X has told everyone that I'm a narcissist along with a lot of disparaging and generally false statements.  I've generally ignored it and remained out of the fray.

This week, the fiance became confrontational - first in person, and later in email.

It's clear that he's highly energized in the rescuer position of the Karpman triangle.

I'm somewhat taken aback, as a more measured, rational approach would be for both of us to normalize a relationship ahead of the marriage - if only for the benefit of the kids.  Instead, it's clear that he's amped up and completely in thrall with my X's narrative of abuse and victimization - and apparently ready to file motions to change the parenting plan, etc.

I know I need to go back and re-read (again) how to escape the drama triangle. 

In the meantime, I'd be glad to hear from anyone who's been in this situation. Yikes, it never ends.

[ChooseHappiness]

This week, the fiance became confrontational - first in person, and later in email.

It's clear that he's highly energized in the rescuer position of the Karpman triangle.

I'm somewhat taken aback, as a more measured, rational approach would be for both of us to normalize a relationship ahead of the marriage - if only for the benefit of the kids.  Instead, it's clear that he's amped up and completely in thrall with my X's narrative of abuse and victimization - and apparently ready to file motions to change the parenting plan, etc.

Just verbally confrontational or physical as well?

Make sure you are documenting everything that happens, and you may want to record your interactions as well. I know the courts often don't like people recording each other, but the police do if it helps them figure out who is an aggressor, who is fabricating allegations, etc.

If she files motions to change the parenting plan, I imagine she would need a reason to do so and you would have a chance to dispute any false allegations. I don't think he would be able to change the parenting plans.

How old are the kids? In many areas, once they are past 12 years old the courts will generally respect their wishes about where they want to be.

It would be nice to have a normalized relationship with the ex and her fiancé, but I suspect such a thing is not possible when it comes to anyone with BPD. I'm not sure about the drama triangle stuff, but I would avoid engaging wherever possible - don't respond to the emails, remain courteous, etc. If this winds up in court, you want to look like the reasonable one. Also, if you don't respond, his white knight syndrome or whatever is motivating him may eventually fade. It's hard to pick a fight with someone who ignores you. And if you remain calm and rational, he may eventually come to realize she is making things up about you.

[jaded7]

My uBPDxw is engaged to be married in Aug.

To date, her fiance has been cordial if we see each other during kid pickups/dropoffs.

I'm well aware that my X has told everyone that I'm a narcissist along with a lot of disparaging and generally false statements.  I've generally ignored it and remained out of the fray.

This week, the fiance became confrontational - first in person, and later in email.

It's clear that he's highly energized in the rescuer position of the Karpman triangle.

I'm somewhat taken aback, as a more measured, rational approach would be for both of us to normalize a relationship ahead of the marriage - if only for the benefit of the kids.  Instead, it's clear that he's amped up and completely in thrall with my X's narrative of abuse and victimization - and apparently ready to file motions to change the parenting plan, etc.

I know I need to go back and re-read (again) how to escape the drama triangle. 

In the meantime, I'd be glad to hear from anyone who's been in this situation. Yikes, it never ends.

A friend of mine is in the same position. The new husband has bought her story fully, and he is quite active in the chaos between him and his ex, the child care and parenting time chaos she manufactures, and the demonization of him. I tell him repeatedly that 'No' is a complete sentence.

The desire to 'normalize' the relationship is a potential problem here. My friend does the same thing, he wants a normal relationship, and at some level he wants his exw to 'like' him, which leads him into giving into to her constantly shifting demands and schedule changes, and guilting and gaslighting.

[EyesUp]

Just verbally confrontational or physical as well?

Make sure you are documenting everything that happens, and you may want to record your interactions as well. I know the courts often don't like people recording each other, but the police do if it helps them figure out who is an aggressor, who is fabricating allegations, etc.

If she files motions to change the parenting plan, I imagine she would need a reason to do so and you would have a chance to dispute any false allegations. I don't think he would be able to change the parenting plans.

How old are the kids? In many areas, once they are past 12 years old the courts will generally respect their wishes about where they want to be.

It would be nice to have a normalized relationship with the ex and her fiancé, but I suspect such a thing is not possible when it comes to anyone with BPD. I'm not sure about the drama triangle stuff, but I would avoid engaging wherever possible - don't respond to the emails, remain courteous, etc. If this winds up in court, you want to look like the reasonable one. Also, if you don't respond, his white knight syndrome or whatever is motivating him may eventually fade. It's hard to pick a fight with someone who ignores you. And if you remain calm and rational, he may eventually come to realize she is making things up about you.

All good advice, thanks.

My kids are D16, D13, and D9. 

D16 routinely asks her mom to modify the schedule, and mom always gives permission without communicating with me.  Then D16 will send me a text along the lines of "I'm going to mom's" or "mom says it's ok to go to her house."

Now my uBPDxw and her fiance accuse me of failing to honor the parenting plan...   it's a rope-a-dope setup.   In parallel, D13 and D9 follow the regular schedule without any issue, although D16 has started to prompt D13 to follow.

Obviously I have no legal relationship with the fiance - however his verbal escalations and written follow include insults, taunts, threats... 

I've been recording almost 24/7 for years, as I've come to expect false accusations from my uBPDxw, and more recently from D16. 

Nothing physical with the fiance at this point, and I take care to avoid that anyway.

[EyesUp]

A friend of mine is in the same position. The new husband has bought her story fully, and he is quite active in the chaos between him and his ex, the child care and parenting time chaos she manufactures, and the demonization of him. I tell him repeatedly that 'No' is a complete sentence.

The desire to 'normalize' the relationship is a potential problem here. My friend does the same thing, he wants a normal relationship, and at some level he wants his exw to 'like' him, which leads him into giving into to her constantly shifting demands and schedule changes, and guilting and gaslighting.

Thanks, good point re: normalizing things.  I'm an eternal optimist and just wish we could all act like adults.  I probably need to let that go.

[ChooseHappiness]

I've been recording almost 24/7 for years, as I've come to expect false accusations from my uBPDxw, and more recently from D16. 

Why the false accusations from D16? Does she believe the mom's allegations? Or is she possibly BPD herself?

I have a friend whose ex is quite likely NPD, and he poisoned the kids' minds for years about her. They really favoured him - until one of them realized he'd been lying the whole time. Now they mostly spend time with my friend and maintain a minimal relationship with the NPD dad.

So if your ex is poisoning your kids' minds with false allegations, they may figure it out at some point.

As for the fiancé, make sure you are keeping all his taunts and threats. It's important to have a record of harassment if you have to go to court, or if someone makes allegations to your employer, etc.

And yes, in regards to the other comments about normalizing relations between you, I would let that go. As long as you try to do that, you are still enmeshed with her and her drama in some form, and she will lash out because you're handy. My xwBPD would obsess over every imagined slight from her family members and friends and regularly clash with them until they all went no contact with her one after another. Now she rarely thinks of them at all and is rage obsessed with me instead. Once we have the divorce finalized and I'm essentially no contact with her, that will fade, too, and she'll move on to the next target. Because there always has to be a target. Move on and live your own life. You'll be much happier in the long run.

[EyesUp]

Why the false accusations from D16? Does she believe the mom's allegations? Or is she possibly BPD herself?

I have a friend whose ex is quite likely NPD, and he poisoned the kids' minds for years about her. They really favoured him - until one of them realized he'd been lying the whole time. Now they mostly spend time with my friend and maintain a minimal relationship with the NPD dad.

So if your ex is poisoning your kids' minds with false allegations, they may figure it out at some point.

Yes, uBPDxw favors D16 and has been amping up an alienation campaign for the past ~2 years and recently tipped her hand that she's ready to go to work on D13, too.

I've got some solid documentation that could be presented in a counter-motion - if she follows through on her threat to file.  The wild card is what happens if the judge polls the kids.
D16 will choose mom, D13 might follow, and D9 would get sucked into a nasty situation...   I'd prefer to avoid all of that, but if history has taught me anything with my X, it's prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

[kells76]

This week, the fiance became confrontational - first in person, and later in email.

It's clear that he's highly energized in the rescuer position of the Karpman triangle.

I'm somewhat taken aback, as a more measured, rational approach would be for both of us to normalize a relationship ahead of the marriage - if only for the benefit of the kids.  Instead, it's clear that he's amped up and completely in thrall with my X's narrative of abuse and victimization - and apparently ready to file motions to change the parenting plan, etc.

Is he saying he is ready to file motions? Or is he saying that she is?

Now my uBPDxw and her fiance accuse me of failing to honor the parenting plan...   it's a rope-a-dope setup.   In parallel, D13 and D9 follow the regular schedule without any issue, although D16 has started to prompt D13 to follow.

I wonder what would happen if you replied something like "I am glad we agree to follow the parenting plan as written. I will let the kids know that's the plan per your suggestion" or something. Not sure if I'd 100% recommend that but if she is saying in an email "we should follow the PP" then that's something.

it's clear that he's amped up and completely in thrall with my X's narrative of abuse and victimization

I'd be glad to hear from anyone who's been in this situation.

 

yes, me here, relating to where you're at.

My approach was BIFF with Stepdad, minimal engagement, small talk on safe topics (weather/movies) if the kids were there. Never meet with him alone. Don't feel obligated to respond to any/all emails. If you respond to his email, cc Mom on it. Or, just reply to Mom. You and Mom are the parents.

When I taught SD18 high school algebra during Covid (long story), I guess I was not totally nice in how I emailed -- I left him out. I only emailed updates/grades to Mom and H because they are the parents. Any info that Mom wanted to share with Stepdad she could do herself.

He may toss out some bait, knowingly or not; work on yourself not to take it. Stepdad would call H's kids his own kids ("my daughters"), in front of H. Know that this stuff might happen and keep your kids' wellbeing in mind as you decline to let him rile you up.

Overall my top thought is that he has no standing to file motions etc, so don't engage with that.

[EyesUp]

Is he saying he is ready to file motions? Or is he saying that she is?


He's saying "we" and acting as my X's proxy.

There's some distortion in his words.  

e.g., he refers to me violating "court orders"... but there are no orders. It was ultimately an uncontested divorce.  We have a "court approved" agreement, and the distinction is more than semantic - but this is the language that my uBPDxw uses, and so now he uses it.

The violation he's referring to involved D16 declining to transition to me last week. Of course mom unilaterally gives D16 the go ahead to transition to her early almost every week - but this was the first time D16 told me she would not come to my house. I raised this with her mom, but made the mistake of doing it on the phone instead of via email.  Mom said "D16 is always welcome here" - Now mom and her fiance accuse me of unilaterally changing the parenting plan, propose that I pay $175/night for any time they take the kids on my time, and threaten to file a motion to change the parenting schedule so that they have the kids majority time - if I pay.

The last point is telling, but it also comes packaged with a lot of insults - that I don't keep my word, have no integrity, etc etc.  The gist is:  It's not a reasonable or rational approach for anyone to take if the goal is alignment and agreement.  It's intended to be a provocation.  I doubt a judge will ever take the time to read these emails - and I'm increasingly concerned that we'll end up in front of a judge.  Any responses from me are 100% to the point and courteous and solution focused.

Now the kids are all away at camp for a month.  uBPDxw is getting married in just over a month - I'd think she'd have better things to think about.

Finally, the situation with D16 is rough, but her T recently asked me if I think mom might be a covert narc... answer:  maybe!

[EyesUp]

Part of our communication is quarterly expense reconcilliation.  Just got this somewhat amazing message from my uBPDxw re: additional expenses to add to the list she previously shared:

"$875 parenting fee for 5 days... This list is not exhaustive. I am also not including books for camp, clothes, more stamps, more socks and underwear, wear and tear on MY towels and sheets, all costs associated with D16's birthday celebration with her friends, etc etc etc."

We both provide essentials for the kids.  I let the kids take whatever they want to mom's, she seems to tell the kids to leave everything at her house.  I try not to raise it unless it's something specific one of the kids needs for school or extra curriculars.

The "parenting fee" is amazing, and wear and tear on towels and sheets is a bit over the top...   For clarity, there is no parenting fee (!) in our agreement, and I don't think many judges would approve this concept. 

I've known her for almost 30 years, and this stuff still surprises me. 

I want to ignore it, but we need to finish the reconciliation and I don't want to set a precedent to "let it slide."

[Cluster Beeline]

You may have more shared interests with her fiancé than you imagine. I know many people get uncomfortable hearing this but fairly often, men do not appreciate raising another man's children. Obviously he has accepted this up to a certain point, but it may be that he is policing the agreement strictly. He may be unaware that your ex is the one who is undermining the agreement by allowing/encouraging your daughter to break its terms.

You and he both want the agreement strictly followed while your ex loves the triangulation tension created by breaking the agreement.

You should clearly communicate that, as always, you insist on the agreement being followed strictly and that it is crucial that both sides reinforce this to all the children. For the expenses you may have to become strict as well, although I can understand how petty this feels.

I don't know how the finances work with your ex and fiancé but it may be that he is complaining about spending money on her children and pressuring her to get you to pay more. The only defense to this is strict accounting and following the agreement to the letter. 

[jaded7]

Part of our communication is quarterly expense reconcilliation.  Just got this somewhat amazing message from my uBPDxw re: additional expenses to add to the list she previously shared:

"$875 parenting fee for 5 days... This list is not exhaustive. I am also not including books for camp, clothes, more stamps, more socks and underwear, wear and tear on MY towels and sheets, all costs associated with D16's birthday celebration with her friends, etc etc etc."

We both provide essentials for the kids.  I let the kids take whatever they want to mom's, she seems to tell the kids to leave everything at her house.  I try not to raise it unless it's something specific one of the kids needs for school or extra curriculars.

The "parenting fee" is amazing, and wear and tear on towels and sheets is a bit over the top...   For clarity, there is no parenting fee (!) in our agreement, and I don't think many judges would approve this concept. 

I've known her for almost 30 years, and this stuff still surprises me. 

I want to ignore it, but we need to finish the reconciliation and I don't want to set a precedent to "let it slide."

This is the kind of 'escalation' in demands my friend I mentioned above experiences all the time. Shifting demands, upping the
'requirements' of him, denying what was said, acting like an agreement doesn't exist.

He gives in all the time due to his codependent nature, just wanting to get along. And she just pushes and pushes and pushes.

Wear and tear on the towels! That's almost laughable. And parenting fee??? Oh my gosh.

As I've explained to my friend, his ex just pushes the envelope all the time, and then if he does say no he will then 'compromise', which is always him giving up or giving in to some extent, and just like that the landscape is shifted to a new normal, which then becomes the 'agreement', and slowly but surely they move away from the plan and he is more and more out of sorts.

The triangulation angle Cluster Beeline brings up makes sense to me. She gets supply watching him 'defend' her and put you down, mess with you. It's a win-win for her.

Cluster Beeline makes a good point about how much the fiance REALLY understands this all. And anyway, he's a guy who is marrying a cluster B woman, so therefore he has issues himself and is prone to her manipulations and wants to defend her. I've told this very thing to my friend.....he married a very problematic woman, and was very open to her manipulations and dishonesty.

[PeteWitsend]

I had one negative interaction with BPDxw's BF. 

I decided I'd just keep the voice recorder on for future ones.  He never did it again, and the first time I saw him after that, he ran into the house and avoided me. 

According to my daughter, they (BF and BPDxw) fight all the time, and her extended family called CPS on him, so I think that took some of the "wind out of their sails" so to speak when it came to uniting against me. 

Plus, given the way BPDxw would triangulate at the drop of a hat with whoever she can against whoever she's fighting against in that moment, I think that's caused her occasional lapses into seeing me as a potential rescuer, possibly explaining times she reached out asking for us to be cordial and schedule activities together (!!!!)

I ignored her each time.  No interest in getting dragged into her chaos again.

Whenever I have to deal with them, I try to adopt a very professional tone, knowing that if the communications end up in court, how everything would look.