Is it common for enough never being enough for a pwBPD?

[Rowdy]

This is something my ex’s sister has said repeatedly about her, enough is never enough, she is never happy with what she has got.

Now this statement is true for pretty much every aspect of her life. From a relationship point of view, even though we would go out to restaurants quite often, it was never often enough. Not enough holidays. Not enough of me telling her I loved her, even though I’d tell her every day, or that she didn’t feel loved enough.

Not just the relationship. Businesses’ as well. She opened one business, but that wasn’t enough so she wanted another branch of that business. When a shop next door to the first business became vacant, she wanted that as well to open a completely different business. And then a local pub became vacant, she had ideas about taking that on too until I put my foot down.

Then there is stuff. We had a car, a saloon car. A fast car because she likes the thrill of driving fast. Because we have dogs, that wasn’t enough so we needed an estate car (or station wagon for you folks in the US) to carry the dogs in. And because over here we have a weeks sunshine a year, she needed a convertible as well. She also had another convertible classic car I bought her because she thought she deserved it. Not just cars, furniture as well. We lived, I live, in a small two bed semi. We had, I think, about six couches. Not enough room for them so three were in storage but still. I even had to build two extensions on our property just because the amount of furniture she would buy meant we didn’t have the room for it.

Food. The amount of food she would buy and end up throwing away, with refuse bins overflowing every week.

But the reason I’m posting this is the dogs. We have three. The last one we got about 3 months before we split up, but in those three months she was still looking online at adverts for puppies.
We were offered that puppies sister as well but I again put my foot down and said no, which is a good thing as that puppy ended up dying within a year from a heart condition. She rented a house for a year post breakup, and we shared looking after the dogs so we would each have them for half of the week. Then she moved in with her boyfriend, but would still come round three or four times a week to take them out. Then, last December she went about a month without seeing them at all. Since then she has seen them once a week for the last couple of weeks. I’d started to wonder why, as they were one of the most important things in her life. Yesterday I bumped into my brother in law (ex’s sisters husband) and he invited me round for coffee. It cropped up during conversation that she has now gone out and got two more puppies.

So is this behaviour common? And what drives it?

[Under The Bridge]

So is this behaviour common? And what drives it?

Very common.. and probably one of the main symptoms of BPD.

It all comes down to identity and security - or rather, their lack of it. They don't know who they are and can change their wants and needs literally by the minute, as their emotions dictate. We non-BPD's have some sense of who we are and what we want from life - yes, sometimes we can also change our minds and maybe make the odd rash decision but by and large we have it under control, have a plan and can follow it, whereas the BPD can't.

Hence nothing ever being enough for them, be that love.. ambition.. life goals, etc.  They'll flick from idea to idea constantly, They want things then promptly discard them, they make grand plans which fall apart very quickly as their mood changes.  In short, nothing - and nobody - is ever enough to satisfy them or make them feel secure.  Bit like someone with a hobby who flicks from one project to the next without ever completing anything.

They're constantly hunting for something they can never have and be content with. Massively frustrating for the non-BPD partner.

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother had this behavior. I think it is common with BPD.

My own explanation for this is that pwBPD don't perceive their sense of discomfort as coming from themselves- an internal sense of discomfort. They project it on to something external- from victim perspective, someone or something else is the reason for it. They would also see something external as the solution. Their perceived "need" for this is intense, persistant, they have to have it because they believe that will solve their internal feelings- either their poor self image, or emotional distress, or need for affirmation.

However, the external "need" isn't enough because it isn't the actual solution. They may feel a sense of temporary relief but then the focus becomes something else they need. The needs may not make sense to us as the reason given for them isn't the actual reason. It doesn't make logical sense that someone who already has a car would "need" another one, but the need is emotionally based and emotions aren't logical.

My impression about Rowdy's ex and the puppies is that joint ownership of the puppies met an emotional need in the relationship. Maybe a way to make it feel more secure. Now that she's in a relationship with someone else- they have new puppies. The other dogs no longer meet this need for her.

It's not about the object or the puppies themselves, it's about what meets a need and if it doesn't meet a need, interest in it wanes.

[Rowdy]

My impression about Rowdy's ex and the puppies is that joint ownership of the puppies met an emotional need in the relationship. Maybe a way to make it feel more secure. Now that she's in a relationship with someone else- they have new puppies. The other dogs no longer meet this need for her.

It's not about the object or the puppies themselves, it's about what meets a need and if it doesn't meet a need, interest in it wanes.

Maybe you are right. However she monkey branched and was in the relationship with her boyfriend straight after our breakup. Whether empty nest syndrome played a part, as she likes to mother children. She would look after other people’s children as well as our own quite often when they were growing up and even wanted to adopt a friends child that was being abused. And now the relationship she is in her partner has a son the same age as our youngest but has autism, and a younger child that was 14 years old when she started that relationship (the father would leave the 14 year old at home alone over night while he stayed at my ex’s house) so I guess the amount of children can be included in the enough not being enough too.

I had a little chat with my son last night, as I’ve mentioned in my other thread the problems he had the other week and has gone away this morning for a few days abroad with his mum.

The first Christmas we had split up, she asked my son if he wanted her to wrap the Christmas presents he had bought. He told her he wanted her to, but she completely ignored them but wrapped all his kids presents up instead, which kind of relates to your last comment. I did read one of your posts recently about your mother befriending a girl a similar age to you and the way that made you feel which I guess is quite similar.

So she was supposed to go away with her boyfriend but he apparently couldn’t go so she asked our son instead. What he did say last night was that he wasn’t sure they are getting on too well and she doesn’t seem happy. She has told me in the past that his youngest son is a little [very strong expletive] and told her sister fairly recently that both his kids do her f’ing head in.
However, my son gave his youngest son a lift recently and said he seems very downbeat but a good kid. He has given up playing sports and doesn’t want to do anything any more. I asked him how he felt when he knew my ex and I were suffering from drug addiction, and he felt the same way, depressed and neglected but since splitting up with my wife we have a far better relationship, I am living a far healthier life and he is much better off living with me instead of his mother.

My fear is I am certain they are both addicted still and it is now starting to have a detrimental effect on his kids. It is them I feel most sorry for as I’m afraid they are pawns in her, or their mental illness.

[Notwendy]

BPD affects all relationships, and it affects the most intimate ones the most. Spouses and children tend to be the closest ones. Grandchildren are a step away from this closeness, and so your ex may be more attentive to them.

In this context, it would be easier for a pwBPD to maintain a more superficial relationship with people they are less close to. However, if that relationship gets closer, there may be more issues. Eventually the pwBPD may discard the relationship or the other person chooses to not continue it.

The "monkey branching" would fit this concept. You were the spouse, the other man is is a new person, she knew less about him, and so could "paint him white". Now that their relationship is progressing, the "white paint" seems to be chipping.

I would also feel empathy for the new man's children. It would be up to him to protect them.

I think one of the best things you did for your children was to become clean and sober. You've given them a much healthier father and role model by taking care of yourself.

 

[Rowdy]

Makes sense and something I’ve felt since the breakup, even before knowing about bpd.

She would actually single out three people in particular before the breakup. She pointed her finger at me, her sister and her business partner. We are the three people probably closest to her, and she would say that we were all the problem.

I got discarded for someone else, and her sister used to work for her full time, and left because she felt the ship was sinking, so doesn’t have anywhere near as much contact or interaction with her as she used to. That leaves her business partner, that has contacted me on several occasions distressed and upset by my ex’s treatment of her.

She has put herself in the situation now where I believe she is going to end up feeling trapped. I’m sure she will be trying to regulate her behaviour around the boyfriend because if he decides to kick her out she will be homeless, but I can not see her being able to sustain it.

To be honest I think he is too weak, vulnerable and self centred to put his children first, and to realise both of their toxic behaviour is having a detrimental effect on his children.

[Notwendy]

While it is natural to feel that the other guy is getting the better part of her, it's not sustainable. I also feel empathy for any child in this situation, and would be concerned too but but he's the parent, and it would be up to him to do something.

For you,  a decision is what you would do if she rebounds to you. If the new man is painted black you may be painted white again. From these boards, I have seen that recycling back to the former relationship is also common. However, you know more now than you did.

While you were able to provide a lot, when there's "not enough", no amount of money or material items might be "enough". My father was able to provide a lot of BPD mother's wishes but he was not infinitely wealthy. There was resulting financial stresses for him, and also financial damage from this kind of spending.

Being divorced, other than court mandated payments to your ex if they are required, you have control of your assets and how they are managed. If you remarry your ex, you may not have that kind of control or choice if you are meeting your wife's "needs" for excessive items.

[Rowdy]

We are not divorced so still married at the moment.

I’m aware I could well be the target of an attempted rebound. To be honest as we are still married and she is still named on our tenancy I wouldn’t be surprised as it would be the most convenient way out for her, but I gave her firm boundaries post breakup that she wouldn’t be coming back unless she had spent at least 6 months on her own and stopped all contact with the man she is currently with. That was before I even knew anything about bpd so those boundaries would now include her having to get therapy but I am in another relationship now anyway.

Which leads to another question. If she were to attempt a reconciliation, do I tell my girlfriend. I am, on the whole, happy with my current relationship. There are however a couple of things that concern me about this relationship so I feel that if my ex did try to return, mentioning it might come across as some form of triangulation.

[Notwendy]

I think I can comment on BPD behaviors and dynamics, after seeing my parents' relationship, and my own experience with a BPD mother, but your situation- I don't have experience with, so I don't feel I could advise with that. I think other posters probably have, so hopefully they will help with that.

[Pook075]

Which leads to another question. If she were to attempt a reconciliation, do I tell my girlfriend. I am, on the whole, happy with my current relationship. There are however a couple of things that concern me about this relationship so I feel that if my ex did try to return, mentioning it might come across as some form of triangulation.

Your current girlfriend knows that you're still married, right?  Even if the marriage is just a technicality, hopefully the girlfriend knows and understands the situation.

If I were in your shoes, and my ex suddenly wanted to get back together, I would not tell my current partner unless I was actually considering it.  I'm re-married so it's not the same thing, but you might feel like that's still an option for you.  And if so, that's fine.  There's no reason to unnecessarily hurt your current partner unless you were actually thinking about giving the marriage another shot.

[Rowdy]

Yes Pook she is fully aware of the situation. I met her about 3 months after the breakup as she works behind the bar I go in, instantly had chemistry and would find myself there with just the two of us at the end of the evening talking endlessly about everything. Spent another 14 months before we started our relationship together.

[Pook075]

Yes Pook she is fully aware of the situation. I met her about 3 months after the breakup as she works behind the bar I go in, instantly had chemistry and would find myself there with just the two of us at the end of the evening talking endlessly about everything. Spent another 14 months before we started our relationship together.

That sounds great- I'm glad it's working!

Yeah, I wouldn't tell her your ex's intentions if you're not leaning in that direction.  It's unfair to her and there's nothing to gain.

I think our brains are trained to think "What would my BPD person want?" instead of "What do I want?"  The latter is much healthier since it's what actually matters.

[Rowdy]

Good advice.

Thanks Pook that gives me clarity

You are right, it’s easy to still get caught up in what is best for pwBPD. As I know the situation she is in is not healthy for her, and it isn’t healthy for his kids either, but that isn’t my problem and would only be a saviour complex if I thought it was.

I very much doubt she would try to re connect anyway, she is too stubborn and would rather stay in a toxic relationship than have any opportunity for me to turn around and say I told you so.

[Pook075]

Good advice.

Thanks Pook that gives me clarity

You are right, it’s easy to still get caught up in what is best for pwBPD. As I know the situation she is in is not healthy for her, and it isn’t healthy for his kids either, but that isn’t my problem and would only be a saviour complex if I thought it was.

I very much doubt she would try to re connect anyway, she is too stubborn and would rather stay in a toxic relationship than have any opportunity for me to turn around and say I told you so.

Yup, I completely agree.  The entire goal with BPDs is for their self-made environments to be tough enough where they'll think, "Huh, maybe I need a change.  And maybe that change needs to come from within..."

So by not saving her, by not making things easier, by not being the hero every time she messes up, it's actually getting her just a little bit closer to realizing the obvious to everyone else around her.

I hope that helps and if it's any consolation, I still do the same thing in my head all the time.  And I hate admitting that!

[PeteWitsend]

...

If I were in your shoes, and my ex suddenly wanted to get back together, I would not tell my current partner unless I was actually considering it.  I'm re-married so it's not the same thing, but you might feel like that's still an option for you.  And if so, that's fine.  There's no reason to unnecessarily hurt your current partner unless you were actually thinking about giving the marriage another shot.

I agree with this.  I don't think it's right to tell your partner about other potential relationships you could be in, even if they're with an ex.  And that goes both ways.  If I had a GF who was always telling me about other guys who were expressing interest in her or have... or worse: that she herself was interested in, my response now would be: "Go be with them then.  Why are you telling me?"

You want to trust your partner & know they're committed to you, and if they're telling you about every guy who flirted with them on the street, asked them out, etc. you start to wonder.  The ideal standard should be "We both shut down any third party interest, and we don't need to bring it up  because it means nothing."

What's the otherwise practical result of telling your partner "Hey, I'm thinking about my ex" or  "Thinking of getting back together with my ex"?  Just seeing how they'd react?  That's not fair to them.  They'd be justified in looking for an out to protect themselves for getting blindsided later.

[Rowdy]

What's the otherwise practical result of telling your partner "Hey, I'm thinking about my ex" or  "Thinking of getting back together with my ex"?  Just seeing how they'd react?  That's not fair to them.  They'd be justified in looking for an out to protect themselves for getting blindsided later.

No that wouldn’t be the reason for telling her if that were to happen. The reason I might think about telling her would be for transparency. There are also some behaviours on her part that I see as a potential problem but this may well just be me over thinking because I’ve been in a relationship with someone displaying borderline traits. I’ve spoken about the fact I can message her and not get a response for a couple of hours yet she is active online so it appears she is ignoring me, and that has improved since I mentioned it, but what I haven’t spoken to her about because I think I may be over reacting is the amount of time her ex, the father of her son, spends around her house considering they split up 7 years ago. So mentioning my wife trying to re connect might nudge her into being a bit more committed but then is that on the edge of being triangulation.

[Rowdy]

Yup, I completely agree.  The entire goal with BPDs is for their self-made environments to be tough enough where they'll think, "Huh, maybe I need a change.  And maybe that change needs to come from within..."

So by not saving her, by not making things easier, by not being the hero every time she messes up, it's actually getting her just a little bit closer to realizing the obvious to everyone else around her.

I hope that helps and if it's any consolation, I still do the same thing in my head all the time.  And I hate admitting that!

Yes, I read an excellent post on quora the other day on this subject, saying in order to help you must facilitate. The poster gave the example of his brother being an alcoholic that had lost his wife, lost his job, lost his home and was living in his truck. He could try and persuade him to go to AA meetings, and offer him a place to stay, but this wouldn’t help because he knew he would just go back to drinking two bottles of vodka a day. So he would wait until his brother got to the point that he got in contact himself and asked for a place to stay. And after he left he then waited for his brother to contact him again saying that he needs to change and needs to get help, so he then offered him information on AA meetings and offered him a lift to get there.

It is then his brother that is initiating his own recovering, while he is facilitating the help required for him to do so.

[PeteWitsend]

No that wouldn’t be the reason for telling her if that were to happen. The reason I might think about telling her would be for transparency. There are also some behaviours on her part that I see as a potential problem but this may well just be me over thinking because I’ve been in a relationship with someone displaying borderline traits. I’ve spoken about the fact I can message her and not get a response for a couple of hours yet she is active online so it appears she is ignoring me, and that has improved since I mentioned it, but what I haven’t spoken to her about because I think I may be over reacting is the amount of time her ex, the father of her son, spends around her house considering they split up 7 years ago. So mentioning my wife trying to re connect might nudge her into being a bit more committed but then is that on the edge of being triangulation.

I see.

Well, my takeaway from having been married to a likely pwBPD and a later relationship with someone who had different but also possible strong BPD-traits is that I need to be more guarded against behaving like "they" do, so I if I find myself thinking of a way to get something indirectly, I try to re-phrase it so I'm asking directly.  I don't want to think that they rubbed off on me! 

I suppose you should just say "It bothers me that your ex is around here as much as he is," and then propose what you think is fair and how you two together could make that happen.  Dragging your ex- into the equation is, if not triangulation, then definitely a bit manipulative. 

[Rowdy]

I doubt my ex would try to come back anyway, it’s just something my youngest son said the other day. She was supposed to go away with her boyfriend but apparently he couldn’t go so she asked our son to go. He said the reason given was the puppies they have got, and said she didn’t want his son looking after them. My son pointed out that before we split up and for  a while after, she would get his son to come round and look after them while we were at work, and that excuse didn’t make sense, and believes his mum and her boyfriend are not getting on too well.

I spoke with my eldest earlier today, and he said the reason she gave for leaving me for the boyfriend was apparently because he could look after her financially better than I could. He also said she would make a mess up and say it doesn’t matter he will pay for that. So pretty toxic relationship.

[Notwendy]

Having read more of your posts on this, it may help if I hypothetically put myself in your GF's situation. This is guessing but I think I can put some perspective on your concern.

A red flag can be about the person, or the situation, or the timing. Maybe better in terms of stop signs, red lights, or yellow lights here.

Even if you are only married legally, and there's no relationship left- you are still married. This means there's some unfinished business.

For some women, a married man is a red light- stop, turn around. In this situation, it appears the two of you took this slow and the relationship evolved but your being married, still means you are not fully available. That some time has passed and you are not divorced, would raise the question of why? So a question from someone interested in you could be-

Why are you still married? and "If your spouse wanted to reconcile, would you go back to her?".

Even if a person is divorced, they may have unfinished emotional work to do, and if so, that person isn't fully emotionally available. Another question would be "are you still working out your own emotions about the relationship splitting up?" There's no timeline for this. If you still do, then you aren't fully emotionally available for a committed relationship.

Most adults know that not every relationship will go to marriage. However, I think someone would want to know that commitment is a possible outcome before becoming very emotionally invested and committed to that person. At the moment, with you being legally married- even if only legally, a full commitment isn't possible.

It seems your concern with your current GF is that she isn't as available to you or as committed to you as you wish she was. You want her to reply to your texts sooner. You want her to spend less time with her child's father.
 
At the moment though, she's still the "other woman". (I hope you have told her you are married). This is not a desirable situation and also has a stigma to it. This is a reason for her to not be fully invested.

Her main priority is her child. That her ex is over a lot may be their parenting agreement. She's probably not going to compromise her child's time with his father or the child's well being on the basis of a dating relationship.

If this is a red flag for you, or an undesirable situation for you, this is something to consider if you want to continue your relationship with her.

IMHO, if you want someone to commit to you, to make you their priority person, then you would need to also be fully available to do that with them too. You would also need to choose someone who is able to do that with you. At the moment, you aren't- either legally, emotionally or both. It may take you some additional time to get there- and that's OK if you need it.

It's possible that there aren't "red flags" with either of you as people but that there are red lights, stop signs, or at least yellow lights in your situations. Maybe even a U turn one. It may help to think about where you are at in the possible commitment process.

[Rowdy]

Thank you NotWendy for your thought provoking reply.

To answer your questions, yes she knows I’m still married, and she knows I am committed to her. As I said, we have talked a lot prior to starting our relationship and she knows exactly how I have been treated. She has herself been in a relationship with a pwBPD and it left her with anxiety so understands, to an extent, how damaging those relationships can be.

I’m not so worried about her ex. I’ve not met him but I can understand he is a good father and has moved back in his parents house so it’s easier for him to go to my gf’s to see him.
I am giving her son driving lessons as his father doesn’t drive.

It is not so much that I want her to reply to my texts sooner, it is more the fact that I can at times see she has been online after I’ve messaged and then wait for some time for a reply, but this can annoy her if her siblings do the same thing.

The good thing is we have spoken about and resolved these issues. She has some family issues with her parents and siblings that overwhelm her and makes her shut down which has been a big part of the problem as she has said her learned behaviour has been to sweep things under the carpet and not talk about things but now understands this only creates more problems. It is much easier to have a grown up conversation without treading on eggshells and ending up in a circular argument with her.

Why am I still married. I am still finding my feet financially. The situation my wife left me in means I am having to build up my business while taking on all financial responsibilities so, at the moment would struggle with the added costs of going through a divorce. As I mentioned earlier, it has come to light she left me for financial reasons, using her new bf to pay for everything and I am still getting letters and emails every month for payments that she has missed for things she is responsible for. Would I go back to her if she wanted to reconcile…… I would have to be stark raving mad.