What's the use of calling it abuse?

[hotchip]

For people who know me, it's quite obvious that in many situations, the opinion I have about what should happen is very clear. And maybe that might be experienced as compulsion for some people. For example, there was a situation when uBPDx was going to borrow money from his sister that I believed had been acquired through unethical means, and I said that I thought this was unethical, but it was his choice whether to take it (in the end, he did not). Maybe this was experienced as control and isolation?

[hotchip]

The correct answer to all of this is, 'who cares?' I am not perfect, but even if I have done something bad, uBPDx is simply not a reliable narrator. His thinking is distorted and impossible and cannot be used to deduce the reality of what has happened. My focus should be on stabilising myself so I am not caught in these swirls of delusion, as NotWendy says.

[hotchip]

He actually made a direct threat, saying, 'if you tell me to leave, i'm going to tell everyone that you've been controlling me'. !!!!

[Notwendy]

This may be about your own boundaries. Boundaries are about knowing what is us, what isn't us. I think for some of us who are empathetic, we do consider what others say about us, but some people are disordered.

Borderline is named for being on the border of what was known as neurosis and psychosis. Someone who is fully psychotic is more obvious, but for pwBPD- feelings can feel like facts. So if they feel something - they may in the moment believe it's true, even if it's not true.

I know someone who sadly aquired schitzophrenia. If she says something like a person is shooting radio waves at her, I know that isn't true, and her saying it doesn't make it true. But when someone with BPD makes a false accusation or statement, it could be just as false, but not sound as obvious. What can help here is a stronger boundary- what is true about you, and what isn't.

If your ex called you a pink elephant, would you be ruminating over it, wondering if perhaps you did something or didn't do and you might be one? No, you are certain you aren't an elephant. You wouldn't be wondering.

Now, substitute "pink elephant" for the accusation of keeping him from his friends. You know that neither of these statements are true. You don't need to give them any more thought or defend them.

In my own experience, when I realized my BPD mother could say things that weren't true, I was shocked. In my own mind mothers don't do this. Why she did, I don't know but if she thought something, it seemed real to her.

If I could step out of my emotions, I could see where I could do or say something and she'd experience it in a completely different way. One example was when she was getting some construction work done in her basement. I had just had some work done in my house and had cleaned up the construction dust from it. I casually mentioned that she might want to cover a bookshelf in the basement as it would be a lot to clean up.  I didn't mean literally- she is a short person- she'd have to ask the workmen to do it but that wasn't how it came out or how she heard it.

What she heard was that I ordered her to climb up a bookshelf, which was not feasable or safe for her. I would not ever have even thought that. This resulted in her getting upset with me, and accusing me of telling her to do that.

You probably never even thought about keeping your partner from his friends but if he thought it, he believed it, even if you did nothing of the sorts. This is disordered thinking. We can't control that. What you need to keep a hold of is your own reality. It's not true and him saying it isn't true.

Sometimes we just can't ever know what someone else is thinking but we can decide for ourselves if it's true or not.

[hotchip]

Thank you, NotWendy.

Like you, I grew up with an unstable mother who, among other things, semi-regularly threatened to murder-suicide me and accused me of causing her death (this was when I was a small child, and my mother is still alive).

Over the years, I have learned to not treat statements she makes as reality, and in fact I've been NC for several years, after she falsely claimed my father was suicidal.

It breaks my heart to see another person who I thought I loved become detached from reality like this, but it is what has happened.

I am not a pink elephant and the things uBPDx are saying are not true. 

[hotchip]

A really funny thing my mother used to do was accuse me of putting her in a nursing home and it was like, 'i'm five years old, and you're not in a nursing home.'

[Notwendy]

There is a connection between our family of origin dynamics and who we form a romantic relationship with. It's an emotional, subconscious thing. You might want to look into this through counseling. Your doing this may help you identify this dynamic so you can avoid it in the future.

As children, we want our mothers to love us. We are also magical thinkers, and also believe what our mothers tell us. You know now that what she said about being put in a nursing home was absurd, but you probably could not process that as a child.

This may be why you tended to take your ex's accusations to heart and to try harder in that relationship, rather than to recognize that this was disordered thinking, on an emotional level. There's a familiarity to that for you. You will be more aware now.

[ForeverDad]

If we had a Fault Scale to measure the proportional amount of "fault", and if you honestly consider the fault you shoulder, you'd have to conclude - if you can weigh the facts - the disordered person would have the lion's share.  Yet, contrary to the reality, we've been indoctrinated the opposite due to the years and relentless intensity of "It's All Your Fault!"

The Bridge
The Backyard Black Hole
There's a Hole in My Sidewalk

[PeteWitsend]

A really funny thing my mother used to do was accuse me of putting her in a nursing home and it was like, 'i'm five years old, and you're not in a nursing home.'

if you can recognize how absurd her behavior was, you should be able to do the same with your Ex.  His claims - e.g. denying he asked you to move out when you have the texts of him doing just that - are essentially as ridiculous as your mom's were. 

I think Notwendy is right in seeking counseling for these issues.  I think counseling can be helpful to identify these "blind spots" in our thinking.  If you know they're there, you won't get so tripped up, or triggered when you encounter them, so to speak. 

Like running into your ex-... the guy sounds like a real piece of work, and you shouldn't be surprised he'd openly lie to you.  Knowing that, you can mentally put some guard rails around the things he says and does. 

It also sounds to me like you might have an unhealthy attraction to him still and that's clouding your judgment. 

[hotchip]

also sounds to me like you might have an unhealthy attraction to him still and that's clouding your judgment.

PeteWisend, where are you picking that up? I don't think I experience any desire for a resumption of the relationship or physical intimacy.

I do, though, experience an ongoing sense of care and identification. I am sad to see him, well, unwell to the point of being crazy, and my initial response is still, against all evidence, 'is this true' rather than ignoring his allegations.

Counselling for specific things like codependency is pretty expensive, but theres a free online option i plan to attend next week.

[TelHill]

I do, though, experience an ongoing sense of care and identification. I am sad to see him, well, unwell to the point of being crazy, and my initial response is still, against all evidence, 'is this true' rather than ignoring his allegations.

Counselling for specific things like codependency is pretty expensive, but theres a free online option i plan to attend next week.

hotchip,

A pwBPD's intense emotions and distortion of reality can cause a  normal friend or family member to doubt reality. It's happened to all of us. It takes a lot of strength and fortitude to step back from it and distance ourselves.  Having your mother threaten you as a child is scary. I think trying to appease your mother is a very normal reaction to try make her stop and control the situation to stay safe.

 I've overcompensated by people pleasing and putting someone else's wants first to stop problems and restore peace. My late mother was dBPD and raged at me for being a less than ideal child. I tried to be better but it was never good enough. I'd be in tears and frustrated not knowing what to do to be better to avoid her rage. I thought I was a very nice and pleasant child.

I suffer from codependency as a result of my childhood. There is a free 12 step program called Codependents Anonymous which has online and in person meetings. I've been to meetings and found them helpful.

While you're healing, you may want to avoid places where you'd run into your ex. If you do, keep conversations short and polite avoiding anything personal. You might want to avoid this friend group where your ex is smearing you to. It's too much pressure to wonder if they believe you or him. They may not be healthy if they don't see your ex as disordered.

[PeteWitsend]

PeteWisend, where are you picking that up? I don't think I experience any desire for a resumption of the relationship or physical intimacy.

...

I don't mean to say you want him back, but you seem to still be carrying a flame for him in some way.  I'm inferring that because of the amount of attention you seem to have given him as a result of the interaction you had. 

And this next part:

... I am sad to see him, well, unwell to the point of being crazy, and my initial response is still, against all evidence, 'is this true' rather than ignoring his allegations.

...

If I understand you correctly, considering him "unwell" is a choice you're making. I don't know that I'd use that word to describe someone who's BPD.  It's a personality disorder.  This is who they are.  It's not like getting over the flu, and there's nothing you can do about that.  You can't help him see that he's wrong, and/or why it's not okay to lie to others like he does. 

I think that's why a lot of people leave these relationships still hung up on their feelings; it seems so wrong that people behave like this, and if we could just show them the error of their ways, then they could recognize and appreciate us, and become who we want them to be.  Or at least reaffirm our faith in humanity, that liars and frauds can't just move among us indefinitely without facing some accountability.  But they're not sick; their thinking may be disordered, and this may be due in some part to genetics and in some part possibly to childhood trauma, but they are adults who've learned to use their behavior to get what they want and manipulate others.  It's not as innocent as you seem to want to believe.

The Frog and the Scorpion parable is applicable here. 

Maybe you're just understandably frustrated he could continue to blatantly lie to you, but if you can see these things with your mom, and not with him, that made me think you're still holding out so hope you can "change him." 

You mentioned he left his original country.  In my case, BPDxw did too, for reasons that are pretty obvious in hindsight: she was escaping a country where everyone knew "her type," and could reinvent herself, and find new people who were - if not completely gullible - unacquainted with people like her she could take advantage of. 

I think it's telling you offered him an opportunity to visit his home country and he declined.  And again, his feelings as expressed to you are not genuine.  He was supposedly homesick, but really this was just something he could use to evoke some sympathy for him.  He wants to kill himself but never does.  He's a lonely immigrant, but won't go home.  You, hoping against all evidence he will admit he was at fault in the way the relationship ended, but this is "controlling him."

[TelHill]

PeteWitsend, I consider pwBPD mentally ill or unwell. I don't like the segregation of personality disorders into another category, distinct from other extreme mental illnesses such as schizophrenia. I think BPD and schizophrenia are both persistent and do not go away.

It's interesting to note that my late dBPD mother was an immigrant, as was the rest of my family. I've got plenty of disordered relatives. There are other reasons for coming to a western, stable country other than finding new people who don't know your past relationships.

There's poverty and hunger. There are also countries with toxic governments and psychological torture. My family is not from East Germany but the goverment from their country did the same. Their secret police and the secret police from my parents homeland collaborated.

From Wikipedia: Zersetzung (pronounced [t͡sɛɐ̯ˈzɛt͡sʊŋ] ⓘ, German for "decomposition" and "disruption") is a psychological warfare technique first used by the Ministry for State Security (Stasi) to repress political opponents in East Germany during the 1970s and 1980s. Zersetzung served to combat alleged and actual dissidents through covert means, using secret methods of abusive control and psychological manipulation to prevent anti-government activities. Among the defining features of it was the widespread use of counterespionage methods as a means of repression.[3] People were commonly targeted on a pre-emptive and preventive basis, to limit or stop activities of political dissent and cultural incorrectness that they may have gone on to perform, and not on the basis of crimes they had actually committed. Zersetzung methods were designed to break down, undermine, and paralyze people behind "a facade of social normality"[4] in a form of "silent repression".[4]

I questioned my late dBPD mother harshly and my uBPD ex-husband too hoping to get a different answer too. It's human to do this.

[hotchip]

Thank you for your insights TellHill and PeteWitsend, there is lots of truth in what both of you have shared which is helping me.

I questioned my late dBPD mother harshly and my uBPD ex-husband too hoping to get a different answer too. It's human to do this.

Thank you for sharing this. Re: wanting people to change - TellHill, like you, I spent years asking, bargaining, harshly questioning and begging my mother to change or acknowledge what she'd done. It's hard to disengage and I'm glad you eventually succeeded.

You mentioned he left his original country.  In my case, BPDxw did too, for reasons that are pretty obvious in hindsight: she was escaping a country where everyone knew "her type," and could reinvent herself

Pete, re: being an immigrant - I am also an immigrant and live far from my family. As TellHill says, there's lots of reasons why people do this that aren't to do with being disordered. I've spent a long time away from my country of origin, not because I don't want to be there, but because tickets are expensive and there are decisions and sacrifices to be made.

That said, in this case, uBPDx chose to come to this country in a chaotic state, and in the aftermath of the dissolution of his previous relationship, as a result of his having an affair with a mutual friend of his then-partner. He also mentioned that despite having been continuously in relationships since his teenage years, he was not in touch with any of his previous partners - none had wanted to continue having a connection with him after the fact.

So PeteWitsend, your intuition was right - like your ex, he was running away from the results of his own actions.

The big question: are they unwell or manipulative? And in this (and many) cases, I think it's both. From what I've read, BPD ppl often make manipulative suicide threats, as was the case with uBPDx. But they also do commit suicide at very high rates. I think that's part of why this experience, and this disorder more broadly, is so crazy-making. It's an unstable mix of truth and untruth.

I'm trying to remind myself that we can never fully know someone else's mental state. We can only see their actions and how they affect us. Maybe the scorpion really is in a lot of psychological distress and doesn't want to sting the frog. But, we know from experience and observation that this is what it's going to do, so if we don't want to get stung, we have to remove ourselves from the situation.

You might want to avoid this friend group where your ex is smearing you to. It's too much pressure to wonder if they believe you or him. They may not be healthy if they don't see your ex as disordered.

TellHill, thank you for this good advice. I am going to do this. That said, I did speak to one person who said I shouldn't worry about anyone believing his untruths, as they can see he is unstable and his claims are not credible.

The question is, why do I still care? What is the 'hook'?

As you have picked up, I still do feel care, concern and identification with uBPDx. I want him to have integrity, not be manipulative and not be a liar. I want these things though reason tells me they are not going to occur.

Part of that reflects an attachment, not to the relationship itself (which I certainly don't want to resume!) but the story it represents, about myself as 'special' and genuinely loved, and as having the power to pursue a shared life based in integrity with another person. This sounds good, but as I've mentioned elsewhere, it is to an extent a narcissistic narrative. No one is so special they have the power to create integrity for another person.

Perhaps accepting uBPDx is a liar is easier than accepting that my concept of the life I was living, the relationship I had and even who I was or was capable of - is also, to a significant extent, a lie.

[Notwendy]

I have another idea about your feeling of attachment to him. It was romantic but also unconsciously felt familiar and obligatory- due to your experience with your mother.

There are cultural attitudes about mothers and how children should behave towards them. For me, the idea that my mother was abusive was something I felt had to be wrong to think and not dare to say, and a sense that if only I was "good enough" she would behave like other mothers- kind and loving.

The sense of "feeling special" was an aspect of that. We were considered "good" if we somehow enabled, a cooperated with her- and tried to make her happy, as if we had the ability to change her- make her happy. I can imagine that this behavior was reinforced and encouraged in our families.

We don't recognize some behaviors we grow up with as "wrong". They are our "normal". We would recognize abuse if it were obvious- like physical abuse but verbal and emotional abuse may have been normalized in our families.

There's also boundaries and a sense of self that got blurred in families with a disordered person. So perhaps if you say that your ex was abusive in ways- you may feel a sense of this being wrong about you. If you were to think he was not a good person, would that feel wrong to you, or as if you were doing something wrong by saying it (whether he is or isn't) due to your connection to him.

Maybe you also see the good in him the way you did with your mother. Few people are all good or all bad at all times. I don't even think the term "bad person" is that helpful. People might have hurtful behavior for all kinds of reasons, some we may not even know why. It's about recognizing the behaviors as hurtful and making a decision about a relationship with that person. If it's a close relative, that might mean limiting/managing contact and the situations one is in contact with them. If it's a potential romantic partner- one can say "no" to that.

[PeteWitsend]

PeteWitsend, I consider pwBPD mentally ill or unwell. I don't like the segregation of personality disorders into another category, distinct from other extreme mental illnesses such as schizophrenia. I think BPD and schizophrenia are both persistent and do not go away.  ...

BPD (or any Cluster B/Personality Disorder) seems fundamentally different to me than from a mental illness such as schizophrenia, or depression.  In the former cases, there's a calculating aspect to the problematic behavior.  In the latter cases, there's not. 

To put it a different way, a pwBPD may dysregulate, or in extreme cases can disassociate completely, and may have absurd or irrational reactions to events when compared to how a non-disordered person would perceive them.   A pwBPD can make a mountain out of a molehill, and spin the most innocent off-hand remark into a bloodfeud that never ends.  But they still pick and choose who they're going to fight with.  You can see they are absolutely calculating, abusive, and cruel in how they react to those events, and how they treat their close relations.  Schizophrenics do not have that calculating aspect to themselves; they are truly disassociated from the world around them, and their behavior is unpredictable, and not always self-serving.  Those who are clinically depressed are a victim of their brain chemistry and cannot function because of it.  Very unlike BPD in my mind.

To say a pwBPD is "unwell" in the same way gives an unwarranted pass to their calculating behavior.  Maybe in a sense they are unwell, but to allow them that excuse serves their problematic behavior further, and enables them to keep doing it, or do it to an even worse degree.  And also prevents those victimized by them from standing up for themselves and enforcing healthy boundaries to distance themselves from it and keep their own sanity.  Or in the case of children, from developing mature attitudes on how to treat people that don't treat you how you should be treated.

... It's interesting to note that my late dBPD mother was an immigrant, as was the rest of my family. I've got plenty of disordered relatives. There are other reasons for coming to a western, stable country other than finding new people who don't know your past relationships.  ...

Oh, to be clear, I was not lumping all immigrants together.  I just think that when you see certain types of behavior, the immigration status could be another red flag.  A sign they feel they need to run from something.  like they're always looking for new, innocent "victims," and trying to distance themselves from their past relationships.  I imagine a guy like hotchip's ex, who's apparently a serial cheater, and takes advantage of women by preying on their better nature can't stay in a small community too long before he gets a reputation among the same women as a user...  or killed by some jealous husband or boyfriend who catches him... old school stuff like that!   

In BPDxw's case, it also fits her M.O., and since she's been here in the States the avoidant behavior continues: moving homes or jobs frequently; burned bridges with former coworkers, neighbors, and friends.  She can't move countries again without losing custody of our daughter (and the child support payments she needs to maintain her standard of living), so she hasn't done that.  Still, once she moves, joins all the local message boards on Facebook, joins PTA, volunteers for everything.  Gets to tell her sob story about how hard she worked to get to America and make it here.  Gets to bask in the attention, and feels great when everyone comments on what a go-getter she is.  Then she never shows up, never does her assigned tasks, things fall apart, things don't get done, and she's there making excuses for why.  Blames other people for it.  Insults people in the process.  Picks fights on facebook.  Gets blacklisted.  Runs to find someone to commiserate with.  Triangulates with a "savior" to help her badmouth all the people she just burned.  Moves on... new house.  New job.  New career.  Repeat ad inifinitum.

[Pook075]

Oh, to be clear, I was not lumping all immigrants together.  I just think that when you see certain types of behavior, the immigration status could be another red flag.  A sign they feel they need to run from something. 

I'm currently living in the Philippines (because my wife is here) and the average household income is $8/day.  The average cost of living is $10-12/day...and now closer to $13.50/day with surging gas prices.  Literally any person in this country, no matter how wealthy or poor, would immigrate to America tomorrow if given the chance. 

When they do get a chance to work overseas, they are FANTASTIC workers because they've never had any opportunity before and they'll do anything to keep that blessing.  A McDonalds paycheck feeds 10-20 people back home for the entire month.  That's why you see all foreigners in fast food, hair salons, stocking shelves, etc.  They are extremely thankful for those jobs and do not take it for granted.

[hotchip]

To say a pwBPD is "unwell" in the same way gives an unwarranted pass to their calculating behavior. .. And also prevents those victimized by them from standing up for themselves and enforcing healthy boundaries to distance themselves from it and keep their own sanity.

Hmm. PeteWitsend, right now I don't see it that way. For me, seeing uBPDx as unwell is actually helping me to protect myself. I might hate him, I might feel sad about the Dr Jekyll version of him, but ultimately, there is no point bargaining with a disorder. If he's sick, that's very sad for him, but putting distance between myself and the sickness is the right thing to do.

To use an imperfect analogy, you wouldn't get on a cruise ship knowing there was a deadly viral outbreak on board (unless you were a doctor, had appropriate protective gear, etc). Whether the people who have contracted the illness are to blame or totally faultless, is beside the point. You won't help and you'll make things worse for yourself.

I'm currently living in the Philippines (because my wife is here) and the average household income is $8/day.

Pook, my country of origin is in the same region as the Philippines. It is a different environment where there is much less expectation that external or professional services will intervene to help someone in personal or mental health crisis. Partly because the resources are simply not there for most people, and partly because people's conception of self is much more interdependent and less individualistic than the West.

Apart from the manipulative dynamics, I think this may also have made it harder for me to just detach from uBPDx's many problems and toxic actions. A sense of obligation that made less sense in a modern, Western context where he actually could seek other services and wasn't going to end up on the street if I asked him to leave (and in the end, he showed no such qualms about telling me to leave, so).

I have another idea about your feeling of attachment to him. It was romantic but also unconsciously felt familiar and obligatory- due to your experience with your mother.

There's also boundaries and a sense of self that got blurred in families with a disordered person. So perhaps if you say that your ex was abusive in ways- you may feel a sense of this being wrong about you. If you were to think he was not a good person, would that feel wrong to you, or as if you were doing something wrong by saying it (whether he is or isn't) due to your connection to him.

NotWendy, you've got it again.

I still feel angry with uBPDx, obviously, but I also feel embarrassed for him. I want him to be 'good', act well, hold his head up, face and fix the things he's done. As if this will prove that I, too, am 'good'. After the boundaries between us were blurred for so long in the relationship, with his repeated assertions that everything he did (whether bad or good) was because 'you made me that way' - I have internalised the idea I am responsible for, well, everything. It's a fantasy of redemption and control.

The migration process and isolation which ensued tended to exacerbate pre-existing mental illness tendencies in my mother. I think uBPDx was certainly unwell and behaved badly in his country of origin, but I suspect it became worse after he emigrated. Maybe something about these dynamics triggered a deep familiarity in me.

For a long time, I had a strong sense of loyalty to my mother. No, she wasn't 'bad'. She was just too special for others to understand. Or the good in her was so very good that it made up for everything else.

[Pook075]

Pook, my country of origin is in the same region as the Philippines. It is a different environment where there is much less expectation that external or professional services will intervene to help someone in personal or mental health crisis. Partly because the resources are simply not there for most people, and partly because people's conception of self is much more interdependent and less individualistic than the West.

I completely understand.  My wife and I had several arguments when we first got together in person because she's such a strong, independent woman who's moved mountains for herself and her son.  The family bonds in the Philippines are so much stronger than the USA as well; family is everything here because you can't survive without them.  So there was a lot of figuring out the cultural differences for both of us and it was an adjustment for sure.

For you, having to do that on top of mental illness problems sounds like such an impossible task.  I'm so sorry you went through all of that.

[PeteWitsend]

Hmm. PeteWitsend, right now I don't see it that way. For me, seeing uBPDx as unwell is actually helping me to protect myself. I might hate him, I might feel sad about the Dr Jekyll version of him, but ultimately, there is no point bargaining with a disorder. If he's sick, that's very sad for him, but putting distance between myself and the sickness is the right thing to do.

Well, now, I agree that distancing yourself from him is the right thing to do, but is he "unwell"?  He's openly lying to your face, and has a history of lying compulsively to get his way, to avoid responsibility, and to manipulate others.  He knows what he's doing; he even ran away from one place when he wore out his welcome there.  Honestly he sounds more akin to NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) than BPD, although comorbidity of those is more likely in men, as I understand it. 

I know someone who is mentally ill; he likely has full blown paranoid schizophrenia, and this developed later in life (in his 40's).  I saw he had some professional issues, and looked him up, and was floored when I found a twitter feed where he was apparently hospitalized on a psych hold, and claiming someone was burning his hair out and skin with chemicals, and his family was barred from seeing him.  He had a couple arrests for stalking his ex-wife. 

He was clearly unwell.  He could perhaps be put on anti-psychotic drugs to curb the behavior and get him functional again.  The stalking charges were forgivable in the context; he likely didn't fully grasp what he was doing, as his mind was incapable of perceiving reality like you or I would. 

Now compare this with your ex... what's going to make him stop lying to people compulsively like that?  How would you ever know whether it was true or not? 

Looking for the good in people is widely considered a positive personal trait.  We celebrate it in others.  "I'm a glass half full person."  But when you're dealing with a pwBPD, it's toxic; it draws you right into a web of deceit and keeps you there, as they are adept at getting you to chase their "good side" by showing you their "bad side"; they draw you in deeper and deeper by holding that wonderful love and affection they showed you at first out as a "carrot" ... if you can only do or say the right thing, they'll be better and you'll live happily ever after, right?  But reality isn't like that, and you chase and chase and chase that dream, until you wise up. 

To use an imperfect analogy, you wouldn't get on a cruise ship knowing there was a deadly viral outbreak on board (unless you were a doctor, had appropriate protective gear, etc). Whether the people who have contracted the illness are to blame or totally faultless, is beside the point. You won't help and you'll make things worse for yourself.

...

Absolutely.  Like I said, distancing yourself from people with behavioral disorders is the right thing to do, and I'm not saying otherwise.  It might be the only thing you can do, in order to avoid getting dragged down into the mud with them. 

Though a doctor can diagnose and cure most cruise ship illnesses... psychiatrists and psychologists have a much worse track record with BPD and other behavioral disorders.  They're not the same thing. 

[hotchip]

PeteWitsend, as I have read, BPD was so named because it exists on the borderline between psychosis and neurosis, with psychosis being completely factually distorted perceptions of reality (eg., seeing or hearing things that are not there) and neurosis being intense emotional states causing distress (but not fully losing touch with reality).

It is clear uBPDx is not in full psychosis. He is able to lie and to withhold information to obtain a desired result, i.e., hiding his cheating. He is also highly intelligent and articulate in certain professional settings. At times, he has appeared to feel extreme shame for his actions, which means he is aware of them. In that sense, he is responsible.

Yet I think there is also a distortion of reality that is not quite the same as pure calculated lying. For one thing, the lies aren't very strategic - lies to do with cheating, money and other things that are externally verifiable, or bound to be found out over time. They are reactive, desperate and somewhat stupid.

In the legal system and various philosophical systems there is a spectrum of intentionality, from things you did when you were of sound mind and had considered clearly and in advance, to things you did voluntarily but on the spur of the moment, to things you did involuntarily or under compulsion. That's why there's a difference between murder and manslaughter (and lots of other classifications to do with pre-meditation).

From what I can tell, uBPDx 'acts out' when he is in an emotional state that seems overwhelming or unbearable to him at the time. Whether it's cheating because he wants validation, misappropriating money because he has no self control (yeah, that's something that's come out) - his acts are despicable but I think not planned in advance with the absolute maximum level of intentionality. Otherwise surely he'd plan it better and say things that are less ridiculous. (When not dysregulated, he is a highly intelligent person).

Then, instead of facing the consequences of his actions, he panics and lies to make the bad impact go away, even though he must know it will blow back on him later.

Maybe a better comparison than schizophrenia is something like alcoholism. uBPDx's addiction is to validation because there is a gaping hole inside himself. Like many alcoholics, he 'drinks' (lies, cheats, manipulates) because in the moment, he cannot stop. When you talk about him lying 'compulsively' I think you're seeing the same dynamic. Then he tries to cover it up, and it gets worse.

The vile behaviours I'm describing in this post here come largely from the end of the relationship, but the emotional manipulations from earlier in the relationship I think also fit the same pattern.

So, he's distressed (and I still believe much of his suicidal ideation reflected genuine distress). He needs an emotional 'fix' from me, therefore, he manipulates me with suicidal words and threats (neurosis) so that I give him the emotional reaction he wants. It's voluntary in the sense that he exists in reality and knows what he is doing - he's not talking to poles or trees in the street. It's involuntary in that, like an addict, he really feels like he cannot live without the emotional fix that I provide.

This seems like both sickness and intention to me, but if you see this as full intention and don't like the word 'unwell', that's also valid.

[hotchip]

To put it another way, leaning on the murder/ manslaughter analogy: the intentionality that I perceive uBPDx having, is much more on the 'manslaughter' side of things than 'murder'. But regardless, I need to stay away if I don't want to end up dead.

(I don't mean to treat the analogy in a flippant way - I think it does illustrate something - but apologies if it comes across like that).

[Notwendy]

I think that's a comparable analogy in that the outcome can be harmful whether motive. The consequence is considered with the safety of society in mind- is this person a danger to others along with a deterrent to the behavior. The judge and the penal system has this power.

Where this differs is that BPD behaviors aren't necessarily technically crimes. Some are- such as physical abuse, but lying, cheating on a partner-there's no legal recourse, or power. The consderation becomes our own selves, our own emotional, physical, and financial safety.

Of interest- I was concerned for my BPD mother in her elder years. She had difficulty with making reasonable decisions. Family members were also concerned and wanted me to seek legal advice for this and from her health care providers. Even with her behaviors, she was considered legally competent in the medical and legal sense, so I could not intervene at all, even if I thought it would have been in her best interest.

In addition, we have the choice when it comes to a romantic relationship- even without there being anything wrong with the other person. Someone could be a great person- just not a good fit for you. Given the choice, you don't have to choose between motives for behavior, you can choose to not get involved with someone who you see has these behaviors.