Update - pwBPD are consistent and predictable

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I guess that is what they mean by a "pervasive" disorder. 

My now separated BPDw had a "falling out" with her new girlfriend.  The aftermath confirms everything I predicted.

Basically, GF got caught in the push-pull and opted out.  First, it was "let's try being friends for awhile" declaration from GF.  W didn't like that, so she did more pushing, and GF did more pulling away.  Eventually, W saw GF with GF's previous partner, and W got upset.  I suspect W was qusi-stalking GF in hopes of "accidentally" bumping into her.  That would be consistent with the pattern. 

GF left W one last voice memo, basically stating that she wants to just walk away, but wants to leave one more memo as a caring human being and urging W to go into behavioral treatment before she does damage to others or her kids.  GF alleged abuse and harassment.  GF said she is now blocking W's number and deleting the contact. 

GF is not without problems herself and is one that does not tolerate being engulfed.  I suspect she felt that way and ran back to her ex as to have someone else to hang out with.  W increased the frequency of her "text bombing" until GF had enough.  GF would probably have let W know sooner that she was no longer interested - but as most of us do we fear the wrath and avoid confrontation hoping the other will "get the hint".  The sad thing is I predicted this would happen - almost exactly - but with pwBPD that's not too hard to do because the pattern never changes (you could insert exBF into the story and there would be more than one matching example from her past).

GF seems to have pretty strong boundaries here. I'm not sure when she first alleged the "abuse", but I suspect W said some very mean and abusive things to GF when she felt things were ending.  pwBPD can't leave things with "no".

I also learned (and predicted) her hasty motivation to move out was in part due to her wanting to strengthen her R/S with her GF.  She wanted her own space to hang out with GF in.  W was upset that GF never wanted to hang out in her new apartment. 

Now BPDw is wondering if she is abusive and needs to seek treatment.  I told her I could not help her with those decisions but would support her seeking treatment if that is what she decided.  One thing can be said about her - she is very self-aware having been diagnosed BPD as a teenager over 30 years ago.  She doesn't need anyone to tell her that her behavior is abusive or to help her recognize the patterns.  She knows it is happening when it is happening - yet cannot stop herself.  That is scary.

So why am I involved in this drama?  Well - we are trying to co-parent, and this does affect the kids.  Knowing whether she is in an emotional place conducive to letting the kids overnight is pretty important.  And unfortunately, that means needing to understand the basics of what is going on. 

My path going forward - do what I can to support decisions that she makes to improve herself as a person and a mother while avoiding things that support destructive behaviors.  I've been doing quite well letting her r/s drama be hers even when I suspected things not going well and distancing myself from her decisions regarding employment or wanting her own place. 

[maxsterling]

I guess that is what they mean by a "pervasive" disorder. 

My now separated BPDw had a "falling out" with her new girlfriend.  The aftermath confirms everything I predicted.

Basically, GF got caught in the push-pull and opted out.  First, it was "let's try being friends for awhile" declaration from GF.  W didn't like that, so she did more pushing, and GF did more pulling away.  Eventually, W saw GF with GF's previous partner, and W got upset.  I suspect W was qusi-stalking GF in hopes of "accidentally" bumping into her.  That would be consistent with the pattern. 

GF left W one last voice memo, basically stating that she wants to just walk away, but wants to leave one more memo as a caring human being and urging W to go into behavioral treatment before she does damage to others or her kids.  GF alleged abuse and harassment.  GF said she is now blocking W's number and deleting the contact. 

GF is not without problems herself and is one that does not tolerate being engulfed.  I suspect she felt that way and ran back to her ex as to have someone else to hang out with.  W increased the frequency of her "text bombing" until GF had enough.  GF would probably have let W know sooner that she was no longer interested - but as most of us do we fear the wrath and avoid confrontation hoping the other will "get the hint".  The sad thing is I predicted this would happen - almost exactly - but with pwBPD that's not too hard to do because the pattern never changes (you could insert exBF into the story and there would be more than one matching example from her past).

GF seems to have pretty strong boundaries here. I'm not sure when she first alleged the "abuse", but I suspect W said some very mean and abusive things to GF when she felt things were ending.  pwBPD can't leave things with "no".

I also learned (and predicted) her hasty motivation to move out was in part due to her wanting to strengthen her R/S with her GF.  She wanted her own space to hang out with GF in.  W was upset that GF never wanted to hang out in her new apartment. 

Now BPDw is wondering if she is abusive and needs to seek treatment.  I told her I could not help her with those decisions but would support her seeking treatment if that is what she decided.  One thing can be said about her - she is very self-aware having been diagnosed BPD as a teenager over 30 years ago.  She doesn't need anyone to tell her that her behavior is abusive or to help her recognize the patterns.  She knows it is happening when it is happening - yet cannot stop herself.  That is scary.

So why am I involved in this drama?  Well - we are trying to co-parent, and this does affect the kids.  Knowing whether she is in an emotional place conducive to letting the kids overnight is pretty important.  And unfortunately, that means needing to understand the basics of what is going on. 

My path going forward - do what I can to support decisions that she makes to improve herself as a person and a mother while avoiding things that support destructive behaviors.  I've been doing quite well letting her r/s drama be hers even when I suspected things not going well and distancing myself from her decisions regarding employment or wanting her own place. 

[Notwendy]

GF seems to have pretty strong boundaries here.

Now BPDw is wondering if she is abusive and needs to seek treatment.  I told her I could not help her with those decisions but would support her seeking treatment if that is what she decided. 

My path going forward - do what I can to support decisions that she makes to improve herself as a person and a mother while avoiding things that support destructive behaviors.  I've been doing quite well letting her r/s drama be hers even when I suspected things not going well and distancing myself from her decisions regarding employment or wanting her own place. 

Max, good job with the boundaries. I think the GF had a lot of clarity about your W and appropriate boundaries. After the initial "love stage" I think the GF realized that your wife's needs were more than she felt were emotionally healty.

As to your wife "getting treatment"- hasn't she already been in treatment- and is still in treatment- since her teens, and now she's in her 40's. I think by now you can see how effective treatment is with her. Keep in mind that when the GF suggested this, she was probably not aware of all of your wife's mental health history.

My concern for you is the possible challenge of when your wife decides to come back to the marriage. I say "when" not "if" because, IMHO, I think this is as predictable as the outcome with the GF too.

If 20 years of mental health treatments have not led to the kind of changes you wish your wife would make- I think you can assume that more of that isn't likely to do it either. Not that it hasn't done anything at all- I think she needs mental health and it is helping her but it hasn't achieved the kind of mental stability you wish for, likely due to the pervasiveness of your wife's BPD. What you see now may be the limit of therapy with her- better than none, but consider her level of function as she is now, after about 20 years of different treatments.

Why do I think she will come back to you and want to move back in? Because of her mental health and level of functioning.  You are the best "caretaker" she's ever had. Going for the GF was one of those magical thinking pursuits- well if my H can't meet all my needs, maybe I need a woman- and she hoped GF would be that "solution". We know that there's no external person or thing that can meet all their internal emotional needs.

Do you want to sign on for that role again or be supportive to her for the sake of the kids from the stability in your own place  that separation provides.

Keep using your ability to predict and be logical when she comes back, possibly love bombing, and wanting to make it work. You've been there before and know how this goes. Now is your chance to decide to go back to the way things were- or hold the boundary on your newfound stable space and boundaries. The choice is yours.

[Pook075]

For my BPD daughter (who's now 27), she sought treatment after a similar breakup.  She couldn't handle the rejection or the betrayal, even though she's the one that ultimately caused both by cheating.  It may have been the first time she ever realized, "Hey, I'm not a very good person to the people I'm close to."

It was the first time my kid actually wanted to change and she did quite a bit over the next year.  It helped her get her life in order quite a bit.  That was about 3 years ago.

Today, my kid is still BPD and still struggles, but she does have a better understanding of herself at least and her destructive tendencies.  There are times I think she's 'almost' past it and there's times I think that nothing has changed at all.  She's definitely better overall though and there is long-term hope.

I also think part of BPD is maturity and people can grow out of their most destructive traits.  But again, it takes that realization in the first place to begin that healing journey.

Anyway, I'm glad your kid got dumped.  Maybe the short-term heartbreak will lead to some long-term adjustments on how they treat others.

[Notwendy]

The "being dumped" might be a motivator to someone who wants to have a romantic partner but if this is the motivation- Max's wife is already married. She  added an additional partner- the GF.

Max did not want or initiate this, and his wife had gone on a dating site to find the GF before he even knew about it. This is an important boundary to bring up- because it could have been one if monogamy was a solid boundary, but it was not- he wanted to also be understanding and open minded about the idea. That's his choice- each person decides the terms of their marriage.

Wife moved out to be with GF and that didn't work out for her, however, Max has discovered that living separately is less stressful for him.

The choice here isn't only hers- to get therapy or not, but if the motivation is to get therapy is to find another GF, it's good she's getting therapy but that would be to have the open marriage with women and remain married to Max, and live with him, in between GFs.

If the motivation to get therapy is to have the security of a place to live and the emotional caretaking Max provides, then moving back in with him will take away that motivation.

Max has choices too. Decide that this open marriage, isn't for him- and accept that they want different things that can't be resolved: monogamy or open marriage- take the responsibility of ending the marriage. Or continue to accept the new status of "open marriage" and if we are going by predictions, expect more of the same now that this is open.

If we consider that the consequences of moving out to have a relationship and then the break up are the learning experience that could motivate someone, then moving right back in with Max takes that away and restores the status quo-  with the additional ability to seek out other partners if she wishes. This is also Max's choice to consider.

A third option is to for Max to choose to continue living separately in a temporary separation and if the wife is motivated to make changes- to realize that change is slow and a seemingly quick recovery would be unlikely to maintain and hold this to a longer time frame under theraputic supervision. However, also consider that wife is in her 40's, has been in therapy since her teens, and so some time to see the effect of therapy is established. In this circumstance, wife might also seek out other relationships or stay the course.

[maxsterling]

Wendy that raises another question that I have been meaning to ask...

Sexual orientation in BPD.  

I've been told that people's sexual orientation is with them at birth and that this is nothing that they can change.  Those that "come out" later in life often say things like "I've always been gay, I've just never realized it until now."  In that sense, I don't see how W could ever come back to the marriage if the above statement (which she made) is true.  

Yet last night she told me "I don't even want to be gay anymore."  Her comment definitely came from a place of feeling hurt - but for me I can't imagine changing whether I date men or women based upon whom I was hurt by last.  

I've known many people who were married and discovered they were gay and the marriage ended.  In all but one of those that I personally know of, the partner who came out was a woman.

Back to W and BPD - she's had sexual experiences with both men and women.  Clearly she has been attracted to men before.  Clearly she has been attracted to women before.  She even "came out" to her family as a lesbian when she was a teenager, only to go back to dating men exclusively for the next 30 years.  Was she truly attracted to men, or was she looking for a man because she wanted to have a child?  That's what W believed a few weeks ago, that she was always a lesbian, but felt she had to date men because she wanted children and 30 years ago there were not the options there are today for lesbian couples.  I don't think that is true, at least not consciously, based upon what I know of her.  

I wonder for pwBPD if sexual orientation does not work quite the same as it does with non-disordered people.  I'm told a higher percentage of pwBPD identify as bisexual, but I wonder if the very nature of sexual attraction is different for pwBPD.  For W, it seems her attraction may be rooted in a need for attention, fear of abandonment, or not having a strong internal identity.  

I say this because with the recent r/s, it seems once W decided she wanted to be with a woman, it didn't matter so much which woman, and that she is now 100% gay, and always was gay and that dating men was only because she wanted to have kids.  She fully embraced the gay identity, only wanted to listen to gay musicians and read gay literature and watch things with gay themes.  It seems like this was more about creating and embracing an identity that she hoped to derive happiness from.