How to negotiate without triggering them?

[SuperDaddy]

Every couple in the world who lives together ends up having some type of conflict around the usage of the space or the things. Even more tension can arise when they disagree about the education/caretaking of kids. It's normal for sparks to fire at the heat of the moment. However, in a mentally healthy couple, those problems should not become chronic or too overwhelming. At some point when both parties are calm, one of them should try a better approach, disarming the other partner and allowing negotiation to happen. Then, when both are interested in talking with care and willing to understand the other point of view, it should be easy to compromise.

However, with a BPD partner, even by approaching them with planned steps and the best intentions, if it is a sensible topic, we are likely to fail badly. Because the topic may make them feel criticized and then trigger a very aggressive attitude in them.

For instance, my wife has very bad habits in regard to the organization of stuff and doing things impulsively, which ruins any kind of organization that I try to do in the house. I think this might be part of ADHD, but I feel like I can't touch those topics without triggering her.

Should I just wait for treatments to take effect before talking about it and, meanwhile, just use radical acceptance (accept the mess and keep quiet about it)?

Is this the kind of stuff for couples therapy?

Or is it possible to talk it out without triggering them?

Please share your experiences.

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[SuperDaddy]

Let me add an example...

This is what happens with my wife when she is in my place (we are living apart). Yesterday, since she was about to leave, I took the risk of making a brief comment while she was rolling over the kids' clothes in the drawer:

Me—Hey, my love, I don't quite like when the dresses of the kids are all messed up in the drawer, you know?
Her—Those didn't fit on her anymore. (becomes defensive)
Me—You are trying to justify it, but you know that all drawers have become like that.
Her—I didn't have to justify myself for you, because you are not my master or anything. Blah blah blah... (talking nonsense very loud, almost screaming, and nonstop)
Me—I don't have to hear your screams like that in my home, my own place. (while preparing to leave her sight)
Her—YOU SAY THAT TO HURT ME, YOU BASTARD! (switching now the topic to the "my home" phrase, which she didn't want me to use)

A minute later, while I am far from her, she prepares her stuff to leave but gives me an order:

Her—Give some fruits to your son!
Me—Are you giving me an order?
Her—YES!
Me—So screw you! (but I was going to prepare the fruits anyway)
Her—SCREW YOU !! Your **** ! #$...

As I fed our son with sweet melon, I brought a piece for her. I had to insist, but since she appreciates when I care for her, she began to cool off and accepted it. As I noticed the opportunity I brought, I gave her a hug and kiss. Finally, she is back to normal.

But nothing was resolved. And I think she ends up feeling like she was abused, and not the contrary.

[Horselover]

I find that my husband (also currently living apart) has very little bandwidth for these kinds of conversations. So I very carefully pick which ones I want to have. This obviously can make me feel pent up, as I need to keep many of my needs to myself and not discuss them, but the reality is that he is just not going to handle it well if I bring up a lot of "issues".

Basically, I try to pick whatever topics are MOST important to me, and then, when calm, not in the moment, I mention it to him in the most unemotional way possible and with very little elaboration. For example, "I would appreciate it if you leave the kids' clothing in their drawers the way I put it there. Thanks" (I would not say this as she is messing the clothing, but after the fact, a day or two later). I used to elaborate a lot on my requests and needs, and sometimes cry when very upset, and learned that these did not work at all, as he gets triggered and starts yelling at me and dissociating. Also, if he does respond poorly to any request, as when your wife started to become defensive or swear, I immediately disengage and close the conversation (hang up the phone, leave the room etc). And I do not ever try to use logic when he is becoming irritated (ie "you are trying to justify it, you know that all the drawers are becoming like that"). I am a very logical person, so it used to be my "go to", but now I know that logic is one of the worst strategies I can use for someone who is essentially completely illogical when dysregulated.

I am obviously not perfect, and do slip up sometimes and try to talk about things that are not in the "most important" category or say my needs in an emotional way, but usually it backfires. I am pretty consistent about disengaging when he gets elevated, and that has made my nervous system a lot calmer, as I could not handle engaging with his outbursts anymore.

I also have had to accept that the relationship is simply not a "normal" one where the couple can safely share their needs and feelings and come to a nice, shared compromise. This doesn't mean I accept abuse, because that is something I have a pretty hard limit on (ie I do not tolerate bad language, insults etc and won't engage at all), but it does mean that I have had to come to terms with the fact that if I want to stay in this relationship, it has some natural limitations on what I can express and what I can expect from him.

[SuperDaddy]

Horselover,

Thanks for your insights!

My nervous system can get back to normal very quickly. I think that helps because as soon as she stops yelling, she can notice my better mood and absorb it.

When I said all other drawers were in the same state, I was using logic indeed, but in my view she was not dysregulated yet. Though I realize she was being defensive already, using illogical arguments to defend her ego. So I get your point. I'll extract the parts that I agree with you on and add my own suggestion on how to approach the topics:

• Do not counter nonsense with logic, as it will make things worse. As soon as your BS detector is triggered, step back and let them know that you'll leave that for another moment.
• Do not question a behavior in real time, but instead wait for some time (perhaps even a couple of days) and then approach it in a positive way.
• Do not question a behavior directly, and instead talk about facts. Instead of saying that they burn and scratch the pans, describe how you love when your pans are preserved as new, because it helps both of you with the cooking. Instead of saying they shout at you on the phone and hang up, focus on the fact that you really liked when your phone conversations were pleasurable and ended up with kisses.
• When bringing up a delicate topic, first clarify your goal. If possible, describe it as a shared benefit, such as improving the relationship. Then describe the desired (ideal) situation and why it is important for you. Next, describe the undesired reality that you see and how you feel about it, while still avoiding pointing out their behavior. Finally, as an invitation to bring them into the conversation, ask them how they can help you with that. If it works, then they should get motivated to find out by themselves which behavior of theirs can be changed.
• Accept the fact that the relationship has limitations.

[SuperDaddy]

Can someone please give me more feedback on this?

Does the above list make sense?

[CC43]

Hi there,

I think my approach is in line with Horselover's.  Generally, I pick my battles.  Some things I just "let go."  And more often than not, if I want something, I have to resign myself to accepting that if I want it, I probably have to do it (or be responsible for it) myself, as reasonable discussions are futile.  Some bills, cleaning and general maintenance tasks fall into this category.  Oftentimes I have to take care of them "on the sly," so as not to trigger my partner and/or adult stepdaughter with BPD.  Because when they are in a mood, everything I do can seem "triggering," wrong, annoying or otherwise.

And then sometimes I use a "strategy."  I've found that hiring a third party to do things seems less triggering than if I myself do them.  An example might be hiring home cleaners.  If the cleaners straighten up a messy room, then it's not "my fault"--the cleaners were merely doing their job.  Another example would be hiring accountants--then the tax bill is from "professionals," not me using TurboTax, which cuts down on arguments over paying "too much" in taxes or me trying to "fudge the numbers."

Fortunately, we don't usually get into arguments over paying the regular bills (utilities, etc.), but if we did, I might try hiring a third-party budgeter who would tell us what we are compelled to pay.  That might cut down on arguments with me about WHAT we owe and WHY we have to pay.  Here's another example:  snow shoveling and leaf pick-up.  My partner will go berserk if I shovel--I think it's because I'm reminding him that he should be shoveling, but he doesn't want to do it in the moment, and I anger him because I make him feel guilty?  Yet when I'm shoveling, it's because I really need to (e.g. to get my car out or clear a path to the door/mailbox).  The solution?  Hire somebody.  End of arguments.  Regarding fall pick-up of leaves, either I do it "on the sly," or I hire somebody.  But if I pick up the leaves myself and my partner sees me, he usually gets angry because he "doesn't want to pick up leaves today."  (Bizarre, right?  I think he should be happy that I'm picking up the leaves!)  I think it's a guilt thing--he knows he's not pulling his weight, and I'm reminding him of that, and then I'm the bad one.  A similar thing happens with home repairs.  Painting?  My partner is happy for me to do it.  Fix anything mechanical/technical--a faulty doorknob, a frozen router--my husband won't let me do it, I'm not "allowed."  Either I do it myself (on the sly), hire someone, or live with broken things around the house.  I hate having broken stuff, by the way.

I think the above strategies are designed to avoid talking through issues.  But some things require conversation.  The ones that do, I wait for a calm moment, when the pwBPD or BPD traits is in a good mood.  I'll usually practice a script with myself beforehand.  I try to keep things really short and to the point--I know I probably only get one minute before potential dysregulation.  I try to avoid any blaming, and typically I'll just offer a solution.  Something along the lines:  We need XYZ, so I'd like to work on that soon.  Do you think you're able to help with (specific ask)?  How about next Saturday?  (Asking for their input on timing helps give them a sense of control I think--and I think they are more inclined to be amenable when a date seems farther off.)  And afterwards we can get a bite to eat (i.e. provide incentive).  When the work is done and they cooperate, I lay on the praise.

As for leaving messes, such as making a mess of clothes in a closet or drawer, I think I've accepted it by dividing up space in the house.  My closet (or my section of the closet)--I get to have it any way I want.  Look, my pwBPD has invaded my space, messed it up, rifled through things more times than I can count.  Usually I'll say after the fact, something like, "I know you like to have privacy in your room, and I do too.  All the adults in this house deserve privacy.  If you need something and you think it's in my bathroom/bedroom/closet/dresser/vanity/car/xyz, please just ask me first, and I'll get it for you, and I'll do the same with you.  OK?  That doesn't mean they'll stop, but if you say that a few times, they know the "rule."  And then when they break it, I think it's easier for you to point it out--Someone has been through my makeup drawer, and I now can't find my tweezers.  I'd appreciate having some privacy.

[SuperDaddy]

Hi CC43,

Thanks for your input. I see your strategy saves you from a lot of trouble, but your approach is still tiptoeing around the problem and not actually negotiating it.

I have been recalling the times in which I had successfully negotiated. Usually they happened when she really wanted something from me, and I had been making myself distant for a certain period, so she wanted closeness. Yet, I had to use lots of positive strategies to make the conversation work. But yes, I did negotiate many things over those years. My mistake was that I didn't record the agreements, so some time later she denied having agreed. Now I always record it on video. Otherwise she just says she agrees without actually planning to stick to the agreement.

Today I will negotiate her adherence to the meds. That's not the typical type of negotiation in which I get something out of it, but she does. If the meds are effective in reducing her aggressiveness for one full month, then I would negotiate about accepting her back home. And if she gets into a good mental state and fulfills my conditions, in the very end I also benefit.

Any further suggestions, someone?

[CC43]

Hi CC43,

My mistake was that I didn't record the agreements, so some time later she denied having agreed. Now I always record it on video. Otherwise she just says she agrees without actually planning to stick to the agreement.

Any further suggestions, someone?

Well, in my experience I can record agreements, but reneging is all too common.  Even if I show written "proof" of the agreement, they'll refuse to look at it ("I don't want to look at that" is the normal response), and if they do deign to look at it, they will rip it up.  My presentation of any proof gets weaponized, and I'm attacked for being a *itch, for daring to show papers/text/emails as evidence.

So I guess my experience with "negotiation" is to assume that reneging will happen.  In practice that means that if I make any grand gestures or investments, I have to view them as a sunk cost.  Alternatively, I might proceed in small steps, and ensure they hold up their end of the agreement before proceeding an additional step.  At this very moment I have a grumpy partner complaining that there's no food in the house, as it's his turn to go to the grocery, and he has put it off.  He doesn't want to go, and he thinks if he complains loudly enough and blames me, I'll relent and go myself.  It happens practically every time it's his turn to go to the grocery.  I'll remind him that I went last week, and he'll deny it.  Then I'll "prove" it to him, pointing out that everything we ate at dinner last night I bought at the market last week.  But proving it to him just makes him madder, because he doesn't want to do the shopping.  Same old, same old.

[Mutt]

I might be off here, so take this as just my perspective.

When I read through this, I can really relate to the exhaustion behind it. Trying to figure out how to bring things up without setting off a chain reaction is draining. Most of us here have tried some version of timing it right, softening it, waiting a day or two, picking the “least explosive” wording. That part makes sense to me.

Where I get a little cautious for myself is when things start turning into strategy and leverage. Recording agreements, negotiating meds, tying behavior to conditions - I understand why that happens. When things feel chaotic, structure feels safer. I’ve been there. But for me, once I’m at that point, it doesn’t feel like partnership anymore. It feels like containment.

I’m not saying don’t have boundaries. Boundaries matter. And stepping away when someone is dysregulated is healthy. But I’ve had to ask myself at times: am I trying to negotiate a solution, or am I trying to manage the volatility?

There’s a difference.

Sometimes the deeper question isn’t “How do I bring this up without triggering them?” but “What kind of dynamic am I actually in, and what does that mean for what’s realistically possible?”

Just my two cents. I respect the thought you’ve put into it.