Deindividuation, high functioning borderlines, and long distance relationships

[push pull]

Deindividuation is a psychological term, which refers to the phenomenon of a person losing their inhibitions because they can't be identified or caught. Examples of how a person can become deindividuated is when they turn into internet trolls, or participate in a riot with a crowd.

Deindividuation may explain the behaviours of a high functioning borderline in a long distance relationship. For instance, if their S/O lives in another city, no one from the borderline's town/city knows the S/O, meaning they have no one to run to or nowhere to hide, which makes it all the more tempting for a HFBPD to victimize them.

If the high functioning borderline doesn't have any personal ties with the long distance S/O's family or friends, then the HFBPD isn't going to care about what these people think when they abuse their isolated target because they know it's highly unlikely that the S/O's friends and family from their home city/town are going travel so far to take punitive action against them.

The HFBPD knows that when their S/O travels long distance to see them, the S/O's are going to be reluctant to speak their minds for fear of being ejected from the house and being made to travel all the way home again. As a personal example, when i traveled a 100 miles to see my ex and she began acting out, I told her, 'I'm leaving', she smirked at me and said, 'Goodbye. Shut the door on your way out'. But it was too late for me to get my train back home, so i was stranded. She knew it.

The HFBPD usually has an immediate circle of family and friends in their hometown, which means that it is even more intimidating for the target to stand their ground if they know that the HFBPD has people close by who will jump to their aid the moment they play the victim card. I remember my ex was acting out again and she took a hairbrush with metallic bristles and whacked me in the knee with it, leaving lots of tiny cuts. I confronted her and told her to stop it immediately, then she started taunting me and said, 'What are you going to do about it? Remember... .if you touch me, I'll go and get my two brothers and all of their friends'.

Now, prior to me coming across the deindividuation phenomenon, I was talking to my very smart friend about my ex. I told him about her rebounding with a guy from her town, and I said that he is going to fall just like all the rest. My friend said, 'I doubt that. She's not going to be so stupid to sh!t on her own doorstep. Too many people know her and her reputation is at stake.' I didn't really understand this at the time, but my friend seemed to instinctively know how deindividuation works, and under what circumstance. This may well explain why her and the guy after me have so far lasted, whereas she has tortured every guy she's ever met off the internet... .because she could.

Another interesting point to make in regards to this subject; I previously mentioned how I caught my ex lurking on my fb friendlist five months after the end of the r/s. When I checked out this secret account, I saw some seriously disgusting posts aimed at people who she'd friended. Now, this fake account of hers was an outlet for her to express her dark side, without fear of being recognized or caught. Yet she behaves like an angel on her authentic facebook account because her friends and family are on there, and I guess she has too much to lose letting everyone know what she's really like deep down.

[2010]

Deindividuation is a psychological term, which refers to the phenomenon of a person losing their inhibitions because they can't be identified or caught.

I know you are searching out the answers here, but Deindividuation actually happens to all of us. It is a group effect, meaning it occurs when one "follows the crowd." Another way of explaining it is "Herd mentality."

For example: The posted speed limit on a highway is 55 mph, and you normally follow the speed limit- but one afternoon you notice several cars speeding by. Deindividuation theory states that in spite of your sworn adherence to the speed limit, you may press the pedal to the medal to fit into the faster pace because cars are passing you, cars are coming up from behind and passing you and cars ahead are leaving you in the dust. By the very nature of the crowd determining the pace you drive, you now are showing signs of ":)eindividuation" by following what the crowd does. (This is not a personality disorder, but a component of Human nature.)

Examples of how a person can become deindividuated is when they turn into internet trolls

Again, it takes a crowd for group effects to emerge and deindividuation to occur. Cyber Narcissists, on the other hand, don't need a crowd so much as they need a "pathological Narcissistic space." A PNS is a place where the false self can blossom.  The Internet is a perfect PNS, because it is an extension of their home space without the "risks, injuries and disappointments" that can occur in their own backyard.

The false self on the Internet has a function; it is to act as a decoy personality that attracts the "fire" while simultaneously protecting the true self from the flames. "He can then fend off criticism, abuse, disagreement, and disapproval effectively and in real time while simultaneously preserving the precarious balance of his infantile personality. Cluster B are therefore, prone to internet addiction. In the virtual universe of the Web, the cyber-Narcissist vanishes and reappears with ease, often adopting a myriad of aliases and nicknames."

Deindividuation may explain the behaviours of a high functioning borderline in a long distance relationship.

Pathological yearning through Fantasy expectations of *both* people explain the behavior of cluster B long distance relationships. Cluster B people often prefer to indulge themselves (and others) with grandiose fantasy- but in reality, such a fantasy life cannot be maintained because it is the muddled substitute for true coping on a day to day basis. Without the ability to handle everyday stress, the false self seeks gratification from outside sources that are plentiful on the Internet.

Borderline personality disorder has a fusional quality for both people involved. Utilizing long distance allows for projective identification as well as mirroring.  When it gets broken (as it always does because it is unrealistic) both parties wonder what happened to the fantasy.

Unfortunately, a Cluster B person acts out in retaliation because they were scapegoated as children. Beliefs are never divorced from strong emotions to a Borderline and anyone threatening that belief (that they are not to blame) will be attacked and scapegoated as well.  

This is a disorder- it works with fantasy. Long distance partners are chosen because they present less of a threat to the fantasy and are easier to maintain at a distance.

[sm15000]

Deindividuation, high functioning borderlines, and long distance relationships

I think deindividuation is a separate issue but my ex was a HF BPD/NPD.  We had a relationship overall for 13 years but we never lived together, lived 15 miles apart. 

When we met he lived with his ex - relationship was a disaster but there was a child, he had serially cheated on her throughout.   Over a few years we saw each other weekly and then he 'officially' ended it with her.  Until our relationship ended we saw each other twice a week, had extra nights together when possible and went on breaks and fabulous holidays when possible.  A romantic fantasy

I actually used to strongly defend the way we handled our relationship when people used to say you can't really know somebody until you live together  because we both had a lot on our plates. . .he had two children, was a carer for his brother with learning difficulties and a full time job. . .i was a parent - first at University and then a full time job too.  What i suppose i didn't notice was beyond a certain stage it never really developed.

Borderline personality disorder has a fusional quality for both people involved. Utilizing long distance allows for projective identification as well as mirroring.  When it gets broken (as it always does because it is unrealistic) both parties wonder what happened to the fantasy.

In the last couple of years we started talking about living together when the kids were grown sort of thing. . .it was mentioned right up until the end. . .and he actually started dropping strange marriage 'hints' (pull) at the same sort of time he was dysregulating, cheating and avoiding having to spend any extra time with me (push).

I felt the harsh realisation that it may have been all 'just a fantasy' even before i ended it. . .i told him i felt all he really wanted was the romance, the lust, the fantasy, the rush - he didn't want to know the real person. . .he reacted like he'd been punched in the face - i hope one day he has the capacity to think about it

[avoidatallcost]

I've never had a long distance r/s with a BP, but I think individuation can keep their behaviors in check for only so long.  Sooner or later their craziness will come out.  There's lots of reasons why BP's can hide their insanity for long periods with some partners but not with others.  

My 25 yr old ex was able to maintain a 5 year relationship in her teens.  In her early 20's, she had another one for 2 years.  And this was BEFORE she was medicated or in therapy.  I think that first poor guy probably suffered more than any of her other bf's with the exception of me of course.  I think I suffered the most, but then again who knows I wasn't there.  Now I don't know how these guys did it for so long, I was with my ex for a year and I think I started going crazy about 3 months in.  

With me, things got really insane because she was always reluctant to make us "official" even though she told me she was in love with me, which I actually believe she did in a very sick way or else the hater phase probably never would have happened.  This lack of having common friends no doubt made her act extra crazy with me, so there's no doubt that individuation comes into play with BP insanity.  But regardless, all the other guys probably suffered just as much as I did in the end, if not more.

[Intime]

Hi All:

Just when I thought I was getting a grip on the disorder of BPD, I read something that totally threw me for a loop on this subject board.  ":)EINDIVIDUATION", can BPD's really pick and choose who they physically and mentally abuse?  Some of their partners get it and other's do not.  I was under the assumption that they could not control these urges and that most everyone is eventually treated pretty much the same "like dirt".

After reading the first article on this topic, maybe these BPD people are more cunning and smarter than we think.  If they can consciously choose who gets abused and who doesn't, then I really don't feel very sorry for them.  I do remember my ex saying that he never physically abused his former girlfriend, only verbal. I assumed it was because she worked for the court system, and he was aware that she knew judges and prosecutors who could put his behind in jail.

Maybe I have totally underestimated this disease/disorder and these PEOPLE! I got it all physical and verbal - - what am I putting out that would attract all of this abuse?  I AM REALLY CONFUSED   ? NOW, WOULD ANYONE CARE TO COMMENT ON THIS ":)EINDIVIDUATION" PLEASE.

Now, prior to me coming across the deindividuation phenomenon, I was talking to my very smart friend about my ex. I told him about her rebounding with a guy from her town, and I said that he is going to fall just like all the rest. My friend said, 'I doubt that. She's not going to be so stupid to sh!t on her own doorstep. Too many people know her and her reputation is at stake.' I didn't really understand this at the time, but my friend seemed to instinctively know how deindividuation works, and under what circumstance. This may well explain why her and the guy after me have so far lasted, whereas she has tortured every guy she's ever met off the internet... .because she could.

Thank You for listening,

INTIME

P.S.--I hope I placed the quoted paragraph above, correctly - - I am new at this.

[avoidatallcost]

Hi All:

Just when I thought I was getting a grip on the disorder of BPD, I read something that totally threw me for a loop on this subject board.  ":)EINDIVIDUATION", can BPD's really pick and choose who they physically and mentally abuse?  Some of their partners get it and other's do not.  I was under the assumption that they could not control these urges and that most everyone is eventually treated pretty much the same "like dirt".

After reading the first article on this topic, maybe these BPD people are more cunning and smarter than we think.  If they can consciously choose who gets abused and who doesn't, then I really don't feel very sorry for them.  I do remember my ex saying that he never physically abused his former girlfriend, only verbal. I assumed it was because she worked for the court system, and he was aware that she knew judges and prosecutors who could put his behind in jail.

Maybe I have totally underestimated this disease/disorder and these PEOPLE! I got it all physical and verbal - - what am I putting out that would attract all of this abuse?  I AM REALLY CONFUSED   ? NOW, WOULD ANYONE CARE TO COMMENT ON THIS ":)EINDIVIDUATION" PLEASE.

Oh wow Intime, if what you say is true here about some BP's treating their partners well while abusing others, than it would completely revolutionize the way I think about people with this disorder!  I would definitely have MUCH LESS empathy for these people.  But what you say here makes a lot of sense, which is why I brought this topic up in the thread entitled ":)o BP's Treat Some Partners Better Than Others."  Before reading your post here, I at least had a little comfort in the expectation that my replacement was destined to meet the same fate as I did, however now I'm a little worried here that this might not be the case!

This is kind of how I was feeling already, that BP's do indeed treat some partners better than others.  Mind you, I'm still under the impression that BP's will destroy all their relationships in the end...  But do they really treat some partners better than others?  Are they really capable of maintaining reasonably stable relationships with a certain kind of partner?  It would defintely make sense, which is why so few people here have reported that their replacements have parted ways with their BP exes.

[push pull]

Apologies to all who were confused by my thread. I think 2010 cleared it up pretty well and used the appropriate term - 'pathological narcissistic space'.

I began reading about the deindividuation phenomenon in an article online. The article used the term to describe how normally well behaved people can misbehave when they are caught up within the herd mentality. The article also used the term to explain the behaviour of an individual internet troll misbehaving under the guise of anonymity. So when I read the article, I noticed the parallels between the behaviour of a troll and how my ex behaved towards me because there were certain conditions she was operating under which enabled her to misbehave and get away with it (as I explained in each paragraph of my thread).

In time, I was referring to a high functioning borderline - the type of BPD who are known to conceal their illness in front of others by conveying a sociable, friendly front, but behind closed doors they make their illness known to people who they are intimately close to.

Perhaps with partners who have stronger boundaries, the illness is concealed for longer because the HFBPD knows that they can't overtly control them, in which case the HFBPD may revert to covert control via passive aggressive tactics to gradually wear their more dominant target down. This may explain why the new partner appears to be treated better than everyone else because the relationship lasts longer, thus providing the impression that the HFBPD is miraculously cured and it was us with the problem all along. But it may be just a matter of time before the next person meets the same fate as everyone else beforehand. The stories I've read on these boards certainly seem to be testimony of this -- even people who have been in an r/s with these people for decades still speak of the hell they were put through over the years.

[Sir5r]

I think they abuse those that allow the abuse. Since they are e

Emotionally children they push the boundaries constantly and need to be "put in their place" through tools like SET.

Regarding "pathological narcissistic space" and "deindividuation" if your talking about inappropriate social behavior the reason for that is probably some form of release.

Think about it. Many BPDs and NPD's have other lives. My father, an NPD, had many mistresses we were all supposed to not know about that he spent time with and during that time basically forgot about his family. I have an aunt, a textbook BPD, that used to allow herself to get caught nude by a boarder who was much younger than her. Once saying "c'mon let's have some fun and make my husband jealous. I know this because he told me so.

Secret lives, they are a way to control someone. You have the secret in common.

This is exactly how my wife got me when we started dating.  We were both seeing others and the secretivenesss bonded us at that time. 

Anonymity allows someone to do things that would not be normally accepted in their public social group.  "alternative" lifestyles functioned in the same manner.  Think of being gay before it was as accepted as is is today and going to a bar were you would meet those with the same ideals.  How many patrons of clubs like these are not openly gay or may even be in a traditional marraige?

The secretiveness gives a sense of belonging, something BPDs crave, and that is obtained without intimacy, their biggest fear.

Sir5r

[sm15000]

'pathological narcissistic space'

I think my ex's PNS was his workplace. . .he is a University Lecturer.  His work not only gives him status and respect, he has had a constant supply of female students of which to have both emotional and physical affairs with over the 20 years he has been in the job.  

In fact, i know he started noticing recently that many lecturers had gone on to achieve more than he had professionally and academically e.g. higher degrees, published papers etc. . .he didn't like this    -  I also think (although he is still a very good looking man for 53) that it has dawned on him that he won't have his pulling power for ever.  He also used the job as a means of justifying his involvement with other women - 'he's just helping out his students to progress', or 'when have i got time to have an affair'    

So. . .he has sensed his PNS is no longer providing the ego boost it used to give him.  Answer (for him) = drink, drugs, shagging, porn use !  Anything to feed the supply and try and alleviate the depression.

[diotima]

Now, prior to me coming across the deindividuation phenomenon, I was talking to my very smart friend about my ex. I told him about her rebounding with a guy from her town, and I said that he is going to fall just like all the rest. My friend said, 'I doubt that. She's not going to be so stupid to sh!t on her own doorstep. Too many people know her and her reputation is at stake.'

I wouldn't count on this, i.e., that she is not so stupid to ___ on her own doorstep. It is true that the HF ones especially are very concerned about their reputations and are good at manipulating circumstances, but my HFex routinely ___ on his own doorstep when he dysregulated, e.g., serial cheating with the wrong people (professional contacts). It is only because he has a tenured position that he has safety. It is true that they can be cunning but all bets are off when they dysregulate.

Diotima

[Sir5r]

Mine was very good at protecting her reputation.  She has a lifetime of experience at it.  The only time I know she gets into trouble is when she is drinking.  That's when she loses control and "sh@ts where she eats" as they say.  She tends to get to "close" to other men and things happen... .   

A little background information is in order. Growing up my wife prided herself on being the most desirable girl in her group of friends. She claims to have dated two guys in the group she ran with.  I realize now after all these years she most likely used that desirability as leverage to get what she wanted. 

Drugs, money, concert tickets whatever.  Since she has selective memory when it comes to the truth I depend more on I see others react to her.

Well, one night she had a "reunion" of sorts to go to, it was at a bar where she was from. She drank a bit too much. I was talking with someone and I noticed she wasn't around.  Well, I walked the bar. Checked the bathrooms and finally I saw an old phone booth.  There was a couple inside really close together.  My wife and an old friend were in there, doing cocaine and other things. She claims nothing happened other than that.  I would take her for her word if she wasn't a BPD and


The fact her "friend" had his "schwanzen" out.

This was a year ago in the midst of her BPD peaking, I let it go.

That's what happens in "pathological narcissistic space," the sneaky child in them runs off to do something that "mommy or daddy" wouldn't approve of.

Only we are their patent figures now.

There are plenty of things that my wife has told me she has done.  None of them that would have given me a glimpse into what she really was about were ever said until we were married with children and leaving would have been complicated.

I don't even know whether to consider the telephone booth incident cheating. We were in a bad way at that time.  She is mentally ill.  Things have gotten better.

I guess we all have to figure out what we will accept.  I do think my wife's definition of sex is the same as Bill Clinton's though.  LOL

Sir5r

[Belka]

The internet addiction thing makes sense. In doing some assessing, I realized that my ex-friend is a bit internet addicted, as well as his new girlfriend. Neither of them do much socializing outside of social networking sites. New girlfriend's preoccupation is pretty obvious; almost every time I've seen her in public, she keeps her nose buried in her iPhone. My ex-friend seems to be using the internet, especially Facebook, as his "pathological narcissistic space." He spends at least four hours a day online and likes to make very strongly political posts. I think some of it is for attention, to argue with someone about politics, but I think a lot of it is to "prove" his integrity- to show that he's a guy who really stands up for his beliefs. But, in real life, he does no volunteer work, organizing, or any other participation.

Several months ago, he got irritated about something and when anyone mentioned contacting him on Facebook, he would proclaim, "You know, I'm MORE than just my Facebook profile!" I must've heard him say it at least five times that week. I didn't really think about it at the time, but I don't know anyone who spends more time on Facebook than he does, except maybe his current girlfriend.

I think my BPD can't decide where his doorstep is because he keeps pooping everywhere. First, it was my workplace, then it was our friendship, I think. Now it's his Facebook page and his new relationship that he's keeping clean... .for now.