coparenting class and rumors

[whirlpoollife]

My new attorney had said a GAL should of never been appointed. But, with the GAL,came a court ordered class  for the parents. A seven week course on how to be a good parent and coparent. I had signed up when required, stbxh did not and had to be told from the custody master.  We take the class at different times but I know he missed the first class.  The two teachers are very headstrong. They wanted the ones in the class who had an ex who was to have kids visitation on their class time to have the other parent (me) to "compromise" and give him visitation on another time to make up for time he is in class. "we are all adults here and should be able to do that, and not have to go back to court over and over again f or every little thing"     I knew the consequences, but was afraid of a backlash from the teacher/and h could possible use it against me later. I gave h extra time later in the evening.  Next thurs he was to have kids, was an hour late, (no class, just late)he wanted extra time after the 9 pm finish. I gave an inch he wants a mile. i said NO. I have more classes to take, how can  I explain that compromising doesn't work in my case. do I even bother to explain? Im trying to suck it up and learn something but I find the class humiliating.  my marriage was abusive and teachers treat their students as idiot parents/spouses.

Added note, Im the one who filed for divorce. the rumor h is spreading is ,   the reason he had to leave the marriage is because I was cheating on him.   So far from the truth! It brought me down to hear that and from who and where it was heard from. The one who told me about is  reputable.  Do I say something to s14 and d12 about this? in detail or just say there are rumors that aren't true or do I tell them their dad is spreading the rumors .  It is so degrading and hurtful, (that's why h does it) I have to defend myself in someway. any man I speak to will automatically be culprit (like it has been for 27 yrs with h) so how do I deal with that when kids or anyone else see me?

[Forward2free]

My advice is to always take the high road.

BPD/Nxh sent text messages to all of my friends, family, clients and collegues over Christmas a few years ago and told them he was a loving father to our children, loved me, and was so hurt by the affair I was having, and asked the recipients to help him break up the affair and bring his family back together. My boss called me that day to tell me what she'd received and asked me what she could do to help.

I believe my character and my values were not questionned, and what I found out over the following weeks and months was that my embarrasment was nothing compared to the disregard for BPD/Nxh. His response was so little that he sent it 3 more times to the same, and new people, getting the numbers from my phone bill. He was the one having the affairs and yet he was desparately trying to deflect his bad character onto me.

I simply told those who asked me that although my marriage was having problems, I was always faithful, in fact, to the day I divorced. It may not have meant anything to others, but my children and my family, friends etc know the truth.

Stand firm, if the kids ask you anything, tell them the truth, about you, not him. Don't try to explain his behaviour or defend any conversation you have with a man in the future. Maybe let the kids know that dad might have said those things because he was angry. Let him answer to them about why. His behaviour is not your responsibility.

[Matt]

Next thurs he was to have kids, was an hour late, (no class, just late)he wanted extra time after the 9 pm finish. I gave an inch he wants a mile. i said NO.

Don't obsess too much about an hour here or there.  :)o what you think is reasonable and stop.  In the grand scheme of things an hour probably doesn't matter as much as establishing reasonably functional ways of dealing with your ex, which probably means giving in sometimes, saying no some other times, and not arguing about stuff.

I have more classes to take, how can  I explain that compromising doesn't work in my case. do I even bother to explain?

It might be good practice, to explain your decisions to the teachers, so that you feel good about your decisions and do a good job of explaining them.  Ultimately, these are your decisions - unless the court issues an order - you might get some good ideas from the teachers, but I don't think they can do anything to you if they disagree.  You have to take the class, but I don't think you hand over all decision-making to the teachers.

One thing we hear a lot from those who haven't walked a mile in our shoes is "compromise" - as if it's a virtue in itself.  Compromises can be good or bad - depends on the specifics.  I try to think in terms of "solutions" - approaches that will work out well - which may or may not be halfway between the two parties' first ideas.  So maybe, instead of saying "compromise doesn't work", you can explain how your choices are good solutions to the problems at hand... .  ?

Im trying to suck it up and learn something but I find the class humiliating.  my marriage was abusive and teachers treat their students as idiot parents/spouses.

Sounds unpleasant, but can you just sit politely and get any value you can out of it, til it's over?  Maybe those teachers are wise and experienced, or maybe they're not, but in any case, the class is only a few hours.

Added note, Im the one who filed for divorce. the rumor h is spreading is ,   the reason he had to leave the marriage is because I was cheating on him.   So far from the truth! It brought me down to hear that and from who and where it was heard from. The one who told me about is  reputable.  :)o I say something to s14 and d12 about this? in detail or just say there are rumors that aren't true or do I tell them their dad is spreading the rumors .  It is so degrading and hurtful, (that's why h does it) I have to defend myself in someway. any man I speak to will automatically be culprit (like it has been for 27 yrs with h) so how do I deal with that when kids or anyone else see me?

When we separated, my wife told some serious lies to the kids (S8, D10, SD17, SS29) and to her family:  I had assaulted her, I was cheating on her, I wasn't paying the mortgage or giving any money to her - all false.

It's really hard to follow up and tell every person the truth.  They don't want to be caught in-between, and they don't know what to believe.  Ultimately I did tell her family the truth, and I think they believed me, but blood is thicker than water, and those relationships haven't been the same since.  My kids I handled each separately, what I thought was best for each kid:  "I know Momma has told some people that I hurt her - that's why the police were here that night - but I want you to know that I have never hurt Momma and I never would hurt her or anybody else."  More information for the older kids.

They all listened and said OK but didn't know how to deal with it, and I let it go.  It was important to me that they hear it straight from me, so they wouldn't be left with just the one story.  But I had to let go of my hopes that they would say "I believe you Dad."  (Over the years some of them have gotten there but others may never say it.)

It's natural to want complete vindication but that probably won't happen.  One more thing we have to accept... .  

[whirlpoollife]

Reason why I said no to more time after 9 was he makes us wait in half hour incriments for pick up. I'm at the meeting spot on time, then he's late, half hour, then we get ready to go again, another half hour, then another half hour. Friday night, for his pick up time it went on for three hours.    Its like this everytime for his time for kids.  When he lived with me and wanted the kids, I would get FYI texts telling me he has kids such and such a time with no care of my thoughts, or tell me where he was going with them. So it might seem like I'm not flexable,  its the orders can give me a little backbone, if I explained that right.

I wish I could sit quietly in class,  the teachers ask questions to each student for two hours.  Maybe my lesson learned will be impromtu speech as I have a hard time talking still.     

Good perspectives on it , thanks.

Thanks for your stories on rumors, nice to know I'm not alone and its to be expected.

[tog]

I'm confused on why you are waiting for 3 half-hour increments... .  can you clarify what you mean? Is there a way to say, "You are late, we are leaving," in a way that's fair to you? And how old are your kids?

My SO's stbxw loves to play games whenever there is a change in the schedule. For example the other night he tried to call SS (she blocks access) and she refused to tell SS to call, she wanted SO to call her phone first.

He ignored after the second request for her to ask SS to call and lo and behold, she had him call (3 hours later, but still).  He could have gone along and called her phone, but that rewards her game-playing.

Their coparent counselor suggests no changes to the schedule as it breeds conflict. Can you say that in the class? "We've found that any changes create conflict?" Those classes aren't set up for high-conflict people anyway.

[Matt]

For dropping the kids off, I think it's common to have a window, like maybe 15 minutes, and if he doesn't meet you, you take the kids home.

For picking the kids up, I think it's important to have very firm times, at first, and always be on time.  Wait a few minutes - maybe 15 - and then call your lawyer or the police, to get the order enforced, or to document that you tried to pick them up.  Always have a copy of the court order with you so you can show the police that you are right to be picking them up, and immediately send your lawyer an e-mail documenting that you tried to pick them up and they weren't there.

[DreamGirl]

I wish I could sit quietly in class,  the teachers ask questions to each student for two hours.  Maybe my lesson learned will be impromtu speech as I have a hard time talking still.

It's hard when someone (the teacher) is telling us to compromise with someone who tries to take miles when we're only willing to give inches.

You're trying to set limits so that you don't get railroaded, which is new for you since your marriage consisted of a completely opposite dynamic. His pushback is to be expected as he has to learn to adapt.

I think what's difficult for a lot of parents in divorce is that kids cause this constant need for ongoing interaction - and when one parent is willing to use a kiddo to engage in conflict, it becomes a tightrope walk in decreasing the conflict and still doing what's best for the kiddos.

I wanted to encourage you to maybe look at these classes in a different light - it's not really like when we were in school and we were being graded - you can't really "fail". I've worked in children's advocacy (for kid's of neglect, abuse, and high-conflict divorces/parenting) and these types of classes were a big part of it. There has been a lot of research and effort put into these kinds of programs - and when you are being court-ordered to attend these classes, I think there is value in that. They are designed not only to assess the situations but to assist you in it. I also know that in my own experience with the cases that I helped oversee, the most successful were the ones where the parents were able to put their best efforts forward - I don't know that your husband can do that, but I certainly feel that you can.

Bill Eddy, LCSW, Esq, the author of Splitting, advocates a very similar program on his website (www.highconflictinstitute.com) called "New Ways for Families" that has 5 goals:

1.To immunize families against becoming high-conflict families during the separation and the divorce process.

2.To help parents teach their children resilience in this time of huge and rapid change in the foundation of their family life

3.To strengthen both parent's abilities to make parenting decisions, while relying less on experts and the courts to make their decisions for them.

4.To assist professionals and the courts in assessing both parent's potential to learn new, positive ways of problem-solving and organizing their family after a separation or divorce.

5.To give parents a chance to change poor parenting behaviors (including abuse and alienation) before long-term decisions are made. This method emphasizes learning new skills for positive future behavior.    

whirlpoollife, I know that you can't control him and being expected to find some kind of common ground seems unlikely. It can be very humiliating when it feels like someone is telling you - "oh settle down, and get along." The goal however is not so much about that - but more about letting whatever happened in the marriage be over. The act of divorce is what is going to let him know that you no longer have to be in a relationship with him where he gets to treat you poorly. It's more about moving forward in a new skill set.

Unfortunately with having the other parent being mentally ill, the bulk of that burden falls on the parent who is not. These classes can help you in that. Learn how to emotionally disconnect and turn the relationship to be solely about the kids.

~DreamGirl

[ForeverDad]

I wish I could sit quietly in class,  the teachers ask questions to each student for two hours.  Maybe my lesson learned will be impromtu speech as I have a hard time talking still.

It's hard when someone (the teacher) is telling us to compromise with someone who tries to take miles when we're only willing to give inches.

And it's hard to speak out and state that the advice given works in most cases but not all and that yours will be or has been an exception.  You'll be advised to try again, try harder, do it better, etc.  At some point you need to state you did try and it didn't work.  Whether it is best to state this during class or afterward may be up to you to determine.

My ex also has a problem with timing.  Not the timeing itself, she's probably less time-challenged than I am.  I'm talking about making it an issue.  If I'm late, even a little, then she (or son) says "you're late".  If she's late, she admits nothing as though it never happened.

I think you need to make clear that the half-hour extensions don't tack on sequentially without limit.

My old county guideline had stated a half hour was the time window and if later then the late parent needed to contact the other and state the expected time and that reasons were limited such as for traffic congestion, inclement weather, etc.

The new one dropped the half hour time window reference for "expected to be prompt".  Ah, there's that vagueness again.

[stuckinbetween]

Dear Whirlpool,

I wonder how many of these teachers have been educated in the relationship dynamics of being married to an NPD, BPD, or other mentally ill partners.  There is little doubt that h could benefit from the class more than you, but being an NPD he "knows" more than the experts. 

I would definitely explain your side to the kids every time he tries to poison them with his lies.  Same with friends and family---but without his vitriol.  I wish I'd done that with my mother-in-law from the start, but by now she's believed so much of his poison, she hates me.  This after a 30 yr. marriage.  Sad, but another thing I have to let go of.

Stuckinbetween

Give the instructors a copy of ":)ivorce Poison" as a parting gift.

[DreamGirl]

And it's hard to speak out and state that the advice given works in most cases but not all and that yours will be or has been an exception.  You'll be advised to try again, try harder, do it better, etc.  At some point you need to state you did try and it didn't work.  Whether it is best to state this during class or afterward may be up to you to determine.

Also be mindful that if you are determined that it won't work - it probably won't.

It probably isn't the absolute solution to every problem, so try not to place that kind of value in it (and that kind of failure) because even one skill in dealing with your ex makes it successful.  

[whirlpoollife]

":)ivorce Poison" as a parting gift. 

tog, though the kids he tells them the pickup time. im ready to go on the time for regular pick up ,then son says oh dad texted and says he will be an hour late. An hour later, we are ready to go and H texts son that its another half hour. Ready to go, again same. I text and H's answer is same.   Time comes to go, a new time is said. H has work that could put him behind, no problem with a normal person. I'm passively easy going. But I know he can be on time if he wants and he also knows when he will be done. Return of kids, no major lateness. but I will make a copy of the court orders to keep in vehicle.

I don't have that bad of an attitude of the class, frustrated to have take it on account of h.  I've lost needed work because of it. I have done all the required homework, take notes and participate. The teachers required work in class that they compare to their other class, which has h in it. On another subject , I did get  an "atta girl" for going above and beyond in coparenting.

thank you all for your responses. I read them over more than once

[Matt]

So a boundary might be, "If you are late and let us know, and it's not more than an hour, we'll adjust.  But if it's more than an hour, or if you don't let us know, then the kids will stay with me."

Might be negotiable.  Setting such a boundary might at least get his attention - let him know that how it's working now isn't working for you and you are determined to reduce the chaos.

How would the kids react if you set some boundary so he has to pick them up on time or not at all?

[Fultus]

im ready to go on the time for regular pick up ,then son says oh dad texted and says he will be an hour late. An hour later, we are ready to go and H texts son that its another half hour. Ready to go, again same. I text and H's answer is same.

It sounds like a consequence is needed.  It's no different than setting rules for children.  If you say "no hitting" and then the child hits and the only consequence is another declaration of "no hitting", then the behavior will continue.  For your ex, you say "pick them up on time" then he doesn't, there has to be more than another chorus of "pick them up on time". 

Make sure you save copies of the text messages where he changes the time.  That is evidence that he is violating the court orders.  Time with the kids is great, but you also have a right to time away from the kids when you anticipate it. 

I would be curious how the teachers advise you on that scenario.  Moving the time back a half hour three times makes him an hour and a half late, not just 30 minutes. 

Good luck.

-Fultus