Testing boundries

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I need input and encouragement to keep this boundry.  My H is out of the house and while I hope to eventually rebuild a relationship (if he does some work too) I do not want him here right now.  He was abusive and controlling and at the end extremely depressed and threatening suicide.  Everyone I know is afraid I will let him come home too soon. 

I had some help from the prosecutor in a restraining order (hey, blame it on her!) but now it is up to me to make a choice and live with it.  He called last night and said he wanted to come home, sorry, etc.  You know the drill.  I told him that I do want to be a family again, but it has to be different.  He wanted to know in what way and I said that we need to work on our communication skills.  He told me that he has been telling me that for some time now.  Yeah, when he is screaming at me. 

Today I called him, not waiting for him to call me, took initiative, and told him that I am not ready for him to come home yet and that I wanted to meet with him with his counselor before we try getting back together.  He told me he was almost homeless (he is in a good home, he just doesn't like it), he is full of guilt, he is devastated, etc.  It was amazing how I could see so clearly now how each thing he tried was a manipulation to get me to let him come home. 

It is still all my fault- amazing how he can say that he is not putting it all on me and then does.  Big red flags to me, so I know I am doing the right thing.  But this is a first for me and I am needing to lean a little on people who understand- you guys. 

Before the call I re-read the workshop on boundries and I am working on putting on paper what I need and want.  All I can think of is an absence of abuse. 

How did you determine your boundries?  What helps you keep them in place?  Input?

[Mara2]

I need input and encouragement to keep this boundry.  My H is out of the house and while I hope to eventually rebuild a relationship (if he does some work too) I do not want him here right now.  He was abusive and controlling and at the end extremely depressed and threatening suicide.  Everyone I know is afraid I will let him come home too soon. 

I had some help from the prosecutor in a restraining order (hey, blame it on her!) but now it is up to me to make a choice and live with it.  He called last night and said he wanted to come home, sorry, etc.  You know the drill.  I told him that I do want to be a family again, but it has to be different.  He wanted to know in what way and I said that we need to work on our communication skills.  He told me that he has been telling me that for some time now.  Yeah, when he is screaming at me. 

Today I called him, not waiting for him to call me, took initiative, and told him that I am not ready for him to come home yet and that I wanted to meet with him with his counselor before we try getting back together.  He told me he was almost homeless (he is in a good home, he just doesn't like it), he is full of guilt, he is devastated, etc.  It was amazing how I could see so clearly now how each thing he tried was a manipulation to get me to let him come home. 

It is still all my fault- amazing how he can say that he is not putting it all on me and then does.  Big red flags to me, so I know I am doing the right thing.  But this is a first for me and I am needing to lean a little on people who understand- you guys. 

Before the call I re-read the workshop on boundries and I am working on putting on paper what I need and want.  All I can think of is an absence of abuse. 

How did you determine your boundries?  What helps you keep them in place?  Input?

[marbleloser]

It sounds like you handled it right.I read a good book,"Hope for the Seperated",when my X and I were just splitting up.It has some good ideas and insight in it. 

You're boundaries are things you don't want others to do to you,or something you don't approve of.I.e., being around someone on drugs,an alcoholic,letting someone rage or physically abuse you,not standing up for yourself or doing something you don't want to do.It's entirely up to you as to what you're boundaries are.Make a list of things you disapprove of and make a mental note of what you can do to protect yourself if someone crosses one of those boundaries.

Keeping them in place is just a decision.You have to decide that you won't tolerate certain behaviour.Think of it as your own personal set of rules.

Kinda like this:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=H85APaXrJ_Q

[Diligence]

Dear Mara2,

Safe People, by Drs. Henry Cloud and John Townsend, helps me recognize what qualifies as safety in relationships.  The book compares and contrasts the relational experiences of feeling better than or less than someone else.  With this idea in mind, it seems to me that any time I am invited to feel less than someone else (especially a person afflicted with BPD), I need to check my boundaries.  Everyone (especially myself) deserves to receive respect and forthrightness when interacting with others.

Our boundaries can be the fortress walls we use to guard our self-worth!  I encourage you to continue maintaining your boundaries.  : )

Warm regards,

Diligence

[Cumulus]

Hi Mara, for many years I would tell my xBPDh what my expectations were. There weren't very many. Don't yell at me, don't belittle me, don't argue with everything I say, be truthful and faithful. He said he would try, he said I deserved better, he said he wanted to be a loving husband, he said I was the best person in the world, and then it would begin again. This is what my life was. I was so busy looking after him, trying to teach him and care for him that I had no idea that boundaries even existed, let alone that I was entitled to have them. I certainly had the exact same question as you about boundaries once I was able to get away and have the energy and the time to think about myself.

I had to understand what was important to me, what I could tolerate and what I would no longer tolerate. This has to do with my beliefs, my dignity, and my sense of self. I will not allow myself to ever be yelled at again. I will never allow someone to manipulate me to their benefit. I will not tolerate repetitive lying. I expect that in any relationship I have, my opinion will be heard and considered.

Something I did that helped me to understand what was important to me was to create a mission statement for myself. I figured any place I worked had a mission statement and my life was more important then work so I needed a mission statement!  It did help me prioritize  what the most important things in life are to me, and helped me set some goals in order to attain or maintain those things.

Do you have children that are needing your care throughout this? Wishing you continued strength.

[Grey Kitty]

Mara2, Sounds like you took a big step here, being assertive and saying you weren't ready when he wanted to move back in.

It is still all my fault- amazing how he can say that he is not putting it all on me and then does.  Big red flags to me, so I know I am doing the right thing.  But this is a first for me and I am needing to lean a little on people who understand- you guys. 

... .  

How did you determine your boundries?  What helps you keep them in place?  Input?

I did find the boundary workshops very useful. It is possible to miss the part about starting with your values, the positive things that are important to you first, and then working toward the protective (but negative) boundaries you choose to enforce based on them. Don't forget about this.

"Not being abused" is the negative you wish to protect yourself from. What are the positive values that are important to you? For example, nurturing and caring for your children might be one.

Once you find your values, the next thing is not confusing a rule with a boundary. A rule is something you impose that your H can break or follow at his choice. A boundary is something that is up to you to enforce... .   it is by design, impossible for your H to stop YOU from enforcing YOUR boundary.

As for what keeps my boundaries in place... .   knowing that they make my life better compared to not having them. (My wife is better these days, they are seldom challenged now.)

[Mara2]

Thank you- this advice really helps.  Setting boundries is such a broad topic because humanity is so, so... .   different, varied, not sure of the word I want.  But everybody has to decide their own boundries, so there are no 10 easy lessons!  But for a person who has never set boundries, this can be rather daunting.  What do they look like?  How do you set them?  How do you keep them?  The answers have to be general because no one can tell you what YOURS will look like.  So it is a bit confusing. 

I like the idea of setting positive values first and will work on that.  Nurturing and caring for my children will be the first.  Deciding that I have value and deserve a safe environment will be two.  Actually, I think this is why I stood up and said you can't come home.  I did it more for my kids than me. 

Diligence, I will be looking for that book to read, I do like the authors and have read other things by them. 

Cumulus, I like the idea of a mission statement.  Like boundries, it feels a little out of my reach right now, but I am determined to get there.  

[Grey Kitty]

I like the idea of setting positive values first and will work on that.  Nurturing and caring for my children will be the first.  Deciding that I have value and deserve a safe environment will be two.

I've been on a lot of airplanes and heard the safety lecture there many times. Since I suspect you already know how to operate a seat belt  I'll skip that part... .  

Put your own oxygen mask on before assisting others. (I think of taking care of yourself as emotional oxygen)

That means that you need to put caring for Mara2 ahead of caring for your children, at least at the survival level. If you pass out from lack of oxygen yourself, you won't be able to care for them.

You need a safe environment first--If you don't have it, you can't nurture and protect your children there.

Actually, I think this is why I stood up and said you can't come home.  I did it more for my kids than me.

Either way... .   you did it.

So what do boundaries look like? Sometimes general answers are harder than examples. You mentioned being screamed at. In my case, the verbal abuse didn't involve screaming... .   more pushing my buttons until I did do the screaming. But I did recognize that there was verbal abuse going on, and that I needed a boundary to stop it.

Screaming leads to a simple and easy to define boundary:

I will not be verbally abused (or allow my children to be verbally abused or to witness the verbally abuse of me). When this starts, I will leave, and if appropriate, take my children with me.

Enforcing it has some options. You can start by saying "I will not stay here and be verbally abused." as you are getting ready to leave. He might immediately stop, possibly apologize, in which case you could choose to stay.

The next step is to leave the room.

If he tries to follow you through the house continuing the verbal abuse, leave the house. Drive away.

Note that enforcing the boundaries like this are all your actions and your choices. He isn't given a choice to obey or disobey your boundary. He can react (and likely will!) but these actions are yours.

If at any time he physically tries to stop you from leaving, that does qualify as physical abuse, and calling 9-1-1 is a good idea. If you are followed when driving away, a police station is a good destination.

With a restraining order, he shouldn't be close enough to yell at you face to face, so you won't have to do that sort of enforcement (at least for a while)

Enforcing the same boundary to end a verbally abusive phone call is easier. All have to do is say "I will not be verbally abused on the phone. Goodbye." and hang up.

Have you read the workshop yet?

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

[Mara2]

Wow, thank you so much.  This makes it more understandable for me. 

I did start leaving the room when he would start raging and verbal abuse.  Sometimes it worked, once he followed and kicked the bedroom door until I was trapped in there.  Not his intention, it was the result of his kicking the door. 

Once I tried to leave and while I was gathering up the kids to get them in the car he took all my money, credit/debit cards and any way to get money out of my purse without me knowing.  When I got to town I had nothing.  He then took all the money out of our account so I had nothing.  Thankfully for me, I have friends!  

His T is willing to be mediator between me and H when I give him my boundries.  She encouraged me to use concrete ideas since that would be what he could understand.  She also encouraged me not to let him come home before this happens so I am not stuck in the car with him afterward.  Good idea. 

The analogy of oxygen masks hit home- you are right of course. 

[laelle]

  Mara... . Your doing great 

You want to be in a relationship full of love and free from fear?

You want to be in a relationship where the lines of communication are open and everyone's thoughts and opinions are respected?

Your children are your world and have great value.  You want to be in a co parenting relationship where those values are shared by your partner?

[Grey Kitty]

Wow, thank you so much.  This makes it more understandable for me. 

 Glad to help!

I did start leaving the room when he would start raging and verbal abuse.  Sometimes it worked, once he followed and kicked the bedroom door until I was trapped in there.  Not his intention, it was the result of his kicking the door. 

Once I tried to leave and while I was gathering up the kids to get them in the car he took all my money, credit/debit cards and any way to get money out of my purse without me knowing.  When I got to town I had nothing.  He then took all the money out of our account so I had nothing.  Thankfully for me, I have friends!  

Yikes, that was nasty. If/When you let him move back, some simple precautions like hiding/stashing an overnight bag with clothes and a toothbrush (plus for your kids) and some money someplace safe, perhaps in your car at all times.

Another good precaution would be to make sure you have a bank account without his name on it.

His T is willing to be mediator between me and H when I give him my boundries.  She encouraged me to use concrete ideas since that would be what he could understand.  She also encouraged me not to let him come home before this happens so I am not stuck in the car with him afterward.

I'm not sure that having his therapist act as a mediator with regard to your boundaries is a good idea. Here are three big issues with it.

Your boundaries are yours, you enforce them (at least up to the point where you call in the police, then you get help). They are not negotiated with your H, and most importantly they shouldn't be "Rules" which he can choose to break or follow. (Remember, he has dysregulated raging episodes, where he will break all sorts of things.!)

This is his T, not yours, so she may have heard (untrue or true) things about you that would color her role in "mediation". I have no idea if she could be fair to you or not, especially before all is done. As his T, her professional ethics might even force her to take your H's side in some way.

If she does take your side... .   or even is impartial as opposed to taking his side... .   this could be the end of your H being willing to go to her as a therapist--I understand that when a pwBPD is in therapy, painting their therapist black is a big risk, and usually they never go back after that. So asking her to help support you in this (in front of your H) could blow up this way as well.

There is one other thing about your boundaries: You can choose to warn your H that you will enforce them. You can choose not to say anything about them. (You may make different choices for different boundaries) Since they are internal to YOU, when you decide to enforce them, it works either way.

I'm being really hard-nosed about the boundary thing here--Because they need to be YOURS if they are going to work for YOU. If you try to "negotiate" on boundaries, you are sure to lose that "negotiation".

Are there limits on how long your H can stay in his current environment? Does the restraining order have an expiration date? Or a court review date? It sounds like YOU feel safer with him away right now--how long is it possible / reasonable to stay that way?

Your original statement is a wonderful powerful one:

I told him that I do want to be a family again, but it has to be different.

Being different has two parts:

1. You can treat him differently and especially  react differently to him.

2. He can treat you differently.

Be strong. Make sure you both understand what is different before he moves back home with you.

[Blazing Star]

His T is willing to be mediator between me and H when I give him my boundries.  She encouraged me to use concrete ideas since that would be what he could understand.  She also encouraged me not to let him come home before this happens so I am not stuck in the car with him afterward.  Good idea. 

Grey Kitty has some great lightbulb points, I think it depends on the T though. And his relationship with the T - does he respect her and value her opinion? My partner really respects his, and I know (from how he relays things back to me sometimes) that there are things that she says or does that are for my and the relationships benefit. She is good at pulling him up on things, and he respects/trusts her enough to listen.

So if your partners T is someone that he trusts and you feel you would like some support then I think her presence could help.

I also know that for me, knowing the T is on my side as well as my partner's really helps. Sometimes I will time talking about things that I fear will trigger him with his appointments - like the day before, bc I know his T will help him through the triggering very well.

Boundaries can be scary, draw on your mama lion energy to make them. When I started making boundaries it was my daughter (then 2) who motivated me to be brave and empowered.

An exercise that also helped me was writing them on cards that I carried round with me for a few days - testing them out as such, a reminder.

You and your kids are worth looking after!

Love Blazing Star

[Mara2]

Grey Kitty, do not worry about being hard nosed, this is what I have been trying to find out. I take what you said about boundries being internal to heart.  Doing some soul searching on that.   

I am not too worried about his T because she was appointed by the crisis house where he was taken after arrested.  At first he said she was a ditz, but now he is going voluntarily.  I have spoken to her several times and she knows what is what.  Without telling me he had BPD she used all the language we have become familiar with here. 

I am not going to negotiate my boundries, but he has to know what they are and agree to respect them before he comes home.  If he does not agree to respect them, he has the coice not to come home.  The T thinks that he will not like it and I need another presence when I tell him.  It is for my safety.  Then she will work with him to understand them- they are not ultimatums nor rules to follow, but something to respect. 

Because I did not have any before, she told me I need  something concrete for him to be able to understand and for me to know what they are and stand firm on them.  That is what I am working on- my identity.

After the last time a military friend helped me put together a bug out bag for me and the kids.  I'm looking for a job and that money will go into my own account.  He will not like it, but that is the way it is going to be.

He has another court date on Tuesday and the prosecutor told me I have a lot of input on the restraining order.  She will pretty much do what I want.  H told me he would respect not coming home until I was ready for him even without a restraining order.  He can't get here on his own (no transport, no bus, too far to walk) so I feel pretty safe about that.  Still thinking this through.

As to being different, you are right.  I will treat him/react to him differently and he can decide if he wants to live with that.  Then I will not live with him unless he treats me differently. 

[Grey Kitty]

He has another court date on Tuesday and the prosecutor told me I have a lot of input on the restraining order.  She will pretty much do what I want.  H told me he would respect not coming home until I was ready for him even without a restraining order.  He can't get here on his own (no transport, no bus, too far to walk) so I feel pretty safe about that.  Still thinking this through.

I don't know much about restraining orders. If you have questions about how to handle one, I bet you will get better information on that by posting a thread on the Leaving Board: Family law, divorce and custody One thing I am pretty sure of is that you have a lot more latitude now before the court finishes with things than you will later... .   so educate yourself now.

One other idea... .   have you heard of Therapeutic Separation (link to the workshop here)? By definition, it is supervised by a therapist. You could ask his T if she could either do the supervision or recommend somebody for it.

[Blazing Star]

As to being different, you are right.  I will treat him/react to him differently and he can decide if he wants to live with that.  Then I will not live with him unless he treats me differently. 

You sound strong Mara! You are doing all the right things!

Love Blazing Star

[laelle]

How are you getting along Mara? 

[Mara2]

Thank you everyone SO MUCH for your support.  I can do this because I'm not alone.

Feeling very relieved now since the court appearance is over(it was this morning).  I asked the prosecutor to drop the no contact order so H can come to church, see the kids, I can take him grocery shopping for his new place, etc.  He agreed to stay at the home where he is until we are all ready to have him back.  He also agreed to stay in counseling and on his meds.  The prosecutor is keeping the trial date in place until she sees that he is keeping his promises and then, if he is moving forward, she will drop the charges against him. 

He told me his T told him he is not ready for me to come in to his sessions yet, that he is not taking responsibility for himself.  Soo, I have a reprieve and more time than I expected to work on my boundries, setting limits, etc.  Whew, I'm feeling so relieved.

I ordered the Essential Guide and have been reading and taking notes.  The Mood gym has been very helpful too.  I score low on depression, but mid range for anxiety.  Learning not to jump to conclusions! 

First lesson- thinking I had to be ready to set limits this week was erroneous.  His T told me that I would need to have them in place, but now I see she did not say I had to have them today.  That was my interpretation. 

Grey Kitty, I read the workshop on Theraputic seperation.  It is exactly what I want.  I will be talking to his T about it and see if she is willing to do this with us when he is ready. 

[laelle]

Wow Mara, You sound fantastic!    Its good to hear that your getting the support you need from your community, and that you H will have to deal with some of his

issues to be able to come home.  I know your happy that he is going to get the help he needs, and that you do have that time to figure out how you want to lead your

relationship.  I wish you all the best.  

[Mara2]

Thanks.  I still have butterflies in my stomach though!  I know I am doing the right thing, but old habits die hard.

[laelle]

Thanks.  I still have butterflies in my stomach though!  I know I am doing the right thing, but old habits die hard.

Aint that the truth.

[Grey Kitty]

  Mara2, you are sounding great! Keep on putting one foot in front of the other.

Grey Kitty, I read the workshop on Theraputic seperation.  It is exactly what I want.  I will be talking to his T about it and see if she is willing to do this with us when he is ready. 

Knowing what you want is a HUGE help. Now you just need to find the right team to do it and get all the pieces in place.

If you haven't read up on the treatment options for BPD, this article is a good start... .  

Treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder [New]

I hear more recommendations for DBT than anything else on these boards... .   Actually Schema sounds promising too, but last I heard there weren't very many resources for it in the USA.

The main thing is that you need the T managing the therapeutic separation to be familiar/knowledgeable/comfortable with treating BPD.

The prosecutor is keeping the trial date in place until she sees that he is keeping his promises and then, if he is moving forward, she will drop the charges against him.

What was that phrase again? Speak softly, but carry a big stick? There are a lot of advantages to letting the prosecutor hold the stick instead of you. How long does this stick stay in the air? In other words, when is the trial date?

[Mara2]

The trial is set for June.  The prosecutor thinks he will be ready for her to drop charges in late May. 

I got a call last night and H was really pushing for me to give him a time when he could come home.  He says he is feeling in limbo, which I understand, and he thinks that once I come to one of his counseling sessions all will be fine and he can just come home again. 

I asked myself this morning- Why am I anxious about telling him not to come home?  Answer- I'm afraid he will spiral back into depression.  Truth- I can't take responsibility for that.  That is the simple version of the discussion I had in my head.