It seems I find pleasure in doing this? Why?

[AliveButBeatup]

My BPD wife and I are separated. I filed for legal separation back in May. We had a period of reconciliation, errrr, recycle. I left her house with the few things I had left there a little over three weeks ago.  I have seen her once since then to pick-up a couple items.  I also dropped off shirts for her to mend that she wrecked in one of her rages. Why I did that, I am uncertain other than I just wanted to see what she would say.  Our meeting was brief with her showing a lot of anger and aloofness.  She told me there was no reason for her to mend the shirts as we were not together.  That was the kind of response I was expecting in that she would not take responsibility for damaging something from her rages.  I found solace in her response.  We have been NC for many days. Life has been peaceful for me.

Roll the clock forward a week and a half after that. I get a message from her oldest daughter that the shirts have been fixed and are ready to be picked up. I ignore the message. I get another message from my wife the shirts are ready to be picked up.  I ignore it as well for a few days and then send an e-mail to her. That starts a series of e-mail exchanges for 3 days and voice messages from her where she is saying how much she misses me. She wants me to come over and make love to her one last time. And then today it is the she was just a conquest for me. If I am reading the signs correctly we went from idealization to devaluation in the course of 3 days without me ever speaking to her or visiting her. Just through e-mails and her messages she left for me.  At this point she is to mail the shirts to me (we live about 30 minutes apart).  Perhaps she will have a rage again and wreck them before they are mailed.

As a side note, this woman has been physically abusive to me. Slapping, scratching, hitting, said she was going to rape me... .  Police have been called twice to intervene. One of her last e-mails was that she says she would never hurt me and I was never in danger.  I find the denial amazing.

This is the part I need to have an understanding of.  I felt I reached a point of apathy with this person through the days of NC. I had peace in my head. Why in the hell would I renegage through e-mail (sure glad I didn't speak with her voice or go there)?  I seem to get some pleasure from taunting and baiting her with what I say in my e-mails.  Perhaps it is revenge for all of the emotional crap I have been through with her.  I know I won't get genuine remorse, but it seems I try anyways. Why?  What is the point?

ABB

[StandUpGuy]

If you really want to know, it's most likely caused by the lack of love you felt between the ages of 5 & 8.  You unconsciously seek someone who will "kinda" love you. Until you talk to a therapist (phone therapy is only about $50-$75 per hour and Totally worth it) and start figuring YOU out... .you're never going to find anyone who you can truly be happy with. 

"Everything that troubles you comes solely from your inability or unwillingness to tell the truth. Either to others or to yourself."

[AliveButBeatup]

If you really want to know, it's most likely caused by the lack of love you felt between the ages of 5 & 8.  You unconsciously seek someone who will "kinda" love you. Until you talk to a therapist (phone therapy is only about $50-$75 per hour and Totally worth it) and start figuring YOU out... .you're never going to find anyone who you can truly be happy with. 

"Everything that troubles you comes solely from your inability or unwillingness to tell the truth. Either to others or to yourself."

Thanks for your response.  I already have a T. This ground has been covered. There are no deficiencies of love in my childhood.  Quite the contrary. I have achieved amazing things because of that love.  And I have had a satisfying long term relationship (2+ decades) that unravelled for reasons beyond personality disorders.  I am looking for insight beyond the basic nons recipe as to why they would get involved with a BPD person.  I do want to thank you again for your response as it makes me think.

ABB

[Learning_curve74]

ABB, all people are emotional animals, not rational, otherwise nobody would ever fall in love. We all get conditioned to react emotionally, some of that stems from childhood as StandUpGuy mentioned, some of that is from being in the relationship with our pwBPD or any relationship really. We get conditioned to negotiate the shared parts of the relationship.

It's not so easy to break that circuit between feelings and actions. pwBPD are not the only people who do things because they just felt like it without thinking it through.

I can't say for you the why or what your feelings were behind what you did. I will say that during my BPD relationship I often felt out of control. I think a big part of it was being enmeshed with my exBPDgf, my feelings dependent on and were reactions to her feelings and actions. Even after separating this can linger on some, as is evident by the actions that many nons on the leaving board say they engage in.

Maybe some of us are addicted to the drama. Like a smoker or alcoholic who knows their habit is bad for them but find it so so difficult to quit.

Are you disappointed in her reactions? Do you feel like you let yourself down by contacting her, that you're being drawn back in? Make up sex is very powerful stuff.

[AliveButBeatup]

Learning Curve, you make some good points.

The drama addiction I think is a good one. I think the BPD relationship for me is kind of liking watching Reality TV.  You are waiting to see what happens next, right?  In my case, I know how it is going to end --- a divorce as that is what needs to happen and will happen.  It is clear to me there is no future in the relationship.

I think some of my crap in taunting my ex-wife to be has to do with a scorched earth mindset.  I seem to want to pummel her for her transgressions against me.  I seem to be getting some form of pleasure from watching the train wreck.  That bothers me that what is normally a nice guy would engage in this behavior.  I guess that is a topic to discuss with my T.

I do think some of the communication for me personally stems from me having to get the last word in and fighting that feeling of I failed at this relationship and I have the power to make it have a fairy tale ending.  I realize intellectually that will never happen.  The heart still tries.

Ahhhh, make-up sex. I have been through that more than once.  Great stuff!  Almost as good as the first time. Let me rephrase. Better than the first time. I am proud of myself. I didn't succumb to it this time. I thought about it for 5 minutes or so. Smiled and fell asleep.

Thanks for giving me an opportunity to vent and think things through. Life has been much, much more peaceful and stress free the past few weeks since I moved back to my house.  My headaches are gone. I am enjoying things I haven't enjoyed for quite awhile.

ABB

[Lucky Jim]

Hi ABB, What is the real reason that you dropped off the shirts for mending?  You could have taken them somewhere else to be fixed but didn't, which indicates to me that you were seeking something from your W.  What is the response that you were hoping to get?  Maybe the answer will help you see the path forward.  Hang in there, Lucky Jim

[AliveButBeatup]

Hi ABB, What is the real reason that you dropped off the shirts for mending?  You could have taken them somewhere else to be fixed but didn't, which indicates to me that you were seeking something from your W.  What is the response that you were hoping to get?  Maybe the answer will help you see the path forward.  Hang in there, Lucky Jim

That is a very good question and one I struggled with before bringing them.  She had said how sorry she was about ripping them up multiple times.  And how remorseful she was. I guess I was hoping for her to react as she did when I dropped them off --- no remorse and lots of attitude.  I found peace and solace in that interaction. There is something tangible about holding something in your hand that other person wrecked in a rage and then they don't want to do anything about it. That sort of thing cements in my head they operate on a different value system.  In other words their sorries and remorse are worthless.

To be honest, I feel angry that she actually mended them.  It broke that last image of her that I had where I had come to peace and validation of what I thought about her.

I hope this makes sense.

ABB

[Lucky Jim]

Hello again, ABB,

I understand where you are coming from.  Your post brings back memories of a ripped T-shirt that my BPDxW tore off my back in one of her rages.  I used to carry it around in my car as a tangible reminder of her disorder.  You seem to be on the right path.  Separation is hard, I know, but sometimes the hard decisions are the right decisions.  Hang in there, Lucky Jim

[SeekerofTruth]

ABB

Your thinking and inquiry seems very clear-headed for what it is worth.

I do understand the scorched earth mindset and rubbing their face back in it, which I would do for me as a means of finalizing the separation, but it wasn't clean with me because I wanted her to feel remorse, I wanted her to feel empathy, I wanted her to hurt... .but then when it came to "settlement" ARGUMENTS and broken agreements from the past in bitter Fyou email exchanges... .I step out of that conditioning and instead asked "so do you want to meet in person to discuss"... .and have been in midst of a recycle since... .a month... .6 weeks... .head spinning.

Regarding the mended shirts and expectations... .looks like you got what you got... .= "consistently inconsistent"

[peas]

There is something tangible about holding something in your hand that other person wrecked in a rage and then they don't want to do anything about it. That sort of thing cements in my head they operate on a different value system.  In other words their sorries and remorse are worthless.

I tried holding my ex accountable to a piece of my property he threw out. The property was gone quickly and I couldn't retrieve it. I could not wrap my head around that behavior. No one in my life had ever lashed out at me like that. It was early in our r/s too and I stuck with him for several more months. But that one incident always stayed close to the surface for me and it affected my behavior -- I couldn't trust him with the smallest of my items around him. I resented him for not apologizing, for showing no remorse and for not even trying to make it up to me or replace the property. For him, when the deed was done it was done. I think it pained and shamed him deeply but he didn't know how to correct the situation.

During our breakup I brought up the property incident, which enraged him.

[ts919]

ABB - I've often wondered the same things!  Sounds like we are in a very similar situation; for some reason, I seem to get pleasure from the whole thing.  It's almost like I prefer my uBPDw to be a raging lunatic!  I'm sure it's because it justifies my divorcing her - I grew up in a world where divorce is a sin (a big time one at that!) and I think when she is out of control it helps me rationalize doing what I am doing, therefore bringing me relief and pleasure(?).  I've been in NC mode for a few days now, getting the texts from her, watching her idealize and then devalue all within a short amount of time with 0 contact from me... .it's like watching a train wreck for sure and it's actually quite fascinating!  Just last night I needed to stop by our family home and mow the lawn (i made sure she wasn't home while I was there) and a huge part of me wanted to do something to bait her the entire time; I wanted to take something nice of hers (she has taken a very expensive item from our home that was a pre-marital asset of mine and has refused to return it; she now is claiming she has no idea what I'm talking about!) just to even the score... .it took a lot to talk myself out of it  

ABB - keep fighting the good fight man.  We're all right here with you!

   

[AliveButBeatup]

ABB - I've often wondered the same things!  Sounds like we are in a very similar situation; for some reason, I seem to get pleasure from the whole thing.  It's almost like I prefer my uBPDw to be a raging lunatic!  I'm sure it's because it justifies my divorcing her - I grew up in a world where divorce is a sin (a big time one at that!) and I think when she is out of control it helps me rationalize doing what I am doing, therefore bringing me relief and pleasure(?).  I've been in NC mode for a few days now, getting the texts from her, watching her idealize and then devalue all within a short amount of time with 0 contact from me... .it's like watching a train wreck for sure and it's actually quite fascinating!

Weird regarding what you typed. That was my weekend. Over the course of 4 days (Saturday through Tuesday) I watched the whole cycle.  Only through e-mails.  No texting. No voice calls from me. No physical visits.  I think she left 8 messages. 2 of them sobbing heaps of I cannot live without you. Each passing day is becoming more difficult. I pray to God he purges my heart of my love for you.  I get the e-mails of I miss your body. Please make love to me one last time.  Yesterday it was the I am going to find someone else who thinks I am special. You are spiritually bankrupt.  You will need to answer to God for your sins. I have told the kids never to call you again (my step kids).  You are a piece of dog doodoo.  It was fascinating to watch.

I appreciated your comment about divorce being a big sin. I grew up with the same value system. My wife would use that as a manipulation tool. Make me feel guilty that I am abandoning my family. It took me a few weeks to get my head around that after talking to clergy and such. My final is God does not want me to be abused and not to be in a physically abusive relationship.  My wife claims to be a Christian. Unfortunately, her actions align themselves more with Satan than God. She doesn't think so.

ABB

[ts919]

Unfortunately, her actions align themselves more with Satan than God. She doesn't think so.

ABB - I just spit my drink.  That was awesome. 

On a serious note, the spiritual side of things has been really tough for me - I grew up Pentecostal (I've since, as an adult, moved to "non-denominational"... .it was the cool thing to do at the time!) and they are notorious for their views on divorce.  It's been tough to wrap my head around it.  I've been divorced once before... .but my ex-wife left me for another man.  I was off the hook according to the bible   This time though... .I'm the one going for the divorce; that's a whole other ballgame, one in which Satan is apparently the pitcher.  And he's a late 90's Randy Johnson. 

My uBPDw has tried to use the spiritual side of things as a manipulator several times throughout our short marriage - and very effectively I might add.  Only recently have I come to grips with it (and even now it still bothers me pretty regularly).  On several occasions she has been screaming at me, calling me names, just being horribly abusive verbally and emotionally, telling me how un-Christ-like I am and what a hypocrite I am... .talk about messing with your head.    The sad thing is, when you live in that situation for so long, you start to believe they are possibly right... .all the while forgetting that they are just tormenting you relentlessly, something I've pretty sure Christ would not do! 



 

[annie461463]

Can you all with experience with BPDs tell me:

Should we feel sorry for them?

Or should we feel angry at them for the abuse, and all the other bad behavior?

I talked to my BPD boyfriend a while after we broke up and I told him I thought he had been dishonest with me---I wrote up a narrative.

He replied that while some of what I said was off the mark, he said most of it was true, and he added:  "I have never felt worse about myself."

Do they know they are being deceitful and manipulative at the time?

Do they set out to take advantage of us?

Or are they more unconscious than that?

Should we take the betrayal personally, or should we let them off the hook b/c they can't help it and it's a mental illness?

Annie

[AliveButBeatup]

Unfortunately, her actions align themselves more with Satan than God. She doesn't think so.

ABB - I just spit my drink.  That was awesome. 

On a serious note, the spiritual side of things has been really tough for me - I grew up Pentecostal (I've since, as an adult, moved to "non-denominational"... .it was the cool thing to do at the time!) and they are notorious for their views on divorce.  It's been tough to wrap my head around it.  I've been divorced once before... .but my ex-wife left me for another man.  I was off the hook according to the bible   This time though... .I'm the one going for the divorce; that's a whole other ballgame, one in which Satan is apparently the pitcher.  And he's a late 90's Randy Johnson. 

My uBPDw has tried to use the spiritual side of things as a manipulator several times throughout our short marriage - and very effectively I might add.  Only recently have I come to grips with it (and even now it still bothers me pretty regularly).  On several occasions she has been screaming at me, calling me names, just being horribly abusive verbally and emotionally, telling me how un-Christ-like I am and what a hypocrite I am... .talk about messing with your head.    The sad thing is, when you live in that situation for so long, you start to believe they are possibly right... .all the while forgetting that they are just tormenting you relentlessly, something I've pretty sure Christ would not do! 

My Christian wife can quote scripture at the drop of a hat.  Funny thing is, I used to listen and think to myself I wish I knew the scripture as well as this woman.  At some point along the way, my respect for her diminished to zero, or if possible, negative respect. When she quotes scripture now, I just hear blah, blah, blah and more blah.  I think to myself did you pray before you would hit me, while you were hitting me or after you hit me?  Perhaps all three?  She used to tell me she wanted to become the wife in Proverbs.  I was very enticed by that back when we were dating.  One aspect of her that I find fascinating now is her ability to say she is saved by God's grace and his forgiveness and then go on a rage seconds later.  After you get some distance (separated for. 4 weeks now) from the spectacle, it becomes almost laughable.  I keep telling her The Emperor Has No Clothes.  Maybe she will get that in a decade or so. She certainly does't understand it now.

Your responses to my original post have been great!  Validation on many points. It is a good feeling to know you are not alone in some of your thoughts and actions.

ABB

[Waifed]

My BPD wife and I are separated. I filed for legal separation back in May. We had a period of reconciliation, errrr, recycle. I left her house with the few things I had left there a little over three weeks ago.  I have seen her once since then to pick-up a couple items.  I also dropped off shirts for her to mend that she wrecked in one of her rages. Why I did that, I am uncertain other than I just wanted to see what she would say.  Our meeting was brief with her showing a lot of anger and aloofness.  She told me there was no reason for her to mend the shirts as we were not together.  That was the kind of response I was expecting in that she would not take responsibility for damaging something from her rages.  I found solace in her response.  We have been NC for many days. Life has been peaceful for me.

Roll the clock forward a week and a half after that. I get a message from her oldest daughter that the shirts have been fixed and are ready to be picked up. I ignore the message. I get another message from my wife the shirts are ready to be picked up.  I ignore it as well for a few days and then send an e-mail to her. That starts a series of e-mail exchanges for 3 days and voice messages from her where she is saying how much she misses me. She wants me to come over and make love to her one last time. And then today it is the she was just a conquest for me. If I am reading the signs correctly we went from idealization to devaluation in the course of 3 days without me ever speaking to her or visiting her. Just through e-mails and her messages she left for me.  At this point she is to mail the shirts to me (we live about 30 minutes apart).  Perhaps she will have a rage again and wreck them before they are mailed.

As a side note, this woman has been physically abusive to me. Slapping, scratching, hitting, said she was going to rape me... .  Police have been called twice to intervene. One of her last e-mails was that she says she would never hurt me and I was never in danger.  I find the denial amazing.

This is the part I need to have an understanding of.  I felt I reached a point of apathy with this person through the days of NC. I had peace in my head. Why in the hell would I renegage through e-mail (sure glad I didn't speak with her voice or go there)?  I seem to get some pleasure from taunting and baiting her with what I say in my e-mails.  Perhaps it is revenge for all of the emotional crap I have been through with her.  I know I won't get genuine remorse, but it seems I try anyways. Why?  What is the point?

ABB

Just be careful in your emails.  She is likely to use them as a form of "harassment" against you and get the police involved.  They are crazy like this... . RUN!

[Waifed]

Learning Curve, you make some good points.

The drama addiction I think is a good one. I think the BPD relationship for me is kind of liking watching Reality TV.  You are waiting to see what happens next, right?  In my case, I know how it is going to end --- a divorce as that is what needs to happen and will happen.  It is clear to me there is no future in the relationship.

I think some of my crap in taunting my ex-wife to be has to do with a scorched earth mindset.  I seem to want to pummel her for her transgressions against me.  I seem to be getting some form of pleasure from watching the train wreck.  That bothers me that what is normally a nice guy would engage in this behavior.  I guess that is a topic to discuss with my T.

I do think some of the communication for me personally stems from me having to get the last word in and fighting that feeling of I failed at this relationship and I have the power to make it have a fairy tale ending.  I realize intellectually that will never happen.  The heart still tries.

Ahhhh, make-up sex. I have been through that more than once.  Great stuff!  Almost as good as the first time. Let me rephrase. Better than the first time. I am proud of myself. I didn't succumb to it this time. I thought about it for 5 minutes or so. Smiled and fell asleep.

Thanks for giving me an opportunity to vent and think things through. Life has been much, much more peaceful and stress free the past few weeks since I moved back to my house.  My headaches are gone. I am enjoying things I haven't enjoyed for quite awhile.

ABB

I did the same thing.  I was so pissed I sent some horrible emails to her and the guy overseas that she screwed while on vacation.  I was mad at myself once I began to surface from all the craziness.  It was 100% out of character for me.  I honestly think that all of their negative energy seeps into your body as time passes during the relationship. 

I have finally come to the rationalization that no matter what I do or say to this woman it really doesn't matter and she has more than likely moved on to the next victim and I am ok with this.  She is severely mentally ill and that is never going to change for her no matter what I do or say.  Although I am still angry with myself I am at peace with moving away from her and continuing to heal myself. 

[Learning_curve74]

Should we feel sorry for them?

Or should we feel angry at them for the abuse, and all the other bad behavior?

I talked to my BPD boyfriend a while after we broke up and I told him I thought he had been dishonest with me---I wrote up a narrative.

He replied that while some of what I said was off the mark, he said most of it was true, and he added:  "I have never felt worse about myself."

Do they know they are being deceitful and manipulative at the time?

Do they set out to take advantage of us?

Or are they more unconscious than that?

Should we take the betrayal personally, or should we let them off the hook b/c they can't help it and it's a mental illness?

annie461463, I think you ask some tough questions. Some people struggle with them, some don't. I can only answer for myself.

If I understand correctly, pwBPD often experience their feelings as fact, and their feelings are intense yet easily flip flop to opposite extremes. So I think in the case of my exBPDgf, she didn't necessarily set out to hurt me, but hurting me is a natural byproduct of her ingrained dysfunctional patterns of behavior.

It's so easy to ask why don't they just quit? Everybody understands it's not exactly fair to ask an alcoholic to "just quit", there is an element of loss of self-control in both cases. The one thing that I believe sets a person on the path to managing their behavior -- and if you've met recovered alcoholics and drug addicts, many of them say they are still alcoholics and drug addicts just clean the last x number of years -- is when they recognize they have a problem and choose to start to try and manage it differently from the insane way they've been handling it in the past.

My exBPDgf was a waif-type who basically used cheating and other guys, so I don't think she was necessarily trying to hurt me, but she did everything in her power to hide it. I am resentful that she lied to me even while I understand why. I do not forgive her for knowing that she has BPD and deciding to do nothing about it. I understand she needs to be in total denial about how it hurts her, but I don't choose to blind myself as she does.

One thing to be careful about is to lump everybody together. Some people are more manipulative than others, some are trying to hurt you. I guess only you can examine your own situation closely and decide what to believe. Maybe we also have a need to believe whatever it is that lets us function at the current time. It's not necessarily just a BPD thing.