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Author Topic: A line in the sand.  (Read 1484 times)
Seashells
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« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2013, 01:07:42 AM »

Excerpt
That was my point.  I've never been "comfortable" dealing with someone who didn't treat me well.  I was never comfortable around someone whom I had to "protect my own best emotional  interests" from because they wouldn't "play fair".   I'm not saying we should be comfortable with people like that, but I think it's healthy to know how to assert ourselves (again I don't necessarily mean in an aggressive way) and our needs to others overall. 

Emotional safety is also the conundrum of the BPD. It's a painful disorder as at the core is a void. Why it even exists is often traumatic. Identity disturbances play a further role in the disorder. Levels of awareness of the impact of the disorder is also another entirely different spectrum.

Excerpt
But part of me always wanted to fix those difficult people who made me a little uncomfortable.  Like if I could be kind enough they'd see the light somehow.    cool Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)  I don't even think that in itself is such a bad thing, so long as our self esteem isn't  "hooked" into the outcome.   I don't know if that makes sense to others going through this, it's something I'm looking at in myself.

Interesting thoughts, and perhaps looking into the mirror of your own BPD tendencies at the same time? Hooking the Self esteem into the outcome would be almost assuming poor boundaries and internalizing any negativity. That negativity you have no control over. Push/ pull , black/ white thinking. That is for the pwBPD to work on.

If your partner were to go into therapy as part of your boundaries, you may have a better chance. It's really painful to read the BPD support boards. Some truly struggle and others not. Their denial is too perfect.

I have struggled with the decision as to whether or not I should or want to assert therapy for my partner as a boundary to remain in the r/s for a couple reasons. I'm not sure he could separate doing it for himself and doing because he felt I forced him to do it "or else".   I also have to question my own commitment as well at this point, regardless.  I have to question at what cost to myself and own well being.   The r/s has been a painful struggle a great deal of the time.  And has become worse in  many ways.

He got a diagnosis in part because I refused to deal with him at one point.  I suspected BPD and didn't make him aware of it as I didn't think it was productive to make such a sensitive assertion based upon speculation.   I expected therapy to follow after the actual dx, but it didn't happen in a committed sense. 

I have definitely been accused by the dpwBPD in my life of having it myself. Among other things I've had projected onto me.   

I'm focusing / working on / looking at co-dependent rescuer type issues in myself.

We all have tendencies of many of the PD's.  Narcissism is alive and well in all of us.   It's when the tendencies are extreme and pervasive they become a problem. 

I just always felt I could "nice" someone into respecting me and treating me well.  It was much more comfortable for me to do that than assertively tell someone my needs with certain personalities.  And I can say there was some invalidation growing up that affected me.  I can express and assert my needs; but I've found it very difficult and intimidating to do so with certain people.  That's my lesson.   I don't think any of us are "comfortable" with being disrespected.  If we were comfortable with it, it wouldn't be a problem nor cause us to respond negatively to it.

From experiences in my own life, I believe many mental illnesses are organic issues of brain function.  JMO.

Not trying to hi-jack your thread IM. 
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Seashells
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« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2013, 01:42:33 AM »

I ache for his pain and I cannot fix it for him. Just can't. I tried and I failed. He knows it too, but the denial and projections slam down in his mind. I can see the gears churning when he does it. It's eerie.

I could have written this myself just about word for word... .





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DragoN
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« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2013, 02:08:31 AM »

IMF continuing hijack... .but will bring it back to Lines in the Sand.

It's hard. But so is living with an uBPDh. Hard. Yours has no excuse SeaShells. He has a Dx and now he is using as an excuse. That's not right. Yours is also far more aware. Mine is a blank. He cannot even see me anymore. If that makes sense. He cannot recognize the cause and effect. He can white wash without a second glance.

My husband and I have not had such conversations as you have written about. He can't. He explodes and I leave the blast zone.

Excerpt
I have struggled with the decision as to whether or not I should or want to assert therapy for my partner as a boundary to remain in the r/s for a couple reasons.



Both to protect yourself and the r/s, it is logical to assert that boundary. But that is your boundary. He must want to do the work of his own volition. As long as you remain? He probably won't. Mine only went to counseling after I left.

You can ask him. And he can say No. And you have to accept that and be ready to follow through on your boundary.  :'( The line in the Sand is the one you force yourself to uphold. Not the other way around.

Excerpt
I have definitely been accused by the dpwBPD in my life of having it myself. Among other things I've had projected onto me.   tongue

I'm focusing / working on / looking at co-dependent rescuer type issues in myself.

We all have tendencies of many of the PD's.  Narcissism is alive and well in all of us.   It's when the tendencies are extreme and pervasive they become a problem.

Been accused of everything under the sun and then some. Doesn't make it true. I am not much of a co dep. Probably why the fire works around here. Early on same. My validation skills were also extremely poor. I wasn't reading between the lines and trying to figure out the root cause, I was too busy dealing with the symptoms of the disorder.

True, how pervasive and how detrimental to others and self. Working on that a great deal myself. While at the same time aware that each person we deal with is unique as well. Can't "please" everyone all of the time and it's not going to work anyways. Accept a person as they are , or not. It's tough when it's a PD'd person as the behaviors are not acceptable. And that is where Radical Acceptance comes in. Knowing that they are as they are and will not change. Can you live with that? I don't want to anymore. I can't do it. It's worse than being alone, it's lonely. Worse? He knows what he does. That? No. Do it to someone else. Not me.
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ucmeicu2
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« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2013, 10:32:41 AM »



There is really no chance of an understanding or a meeting of minds with BPD. We can heal, they can not.

Therapy isnt a cure... .For the pwBPD.At most... .It shortens... .The episodes of dysregulation.And this is after... .Years of therapy.Of committed participation... .By the pwBPD... .To willingly want... .To get better... .For themselves... .First.BPD is always present. <cut>  Hope for recovery... .And actual recovery... .Are 2 vastly different things.We can all hope to find a cure for x disease... .Is a lot different then... .That medicine found for x disease... .Has actually been proven to cure the disease.See the difference... .?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i found more literature, that gives more clearer facts not just "hope".  i post it here so we can 1) "face the facts" which is the very name/slogan for this website  Smiling (click to insert in post)  and 2) give YOU some comfort, as i can hear the pain and anger you are experiencing right now    :



Question:

What is the Borderline Personality Prognosis.  I have been diagnosed with BPD. Does this mean I will have it for the rest of my life?

Answer:

Most likely, no, you will not have BPD for the rest of your life. At one time, experts did believe that BPD was a life sentence; they thought that BPD was not likely to respond to treatment and that BPD was always chronic and lifelong.

Now, we know that this is a complete myth. Research has shown that almost half of people who are diagnosed with BPD will not meet the criteria for diagnosis just two years later. Ten years later, eighty-eight percent of people who were once diagnosed with BPD no longer meet criteria for a diagnosis.


In addition, there are now a number of treatments that have been proven to be effective for reducing the symptoms of BPD. So, with treatment, the disorder may remit much more quickly.

Source: Amarine, MC, Frankenburg, FR, Hensen, J, Reich, DB, and Silk, KR. "Predictions of the 10-year course of borderline personality disorder." American Journal of Psychiatry, 163:827-832, 2006.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


that last sentence i bolded, clearly seems to be saying that even without treatment, BPD remits.  treatment just can make it remit faster.

btw, i'm not suggesting in any way that this info be used as a means to stay in a r/s that would be best to get out of.  again, just trying to "face the facts".

icu2
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ucmeicu2
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« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2013, 11:10:06 AM »

here's another article saying much the same as the last one i posted, but in addition it addresses the questions you raised, which i bolded.  it's called a stigma, and they're hard to change.  i guess that, as with any other invention/innovation/change in societal norms/etc, there is almost always lag time for general acceptance.  dr silk says "much has changed in the last 10-15 yrs" but clearly many healthcare professionals have not kept up.  too bad.:

IRONMAN SAID:

Professionals themselves... .Do not like treating pwBPD.That in itself is telling.If such a recovery was so effective... .The above Professionals... .Would not have such a difficult time... .With such patients. See the difference... .?

~~~~~~~~

This editorial reports 40% of patients with borderline personality disorder remit (remission) after 2 years, with 88% no longer meeting Diagnostic Interview for Borderlines—Revised or DSM-III-R criteria after 10 years

Editorial

Augmenting Psychotherapy for Borderline Personality Disorder: The STEPPS Program

Kenneth R. Silk, M.D.

The diagnosis of borderline personality disorder conjures up thoughts of helplessness and hopelessness. The helplessness and hopelessness reside not only in the patient but often in the treatment providers as well. A widespread belief that continues to exist among mental health professionals is that treatment does very little for borderline personality disorder patients. Yet they are very difficult to disengage from treatment. Therapists shy away from informing the patient that she has the diagnosis because to pronounce the diagnosis not only would be equivalent to a type of "death sentence" (as we used to be afraid of telling patients that they had cancer or schizophrenia), but it would also cause fear of the rage that the therapist is certain to encounter from the affectively dyscontrolled patient.

Much has changed in the last 10–15 years, but unfortunately too many therapists still feel that borderline personality disorder is untreatable and is a lifelong drain on the energy of the therapist, the psychopharmacologist, and the entire mental health system. While it is true that people with borderline personality disorder utilize mental health resources to a far greater extent than their 1%–2% prevalence would suggest (1), the idea that these patients never change or improve needs revision.

Substantial research now sheds light on many of these mythical assumptions.
There is strong evidence from the McLean Study of Adult Development that 40% of patients with borderline personality disorder remit after 2 years, with 88% no longer meeting Diagnostic Interview for Borderlines—Revised or DSM-III-R criteria after 10 years (2). The temporal stability (or lack of it) in a borderline personality disorder diagnosis has also been examined in the Collaborative Longitudinal Personality Disorders Study, and findings suggest that about one-half of those who meet borderline personality disorder on intake no longer meet DSM-IV criteria 24 months later (3).

Even more surprising and myth-debunking is the number of well-designed controlled studies in support of effective treatment for borderline personality disorder patients. These studies, for the most part, are randomized controlled trials of therapies that range from cognitive behavior, such as dialectical behavioral therapy (4) and other more straightforward cognitive behavioral therapies (5), to psychodynamic and psychoanalytically based therapies, which include mentalization-based therapy (6) and transference-focused psychotherapy (7), to the blend of cognitive and dynamic therapies in schema-focused therapy (8 ). And not surprisingly, as therapies that appear to be effective emerge, there are now articles urging that patients be informed of their borderline personality disorder diagnosis (9). It is interesting that most of these interventions are in the nonpharmacologic arena, while psychopharmacologic treatment of borderline personality disorder remains unclear, uncertain, and in general unimpressive.

The article by Blum et al. in this issue of the Journal is another step along the path of developing and testing more useful and reasonably successful psychotherapeutic interventions for borderline personality disorder. What is intriguing about the study by Blum et al. is that this nonpharmacologic intervention called Systems Training for Emotional Predictability and Problem Solving (STEPPS) is essentially an augmentation of or adjunct to treatment that is already occurring for the borderline personality disorder patient. It combines 20 weekly sessions of cognitive behavior and skills training elements with a systems component or approach that involves family members, significant others, and health care professionals with whom the patient interacts regularly. The randomized controlled trial study design measured STEPPS plus treatment as usual (N=65) or treatment as usual alone (N=59) every 4 weeks through the 20 weeks of treatment. The study found that the STEPPS intervention affords greater improvement in the affective, cognitive, interpersonal, and impulsive domains of borderline personality disorder; greater improvement in mood and impulsivity; decreasing negative affect; and greater overall global improvement when compared with treatment as usual without STEPPS. STEPPS is brief, adjunctive, and easy to use by a wide range of mental health professionals.

While the STEPPS intervention did not lead to significant between-group differences for suicide attempts, self-harm, or other measures of crises, the importance of the intervention should not be diminished. There are a number of treatments for borderline personality disorder that do decrease suicidal attempts or self-destructive behavior, but some of those that improve suicide do not necessarily improve depression any more significantly than the control intervention (4, 5, 7). It would appear sensible to use STEPPS as an adjunct, particularly to an intervention in which effectiveness is limited in areas where STEPPS has been shown to have beneficial impact. Perhaps as we study the impact of specific and different psychotherapeutic interventions, we may be able to combine or sequence various interventions to get a greater degree of the effectiveness of psychotherapy. For example, in the case of dialectical behavioral therapy, where impact on depressed mood is not impressive, the strategy of augmenting the treatment with STEPPS might provide more extensive overall benefit.

In addition, STEPPS has what the authors label as a "systems" component. By systems, the authors expect that there is involvement of a friend or relative who is willing to learn about borderline personality disorder and who participates in psychoeducational sessions to help him or her respond better to some of the dysfunctional and certainly confusing and affect-provoking behaviors displayed by the patient. There is a need for more interventions that involve the systems that surround the patient with borderline personality disorder, since it is often the people who interact with the patient who remain perplexed and stymied in knowing how to respond to their patient, friend, or relative with the disorder. STEPPS then provides another systems-based treatment available to families and significant others, along with interventions such as the Family Connections Program of the National Education Alliance for Borderline Personality Disorder (www.neaBPD.com). In addition, the patient is expected to be in ongoing therapy and have a mental health professional available to STEPPS in the event of a crisis.

The STEPPS study is a well-designed effectiveness study and was carried out in a thoughtful way, although with a high dropout rate, which is unfortunately not uncommon in such studies. In addition to the randomization, the study is also naturalistic in that outside psychotherapeutic and psychopharmacologic treatments were not controlled other than the requirement of having an outside therapist. It is to the researchers’ credit that they were able to combine the best elements of a randomized controlled trial with this naturalistic aspect of ongoing "outside" treatment.

In an editorial in the June 2007 issue of the Journal, Glen O. Gabbard, M.D. (10), referring to a point made by Daniel X. Freedman many years ago, suggested that we should be cautious not to pit one therapy against another in an attempt to find the very best. What is so helpful about having STEPPS in our therapeutic black bag is that it complements other therapies and need not replace or compete with them. To paraphrase what Marsha Linehan said in her keynote address to the International Society for the Improvement and Teaching of Dialectical Behavior Therapy in Philadelphia in the Fall of 2007, we should derive great satisfaction in knowing that there are a number of different types of interventions that appear effective for borderline personality disorder. The greater the number of available effective interventions, the better the chance that a patient may be able to improve to a degree where she feels that life is once again, if it ever was, worth living. Then we will have more evidence to erase the myth that borderline personality disorder is untreatable and that the diagnosis relegates the patient to a life of helplessness and hopelessness.


Dr. Silk, University of Michigan Health System, Rachel Upjohn Building, 4250 Plymouth Rd., Ann Arbor, MI 48109-5769; ksilk@umich.edu (e-mail). Editorial accepted for publication January 2008 (doi:10.1176/appi.ajp.2008.08010102).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

hope you find this helpful,

icu2
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Ironmanrises
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« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2013, 11:27:26 AM »

Uceme... .

Well stated and valid response.
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