Telling the truth to a BPD ex

[LivingLearning]

So I've had a pretty succesful 4 months of NC (sort of) with my ex.

About every 3 weeks she contacts me, and I don't get enmeshed, I'm pretty neutral. Detached.

So here's a thought:

If you think someone had a drinking problem, or could be schizophrenic, someone who you care about. You might tell them so. In a measured, non-expert way.

Chances are it wouldn't absorb at all, and quite probably, but maybe after many times for them they would absorb it. So why not just tell her the truth?

I like being real. For me, for others, and community. Why wouldn't I just be honest with her about what I think? Maybe I'll feel better about myself for just being me, speaking my truth, bearing the consequences but at least I'm being real.

[myself]

If I may ask, what is it that you tell her? What truths?

[Waifed]

I told my ex. She called the police on me!  It's a waste of time if they are high functioning. Even if they agreed to go to therapy (to get you to come back) it would take at least a couple of years to see any results. What are the odds that you still be in a relationship with her. It's probably mute since they rarely stay in therapy anyway.

[LivingLearning]

It's so funny to me that people always assume it's a desire to reunite. Not that.

  I suppose it's kind of like saying to someone who hit you as a child. Doesn't mean anything, just speaking the same stuff you say to others. Your story! Your life. Not hiding it.

   What truth would I say?

Well, she said "I hope it's okay I'm emailing you... ." If I was honest I might say "good to hear from you in a way, and I also have come to realize I think you may be suffering from BPD (and I'm no expert). Look, I don't want to be fake, I've really been taking a look at me, and our past, and this is where I'm landing. I know this may be crappy to hear but I really do care, and there's actually really good treatment out there. Because of the past stuff I've heard from you when I've spoken my mind, I'm not comfortable hearing from you for a time. And I wanted to be honest in this moment. Later, after time has passed, perhaps we can reconnect. I'm also always happy to meet with you and a therapist and you can have a therapist contact me at any time."

[Pretty Woman]

Living,

I don't think Waifed meant it as a desire to reunite.  I think was just pointing out its really hopeless to even try to tell them they have a problem.

They know they do.  It was you.  You were their problem (their warped way of thinking).

They are in such denial it will only hurt you when they accuse you of having the problem instead and twist it around on them.

They will not take responsibility and anything you say is just an accusation. 

I know you mean well and mean the best for them but being your relationship is over its not your responsibility or problem anymore. 

Let sleeping dogs lie.  Better than growling biting ones. 

[Ironmanrises]

In my case, me telling my exBPDgf that she has the disorder and her admitting to it(when she reengaged me for round 2) and then to backtrack on that admittance soon after, to the day of discard, in which she admitted, then denied, then admitted/denied all in one sentence, in reference to her disorder, MADE NO DIFFERENCE. Her admitting to the disorder to me was one of the ways she got me to let her back into my life, a means to an end. I probably know more about her disorder then she does. And that saddens me. To no end. What do I do with this information? I can't help her. I tried when I let her back in. That failed. She left again.

[LivingLearning]

Ironman, earth angel, waif,

   I still feel like you're not getting what I'm saying... .

Forget them!

Forget them!

What about you?

What about speaking your truth?

Even if they don't get it for two years, and I'm married, that was me contributing to COMMUNITY!

Being honest, sharing data, a little thing that social organisms called humans benefit from. Feedback! Even if it's not from us, but from the cumulative effect over years, from many people. The awesome feeling of speaking your mind, this isn't about getting the person back, it's about being real.

[Ironmanrises]

I did speak my truth to her. The words, however, were not registered as such. I spoke my truth before I let her back in for round 2, when I let her back in, and on the day she left me again. She heard my words each time. She has ears and the sense of hearing that I know of. What she heard? Unknown. I was real with her. It didn't make any difference. The outcome was the same.

[LivingLearning]

Yeah, that really sucks, or it doesn't because you're free of her.

That's also my point... .my point is not about the outcome for you. Maybe it's the outcome 5 years from now. For the greater good!

Maybe you saying that will sink in, even when she's 80, and even then if it makes a difference, maybe that's cool.

[Turkish]

Ironman, earth angel, waif,

   I still feel like you're not getting what I'm saying... .

Forget them!

Forget them!

What about you?

What about speaking your truth?

Even if they don't get it for two years, and I'm married, that was me contributing to COMMUNITY!

Being honest, sharing data, a little thing that social organisms called humans benefit from. Feedback! Even if it's not from us, but from the cumulative effect over years, from many people. The awesome feeling of speaking your mind, this isn't about getting the person back, it's about being real.

The truth may set us free, but they see and hear through the clouded lens of their disorder.

Here is a perspective piece:

PERSPECTIVES: Telling someone that you think they have BPD

Just before I came here, I told mine I thought she had BPD. She later told me it scared the crap out of her. Then I got that telling them can often trigger worse behavior, and that in the end it makes no difference. I desperately wanted to talk to her T just to throw out the phrase "walking on eggshells" to see if her T would get what I was saying. This incident was when I thought we could still work things out (despite the affair... .but she kept at it which was when I finally said "done!" which I think is what she wanted me to say, to absolve her of responsibility in a way).

Since then, our conversations have been just business unless triggered by something. Even so, she tries to be friends with me, but I can't get her to understand that her continued betrayal isn't right. She thinks it's in the past since we are no longer in a romantic relationship. This is child like thinking. I can't make her think anything she doesn't want to.

Two weeks ago, we had a conversation where she admitted to a lot of things and even admitted that she knew she was [mentally] sick. I throw out phrases and clues now and then, but I don't want to _hurt_ her more than the pain she already has inside. She is hurting herself too much (and to a lesser extent, our children sometimes, but she got better with them than she was a month ago--- I swallowed a lot of my need to "tell the truth" in order for her to be more stable with them). Do I want to contribute to that? I do, however, point out her bad behaviors (she even told me to stop her if I saw her getting out of line with the kids since she can't control her mood swings sometimes), because she was trying to get away with things like a misbehaving teenager. I had to establish a boundary for all of us.

There is a difference between telling someone they are a bad person and pointing out bad behaviors. One is a value judgement about them, the other a value judgement about what is going on out here in the real world. As for telling the truth, I am in careful contact with two of her siblings, but I don't say much. Most of the family is very dysfunctional, though it was worse in the past (hence, her childhood traumas that likely contributed to it). I also suspect BPD runs in their family, which is why I will be watching our S3 like a hawk (D1 I think is ok), especially given his mother's devaluing attitude towards men. I lived his childhood, but without the benefit of a father to balance things out.

I get some validation from at least one friend whom I've sent some of the things from this site. Others listen to my BPD talk, but generally focus on the behaviors, too, not the causes. My mother is a good validator. Despite having some BPD traits, she is a health professional, and when I told her about what happened, she said, "of course she has BPD." And that was that. I think some of my X's friends are sympathetic to me, but they are still her friends. I may or may not have the opportunity to put out hints to one... .someone whom she grew up with and knows about her depressions at least. But what good would it do? BPD is insidious and often a hidden PD. Not easy to get someone to understand, because only those of us very close become the targets of the illness, at least for the higher functioning ones.

I don't know if you got anything out of that, but this has been and is my experience.

[Turkish]

Yeah, that really sucks, or it doesn't because you're free of her.

That's also my point... .my point is not about the outcome for you. Maybe it's the outcome 5 years from now. For the greater good!

The greater good for me personally will be for our children. Any future guy dumb enough to ignore so many red flags as I did needs to figure it out on his own like I did (though too late). That's why I had the conversation I did the other night (the one you didn't like). She trusts me to be the stable balance for our  children (here I have it luckier than many here in the same situation), but it would be so much better if she were diagnosed and in treatment, or I will spend the rest of my life on the roller coaster with our kids. I have a feeling it may get there at some point, because mine will be adrift for the first time in her life after she leaves. Medicating for a while, but the responsibilities of motherhood along with living the double life in an alternate world as a teenager, basically, will eventually wear her down.

Or it won't and I will just have to deal with it.

[whatathing]

LivingLearning, I understand what you´re saying, I think it´s an important aspect of all of what we went through and witnessed: by being close to them, we went through the invalidating, abusing emotional patterns that they live in, and it was traumatic for us, and so we need to feel that we´re back in "reality" by giving voice to all that we had to hide from them before because we thought it was the best for both. And we need to feel free again, to not have to "walk on eggshells". And also it gives them an opportunity, even if they probably won´t grab, to be able to look at things from a realist perspective, from someone who doesn´t treat them as handicapped, and tells them the truth. I agree with you, and so I did tell my uBPDexgf that she was having some serious trouble admitting her behaviour, that it was not healthy, and that she had to stop some of these behaviours, and stick to the help that the T (that I introduced her to) was trying to give her. I didn´t directly use the BPD diagnose/label, I just described what was way out of line in her behaviour and meant that she wasn´t ok and needed an extended therapy to overcome.

I felt very good for having the opportunity to speak with no barriers with her, and to give her a real feedback that she can remember sometime in the future when she starts to process and reflect on things. I think it was the right thing to do. But she didn´t take it well. She became defensive, in denial, didn´t stop the behaviours, stopped contacting me, felt offended and devalued, and I believe that she also stopped seeing her T because she rebelled against my "accusations" and associated her T with me. Maybe keeping my mouth shut would be the best for her in that moment, but also maybe she would drop out the therapy anyway, and at least now she can think about what I said some day, and I also got rid of the abuse she still was giving me by calling me now and then when she was in need. Now I don´t feel I´m responsible for her anymore, I also mailed her family saying that they weren´t aware of the seriousness of her condition, and that they weren´t helping her, and that she needs to stick to therapy. She hated me for that, felt betrayed, and she went away. End of story! It was very therapeutic to me, to be able to speak freely, it felt validating to me, and I got "two in one", because finally she left her "prey" alone.

Good luck for you

[santa]

Believe me, your truth and her truth are two entirely different things. Save yourself the trouble and don't bother with it. It won't help.

[emotionaholic]

Interestingly I just had this conversation with my, used to be our, therapist today.  The ex had come over after 6 months NC to get her things.  After all that I have learned here and through therapy I was dying to tell her all about it.  Not to get back together but put it out there for her to see and hopefully to see some light.  I am watching from a distance her ditruction of her relationship with her own son, my son goes to school with hers, and it is hard to watch.

My T tells me that the "truth" I want to get out to her is not her truth.  She will have to come upon her own truth or there will be no truth. The denial aspect of her illness will only drive her to deny it further.  It will or may only happen when she fully realizes she has lost everybody she loves and even then, assuming she does not kill herself, may seek on her own the means to realization and help.  Everything else will just cause more destruction or avoidance. 

[Perfidy]

Probably just pick a fight if I ever tried the "honest" approach. Hypothetically,because I would not be interested in speaking to her about it, it would go something like this... .now she already knows the truth... .So really there would be no point. She knows she has BPD. She knows she's a meth addict. She knows she is hell in relationships. She knows she has other problems... .But just for fun... .still no. I cannot bring my self to even think about the truth of her. I have to think about the truth of me and how I let myself accept her. I'm a decent guy but I sure ain't a saint.

[goldylamont]

It's so funny to me that people always assume it's a desire to reunite. Not that.

  I suppose it's kind of like saying to someone who hit you as a child. Doesn't mean anything, just speaking the same stuff you say to others. Your story! Your life. Not hiding it.

   What truth would I say?

Well, she said "I hope it's okay I'm emailing you... ." If I was honest I might say "good to hear from you in a way, and I also have come to realize I think you may be suffering from BPD (and I'm no expert). Look, I don't want to be fake, I've really been taking a look at me, and our past, and this is where I'm landing. I know this may be crappy to hear but I really do care, and there's actually really good treatment out there. Because of the past stuff I've heard from you when I've spoken my mind, I'm not comfortable hearing from you for a time. And I wanted to be honest in this moment. Later, after time has passed, perhaps we can reconnect. I'm also always happy to meet with you and a therapist and you can have a therapist contact me at any time."

LL, so first I wanted to say that i felt *exactly* how you felt. I wanted so bad to tell my ex that she had BPD and it was because i had the strong need to tell the truth, my truth, i was tired of hiding things. And, i really didn't give a rats arse about her reaction, either. Well, it turns out i didn't tell her--but this was really just circumstance as the 'need' i had to do this passed before i heard from her again. Kind of glad i never told her, but only b/c i don't think she deserves anything else from me. Also it's not going to do any good, would just be another tool for her to try and twist to hurt me more.

Personally I wouldn't recommend you say anything to her--you're email above is just too mushy, sounds like you still care for her and wish her the best. And, this is just not going to be the case for her or the response she would give. She doesn't *want* to hear any advice from you, why would she when you are her crazy, unstable and emotionally stunted ex who she doesn't really care about anymore other than a cursory email here and there? I wouldn't recommend sending this because the tone of it sounds to me like you would still be hurt by her response or lack thereof.

I was going to say that the good thing about telling her this would be that she would respond in such an asinine way and probably totally cut you off completely so then it would make NC with her easier--but then whatathing posted that this is just what happened to him. So, if you are OK with getting a nasty response from her and her using your friendly gesture as a reason to call you crazy and then block you out of her life, I say go for it. I know at the time when I wanted to say these things I was fully ready for this response, I didn't care what she felt I just knew what I wanted to say. But again, probably easier that she stopped contacting me (for a while at least) until that urge in me subsided. I know the feeling though, I know

[necchi]

Mine admitted some just to win me back. Yesterday after 5 months n/c i sent her an e-mail about the gas lighting she is doing w D13 and that led me to send another one about her behaviour, showing the facts, her lies. But it is point less, she basically twisted everything giving senseless reasoning and that i was the sick one, it was all in my head and i need to get help  pfffff!  That 6year old is good on making me feel useless

so this said,  if coming from many other peoples over time if it would trigger a significant doubt in their mind ? Probably. In highly functioning ones ... .?

All this would make a great case study but is not likely to happen since it would take so much time.    wonder if hypnosis would have an impact ?

[Octoberfest]

My ex is diagnosed. I went to a few therapy sessions with her.  I saw her complete her weekly logs for her DBT treatment... .The night before they were due of course.

She is still doing the same stuff.  Still lying about all manner of things big and small.

It is a wonder to me that ANYONE with the disorder has made a recovery. I truly don't think mine ever will.

It's been 7 months after a 9 month relationship and I am still bleeding.  Sometimes you just have to shake your head and ask why.

[RecycledNoMore]

Yeah, you say all that, but at the end of your first post you mention recconnecting at a later date?so I feel like your sending a mixed signal?

[necchi]

It's insane how interact with our own sanity!;! 3years ago i regularly went to this new doctor of mine , and everytime i would mention horrible thing she would do and this one time i was there to get a signature from her to validate me leaving work... .well again i was saying to her what was new in my hell an she me I was borderline and couldn't see life like anyone else ? I didn't know what it meant, didn't felt like asking but knew I've just been insulted. Anyhow on this paper she wrote as the reason: pd borderline.

this same day i went to my exBPD and forgot this file and in it was a duplicate of it, so this gives her validation to lie to herself,its not her it's me ! She did give back to me in an attempt to come back but that doesn't change anything.

[KE151]

BPDs are emotional phantoms, you never really know where they stand before it's too late. A BPD's whole life rotates around avoiding the truth. They are masters in lying and pretending. Their life is one big painful act of denial. Us telling them they are sick is futile. They'd have to admit their whole lives have been a lie. That't why change is such a gargantuan challenge for a BPD.

I told my exBPDgf(queen) that I was 110% sure she had BPD (she has ALL of the symptoms except cutting). She turned it completely around and used all the information I gave her about BPD as a means to prove that I was the one who's sick.

[LivingLearning]

So helpful to read all the posts!

(And not as painful as I thought, thanks for that

A few things I heard were some examples of telling ex's stuff like:

"You Need to stick to therapy"

"I'm 110% you're BPD"

I would not say that, I'm not a therapist, so I can't be sure, and how could I know what she needs?

Another thought of mine: could I be hurt by her response? Of course I could (if I read it- I'm pretty good about not reading when I set a reply boundary of time passed.) life sometimes hurts. My question is how much, and how much do I let pain guide my choices.

As to a comment regarding thinking I might still be hurt, I appreciate that. And really, every single one of these posts in a way. It really helps me take a look at what I may not admit to myself- vulnerabilities, unhealed pain.

I haven't said anything to my ex. She emailed me again and I'm deciding how to reply, if to reply, and what I'll say.

Honesty is very important to me, as is facing pain and growing. I'm also interested in enjoying life and staying silent if I don't want to deal with a hassle... .

My gut says to speak my truth and let go of the consequences.

[LivingLearning]

A side note is,

I told my 70 year old mom, probably BPD, recently that I'm realizing some of the ways she communicates doesn't work for me. I told her I find myself pulling away from her finally, and that it seems to me she values my companionship. That I've encouraged therapeutic help for her, and it seems she hasn't chosen that.

So I let her know my choices. It was such a relief, and she backed off quite a bit. I think out relationship is healthier now, though I figure I still have a bit of transitional grief around separating from her more.

But I figure there's also a health to it that will grow. Her being 70 helps as she's mellowed over the years as many BPD's do. And me too, with all the crap I have.

[goldylamont]

Another thought of mine: could I be hurt by her response? Of course I could (if I read it- I'm pretty good about not reading when I set a reply boundary of time passed.) life sometimes hurts. My question is how much, and how much do I let pain guide my choices.

As to a comment regarding thinking I might still be hurt, I appreciate that. And really, every single one of these posts in a way. It really helps me take a look at what I may not admit to myself- vulnerabilities, unhealed pain.

LL it seems like you are aware of your own vulnerabilities and also the consequences of telling your ex, so with this awareness I say if you still want to do it, then maybe go for it. I just wanted to make sure you were asking yourself these questions before doing it so that you weren't surprised or hurt by the response (or lack thereof) -- just me being protective.  If you do decide to do it, let us know how it turns out for you.

Honesty is very important to me, as is facing pain and growing. I'm also interested in enjoying life and staying silent if I don't want to deal with a hassle... .

My gut says to speak my truth and let go of the consequences.

This is exactly how I felt--that it was out of character for me to *not* say how I felt. The only difference being that I was already doing strict NC with my ex so I was only considering doing this if she actually initiated contact with me--well, it was about 6 months down the line that she contacted me and by then I didn't even consider her worth my honesty and I could talk about to my friends anyway so I didn't bring it up. I'd support either way you wanted to go as long as you know you are putting your own needs first 

[LivingLearning]

Thanks goldylamont,

That was a super nice post to read. It's funny, i think I'm realizing how nice it is to have "protective" people like you. Warning me, helping me remember the risks, giving support.

I've been doing a practice lately of taking such things in and growing them, enjoying them. I can be protective/skeptical/guarded at times. Other times pretty open.

One thing I struggle with in your post is the idea of her being "worth" my time (not sure I remember your phrasing right).

I wonder if my best position of power is a centerred loving and compassion that fully includes me not talking to her, if that's my choice. But that doesn't evaluate her "worth". She is worthy as anyone and does the best she can.

I don't know if this is my new agey brainwashing or something I truly feel. I figure it's a mix.

As I side note, I replies to her email tonight. Shortish, about work, not honest, but a bit of a holding pattern and a signal of "hey, I'm gonna be neutral with you, and maybe this will with much time grow into an unheated friend/acquaintance".

I'm fine, of course, with having friends who are troubled. It's when I engage with them as a partner that the pain occurs.