A great deal of sadness

[allibaba]

Momtara,

I still believe that my husband has BPD (some weird things early in our relationship), the abuse as a kid, the bizarre push/pull behavior -- but that as his stresses grew he got triggered and then maybe he sought drugs and alcohol.  It was mostly drugs (though I really didn't have a clue which makes me feel like a fool) and apparently when not working he has been drinking at bars during the day (didn't have a clue either).  My husband always spun these really crazy tales and sought revenge when triggered too!

As for custody, we have agreed that he can spend time with him in the house when I say its ok... . but he plans on being in residential inpatient treatment for up to a year so don't really think that is a concern right now.

Alli

[allibaba]

 I'm glad to hear how you feel about it. You still sound strong and centered, and are happy with the boundaries you chose to enforce.

I still hope he rises to the occasion... . but whatever happens to him, you are a success story!

Thanks for starting me down this road.  If I am really honest with myself I was in a dark place when I got to these boards.  I remember one morning my husband threw a fit when  I was making him breakfast.  He left for his job at 5am and sitting on the couch at 5:30 in the morning, I really wanted to pour myself a glass of vodka.  Clearly not normal behavior.  For me it was    that things were desperately wrong.  Instead I wrote my post about verbal abuse and you responded with advise on boundary reinforcement.  That was a critical Y in the road for me.  I'm grateful that I was fortunate enough to take the path I took and not the path that my father took (with dealing with my uBPD mother)... . my dad started mixing tequila and orange juice and fried his brain on alcohol.

I can't judge... . but for the grace of God, there go I.

[ForeverDad]

Oh, still be careful about custody.  My exH said that he'd be too sick to take care of our kids if we divorced.  I thought, hooray, he won't be around them much.  But as the divorce progressed, he filed for primary custody!  He may have been saying he was sick just to guilt me into not leaving.

Probably a slightly different MO since my ex never said she'd let me do the parenting, but before our separation she had a long period of claimed depression, moaning and groaning around the house, sort of being the waif.  But as soon as the end drew near she morphed into the queen or witch and I've never since seen her mope around.

People with BPD, NPD, or other acting-out PDs are typically very accomplished and slick manipulators who know how to be emotionally convincing and very able to distort the facts and reality.

[Matt]

People with BPD, NPD, or other acting-out PDs are typically very accomplished and slick manipulators who know how to be emotionally convincing and very able to distort the facts and reality.

Yes, and they may be deceiving themselves as much as anyone else... .

[allibaba]

Ha ha.  My husband was supposed to be home for a week or less and then into inpatient treatment.  If he had to stay for more than a week, he was going to do some work to make money... . promised that he wouldn't be using our family's resources.  Well now he has a place to stay for at least a month (really nice house with access to a car)... . never contacted anyone for work.

Just looked at our credit card statement and he been TAKING PEOPLE OUT TO DINNER's on my credit card... . playing big shot.  I have been HAD!  Needless to say I brought the credit limit down and he can't get too far on it.

I think that he got home and found another place to not have to hit bottom.  Oh well.  Not my problem.  The longer he stays away (with me not supporting him) the better case for custody etc.

[Matt]

The staff at my son's rehab told me they like to get people direct from jail, because that way they would be motivated.  When my son went there, they told me to bring him direct from jail - literally - no stopping at home to get stuff, or stopping for a last meal - direct from jail to rehab.

When someone takes "one last week" before getting treatment, they often don't actually go to the rehab, or they go and don't stay long - find some excuse not to complete the program.

[ForeverDad]

Beware that if it is a joint credit card account the company may allow him to raise the limit right back up.  If you're the account holder and he's the card holder than he can't play those games with you.  Conversely, if he's the account holder and you're the card holder then the card is his responsibility, however if he's not financially able/willing to pay then you may still get stuck if the divorce process views it as joint debt.

The advice on joint cards is to close them and use others that aren't joint.

[livednlearned]

Beware that if it is a joint credit card account the company may allow him to raise the limit right back up.  If you're the account holder and he's the card holder than he can't play those games with you.  Conversely, if he's the account holder and you're the card holder then the card is his responsibility, however if he's not financially able/willing to pay then you may still get stuck if the divorce process views it as joint debt.

The advice on joint cards is to close them and use others that aren't joint.

And any debt he incurs while you two are married shows up in the financial settlement, both of your responsibility. In my state, anything that goes on a joint card after legal date of separate is the responsibility of whoever incurred the debt.

It can be hard to close joint cards if there is debt, at least until a judge orders something.

[allibaba]

Its my credit card.  I just got him one with his name on it.  I have totally financial responsibility for the limits etc.  I can cancel the card and there is nothing that he can do about it!

[ForeverDad]

If you're the account holder, then you can cancel a card holder's card at any time, no need to close the account though you might have to ask the company to issue you a new card and number for the sake of security.  Of course, if his card is cancelled then he may be less likely to reimburse.

[Grey Kitty]

Hmmm... . seems like time to set up some boundaries regarding joint finances.

There is no need to have a joint credit card, even if you are willing to pay his bills. Don't know if there is any good reason to have a joint bank account... . or put any money into it, at least.

Stay strong!

[allibaba]

Hi all,

Have gotten a few messages from people wondering how I am.  My husband is still away... . I cut off financially as it was clear that he wasn't going to respect our finances.

This last month has been good... . like a breath of fresh air.  I am still allowing my husband time to get back on track but it seems that he is ignoring his issues regarding mental illness... . sigh.  You just can't make people get help.

I am on vacation at the moment but when I get back I am going to meet with the lawyer again to see what prep work I need to do to prepare for a potential divorce.  Alli

[momtara]

Hi Alli.  I have been wondering about you.  A month may be too early for him to full face all his issues.  Imagine what it's like to admit to something you've been covering up for for years.  I'm not taking his side - if he truly won't do it, then it may be time to go.

I remember that feeling of being able to breathe.  I was still reflexively looking over my shoulder for a while, tiptoeing.  It was nice to be free!

But then comes making him your adversary, if you do decide to divorce.  I would advise now to think about how you feel about him having visitation with your son, and if you'd want it to be supervised or not.  Sounds like he hasn't threatened your son, which is good.  But you have to figure all that out.  He has suggested he can't take care of him, from what I remember.  If that's the case, subtly take that and find a way to keep him thinking it's his idea and get that into an agreement, without letting him think you're so excited about it.  It's a delicate balance.  YOu want to protect your son and still not rile your husband.  At the same time, if you think he needs a psych eval, that's another thing to think about.

Keep me posted!

[allibaba]

Just checking in... . 3 months of separation and I have been working with an attorney to prepare for the divorce. 

We have *mostly* avoided drama.  What I mean is that the drama has been him slinging verbal threats and nothing 'real'.  Mostly he is doing ok... . getting back on his feet.  Got his own apartment and a job etc.

Plan for the divorce is as follows:

Planning on filing a 'Joint' Non-contentious divorce.  I have done the legal calculations of asset values and plan on offering my husband slightly more than required by law.  I am filing for joint custody and my husband and I have a custody schedule that we have pretty much followed for the last couple of months.  My lawyer and I have discussed and planned ways not to trigger my husband (for example not having him served... . allowing him to go into the lawyer's office to sign the papers instead.

Mostly I am happy and at peace.  Its still a hard time  but I am completely at peace with everything that happened and how our situation is evolving.

[Matt]

Sounds encouraging!

You're avoiding the trap a lot of us fall into - swinging from putting up with way too much, to being inflexible or even hostile.  A good example is letting the other party pick up the papers instead of being served - a nice courtesy which probably saved you a little money too - common sense.

Stay on your toes - sometimes things go well for a while and then back to the drama - but at least you are doing what you can to resolve things moderately and reasonably.

[allibaba]

Hi Matt,

Yes.  I am hoping for the best but preparing for the worst.  I have also taken some safety steps (put in an alarm system, got a safety check done by the police)... .

I understand that my husband really loves me. 

He loves me the only way that he knows how. 

I will always love him too... .

but this relationship isn't good enough for me any more. 

I want to be as fair as possible to him.  If he chooses to act irrationally then I will detail with it as it happens. 

Its an ok place to be in

[momtara]

Hi Ali. I know how hard it was for you to get to this point.  I am glad you tried everything.  There are still days when I question whether I did the right thing in divorcing my x-husband.  It's stupid, considering how hurtful he can be.  It's just easy to forget that on the days when he's calm, funny, and trying to get help.  I know there was a time when you thought you might just stay separated for a year, and see if your H got the right treatment.  What got you to finally decide on divorce?

I think your son will be better for it, but I know you love your husband and that you are sad, too.  Setting boundaries and not triggering him are good moves.

I was careful with money during my divorce and it still cost me $20,000!  Much of it was in documenting stuff, having my lawyer submit financial info to the court - not even anything useful.  If you can work it out a better way, definitely do that. 

You deserve better than to be worried all the time.  We all do.  I know how hard it is to walk away from someone who you love who is sometimes such a vulnerable child.  Congrats on being so strong.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm glad to hear you are still strong and good with your choices.

I'm also glad to hear that your H is doing somewhat better.

I hope it continues to go (relatively) smoothly.

  GK

[livednlearned]

Having compassion for someone while protecting yourself takes serious strength. And boundaries.

I'm glad you're doing well, alli. Divorcing N/BPDx taught me so much. If you lean into the pain, it hurts, and you'll want to pull away. But don't turn away from it, even when it feels intolerable. That's the only way through.



LnL

[allibaba]

I know there was a time when you thought you might just stay separated for a year, and see if your H got the right treatment.  What got you to finally decide on divorce?

... .

I think your son will be better for it, but I know you love your husband and that you are sad, too. 

... .

You deserve better than to be worried all the time.  We all do.  I know how hard it is to walk away from someone who you love who is sometimes such a vulnerable child.  Congrats on being so strong.

Finally decided to get a divorce for the following reasons:  my husband is still blaming his behavior on everything but himself / mental illness.  Since he left I have heard 1.  That it was the diabetes / rheumatoid medication making him crazy (and HE IS CURED) 2.  That the doctors screwed everything up and he was on death's door and the entirety of medical profession in Canada is incompetent (shock of all shocks... . he took himself off all diabetes stuff insulin etc and he blood sugar went REALLY high.  Bizarre... . strange (sarcasm)  3.  It was drugs and alcohol!  (cough... . he smoked weed occasionally and drank NEVER).  He has also intermittently blamed everything on me.

So at the end of the day... . after 3 months, its easy.  Even with threat of losing me... . he still doesn't see that the root of all the problems isn't his body, its not the incompetent medical professions, its not prescriptions... . its him.  He is still in denial. 

And yes, part of it is that I deserve better than to be worried all the time.

The funny part is that if it had just been me... . I never would have left him... . but I absolutely could not stand the fact that he refused to protect our son.  That was beyond comprehension and beyond what I was willing to tolerate. 

[momtara]

Yup, I get it.  Glad you are more at peace w/your decision.

[zaqsert]

Hi allibaba,

I'm glad to see that you seem to be handling all this pretty well, all things considered.

The funny part is that if it had just been me... . I never would have left him... . but I absolutely could not stand the fact that he refused to protect our son.  That was beyond comprehension and beyond what I was willing to tolerate. 

Seeing the effect of BPD on our daughter (then 2, now 3) is what finally motivated me to start making changes of my own that helped to add some stability to our home.  Unfortunately, as these things go, the stability is not consistent, including towards our D3 -- which I suppose is one of the reasons why I have been reading up on this board in case I end up needing any of what I am learning from others here.

I hope this whole process goes as smoothly as possible for you, your son, and your husband.   

[allibaba]

The funny part is that if it had just been me... . I never would have left him... . but I absolutely could not stand the fact that he refused to protect our son.  That was beyond comprehension and beyond what I was willing to tolerate. 

Seeing the effect of BPD on our daughter (then 2, now 3) is what finally motivated me to start making changes of my own that helped to add some stability to our home.  Unfortunately, as these things go, the stability is not consistent, including towards our D3 -- which I suppose is one of the reasons why I have been reading up on this board in case I end up needing any of what I am learning from others here.

Zaqsert,

It still baffles me that I am here.  I joined these boards when our son was about a year old. 

I immediately saw the need for changes but I really believed that he loves me enough and loves our son enough to make changes in his behavior.  I really honestly thought if I became strong that he would follow.  The psychologist that I have seen says that I began to make peace with separating from him and broke the 'bonds' of codependent behavior through the process of using the tools.  She said that to effectively use them I had to get comfortable with the fact that I might lose him through the process.  She says that that is why I am coping so well at the moment. 

The morning that I kicked my husband out, my son said his first full sentence and it was ':)addy go now.  Daddy go.  Daddy go away now.  Go!'  Ok maybe it was a few sentences but that morning I heard my son put together his first complete thoughts verbally.  My husband was in the kitchen saying how bad a woman I am, how I had ruined his life, etc etc and I was in the bedroom hurrying to get our son dressed and get us out the door and away from his rage.  My heart broke when I heard a (not even 2 yr old) trying to defend mom with such intensity.  It broke my heart.  I had been working so hard (as we all do) to shelter him from dad's storms.  I realized that it wasn't good enough.  15 minutes later my husband slammed a car door on me (fortunately our son was well away from this... . already in the other car).  My husband had 'laid hands on me' in the past and I told him that if HE EVER TOUCHED ME AGAIN... . there would be NO NEGOTIATION and our relationship would be over. 

Even to that point I still thought that there was a remote possibility that he would seek treatment for mental illness.  Unfortunately no.  Even the first night that I came home to an empty house, I was relieved.  A month ago, our son's daycare provider shared that she started to see real stress manifesting in our son the 2 weeks before I kicked my husband out.  All along I had been trying to give my husband the best shot at staying but I was watching our son like a hawk for the day where it wasn't good enough anymore... . and the day I saw it... . was the day that I took action. 

Ironically, I think that this is actually best for all three of us in the long run   Since moving out he is starting to get his life together.  I believe that he is probably at the mild scale of BPD (and probably mildly bipolar)... . when he is standing on his own two feet he tends to do better... . If you truly love something... . set it free   I truly love my husband and that is why we can't be together any more

[momtara]

That last sentence almost made me cry.  You are so strong. 

I think it's just too hard to live with men like this when you have kids.  (I wonder if both of us would have stayed longer and let ourselves be abused if not for the kids!)  It seems like you got out just in time, esp with what your son was saying.

My son was starting to defend me too when he was under 2.  One day, my xH kept yelling at me, "Are you going to clean that up?" My son kept responding, "No!"

You certainly gave your husband plenty of chances.  I'm not sure I was aware that things got physical.  Definitely time to go.

[ForeverDad]

The morning that I kicked my husband out, my son said his first full sentence and it was ':)addy go now.  Daddy go.  Daddy go away now.  Go!'  Ok maybe it was a few sentences but that morning I heard my son put together his first complete thoughts verbally.  My husband was in the kitchen saying how bad a woman I am, how I had ruined his life, etc etc and I was in the bedroom hurrying to get our son dressed and get us out the door and away from his rage.  My heart broke when I heard a (not even 2 yr old) trying to defend mom with such intensity.  It broke my heart.  I had been working so hard (as we all do) to shelter him from dad's storms.  I realized that it wasn't good enough.

I probably should look at my older emails to narrow down the event but I seem to recall my son was 22 months old when this happened:

I worried too, is she going to be happy to see me when I get home, or fuming?  I could never predict it.  Sometimes when I left her furious and angry, I'd come home and she was just fine.  Other times I left her happy and I'd come home and the dragons were rampaging, so to speak.  And when she was in that mode, she was furious, it had to be her way, she was going the wear the pants in the family, I had to apologize until she liked the wording, and she'd rant without even caring that our toddler was right there until towards the end her voice would give out and she'd be sobbing.  Sometimes he hid under the dining room table, sometimes out of sight in a corner beside the couch. His first sentence was "Mommy bad."  What he was trying to say was "Mommy [feels] bad."  Oh, did that get her angry with him when she heard it!  Of course, now that we're in the midst of a divorce, I don't know how she treats him when he's with her.  The most I can do at this point is give him a safe and calm home when he's with me.  Her logic makes no sense at all to a normal person except that it fits the BPD behaviors.

I can see how my wife affects our child.  Anytime I mention her he gets noticeably quieter and wonders when he has to go back... .

I remember when he was 2 and 3 that I felt he was speaking less than normal and wouldn't look me in the eyes, even told the pediatrician that when he was 3, worried he was environmentally autistic. I remember his first sentence to me was two words, "mommy bad", meaning "mommy [feels] bad" since she was in a depression period then, she'd rant and rave, then go lie down sobbing.  Yeah, get out the Baby Book and write down his first sentence, mommy bad, sheesh.  But he did improve after our separation, so I presume either he was getting older, getting therapy or she didn't rage at him or around him as much as she did when I was a handy target.  Or maybe a bit of all three.

From the mouths of children... . Yes, children know at some level even if they can't communicate it well.  There comes a point where we accept that we simply can't manage the family relationship with one hand tied behind our backs, it take two to make it work and when one is so frequently oppositional then we just have to choose another Path, as much as it pains us to have to do it.

[livednlearned]

I'm going to lock this thread since it's reached the 4-page limit, but that just means Alli can start a new thread so we can keep following along. Alli -- I know people want to hear from you, so please start a new thread letting us know how you're doing. I'm so glad you came back to let us know you're in a good (tho difficult) place.  

LnL