BPD and finances

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So... . I'd like to read stories from those that have successfully worked through issues caused by BPD on finances.

the quick version is that I... . very unwisely... . in the days before I understood BPD... . tossed up my hands and stopped trying... . because everything I did was wrong... . or was about me hiding money... . or me hiding money for my "other honey"... . or whatever.

I figured if she is only one touching it... . she can't accuse me of stuff... .   I figured wrong.

Then... . for those following my story... . you know she moved $30k into her bank account. 

Who knows what has been done with that.

That pretty much takes me down to paycheck to paycheck.  Luckily I make good money.  I have no accounts for "just me".  They are all joint.

Many credit cards way behind.

We have a number of properties... . she has either been watching those... . or nobody is caring for them. 

I'm sure my attitude is a bad reaction to all the years of BPD drama... . but I'm over the worrying about money and trying to build a future.  If all I'm going to get is b___ed out or accused... . why bother.

I can put in a lot less work... . and there will be less things for her to be suspicious about... .

And... . effectively... . she has complete control.  In large part I gave it to her (unwisely)... . and then she took the last bit.

If she puts her mind to it she is competent to do this... . but I don't think she really wants to manage it. 

So... I know I need to address this at some point.   My other issues seem more important at the moment and the money is not that big of a deal to me right now.

I figure that I made a bunch... . if it all goes away... . someday... . I'll make a bunch more.  Or I won't and that will be fine too.

Again... . I'm pretty sure my attitude about this is not healthy right now.  Also sure this is probably not my top priority... . but I do need to start working on this... . somehow.

Thoughts?

[formflier]

So... . I'd like to read stories from those that have successfully worked through issues caused by BPD on finances.

the quick version is that I... . very unwisely... . in the days before I understood BPD... . tossed up my hands and stopped trying... . because everything I did was wrong... . or was about me hiding money... . or me hiding money for my "other honey"... . or whatever.

I figured if she is only one touching it... . she can't accuse me of stuff... .   I figured wrong.

Then... . for those following my story... . you know she moved $30k into her bank account. 

Who knows what has been done with that.

That pretty much takes me down to paycheck to paycheck.  Luckily I make good money.  I have no accounts for "just me".  They are all joint.

Many credit cards way behind.

We have a number of properties... . she has either been watching those... . or nobody is caring for them. 

I'm sure my attitude is a bad reaction to all the years of BPD drama... . but I'm over the worrying about money and trying to build a future.  If all I'm going to get is b___ed out or accused... . why bother.

I can put in a lot less work... . and there will be less things for her to be suspicious about... .

And... . effectively... . she has complete control.  In large part I gave it to her (unwisely)... . and then she took the last bit.

If she puts her mind to it she is competent to do this... . but I don't think she really wants to manage it. 

So... I know I need to address this at some point.   My other issues seem more important at the moment and the money is not that big of a deal to me right now.

I figure that I made a bunch... . if it all goes away... . someday... . I'll make a bunch more.  Or I won't and that will be fine too.

Again... . I'm pretty sure my attitude about this is not healthy right now.  Also sure this is probably not my top priority... . but I do need to start working on this... . somehow.

Thoughts?

[maxsterling]

Don't know if I can help your situation, but boy I can relate.  I see an ultimate doom in our r/s over money.  She can't stop obsessing over money, yet is apparently incapable of keeping a job, and incapable of spending wisely.  My feeling is no matter how much I made, we'd still have those issues.  So what's the point of trying to earn more?  She gives me flack about not earning enough, or living paycheck to paycheck.  My income was plenty for just me!

[waverider]

I think your issue here is that you are aware that the lack of control you have over this leaves you feeling vulnerable to the fact that and irresponsible mind is in charge of your financial well being. This will breed a resentment no matter how much accept it on the surface.

The amount of wealth is not important as potential waste can expand to absorb the funds available.

One issue to consider is that her knowledge that she has complete control over it may contribute to the lack of respect she may show to you, so it flows back into other aspects of your life. Few aspects of this disorder are stand alone. having "you space" "your stuff" "your boundaries" needs to be consistent part of your personality, and life in general.

You need an isolated base amount that keeps your head above water as a fallback, and you can allow the rest to be "whatever' if you like.

One of her driving forces for wanting control over this is to ensure that you don't have control over it. As she doesn't trust you, taking away your control is her way of fixing it. The responsibility for administering it is probably of little interest, which will wax and wane as suites her needs.

You are right squabbling over "disposable" income is such a waste of life. It is however important I believe to draw that line between what is disposable and what is not.

[nothing]

She took 30k > now your paycheck to paycheck

Credit cards > behind

You are talking about working less so she is not so suspicious about what you are doing

In her control you are going down hill. You have to get control back. Get rid of the joint accounts. Your money goes in your account.

Ask her for the 30 k out of her personal bank account to pay off the credit cards.

I had no control guess where I am now. Poor, unemployed, lost everything and I am now just a total nothing.

[formflier]

I think your issue here is that you are aware that the lack of control you have over this leaves you feeling vulnerable to the fact that and irresponsible mind is in charge of your financial well being. This will breed a resentment no matter how much accept it on the surface.

Agreed... . and also... I'm pissed at myself for giving up so much control in an attempt to make things better.  At some point I need to get over that... .

One issue to consider is that her knowledge that she has complete control over it may contribute to the lack of respect she may show to you, so it flows back into other aspects of your life. Few aspects of this disorder are stand alone. having "you space" "your stuff" "your boundaries" needs to be consistent part of your personality, and life in general.

Interesting thought:  I haven't really thought of doing things to increase her respect for me... . I see how that can help. 

One of her driving forces for wanting control over this is to ensure that you don't have control over it. As she doesn't trust you, taking away your control is her way of fixing it. The responsibility for administering it is probably of little interest, which will wax and wane as suites her needs.

The waxing and waning is the part that is frustrating... . because she can do it... . she has the skills.  However... she would rather figure out who lives in the secret rental property that I have kept from her for years and years... . rather than making sure (fill in the blank) is done to properly manage the property we actually have.

  It is however important I believe to draw that line between what is disposable and what is not.

So... . how do you suggest I have a conversation... . that is productive... . with my uBPDw about where to draw that line... .

That... is the million dollar question.  My gut says give it a few more weeks... . but... . at some point this should be addressed.

[waverider]

Dont do things to gain her respect. Do things to regain your self respect. Her respect may come from that, or it may not, that is a byproduct. You can't make anyone respect you.

As far as "having the conversation", what will that achieve? She will deny, accuse, escalate, you will back down. Just do it, thats is your right as an adult. Of course she wont like it and try to bring the sky down on your head, no matter what you do.

[GaGrl]

Take  back control of your rental properties, even if you have to turn it over to a property management group. Set up your own account and direct all retirement and current salaries into that account. Provide her an appropriate amount for household maintenance each month.

Take back the power that comes from what you have earned and built for your family over the years.

[mace17]

I agree that keeping your finances separate is the way to go. My uBPDh is horrible with money, he just wants to hoard it and never pay for anything, so I am glad I have my own money. I pay for most of the bills and all our son's expenses because I can't get him to ever give up any money. I've given up trying, I am always broke and live paycheck to paycheck, but at least I'm able to pay for what I need to and know where it's going. I would open your own account and put at least some money in there for yourself out of every check to start with.

[andywho]

Dont do things to gain her respect. Do things to regain your self respect. Her respect may come from that, or it may not, that is a byproduct. You can't make anyone respect you.

As far as "having the conversation", what will that achieve? She will deny, accuse, escalate, you will back down. Just do it, thats is your right as an adult. Of course she wont like it and try to bring the sky down on your head, no matter what you do.

Havent been active in here for a long while, but im stalking from time to time.

Saw this post from wave and just had to pop in to confirm the importance of what he is writing here. Not only when it comes to finances, but in many many aspects to living a life like many of us do.


Andy

[formflier]

Update on this.

There is a plan being formulated to take back control of the finances.  Family T is involved.

My guess is that this is weeks or months away from actually happening... but it is being discussed.

Most likely it will look like all money being deposited to my account and on certain days of month "more than enough" money will be put in her account to handle household expenses.

The thinking is that I will become a benevolent dictator with money.

Not doing it sooner do to other priorities.

Honestly... . money is a tool for me... . but not a priority.

Most likely my uBPDw views it as power... . and she has systematically been stripping me of power.

I need to get it back... . but need to be smart about it.

[waverider]

Update on this.

There is a plan being formulated to take back control of the finances.  Family T is involved.

My guess is that this is weeks or months away from actually happening... but it is being discussed.

Most likely it will look like all money being deposited to my account and on certain days of month "more than enough" money will be put in her account to handle household expenses.

The thinking is that I will become a benevolent dictator with money.

Not doing it sooner do to other priorities.

Honestly... . money is a tool for me... . but not a priority.

Most likely my uBPDw views it as power... . and she has systematically been stripping me of power.

I need to get it back... . but need to be smart about it.

It will be a lot easier for you given that you see money more objectively as a tool to supply your needs, rather than the often instinctive desire to hang on to as much as possible. That way you wont be drawn into conflict about disposable funds. This is the hard bit for most as eliminating waste completely is near imposssible

Good luck

[KateCat]

This is purely armchair quarterbacking from someone who is not lifting a finger while you are hoisting boulders on many fronts, but might it not be a better plan to take this action now, before it turns into a months-long power struggle:

Take  back control of your rental properties, even if you have to turn it over to a property management group. Set up your own account and direct all retirement and current salaries into that account. Provide her an appropriate amount for household maintenance each month.

Take back the power that comes from what you have earned and built for your family over the years.

I guess I see all your other family issues as being more slippery and ambiguous than this one. And this one helps keep the ship afloat.

[Grey Kitty]

I'd be making sure that *some* money went into an account in just your name... . unless you know that you can get short term assistance from your parents or others.

Otherwise, the "long game" for that seems reasonable.

The other part I'm wondering on is that I think you said she has taken control of rental properties. If those are managed wrong, it can turn into quite a mess. What is your strategy on them?

[KateCat]

My thoughts were primarily with the rental properties. If your wife has already "lost" one of them due to a belief that you were using it as a place to rendezvous with women, then when she feels stress and pressure from the challenges she is going to face moving forward, what might happen with other properties.

Have you talked with a financial advisor lately? That might help guide you going forward, and a professional of this type might be someone who could "take the blame" for a new financial regimen for the family.

[GaGrl]

My DH is a financial advisor, which is why I come from the position I do. Too many people lose assets from sheer inattention.

[formflier]

It will be a lot easier for you given that you see money more objectively as a tool to supply your needs, rather than the often instinctive desire to hang on to as much as possible. That way you wont be drawn into conflict about disposable funds. This is the hard bit for most as eliminating waste completely is near imposssible

Good luck

Yes agreed.  Also through "my side" of family.  Funds are there if needed.  My Dad raised me right... . once I was out of the house I made my own $$ and I wanted to be independent.  However... . he has recently made the point again to me that he will gladly help if needed.

So... . I have the luxury of continuing to use money as a tool... . knowing there is zero chance my family ends up on street... . or hungry. 

If there is financial embarrassment... . foreclosure notices in paper... . whatever... . I won't advertise the fact that it is uBPDw... . but I won't hide her from the consequences.

I do have a question... . if people ask what is up with a foreclosure notice... . what should I say?

I have thought about saying in a factual manner... . that my wife has taken control of family finances and they should contact her with questions.  There are some other financial arrangements where people are owed money etc etc... . and I am considering referring them to her.  Literally... . right now... I don't know if some have been paid or not.

A big part of me says... . she has bought this problem... and to let her wrestle with it. 

I am considering at next MC asking her to meet with CPA to get going on tax return. 

I have another interesting issue in next few months.  Depending on what I do or don't know about what she has done with money... . do I file a joint return with her? 

Sigh... .

[formflier]

My thoughts were primarily with the rental properties. If your wife has already "lost" one of them due to a belief that you were using it as a place to rendezvous with women, then when she feels stress and pressure from the challenges she is going to face moving forward, what might happen with other properties.

Have you talked with a financial advisor lately? That might help guide you going forward, and a professional of this type might be someone who could "take the blame" for a new financial regimen for the family.

Yeah... reference my other post... . I'm thinking of pushing to have her meet with our CPA.

Part of my plan that involves "making lemonade out of lemons"... . is that I don't want to cover for any of the financial issues that my uBPDw "causes".

Hopefully it won't ever end up in divorce court... . but... I can document this was done against my will... . and that it was done at times when she was accusing me of doing... . what she actually did.  Hiding money.

I also can document threats made against me... if I didn't do this or that with assets.   

I can also use that to "shine the light on the disorder"... .

And... . again to illustrate my "value on money"... . if loosing lots of money helps my wife get treatment... or realize there is a problem... . or if it helps the courts accurately decide who is disordered... and who is not... .

Then it is well worth it.

Sigh... .

[KateCat]

Yikes, formflier, I now feel more concerned for your family. Are you kind of in the dark regarding your entire financial situation?

[formflier]

Yikes, formflier, I now feel more concerned for your family. Are you kind of in the dark regarding your entire financial situation?

Yes... I am in the dark about finance "in" the family.  But luckily have a good "backstop" (my FOO)

I also know for a fact that she does have the skills to properly manage the businesses and everything.

If she can make good... unemotional decisions... . it could work out fine and be less work for me... . BUT... . there is no evidence that is happening now.

Everything shows this to be some kind of power play... .

[formflier]

Yikes, formflier, I now feel more concerned for your family. Are you kind of in the dark regarding your entire financial situation?

Yeah... I am concerned about this... . but relative to kids safety, no corporal punishment, continuing family t... . etc etc... . it's not a big deal.

I just want to have thought this through... . so that my responses are most effective to help wife in treatment. 

In other words I don't want to financially "invalidate" her and make it worse

[KateCat]

You've had the courage to have so many important talks: with your pastor, your co-workers, the social workers, the therapists.

I guess I see the talk(s) about finances as being equally important. (And I think I can totally see how you don't want to appear to be on the attack against your wife on all fronts. You want to validate her efforts. That should be really important just now.)

Here are a few things I wonder--and I am not in any way a person with much financial knowledge:

Are your parents aware that they are the backup plan?

What is the status of this foreclosure action? Have you had a discussion about redeeming the property from foreclosure? Would it be of some psychic value to you as a public official to avert a foreclosure?

Do you have savings set aside for a rainy day (like the six months' living expenses I've heard a few advisors mention)? Can you work with your wife to move toward that goal? Maybe that would be a satisfying mutual goal.

You don't really mean this do you? "If losing lots of money helps my wife get treatment . . . then it is well worth it."

[formflier]

You've had the courage to have so many important talks: with your pastor, your co-workers, the social workers, the therapists.

True... . I see where you are going with this.  However... . the one nuance is in those cases... . my uBPDw didn't "take ownership"... . or "take" something from me... . as the process.  Note:  I'm seeing nuance here... . there may be none... . or people may think it odd that I see nuance here.  Still turning this over in my mind.

I guess I see the talk(s) about finances as being equally important. (And I think I can totally see how you don't want to appear to be on the attack against your wife on all fronts. You want to validate her efforts. That should be really important just now.)

So... I have the attitude that if she wants it... she can have it... and my stance would be more that she knows she is accountable to "do it right".  Go to CPA... take the lead on filling out the forms the CPA needs to get tax returns done etc etc.

Most likely she doesn't think that what she has done is that big of a deal.  And if she can avoid doing the work that is required to manage the money and "business aspects" of the marriage... . then shew would be right.  

As a matter of legal responsibility... . if she took the money and I am stick actively trying to manage everything... . then it muddies the waters about if I was ok with her taking money.

Right now if you look at my actions and what the record supports... . she takes money... . I protest and stop participating in the family business.  If the record showed that I protested but kept working at it... . I would think that would show some sort of being OK with current situation.  

Here are a few things I wonder--and I am not in any way a person with much financial knowledge:

That's fine... . I probably don't have as much knowledge as I give myself credit for.  And on most things I defer to CPA, L and those kinds of things.

Are your parents aware that they are the backup plan?

Yes... . I haven't explained to them exactly what is going on... . they don't even know about DSS.  On advice from pastor and T... . I have spared them details.  

What is the status of this foreclosure action? Have you had a discussion about redeeming the property from foreclosure? Would it be of some psychic value to you as a public official to avert a foreclosure?

My impression is that we are at point of threatening letters.

I have had a discussion with uBPDw about this... redeeming and she seemed in agreement.

No real psychic value.  It would certainly highlight that things are going on in my relationship.  Questions may be asked...  I do need to have answers ready for that and my general plan is to refer questions to my wife and point out that she is in control.  

Do you have savings set aside for a rainy day (like the six months' living expenses I've heard a few advisors mention)? Can you work with your wife to move toward that goal? Maybe that would be a satisfying mutual goal.

No rainy day fund.  Or I should say that the $30k was the savings.  We are "rich" will illiquid assets and much poorer than we should be in cash.

You don't really mean this do you? "If losing lots of money helps my wife get treatment . . . then it is well worth it."

Hmm... . let me re-explain.  That is more of a value statement.  So... . I have obviously proven to the world that "if beating my kids helps her get treatment"... . is NOT part of my values.  

The gulf in importance between importance I put on my kids safety and my control of $$ is huge.

Also... . her actions with money really highlight her dysfunctional behavior and thinking.

I have written proof that she was accusing me of hiding money... . "taking" things from her.

Our MC and family T acknowledge that I have denied these and INVITED scrutiny into family financial decisions that I was a part of.  I have also asked repeatedly for her to show me the transactions... . the things that concern her so I can explain.  So I can give a good answer.

Never once has there been any bank statement brought forward... . or any kind of thing.

I have looked in the financial records and see nothing resembling what she has described in counseling.

MC was nodding and agreeing when I reminded her and uBPDw that I have repeatedly asked for documentation so I can explain or fix it.

uBPDw said that she just "happened" to be out driving around and put the $$ in a different bank "so she could get a roof put on".  

I watched MC as she is explaining this.  MC is not a "detailed" question person... . she wants us to talk about our feelings and such... . rather than have us feel like we are on the witness stand in there.

MC did follow up to confirm uBPDw thinking... and wife confirmed story again.

Right after this was when MC for first time indicated that uBPDw should do "individual work" with a T... . that there were lots of pieces missing.

I an convinced that the ridiculousness of the reasoning and the written record of her alleging that I was doing the things that she then turned around and actually did... . played a part in convincing the MC that there is some really odd thinking going on with uBPDw

[HoldingAHurricane]

Finances are a big issue for both of us. Quite rightly, he wants some control over the finances because without some control he feels very vulnerable, which is triggering. For me, I want to ensure the security of the whole family unit.

There are 2 risks for us. One is when he becomes dissociated. When that happens, he is capable of everything and anything and we have lost quite a bit of money with him withdrawing money from the accounts and spending on frivolous or destructive things. The second risk, is the impulsive spending with no tracking of the amounts.

When we got together he was in 1000's of dollars of debt from both issues. We have struggled with a solution and have settled for one neither of us prefer but find necessary. All the money goes into my accounts to which he has no access. I pay all the bills and make sure we have savings. He and I hold a joint account (very important to him) and his spending money goes into that. He can spend on whatever he likes (I don't monitor or comment unless invited to) and we negotiated that amount together when he was in his well mind.

It remains a non-negotiable for me for him not to have access to the bulk of the money and its the one boundary I have successfully stuck to. I really hate the inequity of it but I believe it is necessary for the time being. We regularly sit down and go over the accounts so he can see where the money goes and I consult him about financial choices and my spending which is respectful and appropriate. We both hope to move to something more power sharing in the future.

When he becomes dissociated he demands 'his share' of the money and gets quite distressed about his vulnerability in having no access. I have found find it necessary from time to time to cancel the card he has because he knows how to overdraw it. I can empathise with how scary and crappy that feels to him. I would hate it too.

[KateCat]

Can you use an online resource like Zillow.com to learn the status of the property foreclosure action?

[formflier]

Can you use an online resource like Zillow.com to learn the status of the property foreclosure action?

Yeah... we have letters and can contact the bank.

Basically they are at the point where they can actually file the foreclosure... . whenever they want.  Most banks wait well past that time.  So... up to this point we have been warned and threatened... but no actual filing.

My guess is we have several months... . banks just aren't that efficient.

How did we get to this point? 

Well... . one of the things that I HATE... . about the BPD thing is the do this or else... . or the I'm going to do this and I don't care what you think... . attitude.

So... . the money is OURS.  If we can't reach consensus on what to do with it... . nothing gets done.  Since I don't like being threatened... . I'm not going to threaten someone else... . I'm not going to force my will on her.

Otherwise... I'd be doing to her... . what I want her to stop doing to me. 

I am getting lots of advice that I should just do the right thing... pay the bills... . and forget about it.

And... . well... . now that isn't actually possible since the money is in her account.

What a mess... .

[KateCat]

Whew, I'm glad you're on top of the foreclosure action. I watched a family member's property go into judicial foreclosure with lightning speed--like sixty days from start to complete judicial finish. (As it happened this was prime Midwestern farmland with about 70% equity on the part of my relative, so the bank had an incentive to seize it quickly.) Luckily, we were able to raise family money in a flash and get an attorney to appeal to the judge to reverse the decision. I had thought all U.S. foreclosures took a couple years to complete.  

Does this property come to you from your parents? Would they want to use their money to save this property?

ADDED: I've been looking online in my area with an intent to buy a retirement property. It seems to me that the "pre-market" listings really facilitate the circling of the vultures, as they state who owns the property; the amount of the original loan; the name of the lending institution; amount outstanding on the loan; and amount delinquent. . . . So potential buyers can kind of handicap the whole scene. This is all news to me.

[formflier]

Whew, I'm glad you're on top of the foreclosure action. I watched a family member's property go into judicial foreclosure with lightning speed--like sixty days from start to complete judicial finish. (As it happened this was prime Midwestern farmland with about 70% equity on the part of my relative, so the bank had an incentive to seize it quickly.) Luckily, we were able to raise family money in a flash and get an attorney to appeal to the judge to reverse the decision. I had thought all U.S. foreclosures took a couple years to complete. 

Does this property come to you from your parents? Would they want to use their money to save this property?

That's exactly why it went so fast... . you got it.

They are investment properties... purchased back when real estate was gang busters.

They are good properties... . but I see no incentive to "save" them... . especially when doing so would take away time from other things that I consider more important.

[KateCat]

Glad to hear this is not "the family farm."