The intimacy thing

[caughtnreleased]

So, I've read a lot about how a pwBPD cannot actually engage in an emotionally intimate adult relationship.  However, it's clear, from my own experience, and from reading all the posts on this site, that clearly in these relationships there is at least an IMPRESSION from the non of deep intimacy.   In fact, when I was in the presence of my BPDex, we had what felt like a very intimate relationship... .to the point where I felt more comfortable opening up to him, and being vulnerable, than to anyone else that I've been involved with.  We were so incredibly gentle, kind, caring and supportive of eachother when we were TOGETHER... .I had never experienced it before. The problem of course, was that there was no consistency to him as he was constantly in the push pull dynamic.   So I wouldn't see him often and when I did I would intentionally try and have important conversations with him, and he engaged.  Then, we would be apart, and he would generally provoke some kind of crisis between us, we'd fight and then not see eachother again for a while.

So what I'd like to better understand is that I really did feel intimate with him,  but if, as so much information on BPD discusses, there's a problem of intimacy, what does an TRULY intimate relationship feel like?  All my previous boyfriends, prior to my pwBPD were actually quite cold... .we were not kind, considerate and caring to eachother, but those relationships were more stable.  I feel that my BPDex was capable of initimacy, just not capable of SUSTAINING it.  Would that be the only difference between an adult intimate relationship, and a pwBPD? a pwBPD will have deep flashes of intimacy, but then will sabotage?   It's very strange, but I feel like he was the first with whom I felt such deep intimacy.  it didn't last, but I still experienced a level of intimacy with him that I would eventually like to pursue with someone who is healthy, but is that even possible because intimacy with someone who is healthy just doesn't feel like that?  I'd be interested in your insights!

[PhoenixBlack]

In my experience, my BPDexgf was in floods of tears tears and basically an incoherent mess when we got emotionally intimate and she was so afraid to open up as in her words "I'm terrified to love you if you don't love me back". That day and her words... hearing the panic in her voice still haunts me so much. I've never experienced intimacy like that with someone who was healthy though. Not even in relationships lasting years. Maybe I've just been unlucky.

[Infern0]

In my case obviously I can be a soppy romantic at times and she did not respond well to that. All the time it was fun and I was giving her the "ah you ain't too bad I guess" she loved that kind of thing. But when I told her that in actual fact I loved her and though she was amazing she broke down in a complete state and that was the beginning of the end.

It's weird because her friends said she always talked about me and she said good things about me, but the replacement she has openly admitted she is "embarrassed" of and she clearly has no feelings for him, just likes the money he spends/spent on her (I suspect he's legged it hence her now trying to charm me)

So it's odd, it was almost like it got too real for her. I belive she did actually have feelings for me and that's what made me so terrifying

[fromheeltoheal]

I had what I thought was a deep intimacy with my ex too, at least for a while, when she was intensely interested in everything that was going on with me, analyzed my breathing on the phone, caressing and speaking softly to each other in bed, very connected and responsive.  But I realized later that a borderline has a very different motivation: to complete themselves, become whole, attach psyches in an unhealthy way.  That 'seems' like true intimacy to someone who's being attached to, and feels intense, but we all know what happens next, as the pathology goes through its cycle.

So what's real, sustainable intimacy?  A friendship that is based on complete trust and respect, along with a female/male polarity that is where passion comes from.  And a desire on both partner's parts to make their partner their number one priority.  And then, those things in place, challenges will come up, and as the couple works through them, they either get closer together or farther apart; if the trust, respect, polarity and focus stay in place, they will get closer.  Then they've got history together, making the relationship more mature and stronger, and making ongoing intimacy available and easy.

See, I can spew something that sounds good and feels right to anonymous people here, but the real world?  Not successful yet, but at least I have a target and am putting myself out there... .

[Conundrum]

What you felt was real and it was intimate. Intimacy, in a moment in time w a pwBpd can be esquisite. It is the aspirational ideal come to life in the material world. It is beyond what we have come to expect from our regulated lives. It is not linear, though asymmetrical and profoundly earth-shaking.

As Eliot wrote:

"For I have known them all already, known them all: Have known the evenings, mornings, afternoons,

I have measured out my life with coffee spoons;   

I know the voices dying with a dying fall   

Beneath the music from a farther room.   

So how should I presume.

And I have known the eyes already, known them all

The eyes that fix you in a formulated phrase,   

And when I am formulated, sprawling on a pin,   

When I am pinned and wriggling on the wall,   

Then how should I begin   

To spit out all the butt-ends of my days and ways?         

And how should I presume?

[drummerboy]

This is a really good question. Before meeting my exBPD I had been in 3 long term relationships, 4 years, 10 years and 7 years. In the first few months of meeting my exBPDgf I had feelings of closeness and intimacy I had NEVER felt in my life. I was totally swept off my feet and it made me believe that finally, this what what real love is all about. The feelings with her were way more intense than the feelings with anyone I had ever been with. I had never felt such a deep connection before, a whole new dimension.

Now with some distance I see that there was a lot of mirroring and there was a knight in shining armour/codependent person, me that just lapped up the intensity that a BPD can display. Remember, BPD's feel everything super intensively. They love harder and hate harder. The love she showered on me was totally intoxicating. It didn't hurt that she was 19 years younger than me. This is why the end is so hard and why it could be so tempting to go back, that "love" and yes it is love, is more powerful than any drug. But it is a sugar high (her words), it's unsustainable (her words).

There is a pretty good chance that I will never again feel that level of unrestrained, intimacy but what I do hope I will find is something with a great deal more reality to it.

[Pingo]

I wonder about this as well.  I thought what I had was tremendous intimacy with my uBPDexh but now when I look back I am realising maybe that was part of the fantasy.  I distinctly remember during the first few months of our r/s wondering if he was capable of being violent or at least the type to stalk if we should break up... .how could I have had real intimacy with a man who I actually thought this about?  There were trust issues right from the start.  There cannot be real intimacy without total trust. 

I just finished 'The Betrayal Bond' by Patrick Carnes and he says intensity is mistaken for intimacy.  I found these excerpts in the book review section:

From Patrick J. Carnes, Ph.D

1) High intensity is often mistaken for intimacy.

When you come from a family in which members showed little emotion or affection, and you meet someone around whom there are lots of feelings, you might perceive this as intimacy. At least there are feelings. But if the feelings are about high drama, betrayal, and passionate reconciliations, it is not intimacy. It is intensity. And it is both absorbing and addictive. The addiction is about high arousal and high risk.

2) Intensity exists in relationships when there is betrayal and drama triangles.

Intensity thrives on fear and arousal- especially sexual arousal or the fear of sexual betrayal (did this person cheat on you?) You're likely to believe that they will cheat again.

Intense relationships often have one person pushing while the other is pulling. There is always the prospect of more betrayal and abandonment to come. The anxiety that this causes is so unbearable, that the only way to control it is to *create drama* to keep it at the surface, where people think it can be resolved- but instead, they feel it. High drama becomes a way to manage anxiety.

Dramatic exits, whether slamming of doors or jumping out of cars, or leaving people in the middle of nowhere- act out the anxiety. Rather than using the tension as a way to constructively resolve the conflict, it serves to bond two people traumatically. There is no soothing calm. There is no way to resolve the conflict either, because the conflict is what both people feel keeps the anxiety under control. Episode after episode means that the drama is the bulk of the relationship. *This is called a Trauma Bond.*

Trauma Bond: Consists of victim/victimizer, fear and arousal, push/pull, threats of betrayal and abandonment, high drama, no structure or rules, high distraction, built on secrecy, escalation, episode after episode.

Fear intensifies all human attachment. Fear escalates the reactivity of the body, which in turn escalates all the survival options; arousal, blocking, splitting, abstinence, shame, repetition and bonding. (Who wouldn't look like a Borderline at this point?)

"Intimacy, in contrast, starts with mutuality and respect. There is neither exploitation by abuse of power, nor betrayal of trust. Passion flows from vulnerability and care- and it is a function of the soul. Intimacy relies on safety and patience. Healthy intimacy usually has no secrets. *Intensity require secrecy and develops from it.*

Intimacy pushes partners to grow. Conflicts that arise in intimacy result in negotiation and a clear understanding about fair fighting. Absent are the fear and anxiety of intensity. Constancy and vulnerability create more of the epic rather than the episodic."

~ The Betrayal Bond. Patrick J. Carnes, Ph.D

[freedom33]

I think there is a confusion of intensity and infatuation with real intimacy and love. I have had my share of relationships and was lucky to have at least one that was healthy and based on true love. It started off quite normal, friendly and not aggressive and electric at all. I mean she was smoking hot, but the whole thing was nice and friendly. Not edgy as with the BPD. As time passed real intimacy and expression of vulnerability on both sides helped to build trust and love. Also it became more and more fun and the intensity and passion too. In about month 10-11 I thought that this is going really well and I may even love this person. Sex started to get amazing after month six, seven. In the end we had so much fun, did so many thing together, the sex was unbelievable in year 2 onwards. A good relationship takes time to build.

If the person is right for you and there is a good fit (i.e. you just like the person to start with - nothing crazy) the more you stay with them the better, more intense, more intimate and more fun the whole thing gets.  I also thought that before i met my xBPD I never experienced love before. But one thing that never convinced me of the genuiness of my feelings of love for my exBPD was a little test I did back when I was with her and that is that I wouldn't have given or risked my life for her (even when I was wildly in love with her), whereas for my healthy gf, I 'd genuinely would have. This pure selfless love that I had for her can not compare with BPD infatuation.

[freedom33]

1) High intensity is often mistaken for intimacy.

When you come from a family in which members showed little emotion or affection, and you meet someone around whom there are lots of feelings, you might perceive this as intimacy. At least there are feelings. But if the feelings are about high drama, betrayal, and passionate reconciliations, it is not intimacy. It is intensity. And it is both absorbing and addictive. The addiction is about high arousal and high risk.

That makes absolute sense to me. This is the family that I come from. Now to bring it back to my previous post - my healthy ex had a lot of strong emotions too. But they were positively and constructively expressed and properly contained. helped me as well as I tend to be quite reserved with my feelings.

[whatathing]

I agree that there must be caution identifying what intimacy means. The pwBPD get us so involved with them because there is a strong similarity between our r/s with them and our primal attachments in infancy with our parents/caregivers. It re-enacts the emotions we felt in infancy, and so it has a strong familiar quality, we communicate at a very emotional and internal level with our pwBPD. But that isn´t equal to intimacy. Intimacy is kind of being able to be emotionally "nude" in front of your partner, and having positive feelings of trust and emotional connection while being so. It´s hard to define, because it´s something that many of us don´t have the bodily and affective language to recognize it. It isn´t simply talking about everything or being very aroused by desire. It´s kind of a partnership in a deep level, where we are able to be ourselves with the other person. It also has to do with empathy and reciprocity. Reciprocity is something that many nons are used to not have from others, so we also don´t recognize it much. To really look and be looked, whithout having the need do emotionally disguise or escape the anxiety of that open encounter. It´s not simple! And very often, us nons also aren´t used to real intimacy, we too have our issues with that, so it´s hard to us to identify it too, and that makes it easier to mistake intense feelings for intimacy.

So, my answer to your question, is that maybe there is something about the nature of intimact that´s escaping here. In my experience with my uBPDexgf, I felt very close to her, but at the same time it felt that this closeness was yet remained unfulfilled. Like there was more of a promise of intimacy than real intimacy, materialized in attitudes, gestures, communication. She felt like "butter", seemed to escape, to pour out of my hands and be unaccessible in some way. She didn´t let herself "land" on the r/s. That surely couldn´t be called intimacy, although it felt really deep and close.

[Pingo]

Intimacy is kind of being able to be emotionally "nude" in front of your partner, and having positive feelings of trust and emotional connection while being so.

I think that really explains intimacy!  My ex was very affectionate and loved to share intimate details (mostly his details)... .until he didn't.  I would get so enraptured by him, feel so connected, loved... .Then I'd say the wrong thing and bam!  I was getting the cold silent treatment.  So I wasn't really being intimate with him.  I couldn't be 'nude' with him.  I was constantly having to censor myself and be hyper vigilant to not disappointed him.  This wasn't intimacy.  There was nothing safe about it.  It was a betrayal of my trust.  It was an addiction.

[hergestridge]

I thought I experienced intimacy, because I didn't know what that true intimacy was. I don't think I had experienced that, so I didn't expect it.

I thought it was intimacy that my wife didn't leave me and that she stayed with me no matter what. But actually my needs were not met because if I needed love or comfort I would postpone that request until she had a "good"/"loving" day, this in order to avoid rejection.  

That is the kind of imtimacy I grew up with and that is all I thought i would get.

When I realized you were supposed to ask for a little more (at least as much as you give) from a relationship the whole thing was doomed.

Taking the step from taking too little space to taking enough space - she couldn't help but seeing that as a way to punish her. The re-adjustment of the power balance that had to be done in our relationship, it was unacceptable to her.

[Arminius]

This is a really good question. Before meeting my exBPD I had been in 3 long term relationships, 4 years, 10 years and 7 years. In the first few months of meeting my exBPDgf I had feelings of closeness and intimacy I had NEVER felt in my life. I was totally swept off my feet and it made me believe that finally, this what what real love is all about. The feelings with her were way more intense than the feelings with anyone I had ever been with. I had never felt such a deep connection before, a whole new dimension.

Now with some distance I see that there was a lot of mirroring and there was a knight in shining armour/codependent person, me that just lapped up the intensity that a BPD can display. Remember, BPD's feel everything super intensively. They love harder and hate harder. The love she showered on me was totally intoxicating. It didn't hurt that she was 19 years younger than me. This is why the end is so hard and why it could be so tempting to go back, that "love" and yes it is love, is more powerful than any drug.

There is a pretty good chance that I will never again feel that level of unrestrained, intimacy but what I do hope I will find is something with a great deal more reality to it.

I've edited out one line of the above. Everything left could have been written by me, except our age gap was only 10 years.

Now? Now nothing would make me take her back. Nothing. Do I miss the fake her? Yes, of course, she was a perfect manifestation of my ideal. That's what they do!

Take solace in the fact that no one will ever enjoy the person you enjoyed. That persona only existed because of you.

They love intensely and they hate intensely. Now we must live intensely

[caughtnreleased]

1) High intensity is often mistaken for intimacy.

When you come from a family in which members showed little emotion or affection, and you meet someone around whom there are lots of feelings, you might perceive this as intimacy. At least there are feelings. But if the feelings are about high drama, betrayal, and passionate reconciliations, it is not intimacy. It is intensity. And it is both absorbing and addictive. The addiction is about high arousal and high risk.

That makes absolute sense to me. This is the family that I come from. Now to bring it back to my previous post - my healthy ex had a lot of strong emotions too. But they were positively and constructively expressed and properly contained. helped me as well as I tend to be quite reserved with my feelings.

Thanks so much for all the insight.  It's true, when we come from a family with little room for intimacy, then it's hard for us to actually understand what real intimacy looks and feels like.  For me it's so hard when someone says "a BPD is incapable of intimacy", and I automatically scratch my head and wonder, but what is intimacy then... .that felt so REAL.  How do I emotionally understand true intimacy?

Perhaps rather than stating that what we had with our BPD was or was not intimacy, I,m starting to think we could frame it as intimacy comes in a scale of 1-10.  Where 1 is really the most basic animalistic level of intimacy (sex?), and 10 is essentially the most evolved adult intimacy achievable to man!  Perhaps most healthy couples will be around 6 or 7, whereas BPDs might hover around 1 or 2, but even as I write this, I'm actually starting to question that.  I think about animals, like our cats.  They don't push/pull. They don't withhold affection. In fact a lot of them are able to feel that we are feeling sad, and come and sit and comfort us (the healthy ones at least . 

[fromheeltoheal]

Perhaps rather than stating that what we had with our BPD was or was not intimacy, I,m starting to think we could frame it as intimacy comes in a scale of 1-10.  Where 1 is really the most basic animalistic level of intimacy (sex?), and 10 is essentially the most evolved adult intimacy achievable to man!  Perhaps most healthy couples will be around 6 or 7, whereas BPDs might hover around 1 or 2, but even as I write this, I'm actually starting to question that.  I think about animals, like our cats.  They don't push/pull. They don't withhold affection. In fact a lot of them are able to feel that we are feeling sad, and come and sit and comfort us (the healthy ones at least . 

To me intimacy can be pretty straightforward: we allow ourselves to be emotionally vulnerable with someone, they empathize with us in whatever we're feeling and expressing, accept it for what it is, clearly want what's best for us and are making us a (or THE) priority, and then they reciprocate with emotional vulnerability.  And as that continues between two people it gets more comfortable, and that person becomes a full-time emotionally safe place to be, and vice versa.  And it feels great.

It's easy to tell if we're being truly emotionally vulnerable or not; we're either letting fly from our heart or we're not.  Pain comes from withholding love, and letting fly is freeing.

I didn't get much of that from my FOO, stoic emotional containment was the vibe, even though they did and do love me, and I certainly never got it from my ex, only the illusion of it to begin with, but when the curtain was pulled back everything was always about her, it had to be, she was in too much pain to think and feel beyond herself.  But I have felt that intimacy with people, quite a few people, and the answer is always the same: let fly from your heart and see what happens.  Some meet me there, most don't, and that's OK.  Oh, and my dog?  Never falters, always there.  Always.

[workinprogress]

I thought my wife and I were very intimate.

Now, looking back, I see that she was intimate with me in that she shared every detail of her life that she wanted me to know.

But, if I said the wrong thing or shared the wrong thing, I was censured and the silent treatment kicked in.

So, I think I was someone that she could talk to and say whatever she wanted, but it didn't work the other way at all.  In fact, it became very hard for me to share anything with her.

We had pretty animalistic sex, but, this may be odd for a man, I would have liked there to be a bit more emotion and intimacy to it.  Raw sex is great!  But, sometimes, I just wanted a little more.

Perhaps I just needed a safe place.  Someone to talk to, share things with, feel comfortable with, and have animalistic sex with!

[maric]

I have another question about intimacy/ intensity. Is it possible in a relationship with so much intensity to last? I mean, last on a happy way.

[Blimblam]

I have another question about intimacy/ intensity. Is it possible in a relationship with so much intensity to last? I mean, last on a happy way.

This is a very relative question and it depends on expectations