Borderline vs. Narcissitic Traits?

[RedDove]

I have a few questions regarding Narcissistic vs. Borderline Traits. Background: I was entangled with my exBPDbf for 4 years. I did not find out about his disorder until I confronted him about his cheating back in June. I also attempted to get closure (silly me). At the time, I had no idea what I was dealing with, but I do now. We went thru at least 3-4 recycles over the course of our 4 year encounter. He told me during our final meeting that he was unstable, Borderline, an alcoholic (well aware), AND addicted to pain killers from knee surgery. 

Below are a few of the behaviors I observed which I'm trying to get clarity around to understand if these are considered npd or BPD behaviors/traits:

#1. Our 1st summer together he went camping for 6 weeks. He's a teacher and has summer's off. I visited every weekend. When I asked him what he did during the week he said he read books and went for walks. I thought one of the traits of BPD was they couldn't stand to be alone?

#2. On our 4th or 5th date he said he had a surprise/gift for me. Well, not so much, turned out to be an 8 1/2 x 11 framed picture of himself! He wanted it on my bedside table. Got angry when I put it inside the bedside table whilst dusting. Is this more of a narcissistic trait? He also "always" wanted me to take pics of him and text them to him. He also posted a lot of pics of himself on Facebook. I know now he likely texted the pics I so nicely took to OW=new supply. He also posted them on FB to get attention, recycle former supply and to obtain new supply. Ugh! If I had only known 4 years ago what I know now!

#3. This one was really strange, at least until I began reading about BPD. He liked to lay down in my lap on the couch whilst watching t.v. and have his head and face stroked. He said that rubbing his head and face was a transcendence of intimacy to him. But, heres the strange part, he laid in my lap in a similar position you would see a mother holding an infant she was bottle feeding! Now this is a full grown man in his 50's, 5' 8" and 260 lbs! I'm petite, 5' 3" and tiny. I know this is definitely a BPD trait! 

Any insight/input on #1 and #2 would be appreciated. Thanks! RedDove

[Turkish]

Hi RedDove,

Though BPD traits are a group of behaviors, with certain core features being common among all (emotional dysregulation, fear of abandonment), out pwBPD are still individuals, and it's often hard to separate out the person from the disorder.

To address your first question, many pwBPD can behave as hermits. My uBPD, more of a waif, has gone into hermit modes in the past. One of her social media handles includes the word "hermit." When with me, yes, she could not stand to be alone. Sometimes, however, she would flee to be by herself to walk in her favorite park, and often would leave after an angry outburst directed towards me, especially with our kids present. I think shame triggered her, but being alone for a short period helped calm her emotions. It might be one of his coping or calming mechanisms. My BPD mom is a major hermit. She collects animals, junk and periodically, dysfunctional orbiters. My T said hoarding indicates fear of loss... .and that's the abandonment theme again.

Regarding the second, that does sound like a narcissistic trait, but also perhaps a reverse object constancy thing? If you have a picture of him with you, then he feels more connected?

My ex was also constantly posting pics of herself on FB. She rarely posted pics of our kids without her in them, too (I'm the opposite of that). She would also send me selfies by text, something like your second point. When she finally "broke" from me, it shifted to my replacement sending selfies of each other, and then constantly skyping from their phones.

We have an article on NPD here, maybe you can find something helpful there:

What is the relationship between BPD and narcissism (NPD)?

[Tausk]

#3. This one was really strange, at least until I began reading about BPD. He liked to lay down in my lap on the couch whilst watching t.v. and have his head and face stroked. He said that rubbing his head and face was a transcendence of intimacy to him. But, heres the strange part, he laid in my lap in a similar position you would see a mother holding an infant she was bottle feeding! Now this is a full grown man in his 50's, 5' 8" and 260 lbs! I'm petite, 5' 3" and tiny. I know this is definitely a BPD trait! 

Any insight/input on #1 and #2 would be appreciated. Thanks! RedDove

Why would you think this is exclusive to BPD.  A classic NPD boy is the one who is breast feed until he is in his teens and basically still view his world as a nipple.

Quick question that might help.  Was your ex a submissive in sex? 

[goldylamont]

a simple and crude distinction between BPD and npd i've read is that an npd has an overly high sense of self esteem whereas a BPD has an overly low sense of self esteem. underneath all of this there may be self hate, but in general a pwnpd tends to think they are better than others whereas a BPD would feel they are less.

what's confusing though is that from the stories shared here, i'd say that the majority of pwBPD exhibit narcissistic traits. it's often presented as "well maybe your pwBPD has some npd traits... .", but to me it seems like the in the majority of the case there are narcissistic traits. the exception being a pwBPD who is not narcissistic--this is just from observing stories here though.

for example, i know for sure that my ex suffered from a lot of self esteem issues. some social anxiety and also had fears. before i found out about BPD i looked up narcissism and it just didn't fit completely. however, at her worst, effectively i see her behavior as narcissistic. it wasn't that she didn't care about people or how they felt, it felt more like she relished in punishment and causing pain in her attempts for revenge.

what both npd and BPD share though is that they are both selfish disorders. in both disorders at the root, it's all about that person, all of the time. it may not seem like it when you initially meet them, but at the first sign that things aren't perfect you find out it's all about "me. me. me. my needs." being met. so i would say the majority of pwBPD show narcissism in this regard, even without an overly grandiose self esteem.

[Visitor]

#2. On our 4th or 5th date he said he had a surprise/gift for me. Well, not so much, turned out to be an 8 1/2 x 11 framed picture of himself! He wanted it on my bedside table.

hahahahah... now that is just funny!

[seeking balance]

Poster 2010, gave a really simple explanation:

He could be a Narcissist. He could be Borderline. The difference is that Narcissists fear that they dont exist and need constant proof of their existence. Borderlines exist, but in a state of fluctuating bondage.

More detailed here:

The Borderline/Narcissist attraction axis was quite real, and quite troubling in the way that all illogical BPD behavior and characteristics are.

Narcissists = are people who are "respect driven". (Respect is attention given to people of a higher status, or value in a society. Respect is antithetical to love by the very nature of it being unequal.)

Narcissists *do what they must* to get the attention to prove to themselves and to others that they exist and are worthy of “being.” Narcissists need attention from others (groups/partners/friends) *or* they have no use for them.

Narcissists have relationships with people who are typically just like them (other narcissists in collusion, who mirror back their false greatness) -OR- they rely on people who are uncomfortable being themselves (Small, painful egos) and who must reflect (mirror) back to the Narcissist in order to provide some sense of well *being* not only to the Narcissist- but also to themselves. i.e., Borderlines.

The Narcissist is a person who hides a painful self with a pleasurable ego. The Narcissist seeks to hide the pain of the real self behind a pretense of pleasure- and the quest for pleasure. It is an act of doing that creates being. It is also an act of doing that uses others as objects along the way.

Narcissists are Lone wolves. They do not attach to others for fear of annihilation. They have a fear of being subsumed and diluted, and therefore, afraid they do not exist.  They use people superficially to prove their worth.

Being “awesome and special are ways for the Narcissist to fend off that insecurity and cover up their real selves. Since pathological envy is at the root of Malignant Narcissism, Narcissists are always seeking out the next best thing to serve the FALSE self that hides the insecurity and pain.

And the “seeking” of the next best thing is -what *initially* attracts the Borderline to the Narcissist. The Borderline, -who has not developed their own pleasurable ego and not developed their own false self to please themselves- has only developed a false self that pleases and mirrors others- absolutely loves the fact that the narcissist has done the research on what’s next.

And to a Narcissist, this is a dream come true.  Attacking their image is akin to attacking anyone else with a knife. The narcissist will seek people with "dull knives". People with a painful ego have the dullest knives... .if they are trying to project an image. (Care about what people think about them)

Since self is what is used to help a person survive, the Borderline cannot survive alone, they must have a host. If they partner with someone who is a Narcissist, then they will be given a "life support system". In the "upside down" world of the Borderline, the narcissist is who they are.

Until it becomes the Narcissist's perception of the Borderline's attack on the Narcissist's false self- after the Borderline partner attempts to peel off the Narcissists "false self" mask and make it theirs. The Narcissists painful self is exposed, and the Borderline partner must be executed and then left to die on the side of the road.

But what happens when a Borderline mistakenly thinks of their partner as a Narcissist? And that partner isn’t a Narcissist and subsequently, doesn’t devalue and discard them?

The Borderline is a person who has a painful self and a painful ego. He seeks to hide this pain behind someone else’s pretense of pleasure.

Borderlines want so hard to see their own face that they demand we create one for them.

People who are "understanding driven" get drawn into this dilemma. These people are the opposite of the Narcissist- who is respect driven and who does not allow the personal sacrifice needed to help the borderline solve the mystery of “who they are.”

Knowledge seekers, passionate, compassionate, creative and highly questioning of life, these understanding people do not feel comfortable in large groups but are social on an individual basis and have closest friendships with people of the opposite gender (or people on a one to one basis)

The understanding partner then "imagines" what the other person (i.e., the Borderline) wants, and tries to uncover what they think the Borderline is hiding or missing. The understanding driven personality *understands* the need to be held, loved, understood and wants to share intimacy- but feels that with the Borderline= all they need is to guide, teach and show the way.

The false self that the Borderline mirrors, gets in the way and the partner tries to remove it. They try to find the chinks in the Borderline armor and peel them apart. The mystery becomes increasingly uncomfortable as the mystery unravels that the person they loved was themselves- what’s left is now the mystery that they must uncover- as to who really is the Borderline? We have no idea that the mystery exists because the Borderline is empty. They have no real self and have borrowed ours. We have been mirrored. There is nothing underneath.

Our partner starts to hurt us when we seek to remove the false self that they have mirrored. They use abuse to pull us under control. Our painful ego is easy to "pinch" because we fear abandonment.  We stop questioning them (trying to remove the armor) and turn the focus to questioning ourselves. What did we do to deserve this? During this time, they either pull us back under their control with blame and projection or seek another "understanding driven" person or a Narcissist to "host" them.  

[centralflarduh]

Is it common for BPDs to switch between N and B traits? I noticed that with my ex - one day she is hot ___ and doesn't need me or anyone else, the next she is garbage and can't possibly be loved, cared about or noticed.

[RedDove]

Turkish, thanks for the reply and information regarding your exBPD being a hermit. That part didn't make sense after everything I had read about BPD and fears of being alone. The article was interesting as well. Thanks!

Tausk, no I dont feel he really was submissive in the bedroom, he was more dominant in that (blushing here)   he always initiated (I'm submissive), he made sure my "needs" were met, he controlled and directed the movements, but think it was more out of control. When I once shared a fantasy that was more dominant though, he did not fulfill my request.

GoldyLamont, back about a year ago I searched online and thought he had npd, but he didn't fit a lot of the criteria, 4-5 of the traits. For BPD he fits 5-6 of the criteria. He's definitely selfish... .Me, Me, Me mentality... .we did the things he wanted to do, when he wanted to do them. But, he was arrogant at times and seemed to know how attractive he was and would ask me what I liked about him (low self esteem?) a lot in the beginning. I would start out with internal traits like smart, funny... .but he preferred to hear the external physical traits pertaining to his looks.

Visitor, yes   funny now, but in retrospect looking back now, it was the first red flag  . I remember thinking it was really wierd and strange to give a photo, an 8 1/2 x 11 photo to a woman he had just met! I also remember I didnt tell anyone about that strange gift. I think it had more to do with the reverse object constancy as Turkish described above.

I guess the bottom line is whether he has BPD with narcissistic traits, or npd really doesn't matter at this point. The real key to my recovery is focusing and learning about "me" the caretaker and understanding the issues from my past & childhood that drove me to allow this person into my life in the first place. Lots of inner work to do!

I ended it with him back in June when I discovered his lies and cheating with the OW. This was after a 4 year Rollercoaster ride. I went NC, blocked him on FB, email, etc. and I have not heard a peep from him since. Just one suspected walk by my house a few weeks ago. Which I now think may have been a new neighbor who looks a lot like him. My ex BPDbf lives 1/2 mile down the street from me.

Thank you all so much for your Input and responses!

Best, RedDove

[amigo]

I ponder the same about my exbf. I have come to the conclusion that he has both BPD and NPD traits and they exhibit at varying intensity at different times.

My ex at one point actually brought up narcissism and admitted that he was narcissistic, but felt that "it is no a disease, if it doesn't affect your life negatively". (in my humble opinion, his life is a mess). I asked if anything else in the DSM resonated with him, he claimed he read in it, and he said no. Cannot bring himself to admit BPD. I have hinted at it, but never used the exact words.

But he does definitely also have lots of BPD traits.  push - pull, desperate clinging and affirmations of endless love, little glimpses of admitting weakness and self-hatred.

Currently he is in full on NPD mode, as far as I am concerned. Checking in every few weeks to see if I am still available for supply (while most likely with the ex gf) Bait and switch: If I am friendly, he will turn cold and say he does not want to see me.

I am working on going full NC, right now, I am only LC, in that I don't contact him, but did answer his last text and phone call. I am curious to see what happens when I instate full NC. I fear an extinction burst. That would then be proof that he is BPD as much as NPD.

Hang in there Red Dove, I share your pain and confusion.