Most Narcissists are also Borderline

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I've always thought my ex was Borderline, she has all the traits, but she's definitely more complex than that, I've always seen Narcissistic and Psychopathic traits in her aswell. I listen to Spartan Life Coach quite a lot and he reckons that most Narcissists are also Borderline, most PD's are comorbid with at least one other, if not more:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UM_58j_pdA

I think there's a high probability that most of our exes are a mix, I think mine was a lot of different things, I find it much more appropriate and healthy now to just think of her as a Psychopath. I guess variety is the spice of life.

[bungenstein]

I've always thought my ex was Borderline, she has all the traits, but she's definitely more complex than that, I've always seen Narcissistic and Psychopathic traits in her aswell. I listen to Spartan Life Coach quite a lot and he reckons that most Narcissists are also Borderline, most PD's are comorbid with at least one other, if not more:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UM_58j_pdA

I think there's a high probability that most of our exes are a mix, I think mine was a lot of different things, I find it much more appropriate and healthy now to just think of her as a Psychopath. I guess variety is the spice of life.

[Recooperating]

I listen to the spartan life coach a lot too, love his videos.

Mine is also BPD/NPD. I've read somewhere that 47% of BPD males are comorbid with NPD.

[Raybo48]

I agree, and saw plenty of NPD traits in my ex.  I also saw some histrionic traits in her as well, but I'm no expert on HPD.   Either way there are some serious personality disorders going on with her on a daily basis.

[peiper]

Mine was most definitely BPD, NPD and HPD.

[bungenstein]

Mine was most definitely BPD, NPD and HPD.

So as Thomas Sheridan believes, and I think its a much more healthy way of viewing them, is that they are all just psychopaths.

[Skip]

So as Thomas Sheridan believes, and I think its a much more healthy way of viewing them, is that they are all just psychopaths.

bungenstein,

I think you are at a crossroads in your healing.  You can choose to go down the path of "psychology" or you can choose to go down the path of "alien being, reptile, monster".  There are plenty of websites that will accommodate the latter.

The choice is "do we want to be more emotionally mature in the breakup and healing than we were in the relationship - or do we want to keep on doing what hasn't served us very well."

Life is choices and this is a big one.  Good mental health is hard.  We have to know when we are at the fork on the road.  We need to be ready to make the harder choice - the healthier choice.

I know, personally, as I look back at my relationship and at many relationships here, I see that we assign much too much of the relationship difficulties to pathologies.  The more we do that - the more difficult it is for us to sort the good from the bad going forward with other people - and the harder it is on us.  Many of us didn't understand or read our partners well.  That is not a healthy place to be.

Skip

[bungenstein]

So as Thomas Sheridan believes, and I think its a much more healthy way of viewing them, is that they are all just psychopaths.

bungenstein,

I think you are at a crossroads in your healing.  You can choose to go down the path of "psychology" or you can choose to go down the path of "alien being, reptile, monster".  There are plenty of websites that will accommodate the latter.

The choice is "do we want to be more emotionally mature in the breakup and healing than we were in the relationship - or do we want to keep on doing what hasn't served us very well."

Life is choices and this is a big one.  Good mental health is hard.  We have to know when we are at the fork on the road.  We need to be ready to make the harder choice - the healthier choice.

I know, personally, as I look back at my relationship and at many relationships here, I see that we assign much too much of the relationship difficulties to pathologies.  The more we do that - the more difficult it is for us to sort the good from the bad going forward with other people - and the harder it is on us.  Many of us didn't understand or read our partners well.  That is not a healthy place to be.

Skip

I do think I have looked at a lot of my issues that led me down this path, I learn more everyday, I also think I have learnt that my ex was not just BPD, she had all sorts, and for me looking at her as a psychopath is more accurate than BPD.

We didn't understand our partners well, but how could we? They are mentally ill, and I had no idea what I was dealing with.

[Pingo]

I know, personally, as I look back at my relationship and at many relationships here, I see that we assign much too much of the relationship difficulties to pathologies.  The more we do that - the more difficult it is for us to sort the good from the bad going forward with other people - and the harder it is on us.  Many of us didn't understand or read our partners well.  That is not a healthy place to be.

Skip

I would have to agree, I spent most of the 4 yrs of my r/s trying to figure out what was because of his brain injury and what was him just being an unpleasant human being (I didn't know about BPD so everything got blamed on the brain injury, his fall-back excuse for all unacceptable behaviour).  All that analysing kept me from seeing the plain truth: that I was being abused and THAT was unacceptable no matter what his reason.  It kept me distracted from looking in the mirror.

[Raybo48]

I too am drawn into the pathology of the relationship, so I see your point Skip.  I mean when  is it enough 'understanding'of my BPDxgf and at what cost to my own emotional growth? Everyone agrees that their BPDx is/was incredibly dysfunctional at best, but I think the harder part is admitting to myself that I was incredibly dysfunctional in participating in the dance. I just didn't wake up one morning 3 years in and realize what was going on, I knew very early on yet I stayed and allowed my emotional growth to stagnate and regress... .Much of that is on me.  I must own my part and slowly detach from her pathology as it really doesn't do me any good moving forward with my life.

[Blimblam]

So as Thomas Sheridan believes, and I think its a much more healthy way of viewing them, is that they are all just psychopaths.

bungenstein,

I think you are at a crossroads in your healing.  You can choose to go down the path of "psychology" or you can choose to go down the path of "alien being, reptile, monster".  There are plenty of websites that will accommodate the latter.

The choice is "do we want to be more emotionally mature in the breakup and healing than we were in the relationship - or do we want to keep on doing what hasn't served us very well."

Life is choices and this is a big one.  Good mental health is hard.  We have to know when we are at the fork on the road.  We need to be ready to make the harder choice - the healthier choice.

I know, personally, as I look back at my relationship and at many relationships here, I see that we assign much too much of the relationship difficulties to pathologies.  The more we do that - the more difficult it is for us to sort the good from the bad going forward with other people - and the harder it is on us.  Many of us didn't understand or read our partners well.  That is not a healthy place to be.

Skip

I do think I have looked at a lot of my issues that led me down this path, I learn more everyday, I also think I have learnt that my ex was not just BPD, she had all sorts, and for me looking at her as a psychopath is more accurate than BPD.

We didn't understand our partners well, but how could we? They are mentally ill, and I had no idea what I was dealing with.

This is just the thing. Each of our exs are individuals. This is why it is important to understand and recognize our own projections.  If one decides to just scapegoat the ex we don't really grow and mature as a person we just may or may not become more cautious.  Although I can almost guarantee if a "high functioning laid back borderline waif" came along they would slip under your radar because they wouldn't meet any of your red flags and act much differently than you  assume what a "psychopath" is. 

Also the conspiracy theory guys have just taken a narrow minded approach to jungs work picked out a few archytypes and ran to the hills with it.  If you gain a good understanding of jungs model of the psyche and look back through history and start recognizing patterns in symbols and mythologies. It gets extremely interesting.

[Turkish]

I know, personally, as I look back at my relationship and at many relationships here, I see that we assign much too much of the relationship difficulties to pathologies.  The more we do that - the more difficult it is for us to sort the good from the bad going forward with other people - and the harder it is on us.  Many of us didn't understand or read our partners well.  That is not a healthy place to be.

My therapist said something like this to me, "Let's not assign every little behavior to some undiagnosed mental illness," although he did agree that her behaviors were extremely immature, and her choices "foolish," in his words.

He helped me step back to see that my Rescuer traits ran amok, and that I made poor choices.

I just didn't wake up one morning 3 years in and realize what was going on, I knew very early on yet I stayed and allowed my emotional growth to stagnate and regress... .

Yes, I knew something was "off" from the first few months. Heck, she even warned me about her state of mind. She stated her red flags to me, and in a way dared me to rescue her. Still I persisted, thinking that I could make everything better (foolish and immature on my part). After 5 years, I realized that I had made a huge mistake, and I was tired of the r/s. No wonder she bolted. She felt my resentment.

[Skip]

We didn't understand our partners well, but how could we? They are mentally ill, and I had no idea what I was dealing with.

People with BPD are very easy to understand once you know what makes them tick.

Containing them or changing them is challenging - but we aren't burdened with that.  We only need to see them for who they are, what they value, what they fear, and how they cope.  And when we nderstand that puzzle piece, we get a good start on what the other puzzle piece looks like - us.



When we look at it like this... .



... .we generally conclude that we were just in the wrong place and the wrong time - and the world is full of invisible dangers.

[antelope]

People with BPD are very easy to understand once you know what makes them tick.

^^it's so crazy how at first (after breaking up), NOTHING makes sense... .now, EVERYTHING makes sense

[Waifed]

So as Thomas Sheridan believes, and I think its a much more healthy way of viewing them, is that they are all just psychopaths.

bungenstein,

I think you are at a crossroads in your healing.  You can choose to go down the path of "psychology" or you can choose to go down the path of "alien being, reptile, monster".  There are plenty of websites that will accommodate the latter.

The choice is "do we want to be more emotionally mature in the breakup and healing than we were in the relationship - or do we want to keep on doing what hasn't served us very well."

Life is choices and this is a big one.  Good mental health is hard.  We have to know when we are at the fork on the road.  We need to be ready to make the harder choice - the healthier choice.

I know, personally, as I look back at my relationship and at many relationships here, I see that we assign much too much of the relationship difficulties to pathologies.  The more we do that - the more difficult it is for us to sort the good from the bad going forward with other people - and the harder it is on us.  Many of us didn't understand or read our partners well.  That is not a healthy place to be.

Skip

But Skip these are not normal relationships. You would not have created a site like this if these were normal relationships. Most of us have had at least one bad relationship that was much easier to overcome than this. I was married previously for 14 years and I never experienced anything like the end of my 3 year relationship with my exBPD traited woman. Sure we all have some responsibility in allowing this to continue, but most of us were sucked in by a person that is personality disordered to some degree and knows how to play people's weaknesses. It's like a rookie competing against an experienced veteran. I knew my ex for 2 years prior to dating her. She did not rage and became subtly manipulative and controlling until she had me hooked. There were some red flags, but nothing glaring at all. Being codependent I was an easy target.  I was entranced in FOG and could not hardly think for myself. If I had known that people like this existed I would have been more cautious up front and looked for red flags like I do now. Thankfully I finally got out. It was literally life or death towards the end. That is not what a "normal or even somewhat dysfunctional" partner does to someone in a relationship.

I would never consider having any type of relationship with my ex and I am pretty certain based on her behavior with me and past relationships (looking back now with a clear mind)that she will never have a "normal" relationship.  If she finds an equally dysfunctional person who is ok living with a liar and chronic cheater maybe that will last for some time until she needs a new source of supply. I screwed up by trusting someone I thought and acted like they loved me and then turned the relationship upside down on me. Again, I take responsibility for my part and it has been a blessing because I hit rock bottom and worked on myself with a therapist and have a new outlook on life in general. This was a painful life lesson but at least there has been a silver lining.

[Deeno02]

Is there any info on NPD on this site? Id like to take a look...

[Blimblam]

Is there any info on NPD on this site? Id like to take a look...

Not really.  Member 2010 has some good posts explaining the differences between a npd and BPD.  Although member 2010 I think implies that they can not be comorbid.  The queen subtype of a BPD is considered to be a BPD/npd comorbidity. 

[Aussie JJ]

I know my ex very well, she is a person before she is a disnosis.  

Would I have stayed in the relationship if she had said "I HAVE BPD" at the start.  Yes, I would have.  Mine knows she has BPD, she is afraid of that knowledge.  I dont understand this myself, despite everything I have learnt I cant for the life of me understand it.  I know the theory however I cant put myself in the shoes that she walks around in day to day knowing she has a problem and just denying it.  

My part was just as toxic as hers, it takes two to tango and all of those other one liners that make us squeem.  We were both in volved in the relationship, we were both responsible for all that transpired, her for acting on thosew fears and me for enabling that behaviour and not trying earlier to understand.  

What do you want me to say?  She has some serious NPD traits and ASPD traits.  Predominantly its BPD.  Everything is driven by fear, not by ego or lack of emotins, its fear based.  That is pretty horrid, I dont understand it however wish I did earlier as inherantly she isnt a bad person.  

I choose to not be angry, confused yes, angry no.  

Your choice guys.  


AJJ.  

[Skip]

Is there any info on NPD on this site? Id like to take a look...

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=90388.0

[Deeno02]

Is there any info on NPD on this site? Id like to take a look...

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=90388.0

Thanks Skip. I do see some of those traits in my ex as well. Jeez

[antelope]

Is there any info on NPD on this site? Id like to take a look...

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=90388.0

Thanks Skip. I do see some of those traits in my ex as well. Jeez

this guy has some GREAT info on NPD, highly recommended!

www.samvak.tripod.com/

[Blimblam]

While not necessarily focussing on the label of the pathology I did it personally important to identify what my ex was acting out of when I was dealing with her. Which as ausie jj points out was fear.  The sort of key for me to understand how she can act so cruelly towards me is to understand the behaviors visually and how their personality is fragmented and compartmentalized to such an extent they literally can not access parts of their self except through projection and through cognitive dissonance they treat you accordingly to the role you slip into on the karpman drama triangle.  

For me it was the visual symbol in my exs eyes of fear, dread, and the far away eyes.  Remembering all that triggered a bunch of repressed memories in me.  I really think remembering the emotional link to the visual symbols is critical to really working through making sense of what happened.  

The thing is when we paint the ex black we are using the same behaviors a pwBPD does to avoid our own shadow and repressed painfull memories.  It is those memories that will set us free though.  

[antelope]

The thing is when we paint the ex black we are using the same behaviors a pwBPD does to avoid our own shadow and repressed painfull memories.  It is those memories that will set us free though.  

^^IMO, when we nons paint the ex black, it is a major step we take in detachment/no contact... .

staying in the dysfunctional relationship once the wheels fall off is what we nons do to 'avoid our own shadow and repressed memories'... .when we try to fix the unfixable is when we lose sight of ourselves and our issues b/c we are so consumed in assisting them in their chaos... .

[Caredverymuch]

So as Thomas Sheridan believes, and I think its a much more healthy way of viewing them, is that they are all just psychopaths.

bungenstein,

I think you are at a crossroads in your healing.  You can choose to go down the path of "psychology" or you can choose to go down the path of "alien being, reptile, monster".  There are plenty of websites that will accommodate the latter.

The choice is "do we want to be more emotionally mature in the breakup and healing than we were in the relationship - or do we want to keep on doing what hasn't served us very well."

Life is choices and this is a big one.  Good mental health is hard.  We have to know when we are at the fork on the road.  We need to be ready to make the harder choice - the healthier choice.

I know, personally, as I look back at my relationship and at many relationships here, I see that we assign much too much of the relationship difficulties to pathologies.  The more we do that - the more difficult it is for us to sort the good from the bad going forward with other people - and the harder it is on us.  Many of us didn't understand or read our partners well.  That is not a healthy place to be.

Skip

But Skip these are not normal relationships. You would not have created a site like this if these were normal relationships. Most of us have had at least one bad relationship that was much easier to overcome than this. I was married previously for 14 years and I never experienced anything like the end of my 3 year relationship with my exBPD traited woman. Sure we all have some responsibility in allowing this to continue, but most of us were sucked in by a person that is personality disordered to some degree and knows how to play people's weaknesses. It's like a rookie competing against an experienced veteran. I knew my ex for 2 years prior to dating her. She did not rage and became subtly manipulative and controlling until she had me hooked. There were some red flags, but nothing glaring at all. Being codependent I was an easy target.  I was entranced in FOG and could not hardly think for myself. If I had known that people like this existed I would have been more cautious up front and looked for red flags like I do now. Thankfully I finally got out. It was literally life or death towards the end. That is not what a "normal or even somewhat dysfunctional" partner does to someone in a relationship.

I would never consider having any type of relationship with my ex and I am pretty certain based on her behavior with me and past relationships (looking back now with a clear mind)that she will never have a "normal" relationship.  If she finds an equally dysfunctional person who is ok living with a liar and chronic cheater maybe that will last for some time until she needs a new source of supply. I screwed up by trusting someone I thought and acted like they loved me and then turned the relationship upside down on me. Again, I take responsibility for my part and it has been a blessing because I hit rock bottom and worked on myself with a therapist and have a new outlook on life in general. This was a painful life lesson but at least there has been a silver lining.

This is all very true.  Especially for members on this board. We really weren't given a chance to try to understand the disorder, rather, having had no knowledge of it and being ambushed and deeply confused while in the r/s.

Although I completely agree with Skip, whats difficult for many, including myself, is to trust again. I understand the disorder, I understand my codependency and rescuing traits, and I understand how both my ex and myself were drawn to each other as such.  Im fairly certain I've applied the necessary lesson of this experience more so to me by now

Whats truly difficult is as you state Waifed.  I knew my ex as a friend for years before the r/s began. I grew in friendship and felt immense trust as such once we became r/s partners. And, Im not throwing darts here, but my ex really did capitalize on that trust and really worked hard to gain my full trust in being fully open and in his words " fully safe" growing in that deeper connection.  This wasn't a rapid love bombing red flag raising situation w a true stranger.  It really was something that evolved.

I think thats the part of this experience that hurts my heart and soul the most.  Trusting a friend.  Loving a friend.  Growing together in so much. Then losing a very real person whom  I gave full trust of something very important:  My essence.

These r/s really are quite unique which is why this site is so valued. I've likely met many BPDs before and moving forward from this experience, can easily identify those traits in others.  As well as seeing how easily I might have been drawn to that type of person had I not gone deep into my self inventory over the last year to identify my own codependent roots.

Im really not quite sure where I could have pulled back during my r/s w my ex BPD. It felt very natural and to me, very genuine, as we grew together in a place of love.    We talked about much as our r/s evolved, most especially how important respect and trust are.  It seems once all " that" was established and we truly deepened together, the ambush began.  Out of nowhere.  Like nothing I had ever imagined, could have predicted, or could have changed at that time.  Although I really tried to " understand" my ex, perhaps even more so by then. It just was a rug being pulled out from under me. And he vanished.

I appreciate others perspective in response.  I struggle with this aspect of my experience.

[Blimblam]

The thing is when we paint the ex black we are using the same behaviors a pwBPD does to avoid our own shadow and repressed painfull memories.  It is those memories that will set us free though.  

^^IMO, when we nons paint the ex black, it is a major step we take in detachment/no contact... .

staying in the dysfunctional relationship once the wheels fall off is what we nons do to 'avoid our own shadow and repressed memories'... .when we try to fix the unfixable is when we lose sight of ourselves and our issues b/c we are so consumed in assisting them in their chaos... .

Yeah I feel you.  The anger is an important part of the grieving process and feelings of hatred.  I experienced that and can relate to it. The thing is it is easy to get stuck in that sort of black and white thinking. It doesn't make us bad for feeling anger or hatred. I have found it critical to recognize those behaviors in myself to understand my ex and to actually heal.  It is scary and confusing not to mention painfull.  

I have personally found by painting my first ex black I have held onto attachments to her in repressed memories for over a decade.  So while I moved on and even became indifferent to her I was still attached by those repressed memories that are associated with that ex.  Needing to deal with that probably led me to my most recent BPD ex.  Those repressed memories don't just go away they stay their untill confronted which can be decades or a lifetime.

Like skip illustrated with the images it is sort of a critical fork in the road to dealing with our issues and solving the puzzle or leaving a monster in our own psyche to haunt us. The latter is what I feel leads us into codependent relationships with pwpds in the first place.  So even if we learn red flags and rationally learn to avoid pwBPD. I still think we will be attracted to them because we have unresolved issues. 

[Blimblam]

Burgenstein,

I wanted to point something out though. I have listened to quite a bit of Thomas sheridans speaches. He makes a lot of good points and he borrows from a lot of good works in insightful ways. But fundamentally his premise is somewhat flawed, and it's quite ironic.  Because he demonizes the the ones who use overt and covert manipulation against the population which feeds the fear of the unknown. 

I personally don't find just logically remembering behaviors satisfying my desire to understand. What it is we are trying to understand is all the emotions we have repressed in the unconcious mind.  The unconcious mind is a world of urges emotions and archtypical symbols.  This is where Carl Jung comes into play.  Really only his general concepts of the psyche and how it is constructed need be understood. 

Most of the symbols are present everywhere but they trace back to the constellations and mythology and persist throughout history. The symbols are everywhere in logos and marketing. They are tapping into our unconcious mind to get us to buy crap. 

The most powerfull symbol is the human eye "the window to the soul".  By feeling my emotions just feeling the pain in my chest and remembering my exs eyes and crying a sort of door can be opened and from their the symbols and archetypes start to reveal themselves.  They already exist in our unconcious mind because we have been surrounded by these symbols our entire life.  It is really a personal journey. There are a few guys in the conspiracy theory movement that are really into that but in my opinion they have missed the point entirely because they focused on understaning these things through their mind and paranoia. Carl jungs work is all about the unconcious mind and symbols.

[Pingo]

Wow such good insights everyone, this is a great thread!

The thing is when we paint the ex black we are using the same behaviors a pwBPD does to avoid our own shadow and repressed painfull memories.  It is those memories that will set us free though. 

^^IMO, when we nons paint the ex black, it is a major step we take in detachment/no contact... .

I agree, we are all at different stages in our healing, some are really in the middle of this and I think it's okay, it really does help with the detachment.  It's when we get stuck here and can't step away and be objective that we run into problems.  Grief is cyclical and sometimes we revisit these different stages many times.  I know I do.

I know my ex very well, she is a person before she is a disnosis. 

Would I have stayed in the relationship if she had said "I HAVE BPD" at the start.  Yes, I would have.  Mine knows she has BPD, she is afraid of that knowledge.  I dont understand this myself, despite everything I have learnt I cant for the life of me understand it.  I know the theory however I cant put myself in the shoes that she walks around in day to day knowing she has a problem and just denying it. 

My part was just as toxic as hers, it takes two to tango and all of those other one liners that make us squeem.  We were both in volved in the relationship, we were both responsible for all that transpired, her for acting on thosew fears and me for enabling that behaviour and not trying earlier to understand. 

What do you want me to say?  She has some serious NPD traits and ASPD traits.  Predominantly its BPD.  Everything is driven by fear, not by ego or lack of emotins, its fear based.  That is pretty horrid, I dont understand it however wish I did earlier as inherantly she isnt a bad person. 

I choose to not be angry, confused yes, angry no. 

Your choice guys.   


AJJ. 

AJJ, I feel similar now, I think for my ex everything is driven by fear.  And it is horrid.  I think that is why I had such a hard time letting go.  I wanted to be the one who he could feel safe with.  And I couldn't.  There was a sense of failure and guilt.  There still is.  I think that's why I still cycle into the anger phase from time to time, to remember that the abuse I experienced was abuse, no matter his reasoning for abuse.  This keeps me objective.