"Romantic" holidays...

[jedimaster]

I'll tell you up front not asking for any help here, just venting.  But comments are fine... .

So this coming week has always been my uBPDw's big week.  Valentine's on the 14th, her birthday on the 16th, and our anniversary on the 20th.  Some years have been extremely difficult while others have been pretty successful.  So this year she asked if my family's cabin might be available, as she was thinking of going away by herself for the weekend (14th-16th).  OK... .

In the meantime, while waiting for me to check on the cabin, she gets dysregulated Saturday because I am running errands instead of waiting by the door when she comes home with groceries.  That evening she proceeds to tell me how I should arrange my schedule to be at home during the two hour window when she usually comes in from shopping and carrying her mother to town.  Every Saturday.  I told her there was no way I could commit to such a thing but if she'd text or call me I'd try to meet her at home if I was out and if I could.  That of course wasn't acceptable, as she was "too busy" when shopping to call or text me.   

So this morning when I told her the cabin was still winterized and wouldn't be available, she said, "Oh it doesn't matter anyway, I'm just going ahead with work and my usual things.  That way you will have plenty of time to do all the things you need to do this weekend."

So because I won't give her the middle of my day every single Saturday, I'm obviously too busy to spend any time with her for Valentine's, birthday, etc.   

I didn't bother insisting, just told her I'd enjoy going out to dinner at some point if she has the time, and left it at that.  I have her a gift--a heart monitor strap for her running/athletic watch.  Real romantic.  I used to be good at buying romantic gifts, back when I was under the illusion she cared.  Been hurt too many times to go there any more.  One year she went through every single Christmas gift from me and told me what was wrong with each one, individually.

But I have her a gift in the making.  I finished my proposed divorce settlement offer today and have an appointment with my lawyer next week.  It won't be ready in time for the holidays but by March she should have her present.  I've had enough trying to please someone who can't/won't be satisfied.

[jedimaster]

She is in a very weird mood and I don't know why (do we ever?).  My mom sent her a birthday gift, some nice jewelry.  I said, "You got a gift from your mother-in-law."  She said, "Yep," took it out of the box, hung it in her jewelry case, and put the box away.  Not another word.  I've been getting one-word responses all day.  Probably brooding over something related to the multiple holidays, but I don't know. 

I have her a nice Valentine's gift bag--she has multiple "allergies" according to her, so everything in it is gluten-free, nut-free, soy-free, and dairy-free.  As thoughtful as I could make it short of having it all engraved.  Can't wait till tomorrow to see how it's received or if it's even acknowledged.

I. Don't. Care.  Not anymore.

I'm not asking her what's wrong or acknowledging that I even notice.  I'm not going to validate this kind of behavior by responding to it.  I have no idea how Valentine's Day, her birthday, or our anniversary will turn out, but I'm past caring.  I have an appointment Wednesday to get my attorney to help draft a settlement proposal for an uncontested divorce.  I'm trying to wait until after March 1, but she's making it harder by the day.  I'm going through the motions this week because my son and I have a race together on the 1st, and I'm trying not to throw the house into chaos before then.  Hopefully she'll be civilized enough to come watch her child cross the finish line for his first 8K run.  Once that is over I am so done.

[downwhim]

So sorry what your going through Jedimaster. I have been divorced 8 years now. It took me many years to get up the guts to leave. It was hard making the move and hard afterwards but so many years have gone by now I just don't care about him. We have three sons together all raised. My ex BPD fiancé was a harder b/u than a 22 year marriage to a NPD.

You sound like you are at the burnout stage and that you are just going through the motions. I am sure it is a trigger for her have all those holidays so close together and she gets disordered and anxious. She probably then projects that all on to you either through the silent treatment (one line, short answers) or she will just split. Mine did that one Valentines when I rented a cabin at the mountains. He picked a fight and refused to go... .I took my son and his friend. It was super lonely... .

What is your game plan? Are you and your son moving out or are you trying to keep the house? A lot to figure out.  

[workinprogress]

So sorry what your going through Jedimaster. I have been divorced 8 years now. It took me many years to get up the guts to leave. It was hard making the move and hard afterwards but so many years have gone by now I just don't care about him. We have three sons together all raised. My ex BPD fiancé was a harder b/u than a 22 year marriage to a NPD.

You sound like you are at the burnout stage and that you are just going through the motions. I am sure it is a trigger for her have all those holidays so close together and she gets disordered and anxious. She probably then projects that all on to you either through the silent treatment (one line, short answers) or she will just split. Mine did that one Valentines when I rented a cabin at the mountains. He picked a fight and refused to go... .I took my son and his friend. It was super lonely... .

What is your game plan? Are you and your son moving out or are you trying to keep the house? A lot to figure out.  

All romantic holidays are lonely with them.  Even wedding anniversaries.

I recall telling my wife for many years that all I wanted for my b-day, V-day... .and so on was a card.  I never got one.

I asked her to go out to dinner with me and so forth, it never happened.

So, tonight we went to a Valentine's Dance/Dinner together with a couple.  She wanted to go because her friend was "fun."  On the way there she starts complaining about her friend and how she can't keep her schedule.  She was running behind or something.

Well, while we were there her friend and her took all of these pics for facebook.  She only took one facebook pic with me over the last 7 years or so.  But, it doesn't bother me anymore.

On the way home, I calmly told her how for years I got no affection from her.  How we only had sex 2 to 4 times a year. 

I told her how I was told "things change get over it." 

She was silent.  I told her that I wasn't trying to be a dick, I was just telling her things from my perspective.  Once I gave her the house and the kids I meant nothing.

She started commenting on my affair, I told her things changed in our marriage ten years before the affair.

I told her that I loved her and that I would do anything for her.  She was silent.

That's a romantic holiday with BPD.

Maybe I shouldn't have brought up all of this stuff, but in a way, I had to.  I have to start speaking what is in my heart.  I can't keep burying everything to keep the peace.

Jedimaster, I have to say that I am glad for you.  My the force be with you.

[Grey Kitty]

[Almost caught myself posting this on the Staying Board where there is a Valentine's day topic... .then decided better of it! Thanks for giving me a better place]

A single friend posted a image of a card on FB Outside: "Roses are red, violets are blue" Inside: I'm bored of this poem, lets make out!" ... .and responding in the comments said "What do you mean, I'm supposed to give the card to somebody?"

I'm going to spend today taking care of myself. If I go out in the car, I'll buy myself flowers. Perhaps a lily.

I'm not chasing after my wife now. I hope she doesn't call today, as I won't answer the phone, and I hope she doesn't experience that specific rejection from me today. I really don't want to process our marriage/relationship with her right now, especially today.

My wife could probably work though and remember what we did for the last 25 Valentine's Days. I don't have that kind of memory; right now I remember something really sweet and creative she did for me on one of them, about a decade ago.  I also remember a lot of holidays where she made it clear to me that whatever I did was not good enough. Sigh. I think I celebrated Valentine's day with her twice after she stopped doing that. Last year was a fun day... .during one of the few bright weeks this time of year back then... .My wife was in some really dark depression last winter/spring.

[jedimaster]

[Almost caught myself posting this on the Staying Board where there is a Valentine's day topic... .then decided better of it! Thanks for giving me a better place]

A single friend posted a image of a card on FB Outside: "Roses are red, violets are blue" Inside: I'm bored of this poem, lets make out!" ... .and responding in the comments said "What do you mean, I'm supposed to give the card to somebody?"

I'm going to spend today taking care of myself. If I go out in the car, I'll buy myself flowers. Perhaps a lily.

I'm not chasing after my wife now. I hope she doesn't call today, as I won't answer the phone, and I hope she doesn't experience that specific rejection from me today. I really don't want to process our marriage/relationship with her right now, especially today.

My wife could probably work though and remember what we did for the last 25 Valentine's Days. I don't have that kind of memory; right now I remember something really sweet and creative she did for me on one of them, about a decade ago.  I also remember a lot of holidays where she made it clear to me that whatever I did was not good enough. Sigh. I think I celebrated Valentine's day with her twice after she stopped doing that. Last year was a fun day... .during one of the few bright weeks this time of year back then... .My wife was in some really dark depression last winter/spring.

Much the same with me.  I know there were good ones and not so good, but few if any really stand out either way.  But I'm sure she could recount most of them, or at least her version of what went on.

She made every effort yesterday to hardly acknowledge there was a holiday.  Did all her usual routine, went as quickly as possible from one thing or place to the next, barely spoke.  I got her a nice gift bag full of goodies, paying careful attention to her allergies real or imagined.  With the exception of one snack bar that contained nuts.  I am certain I picked it up by mistake as I was being extremely careful.  Of course she made certain to spend a good 15 minutes or so making sure I knew it was there and how simply handling it made her not feel well.      Fortunately she was in one of her phony-pleasant moods so she didn't accuse me of trying to kill her with candy. 

But mostly yesterday I looked after myself as well.  I did help my father do some work on the house, went for a run with my son, and ate practically everything in the gift basket she ordered and had delivered for me.  (I'll pay for that on the scales, but may as well rip the bandaid off all at once and get back on my diet.)  The interesting thing is that even though she claims a nut allergy and won't allow them in the house, the basket she sent me had a bag of roasted almonds.  I would have liked to have pointed out that at least I picked out hers by hand and tried to respect her food choices, as opposed to calling it in and having it delivered.  But I contented myself on knowing what happened and congratulated myself on not coming down to her level by pointing that out 

My birthday is next month and if things go well I'll be out of the house and working on starting my new life.  I think now would be a good time to start thinking about what I plan to do for myself that day   

Good to hear from you again GK.  Hope things are starting to come together for you.

[hope2727]

We had some good holidays and some brutal ones. I contributed to that I must admit. The worst one for me was a "surprise" New Years Eve holiday that put tremendous stress on me to find care for my elderly parent and put aside my studies to attend. Then once we arrived the first words out of his mouth when we got to our cabin was "I wish *** (his NPD best friend) was here." I almost walked out. HE went on and on about how much more fin it would be with his bromance friend there. It went on all weekend. What  joke. I know better now. I should have gotten up and left. HE was always triangulating me with other people including other women but something about being told that he'd rather be places with his buddy was just to much for me. He went on 2 holidays with this buddy over me. He went to events with this buddy over me. It was so hurtful. Now I have a bit of distance I see I was right to be hurt.

[Compassion14]

Jedimaster,

I am sorry for your pain but so glad for your inner strength. I know how difficult it is to extract yourself from these relationships but you sound sufficiently 'done' to really be 'done' and I wish you every strength and happiness in the weeks to come. You deserve it.

I too had an alternative 'gift' for Valentines - a court summons for my exBPD to pay the £18,000 he's effectively stolen from me. Not quite what he'd have had in mind, but, boy, does it feel right this end. :-)

I'm done, you're done - it's hard to be anything but 'done' when utterly sucked dry within these relationships.

Keep us posted and good luck. You are doing the right thing.

C14x

[jedimaster]

I saw your other post about the "gift" C14.  Congratulations.  I still have her birthday (tomorrow) and our anniversary (Friday) to go.  Birthday is covered, but not sure what the anniversary will entail.  I'd be glad to take her out for a nice dinner if she'll behave herself, but who knows.  Every day is a brand new world.  I'm meeting Wednesday with the lawyer to draft a settlement offer to hopefully start things rolling toward an uncontested divorce, but I literally have no idea how she will react when it all goes down.  She could fly into a rage, she could break down, or she could remain totally calm and businesslike and start insisting on ridiculous demands.  Or some combination of the above, or something I haven't thought of yet.  But I am finding as the days go by I care less and less.  All I want is for it to be over.  It's not that I don't care for her or about her, but my love is no longer blind.  Knowing that any feelings I have for her will never be reciprocated in a healthy way is allowing me to slowly pack those feelings away for good.  The mental image I get is that of an old vinyl record album that used to be an absolute favorite.  It might still sit on a shelf somewhere and on rare occasions I might take it down for a few minutes and look at the cover.  Yet the music on it will never be played again, because there is no longer anything to play it with.

[Grey Kitty]

jedimaster, I know you are still a ways out about ending your marriage actively, so let me give you one suggestion (admittedly based on not knowing your wife):

Separate it into two conversations, instead of one conversation:

First, "I want to leave our marriage."

Second, "Lets negotiate terms for splitting."

Know your own bargaining position--what you are willing to give, and what you will fight for, etc. before you start... .

Her response to the first part will give you some idea where she is going on the second. And how she's looking at it / going about it could change what you want to say... .in order to get to the same sort of 'fair' bottom line you are willing to go to.

[Compassion14]

"Knowing that any feelings I have for her will never be reciprocated in a healthy way is allowing me to slowly pack those feelings away for good."

Spot on! Hold onto this. The feelings will NEVER come back in a healthy way - I have lived that - and, if your separation turns out to be anything like mine, you'll never see any hint of appreciation for anything you ever did - you'll be completed painted black - with the biggest permanent marker... .it's weird, and a bit spooky. Like you're living a totally different life - and your life with them never really happened.

Anyway, I wish you strength.

C14 x

[jedimaster]

jedimaster, I know you are still a ways out about ending your marriage actively, so let me give you one suggestion (admittedly based on not knowing your wife):

Separate it into two conversations, instead of one conversation:

First, "I want to leave our marriage."

Second, "Lets negotiate terms for splitting."

Know your own bargaining position--what you are willing to give, and what you will fight for, etc. before you start... .

Her response to the first part will give you some idea where she is going on the second. And how she's looking at it / going about it could change what you want to say... .in order to get to the same sort of 'fair' bottom line you are willing to go to.

Good advice.  I'm in the process of thinking through how I want to approach this and my thoughts are going somewhat along this line already. 

I'm trying to figure out if I can walk a bit of a tightrope.  Like many pwBPD she is prone to black-and-white, all-or-nothing thinking.  In our state you can negotiate an uncontested divorce completely out of court, get the final settlement drawn up, sign and notarize it, file it with the court for about $200, and you're done.  My lawyer is from a respected old firm, and he has quoted me a very reasonable figure to make sure the settlement is properly worded and take care of the filing details.  We don't have a huge amount of assets, but if we could manage this, we could each come out with a small nest egg after the house is sold and everything is paid off.  On the other hand, a drawn out court battle could exhaust everything and leave us both broke and trying to start over in middle age.

I'm hoping to try to frame the discussion in terms of those two options, in the hopes that she'll see a contested divorce as catastrophically expensive.  Of course in reality there are any number of variations between the best and worst cases, but I'm going to try not to bring those into the picture if at all possible.  In my list of details I'm taking to the attorney this week there are several areas with some wiggle room and some where I plan to stand firm.  The other extreme I want to avoid is to give the impression that everything in the settlement offer is on the table and that I'm willing to give up all kinds of ground to stay out of court.  My family has expressed their willingness to back me financially if necessary, so if she is determined to go with the nuclear option, I have resources she doesn't.  But I have no wish to push her into poverty.  I really just want to get my life under my own control with as little disruption as possible.  I value peace over money, but not peace at any cost.

[Perfidy]

It sounds like the body hasn't hit the floor yet. Tough times to be sure. Transitions become easy when impermance is put in it's proper place as normalcy. It's our nature. Change. It's hard. I know.

[jedimaster]

Well today is her birthday.  Normally she makes a HUGE deal of her birthday.  One year she celebrated for a week.  This year she's so off-kilter I'm not sure what she's up to, but she's been trying to ignore the fact she has any holidays.  This morning she basically mocked the gift I gave her.  I figured as much, so I didn't even acknowledge.  I acted like her snark might have been profuse heartfelt thanks   

I started keeping a private journal when I made the decision to go ahead with the divorce.  This is what I just wrote concerning dinner:

-------------------

I went ahead and made my traditional cheesecake for her birthday like I have for years, only I used a much lighter recipe.  First, when I told her I had made one, she groaned and said, "I'm trying to be careful what I eat, after not feeling well the other night... .but it's the thought that counts."  Then after her meal she said "What all is in the cheesecake?"  So I said, "Fat free cream cheese, eggs, stevia sweetener, vanilla, and a dash of lemon juice."  So she got a piece, and then said, "Boy, I can sure taste the lemon!  That's tart!"  (less than a teaspoon across two cheesecakes).  I said, "Well all the cheesecake recipes we've used always have a dash of lemon juice."  "Well you must not have used as much with those."  I just shook my head, and she said, "I wasn't criticizing your cooking... .poor thing... .it'll be OK... ."

--------------------- 

I'm just counting the days... .

[jedimaster]

She just got back from the gym, declared that her workout had earned her some more cheesecake, and scarfed down another piece!         

I guess the lemon must not have been too bad after all!       

[jedimaster]

Saw the lawyer today, we went over my notes and laid out the framework for a settlement offer.  He didn't see any red flags in anything I suggested.  A few things he suggested to leave out as other language would cover them and we don't want to give her too many places where she might try to nitpick.  Other areas he had better wording than I did (as one would hope for the money he's being paid!)  Over all he felt like we covered things well and I was pleased with his ideas.

He asked me about presentation, which was something I had already considered.  Did I want a more informal letter-type offer, or something all drawn up on the firm's letterhead?  He was concerned about whether that might trigger an angry reaction.

I told him dress the thing up with every legal doodad he felt like using--the firm's letterhead, those blue document covers, whatever he wanted.  I wanted her to know I was dead serious, that this was not something I had drawn up with some home legal software, and I was ready to go all the way with this.  She's threatened to leave or get a divorce more times than I can count, and I personally don't think she's ever actually talked to a lawyer in spite of her hints and comments.  I want her to see what it looks like when things get real.   

He said he'd have me a draft ready for review first of the week.  He offered to mail it to her, but I said I wanted to do this myself. 

I spent the rest of the morning checking out housing options.  My parents have a home site with water, sewer, and electric ready.  Found a small repossessed mobile home just the right size and price range.  Going to check out a couple more options but if all goes well I may be out the door and in a place very quickly. 

I realize everyone's situation is different, but for years I had let myself be convinced this was just not possible.  I've read dozens of the horror stories on here and have also read the "Splitting" book, and I know the mother of all battles may yet be ahead of me.  But it wasn't until I decided to at least do the research and to see for myself what was involved in getting out that I realized it really was doable.  I wouldn't say this over on the staying board, but if someone is on this board but still feels trapped, do the homework with an open mind rather than allowing your inner voice (or your SO) to tell you it's hopeless.  It may be hard, but hard isn't the same as impossible.

[Grey Kitty]

First off, I find it rather ironic that you ended up discussing your divorce settlement plans on a topic about romantic holidays!

Second... .the question of how to present it... .I'm thinking that you would do well to give her ~24 hours between saying you want a divorce and presenting terms, if your strategy involves her agreeing to a fair non-litigated divorce.

Also wondering if you should ask the lawyer to prepare a "leave her high and dry" version of the agreement as well--not because you want to do that to her, but to have it as a starting bargaining position to propose in response to a highly entitled version she may be thinking of. (i.e. her living in this house, you making payments, and living in a shack somewhere)

Third... .I'm wondering if there are any self-defense precautions you want to take ahead of even discussing divorce, especially if you think your wife will attempt financial harm. One would be using assets to pay off debts. (No risk of her ending with the asset and you with the debt.) Another would be taking 50% of liquid assets.

Meanwhile... .how much more time do you have working on the house before it is "done" enough you could stage and sell it? Better be pretty quick--you are sounding way too ready to get out of there!

I wouldn't say this over on the staying board, but if someone is on this board but still feels trapped, do the homework with an open mind rather than allowing your inner voice (or your SO) to tell you it's hopeless.  It may be hard, but hard isn't the same as impossible.

You probably don't have much to post on staying... .and I'm finding less of my story as well... .but one thing I've firmly believed about the staying board is that you should be staying because you choose to keep working on it, not because you feel trapped. When I first realized I wasn't trapped in my marriage I was willing to make tougher changes that improved it!

[jedimaster]

Yes, well I do tend to ramble sometimes, and it never was that much about real romance anyway.  I'm considering the waiting period.  Haven't made up my mind yet.

I've considered the extreme version of the agreement.  Always hard to predict w/BPD, but my gut says that might well push her into an extreme response.  She might look at that and immediately say "No way; I'll see you in court."  The lawyer suspected as much too.  I'm trying to go with a carrot-and-stick approach.  There's some things in there that will hopefully make her say, "I can live with that," and some others I'm sure will be unacceptable.  I'm trying to focus the negotiations on areas where I am willing to negotiate, not where she might want to.

Exit strategy is pretty much laid out and I've taken steps to protect the assets, etc.  Not hiding anything, just making sure she can't clean out more than is hers.  I've transferred online bill paying and automatic deposits/drafts to an account in my name only but with her as payable-on-death beneficiary.  I can keep her share of the spare cash in our joint account so she can get it, without risking our living expenses.

The house is getting very close to the salable stage.  I've mentioned elsewhere that the builder is a family friend.  He is aware of the situation and is helping to move things along and stay within budget.  He is trustworthy enough that I could go ahead and advance him the rest of what I owed him to get it out of our bank accounts.  There's a few hundred dollars left for unexpected expenses and we're burning through it pretty quickly.

Except for one car and the home, we don't really have any major debt.  A few medical bills that still need paid out completely, but nothing large.  I'm offering to sell the home, let her keep the car, and pay off all debts and legal fees from the sale of the property.  If she behaves and keeps us out of court, she could end up with a paid-for car, no debts, and some cash to start over with.  The "high-and-dry" option is to let her drag us to court, in which case we end up selling the house anyway, dividing the assets according to a judge instead of our joint wishes, and if we're lucky end up with the change in our pockets after legal bills.  

That's the plan.

I guess I'll start a new thread for the next update  

[Grey Kitty]

I've considered the extreme version of the agreement.  Always hard to predict w/BPD, but my gut says that might well push her into an extreme response.  She might look at that and immediately say "No way; I'll see you in court."  The lawyer suspected as much too.  I'm trying to go with a carrot-and-stick approach.  There's some things in there that will hopefully make her say, "I can live with that," and some others I'm sure will be unacceptable.  I'm trying to focus the negotiations on areas where I am willing to negotiate, not where she might want to.

OK, let me be clear with the strategy I'm recommending for you:

1. Draft both agreements. Have them ready. Leave them at the office that day, so you can't hand her anything.

2. Tell her you want a divorce.

3. Try to keep your mouth shut and listen. Avoid talking about division of stuff, support, etc. (She might even suggest trying to work things out instead of talking about how to divide stuff up.)

4. The next day... .after you have heard where she is now... .decide which folder you want to bring home and show her.

... .yes, it is kindof a trick--getting her to show her hand in negotiations first will really help you. However you aren't doing it to screw her over. You are doing it 'cuz you know she is very capable of trying to screw you over, and you want to avoid that in the cleanest way possible.


There is a risk of giving her a little time to think before you make your proposal. That is the risk I'd weigh against showing up with the "fair" proposal.


Another risk is that she is likely to have uninformed expectations of her legal rights... .until she talks to a lawyer. Remember... .you had some yourself!