confronting bullies

[doubleAries]

A couple of days ago, I did sort of an odd thing. I was in a restaurant and saw this lady with her mother and her very young son (more than 1 year old, less than 2 years old) at the table next to me. The women are chatting, ignoring the boy, and he's trying to get their attention. Finally he spits on the table. His mother grabs him by the arm and gets in his face and tells him if he spits again she is going to flick him in the mouth--really hard. Her own mother is looking on with approval (obvious where she learned to act like this, right? Old saying: "he who strikes the first blow (or threatens to) confesses he has run out of ideas"

So I'm sitting there thinking about saying something--about overcoming my "emotional flashback" reaction of just freezing, and ignoring the social etiquette of freaking out when a fracas starts between adults but pretending not to notice when a child is being bullied by an adult (she keeps telling him this over and over while tears slip down his cheeks). And I'm glaring at her while I'm trying to think of what to say. Then she notices me glaring at her and she says, very aggressively,  "what are you looking at?" and I immediately, without even thinking, respond "maybe you better stick to bullying small children who can't defend themselves, because I'm an adult and I'll kick your @ss up around your shoulders." Which, believe me, wiped that sneer off her face instantly. She stared at me open mouthed and so did her mother and so did her son. I stared back until she looked away. The boy continued to look at me for a long time. I'm not sure what he thought. But he stopped crying.

Then I thought about it for the past 2 days. Could I have said this or that better? etc. But what was the "goal"? I think I DID accomplish my immediate goal. This wasn't an out and out child abuse case that I could call the police over--it was bullying ("hello, police? yes, this lady told her son she was going to flick him in the mouth really hard if he spit on the table again"--yeah, right), there wasn't really anything I could say right then to make her completely change her approach to child rearing or the family dynamic, and the child was too young to remember an incident of someone intervening. I didn't do it to "help" anyone... .I did it for myself. I rarely use the term "inner child" (just sounds corny to me), but for lack of a better phrase at the moment, that's who I did it for. No regrets.

We're humans. In spite of what society and television tells us, our emotional range is MUCH broader than "happy", and constant blissful happiness isn't really our life goal (making us defective when we can't accomplish it). We are taught to polarize our feelings and reject the "negative" ones while actively pursuing the "positive" ones. In reality, we aren't whole until we embrace ALL of our emotions. But embracing all of our emotions doesn't get us off the hook for responsibility/accountability for our behavioral reaction to our feelings. Being annoyed, irritated, or even angry doesn't give us license to commit violence, for example. 

This woman didn't commit violence (though I'd bet money she HAS been violent with her son), and neither did I. Both of us threatened it though. Her, as a way to control her son, and then aggressiveness towards me for the same purpose; and me for self defense against her attempt to bully me as well, and to delight my "inner child" who never had anyone stand up for her before. I'm not trying to "justify" my response to this woman. I'm just relating it. I'm not "happy" about it, nor do I feel any regret, guilt or shame about it (though I do feel some things about it). I'm satisfied that I said something, instead of just pretending not to notice.

[Pingo]

Bravo doubleAries! For standing up for a wee child and in the process standing up for YOUR inner child! That took a lot of guts! And you never know, perhaps it will give that lady something to think about (we can hope!).

Corny perhaps, but getting to know my 'inner child' has been life changing for me. It's all part of becoming whole. Recognising that this part is still in us, wanting attention, wanting a voice. You gave her a voice when you stood up to that lady.

We're humans. In spite of what society and television tells us, our emotional range is MUCH broader than "happy", and constant blissful happiness isn't really our life goal (making us defective when we can't accomplish it). We are taught to polarize our feelings and reject the "negative" ones while actively pursuing the "positive" ones. In reality, we aren't whole until we embrace ALL of our emotions. But embracing all of our emotions doesn't get us off the hook for responsibility/accountability for our behavioral reaction to our feelings. Being annoyed, irritated, or even angry doesn't give us license to commit violence, for example. 

So true! So many of us were told as children to keep our emotions stifled. In my house, that included the joyous feelings as well, not just the 'negative' ones. It's been a lifetime of trying to undo that, allow my emotions to exist and not be frightened of them. This process of allowing wholeness has also helped me validate other people's emotions without reacting so much to them or judging them. Especially in my children. Anger is a trigger for me and it has been difficult to tolerate in others so learning to allow my own anger without judgement has been vital and then I'm able to allow it in others. Still a work in progress for sure!

[doubleAries]

How predictable is this? The police came to see me this morning. The lady's mother called the police on me and they tracked me down via the restaurant because I paid with my debit card. Fortunately, I know the cop that came out, and I just told him what happened. He told me I was a hero.

However, I am not at all surprised to see that when abusive bullies get called on their crap, they immediately transform themselves into "victims". Those women will not contemplate that event and think "what did she mean about bullying small children who can't defend themselves?" They will not suddenly get a lightbulb over their heads and say "maybe it's rude to utterly ignore your small child to the point that they act out to get your attention--in fact, maybe when a child interrupts you, it's your job as the adult to explain why it is rude to interrupt, tell them you will give them attention when you are finished with what you are saying, and then DO THAT. And maybe--just maybe--when you treat the child with respect, so they can see a model of what respectful behavior is, IF that child were still to spit on the table, your disapproval alone would have a bigger impact than flicking them in the mouth really hard (because they respect you, having been taught how to respect). Hmmm... .in fact, maybe thumping someone in the mouth--especially a small child--teaches them shame, powerlessness, and fear instead of table manners and respect." No, that's not what's going to cross this jerks mind. Instead, predictably, it is that she can't tolerate her bullying tactics not working so she becomes a "victim" and wants the police to become an extension of her bullying (because now she's too afraid of me to do it herself).

Oh, I've watched this little movie play out over and over and over, up close and personal. I know EXACTLY how it works... .and THAT, friends and neighbors, is exactly why it is important to speak up. Not just because silence/ignoring bullying behavior gives it tacit approval, but because it chips away at your soul and makes you begin to believe--on an emotional level, not a rational one--that it's OK, and you need to protect the bully (from confrontation) instead of the actual victim (from injustice). This is EXACTLY the dynamic in my own family--I'm the "troublemaker" and scapegoat because I speak up. Kids who believe they are the cause of their own abuse (because the abuser tells them so) also believe they can avoid the abuse by validating the abusers rage. And kids who believe this grow up to continue to act it out.

Yes, Pingo, the same thing happened in my family. If anyone was to dare to walk around with a smile on their face, the witch would fly down and say something like "what are you so happy about? I'll wipe that smile right off your face!" So ALL emotions were to be stifled in order to (unsuccessfully) assuage the witches wrath. But then as adults, we are inundated with the message of the "feelings guru's" of don't worry, be happy. And if you're not, then buy some stuff to distract yourself from the "other feelings" of "not-happy". Sometimes sadness, or depression, or anger, or guilt are entirely appropriate! And those too shall pass, just like the happiness does!

[Pingo]

Wow! You are correct, quite predictable. Sad that there will likely not be any thought of accountability on her part as they are now the 'victims'. Glad the cop told you that you were a hero!

My mother's uncomfortable feelings around emotions were more subtle than yours. But the message was the same. Keep them tied down. Interesting, I am now the scapegoat of the family also! Because five years ago I called my parents on behaviour I could not and would not tolerate. We've been estranged ever since.

[Sunfl0wer]

I'd like to join Pingo in congratulating you!     

I'm so glad that that boy heard someone communicate clearly that her behavior was awful.

My own inner child feels proud and safer to hear what you did! (If that makes any sense)

There are moments in my life that I look back and still remember, and cherish. (For lack of a better word) I remember being 10 years old, with a broken leg on the examining table in the ER.  I will always remember the look that passed between the doctors/x ray tech (idk) eyes and mine.  We spoke volumes to each other without saying a word.  I was begging with my eyes to be saved!  I didn't speak one word and didn't cry one tear, just steadily gazed and pleaded for help with my eyes.  He stared back at me, without a word, he saw into my soul, I know we both felt that moment strongly.  Later on, back at home, I overheard my mom yelling about how she was questioned by the doctors, she was furious!  They wanted to know why I didn't cry, that it is unusual for a child to sustain such injuries without a peep, why I was brought via wheelchair vs stretcher, and other details that enraged her.  While I got sent home and I never did get saved that day, I will always keep dear to my heart the look of compassion and the knowledge that someone out there cared. That look we exchanged meant the world to me and helped validate my existence throughout the years. I knew, that even though I was unable to speak, that someone out there heard me loudly, and saw my pain.  My pain was made real in that moment.  It helped me understand that it was wrong.

I think you gave that boy a wonderful gift!

[vortex of confusion]

I want to congratulate you as well!

I am a firm believer that social change will only happen when we, as a society, begin treating children better. There is actually a book called "Parenting for Social Change". 

[eeks]

Hooray!  

Instead, predictably, it is that she can't tolerate her bullying tactics not working so she becomes a "victim" and wants the police to become an extension of her bullying (because now she's too afraid of me to do it herself).

I am starting to wonder if people who habitually engage in bullying behaviour become addicted to being able to dump their pain on others (and the feeling of relief, at least temporarily), and when circumstances or people threaten to pull that rug out from under them, they'll do anything including the "victim" routine to avoid having to face and feel their pain.

I am reading a book called Completely Connected by Rita Marie Johnson, it is not much new in terms of technique (contains elements of Nonviolent Communication and a technique called "coherence" from HeartMath) but the examples and anecdotes of application of the technique are useful.  In conflict situations, it involves discerning your own feelings and needs and connecting with your own empathy (via the heart) before you even address the other person.

First let me say that I am not sharing this as an example of what you should've done - your language might have been shocking but that may just have been the most effective thing you could have done in this situation, I think that the aforementioned bullies/pain relief addicts sometimes need that jolt to startle them out of their behaviour.  And the fact that you said it without thinking much suggests to me that it came from an authentic place in you.  I am only talking about some tangential issues your story has brought up in me, in my life, and it's more about how to effectively become aware of my own feelings and needs, than about the other person.

I was thinking about my own levels of empathy, and I think I am pretty good at knowing what others are feeling, but verbal aggression and character criticism just throw me right off.  I feel hurt and shame, and don't see any way of resolving it.  I realized this has to do with my mother's bizarre (and it is bizarre, she doesn't even really know why she did it) insistence when I was a teenager that I handle conflict with others her way.  (The example I'm going to give doesn't really have any aggression in it but I refer to it because it has implications for my awareness of my own feelings and needs)

For example, when I was a teenager my mom used to drive my grandmother 15 minutes to the nearest town that had a shopping mall, my sister and I would usually go along.  My grandma only wanted to go to the grocery store and the boring pharmacy (you know, the family owned one that has all the mobility devices and non-prescription reading glasses and no makeup or perfume or any other stuff of interest to teenage girls).  One day I told my grandmother I didn't want to go shopping with her.  She started crying.  My mother told me I had been rude and I had to apologize.  My issue here is about doing the right thing for the right reasons, vs. the right thing for the wrong reasons.  I had no friends, at least not loyal ones (I thought I had friends but one day they told me to stop following them around) and no social life in high school, and looking back it wasn't so much that I didn't want to go shopping with my grandmother, it was that I didn't want that to be my only opportunity to go to the mall, I wanted fun trips to the mall with friends.

My mother didn't empathize with me before or after forcing me to apologize, like somehow it didn't enter her head to say "wow, this kid is usually polite and respectful, if she is having this strong reaction something must be going on with her, and maybe I should find out what it is."  So that's what I meant by doing the right thing for the right reasons, I would have wanted to be empathized with, understanding why I reacted the way I did, honour my strong desire for a social life, then tell me that apologizing would be the right thing to do (context here being "how do you get your needs met while still respecting the other person's needs" but leaving it up to me.  

No, somehow this notion that even the tiniest bad seed of behaviour had to be immediately stopped because if it didn't it would grow and result in me "going down the wrong path in life".  (I got straight A's, didn't smoke or drink or do drugs, didn't swear, didn't call people names, didn't have a social life at all let alone stay out too late or run around with a bad crowd, didn't hang out with any boys let alone bad boys.  Clearly this is someone who needs to be tightly monitored for "going down the wrong path in life".)

For her it didn't matter how I actually felt, only that I go through the motions that other people expected.  This was her method, I guess, she said that for her when someone was aggressive towards her, that she gave them what they wanted (while feeling contempt and rebellion on the inside), "throw them a bone" to  gnaw on for a while and apparently they were more cooperative after that.  So there's a couple of problems here... .maybe that method worked for her and not me, I should have been allowed to choose my own response (maybe after she talks to me about values and priorities) and see how it goes instead of her demanding I do it her way, and I am honestly surprised her method worked because it requires some degree of self-awareness on the other person's part ("gee, I overreacted there, I thought she was trying to threaten me but she actually wasn't", vs. "cool, I can bully her and get what I want from her".

Wow, the more I think about it, she wasn't really parenting me, she was panickedly (oh come on spellcheck, it is too a word! ) managing her own anxieties.

This was really selling me short, because I had the capacity to both make effective requests to get my needs met, and to genuinely empathize with others, if someone had helped me articulate my own feelings and needs first.  

Thanks for sharing your story, doubleAries, it is touching to hear of someone advocating for a vulnerable child, and it has provoked much reflection and processing in me.

[Grey Kitty]

A couple days ago I was facebook chatting with a friend and he related this... .which was totally unrelated to this topic... .and fits soo perfectly.

There are a couple ol'pappy-ism that apply... .":)o the right thing. You will be punished for this, but do not let this deter you." and "Rather the company of a scoundrel doing the right thing, than 100 men, brave and true, that see the right thing to do, and do nothing.

You started out by nailing second one ('cept I wouldn't call you a scoundrel!) ... .then ran into the first one! 

How predictable is this? The police came to see me this morning. The lady's mother called the police on me and they tracked me down via the restaurant because I paid with my debit card. Fortunately, I know the cop that came out, and I just told him what happened. He told me I was a hero.

[doubleAries]

I happen to know the cop that contacted me over this pretty well (he used to own the print shop where I had all my business printing done). I called him back and asked him to report this woman to social services (I don't know who she is). He already did. Now she can be a victim of "the system" instead of a victim of me. YOWZA--just think of all the victim-hood she can indulge in now! Like a Birthday Bonanza!

This all connects deeply with some stuff I've been sorting out myself. For 20 some years (23? 24?) I have had no contact with my "mom". This came with an unspoken "rule" (of hers) that this meant I was exiled from the entire family. My brothers and I have had varying degrees of contact (and I'm pretty close with my older brother) but the "rule" has still been pretty strictly enforced. When my grandparents died, no one bothered to tell me until some time after the fact. I'm rarely invited to weddings, graduations, or anything else. When I am invited, there's usually a dysfunctional ulterior motive--for example, about 5 years ago I was invited to one of my younger brothers' daughters wedding. At the last minute, my older brother informed me that our mother would be there (an unusual appearance for her--she doesn't care about her grandchildren. The family is flung far and wide, but there's still a "gossip information loop" that I'm excluded from). As soon as everyone knew that I knew mommy dearest would be there, they all let me know in various ways that I should control myself and not cause a scene or be violent. In reality, I'm not the one to cause scenes or be violent--my mom is. But I am the scapegoat, after all, and we're all supposed to pretend that I am the cause of all problems, even though we know at the same time who the center of chaos really is.

Anyway, recently it occurred to me that maybe I should quit hiding from the witch and she could just start hiding from me. She was furious when I cut off contact with her many years ago (dang it! Now who is she supposed to project all her disdain, contempt, and rage onto?) but quickly understood she could use it to her advantage. She began her now long standing campaign to become (how predictable is this  ) THE VICTIM. Because that's what bullies do, right? She told anyone who would listen (but especially my older brother, because she knows we've always been pretty close and she loves to divide and conquer) that I was crazy, that she wanted to be "friends" with me and I wouldn't let her because I was just so mean. meanwhile, she never bothered to tell ME this, she never bothered to contact me at all--she just wanted everyone else to feel sorry for her. And the rest of the family did what we are all taught to do--see, but not see. Know, but not know. To see and understand the truth of the situation, but validate her projections and fantasies in order to appease her.

Even though this dynamic has always frustrated me, even as a kid, I still had my own way of going along with it. I abided by the "exile rule" not for her sake, but for my brothers sake--because I knew she'd demand that everyone choose sides, but I'd get the blame for forcing that decision. And I suppose I also feared that everyone else would choose her "side" just to appease her, and then I truly would be exiled. I didn't want anyone else dragged into the middle, and even though I never understood why there had to be "sides" to begin with, I have always understood that that's just the way it is--I, her own daughter--am her sworn enemy. I do of course understand now why this is--I have always been the kind of person to do what I did with the lady in the restaurant. I have always seen through her tactics and pointed them out one way or another. And that makes me very dangerous to her false reality. Her false reality can be validated further if she can get everyone else to choose her "side" as well.

Finally, I decided it's not my responsibility to protect everyone else from "choosing sides". That's their dilemma, not mine. All I had to do to return from "exile" was put up a facebook page (I never had one because I was hiding from the witch). In spite of her longstanding claim that she wanted to be "friends" with me even though I was a "bad seed" hateful little wench, as soon as my mom realized I had a FB page (she's had one for a long time--my brother showed it to me many times), she blocked me and started telling everyone else to block me too, or the very least, hide their friends list from me. Generally, everyone would have gone along with this, and even while they see the contradiction right in front of their eyes, they would glaze their eyes in order not to have to say "uh, hey--I thought you wanted to be friends with (doubleAries)?" (you see that's the kind of "confronting" I always did--not outright confrontations like with the lady in the restaurant, but just opening my mouth and saying "wait a minute--I thought you said... ." She started "informing" everyone else that I am severely mentally ill and they need to protect themselves from me, that in fact, maybe someone should initiate a psychiatric intervention against me! Seriously! NOTE: no one would initiate a psychiatric intervention (because then the gig would be up), but she knows that tactic will cement in peoples minds that I am CRAZY, and if I'M the one who is crazy, then she must be "normal".

But something unexpected happened. My aunt (mom's youngest sister--my mom is 15 years older than her so they didn't really grow up together) and I began FB chatting and she decided maybe I wasn't really crazy like my mom claimed all these years, and that in fact, maybe my mom was a manipulative liar, and gee--what about all those things she didn't "forget" but kind of stored away in the back of a dusty drawer--like for example when her and her now husband were engaged many years ago and her sister/my mom tried to seduce the fiancée at his job? Among other things... .So she started having her own awakening. She and I have chatted at length about the dysfunction of their mother/my grandmother, which in no way makes my mom's sadism clear or understandable (guess personal choices/decisions as well really do factor into BPD) and she was stunned to say aloud that she now finally understands her sister as a witch instead of just the pathetic (and mean) victim she presents herself as. She has gone to my brothers and asked them to tell her the truth about how we were treated as kids--which has caused a chain reaction of the stirrings of awakenings. Mom is know cutting everyone off on FB and calling them traitors. Why? because the bully likes to play the victim. This is like the starting gate persecutor role on the Karpman triangle (except quite a bit more extreme). Who knows where all this will go?

I posted this story about what happened in the restaurant on my FB page (made sure it's public) and various family members are using the story to tentatively speak up and/or make sly (yet obvious) references in the comments section. The witch is melting. And it hasn't come down to anyone having to "pick sides". It's just coming down to individual awakenings.

So it feels absolutely natural to speak up when the lady in the restaurant wants to thump her son in the mouth for trying to get her attention (which she was withholding).

[doubleAries]

Today is my birthday (the big 50!)

Here is one of my birthday gifts to myself--this is a quote from Pete Walker in his book "Complex PTSD"--I don't meet the criteria for PTSD in any form, or any other diagnosis, but I am still finding the book extremely helpful (hey--take what you need and leave the rest)! This is what Pete Walker told his "inner child", and when I read it, I unexpectedly burst into tears. Pete Walker is telling his inner child that he will go back in a time machine rescue operation (for himself) and do the following:

"I'll call 911. I'll call Child Protective Services on them. I will grab their arms and pin them behind their backs the second they try to strike you. I will muffle them with a gag so they can't scream at you or even mumble their criticisms. I'll put bags over their heads so they can't frown or glare at you. I'll send them to bed without dessert. I'll do anything you want me to do to protect you."

I'm crying just typing it. This really, really hits home for me.  :'(

[doubleAries]

I also want to clarify something I said above (the post before the Pete walker quote) about speaking up as a kid. I always wondered why I had the reputation in my family as the "defiant" big mouth confronter. I sure didn't feel like one!

When I would speak up, it wasn't out of some sense of justice or fairness (that came later, when I could afford it). It was out of walking on eggshells terror. I believed as a child what my mom said--that her rage was my fault. I began to walk on eggshells trying to prevent the rage (guess what? Right--it didn't work!). I listened very carefully to what she said or demanded, so I could try to follow the "letter of the law". When a contradiction then came along (as so many did) I was terrified--"which" letter of the law was the "right" one, the one that would prevent me from getting beaten black and blue and emotionally/verbally/psychologically shredded to ribbons? Hmmm... .better to clarify, right? So I would ask. I would say "wait... .I thought you said ______?" Being a double Aries, this stuff just tumbled out of my mouth in a blunt manner. I wasn't being confrontational. I was trying to clarify, so I could conform and do it right so I would be liked, maybe even loved.

But for my mother, this calling attention to her contradictions was not a moment for pause, not a chance for her to say "hmmm... .you're right--I DID say that; OK let me think about this". It was simply defiance and confrontation, deserving of shame, ridicule, and severe punishment (spare the rod, spoil the child). She needed the rest of the family to confirm/validate this for her too. And they did--because that was their own versions of "following the letter of the law" (didn't work for them either, but they stuck with it because they didn't have any better ideas about how they could "control" her rage, any more than I did).

Thanks all, for hearing me out. This allows me to work these things out into making adult sense instead of just child fear. Here's another quote--one from Christine Lawson, in "Understanding the Borderline Mother":

"Pain that is expressed, heard, and believed is not experienced in vain. Pain that is heard can then be tolerated and healed. The witch's children grow up. They learn to speak; they remember the truth. Some may remain silent forever, protecting themselves from the unendurable horror of telling the truth that no one believes. Those who speak find that very few people are prepared to hear what they have to say."

[Grey Kitty]

  Amazing work, what you just did. What a birthday gift for yourself.

I also want to clarify something I said above (the post before the Pete walker quote) about speaking up as a kid. I always wondered why I had the reputation in my family as the "defiant" big mouth confronter. I sure didn't feel like one!

When I would speak up, it wasn't out of some sense of justice or fairness (that came later, when I could afford it). It was out of walking on eggshells terror. I believed as a child what my mom said--that her rage was my fault. I began to walk on eggshells trying to prevent the rage (guess what? Right--it didn't work!). I listened very carefully to what she said or demanded, so I could try to follow the "letter of the law". When a contradiction then came along (as so many did) I was terrified--"which" letter of the law was the "right" one, the one that would prevent me from getting beaten black and blue and emotionally/verbally/psychologically shredded to ribbons? Hmmm... .better to clarify, right? So I would ask. I would say "wait... .I thought you said ______?" Being a double Aries, this stuff just tumbled out of my mouth in a blunt manner. I wasn't being confrontational. I was trying to clarify, so I could conform and do it right so I would be liked, maybe even loved.

But for my mother, this calling attention to her contradictions was not a moment for pause, not a chance for her to say "hmmm... .you're right--I DID say that; OK let me think about this". It was simply defiance and confrontation, deserving of shame, ridicule, and severe punishment (spare the rod, spoil the child).

What you did back then was completely reasonable. (I think you know this, but here's a reminder anyway!)

You were a child. You weren't supposed to have to learn this sort of tools.

However... .having worked so hard on such things here, I see what you did. You were JADEing all over the place... .and that is a hard habit for a healthy, sane, emotionally whole adult to get right! What I *now* know is that with your mom's BPD, the invalidation of Justifing/Arguing/Defending/Explaining triggers a bad reaction in her. So of course she took it out on you.

I don't know if understanding that now is of any use at all. The important things to understand are that you were doing the best you could with the tools you had... .and that your mom was being horribly abusive to a young DA. 

[doubleAries]

it makes a difference as far as seeing my own patterns so they can be understood and replaced by better ones. Can't repair what you can't see!

It's also interesting to understand my family dynamic better too. It's been a source of frustration for a long time.

And, even though I am NOT sorry, I will probably in the future change the way I confront bullies in public. Maybe leave off that last bit about "... .kick your @ss up around your shoulders"... .

[Sunfl0wer]

"I'll call 911. I'll call Child Protective Services on them. I will grab their arms and pin them behind their backs the second they try to strike you. I will muffle them with a gag so they can't scream at you or even mumble their criticisms. I'll put bags over their heads so they can't frown or glare at you. I'll send them to bed without dessert. I'll do anything you want me to do to protect you."

Thank you Aires,

Happy Birthday!

[Grey Kitty]

And, even though I am NOT sorry, I will probably in the future change the way I confront bullies in public. Maybe leave off that last bit about "... .kick your @ss up around your shoulders"... .

 It is always good to think about what you can do better "next time".

Two things are becoming clear to me about this situation. First, that your handling of it was excellent.

Second, that it has been deeply healing for you at a personal level-- three layers--First protecting that child. Second, the story is a catalyst that is changing and shifting things with your FOO and in how you relate to your FOO. And third, you are healing your own inner child who never received that kind of protection from others.

[doubleAries]

If there is something that has bothered me about the scene in the restaurant, it is that I still haven't been able to figure out what DO you say when you see this kind of thing going on? What if the lady HADN'T lashed out at me, opening the gate for a response?

I had a session with my T yesterday (because that's what old people do on their birthdays,  forget the "party"!) and asked him what he thought. He told me a story that cracked me up about when he was in his mid 20's and saw a lady in the grocery store shaking the crap out of a crying toddler and he ran his grocery cart into her and asked her "how does that feel?" Then we talked about bullying bullies, and that maybe the appropriate thing to say would be something like "you know, what you are doing is completely inappropriate and could even be construed as child abuse." If the person tries to bully you at that point, then say "OK, well, I'll just call the police right now" and do it.

We also talked about "social etiquette" that not only is bullying children in public ignored (tacit approval) but also encouraged at times. For some reason, we can't bring ourselves to say anything (oh, it would be rude!) when we see a child being bullied, but many people WILL say something when a kid is crying in public--comments about how the parents should "control that crying brat" or "make that crying brat shut up".

Granted, I have seen (and I'm sure we all have) plenty of children utilizing the obvious "I want my way right now" type of crying in public, having discerned that their parents are susceptible to social pressure about "crying brats" and they may get what they want just to shut them up.

[eeks]

If there is something that has bothered me about the scene in the restaurant, it is that I still haven't been able to figure out what DO you say when you see this kind of thing going on? What if the lady HADN'T lashed out at me, opening the gate for a response?

I had a session with my T yesterday (because that's what old people do on their birthdays,  forget the "party"!) and asked him what he thought. He told me a story that cracked me up about when he was in his mid 20's and saw a lady in the grocery store shaking the crap out of a crying toddler and he ran his grocery cart into her and asked her "how does that feel?" Then we talked about bullying bullies, and that maybe the appropriate thing to say would be something like "you know, what you are doing is completely inappropriate and could even be construed as child abuse." If the person tries to bully you at that point, then say "OK, well, I'll just call the police right now" and do it.

We also talked about "social etiquette" that not only is bullying children in public ignored (tacit approval) but also encouraged at times. For some reason, we can't bring ourselves to say anything (oh, it would be rude!) when we see a child being bullied, but many people WILL say something when a kid is crying in public--comments about how the parents should "control that crying brat" or "make that crying brat shut up".

Granted, I have seen (and I'm sure we all have) plenty of children utilizing the obvious "I want my way right now" type of crying in public, having discerned that their parents are susceptible to social pressure about "crying brats" and they may get what they want just to shut them up.

Good question, what can you say?  Given that these incidents we see in public are only one instance of a pattern that existed long before, what DO we say when we see it?  We feel emotional/moral convictions to act... .but we know that these people are using this strategy (abuse) as a defense against a whole bunch of stuff they don't want to face or feel, and if we say anything, we are perceived as pulling the rug out from under them, and we can expect hostile reactions, and while a stranger intervening like this may be a catalyst, because of the entrenched pattern there's not much a bystander can accomplish in one interaction.

I would not feel "rude" saying something, but I have seen incidents in public that bothered me before and I did not say anything because I was afraid of receiving verbal or maybe even physical abuse from the parent, because somewhere deep inside they know what they're doing is wrong but they feel powerless to change, and I've just embarrassed them in public.

Happy belated birthday  

[Blimblam]

Your story reminds me a bit of my cousin except she would never threaten her kids like that but she does get overwhelmed and leaves them to their own devices an the kids act out for attention and then the kids are labeled crazy.   What seems obvious to me is basically how in my culture at least we have two conflicting mentalities one which is to nature with attention and the second which is to provide.  The thing is in the past in hunter gatherer times people would just tie their kid to them and go about their daily lives and people only needed to work like 4 hours a day and thy did so as a group with the children. The way society is now if she is raising the child while working a job and the husband the same she might feel alienated and alone the kids constant needs bring the woman's own unaddressed needs to her attention.  So in my mind that interaction you witnessed is the byproduct of a much larger cultural problem.