Broke NC and can't tell no one

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I broke NC after 2 month - 4 month no physical contact - with my exbf who is a BPD with strong ND and psychotic episodes - we had a only 1, 5 year relationship with 4 or 5 recycles. His mud can basically change from one second to the other and we could go through all classical relationship stages analyzed for BPD in only one night if necessary  he has never been physically violent, but verbally abusive many times even in emails.

We are living on the same street (I have posted about this before) and therefor running into each other from time to time - the last time was over a month ago and he ran away from me.

There are only some rare friends that I have been telling about our recycles, since everyone was so worried about me after the first breakup, when I completely fall apart. I am known to be a very strong and independent person, that usually has her things together... .even though I know about myself that I attach to people very quickly. But this was different anyhow, as you can imagine.

I've seen a lot of progress within the past 4 month and have been working on myself very seriously, even felt attracted to other man - wouldn't yet be going for it - but still a good sign. I am not seeing the world through his eyes so much anymore and I have been less sick (physically) for the time of the NC.

But when ever I am getting into an instable, difficult situation I feel like contacting him. Which is highly interesting, since he gives exactly the opposite of stability. I forced myself not to contact him for some weeks and then had very bad and hurtful experience (I would normally by able to handle by myself and also have very good friends around me who are super supportive) and wrote him an email and even asked him to meet me for coffee somewhere outside.

He responded very quickly, agreed on meeting me and let me know that he was traveling and would write me once he is back. He didn't say when he will be back (which is very typical for him), he feels chased a lot and needs a lot of privacy. I didn't ask either and now I am waiting ... .On one side I am glad that he is not around and that I had time to think about what I did, on the other I am back in this weird loop that I created myself.

I haven't yet told anyone about my email, not even my T because I am ashamed and don't won't anyone to know that I don't have this under control.

I don't even have a clear question just feeling very isolated with this and scared of myself, of the option to recycle as well as the option to continuously be ghosted by him and failing with my attempt to give him less space in my life.

Maybe their are other people out their with similar experiences especially with isolating once self by not talking to other people... .

If yes, thank you for your replies!

[Susan Sunday]

I broke NC after 2 month - 4 month no physical contact - with my exbf who is a BPD with strong ND and psychotic episodes - we had a only 1, 5 year relationship with 4 or 5 recycles. His mud can basically change from one second to the other and we could go through all classical relationship stages analyzed for BPD in only one night if necessary  he has never been physically violent, but verbally abusive many times even in emails.

We are living on the same street (I have posted about this before) and therefor running into each other from time to time - the last time was over a month ago and he ran away from me.

There are only some rare friends that I have been telling about our recycles, since everyone was so worried about me after the first breakup, when I completely fall apart. I am known to be a very strong and independent person, that usually has her things together... .even though I know about myself that I attach to people very quickly. But this was different anyhow, as you can imagine.

I've seen a lot of progress within the past 4 month and have been working on myself very seriously, even felt attracted to other man - wouldn't yet be going for it - but still a good sign. I am not seeing the world through his eyes so much anymore and I have been less sick (physically) for the time of the NC.

But when ever I am getting into an instable, difficult situation I feel like contacting him. Which is highly interesting, since he gives exactly the opposite of stability. I forced myself not to contact him for some weeks and then had very bad and hurtful experience (I would normally by able to handle by myself and also have very good friends around me who are super supportive) and wrote him an email and even asked him to meet me for coffee somewhere outside.

He responded very quickly, agreed on meeting me and let me know that he was traveling and would write me once he is back. He didn't say when he will be back (which is very typical for him), he feels chased a lot and needs a lot of privacy. I didn't ask either and now I am waiting ... .On one side I am glad that he is not around and that I had time to think about what I did, on the other I am back in this weird loop that I created myself.

I haven't yet told anyone about my email, not even my T because I am ashamed and don't won't anyone to know that I don't have this under control.

I don't even have a clear question just feeling very isolated with this and scared of myself, of the option to recycle as well as the option to continuously be ghosted by him and failing with my attempt to give him less space in my life.

Maybe their are other people out their with similar experiences especially with isolating once self by not talking to other people... .

If yes, thank you for your replies!

[once removed]

hey susan 

ill avoid much direct advice. only to tell you that breaking nc is nothing to be ashamed of. as much as you might hear about nc on this board, the board itself does not directly encourage nc, even leans toward lc (limited contact). nc is one tool useful for some people in some situations.

i say "x amount of time is early" often and i mean it. i dont want to tell you what i was experiencing at five months. you also mentioned youre living on the same street? i see detachment as an exponentially greater challenge in your case. can i stress that enough? i cant imagine. i ran zero virtually zero chance of seeing my ex. even if you only see him occasionally, i would think the proximity alone could cause and maintain so many kinds of anxiety. it must be incredibly difficult to feel removed from him or the situation.

as far as reaching out to him, even knowing he cant give you what you need, i can relate, but your answer as to "why" is likely unique to you and something you have to answer, guided there or otherwise.

"I haven't yet told anyone about my email, not even my T because I am ashamed and don't won't anyone to know that I don't have this under control."

its good that youre seeing a therapist, but that therapist is perhaps the last person you should fear telling about this. friends may not always understand, but a good therapist can relate in a professional way without judgment.

if i have any direct advice or insight apart from that, i see it kind of like this: you feel stuck in a weird loop that you created yourself. on a major level, like i mentioned, its incredibly difficult to feel removed from the loop if you live on the same street as this person, though not impossible. when you feel stuck in the loop, there can be a tendency to perpetuate the loop. its nothing to be ashamed of, again, its natural, but if you see yourself in this, it can be freeing; a step to removing yourself from the loop.

[Susan Sunday]

once removed, Hi   

Thank you very much for this! Everything you are saying is very helpful for me and gives me more strength to approach my T.

I guess that I am particularly ashamed of breaking NC because he was the one that "initiated" it in the first place by writing me a very twisted, cynical and humiliating email, where he spoke about me in the third person and basically told me that everything coming from me was a burden for him. During the month before that, I have tried to stay lc - and wanted that very much - meaning: I understood that I won't have a functioning relationship with him that also satisfies my needs (what I hoped is of course a different story, but I kept it low and rationalized a lot) - but liked to know how he was doing - and for a while we kept that going and I have earned some trust during that time... .

I ended up not answering his last email and decided to never let him talk to me like this. It was one of these moments that you think you've finally understood that nothing in world can make this work - that he will never be responsive in an consistent and stable way that would also reflect my personality.

To make it short: I thing I am more disappointed by myself and went into the detaching process with a very high standard - that I am not even sure I want to keep it - since, as you so sensitively understood, it is such a difficult situation to have him live so close and it causes me almost constant anxieties (at the super, at the parking lot, on a walk)

For now, and after what you wrote me I am thinking that it might not even be a weak, but a strong decision to try and work on that situation in an proactive way and not from that passive not responding place that I have let him force me in. So, the loop mustn't be the contact itself - meaning: I could remove myself from it with and with no contact. And generally be more self-confident about trying out possible exits on a practical-level not only on the understanding-myself-level.

What were your tries? (and errors?)

[ZeusRLX]

I have gone through a similar process my first time.

I thought I loved her so much that there was no one else for me, just her. I didn't want to see anyone or think about anyone else.

But it goes away with time... .

Don't be too hard on yourself for wanting to contact him. However, what helped me avoid breaking NC was realizing that it was not about the other person or the relationship, it was about MY needs... .that apparently were a bit unrealistic/unhealthy since they have become attached to such an unhealthy person.

Once I realized that it wasn't any kind of great romance but a personality disorder I was enabling... .it was much easier to move on and forget. But that took years so don't beat yourself up, it's a process for all of us.

[Lucky Jim]

Once I realized that it wasn't any kind of great romance but a personality disorder I was enabling... .it was much easier to move on and forget.

Agree w/you, ZeusRLX.  I came to understand that it was pointless to keep trying to help someone who fundamentally did not want to be helped.  But it took me a long time to grasp that concept.

Hey Susan Sunday, Don't beat yourself up!  We all slip and slide backwards and forwards during detachment from a pwBPD.  It's normal.  I suggest you discuss w/your T, including your reluctance to discuss w/your T.  I'm sure your T has seen it before.   

LuckyJim

[once removed]

hey susan,

it does sound like given the circumstances, lc may be a better working solution, whether its temporary or permanent. if youre going to be living on the same street and seeing each other, whats the point in not giving your basic smile and nod? or initiating small talk if youre inclined. it sounds like you have low expectations, which is wise, but i think most important with any contact is outlining boundaries and enforcing them. i dunno what you know about boundaries, but they are about you, whether for your protection, or your expectations.

"I ended up not answering his last email and decided to never let him talk to me like this."

this is a boundary 

"For now, and after what you wrote me I am thinking that it might not even be a weak, but a strong decision"

i agree. i think its fine that you set a very high standard for recovery, even an impossible one, if thats what it is. i think its also a strong sign to recognize when and if it is, and adapt.

in fairness, i havent read your back story (i will after i reply) so i hope im not giving bad advice here either. youve indicated this person is verbally abusive and that you may be vulnerable to a recycle. im mainly trying to stick to the point that lc and nc are two different tools for different situations and different people.

my tries and errors? with regard to contact, it was mostly trying to exchange belongings as a means to force closure. it didnt happen, and i think that just kept me stuck and feeling in the loop for two months. i stopped, but as ive seen skip say, thats more about "ending the pursuit" than "nc". nc is often to protect yourself from abuse and potential or immediate danger. that doesnt mean lc doesnt necessarily come without its perils, thats one reason you need boundaries in place if its the option you choose. both options, like boundaries, are about you and your health.

any update on him traveling/getting back to you?

[Susan Sunday]

hey once removed, Lucky Jim and ZeusRLX,

thank you for encouraging me to be nicer to myself and as well for reminding me on the importance of having boundaries in place! which is anyhow one of my big issues - not only with him - and for sharing your own experiences. I will update you on, if and how i brought the topic up with my T, and I agree that its important to tell her about my reluctance in that matter.

once removed: as well to me, it seems as if lc would be the better working solution - cause it would at least leave the opportunity for some respectful encounter on the street - maybe small talk - if he is capable of that. i am not sure. but the minute that i could set some standards for our communication i would be less anxious about unexpected contact - and would have more of a feeling to be myself.

as to being vulnerable to a recycle; i am sure i am, but i also know that if - i would be more self confident than 6 month or a year ago - much more realistic, wearing some bulletproof vest. i just think it would be a shame to go back to it and risk my health and its for sure dangerous for us to meet - just like a lot of other people have explained on this board, we have this inexplicable chemistry - i mean: physically - that I guess comes with the disorder from his side (he uses it to overcome the anxiety that he experiences when meeting me) and my particular, but very questionable attraction to how he enforces it... .

Now, I am trying not to have my standards high up in the sky but more usable: if we would end up in yet another recycle -  then I will remove myself from a situation once I feel uncomfortable, scared or if he starts snapping at me or verbally abusing me - I have never done that before and always dealt with what happened afterwards at home by myself or by talking to friends. But for the first time, I feel as if I am not afraid of the consequences of me leaving, because i have come so far in processing during the past couple of month 

for now, I haven't heard back from him, but saw that he moved his car (to strange, but i would need to actively avoid looking at his parking lot, which would as well feel strange) - anyhow, since I have started posting about it here, I am less waiting for him to reply - but, since I saw the car I am again more anxious outside on the street. my strategy: trying to not think about it to much and not trying to make sense of any of his moves... .

once removed, you were writing about looking for closure - did you, in the end find it for yourself?

and do you think the inability of a pwBPD to accept closure has again to do with the immanent fear of abandonment or is it more a way to control respectively over control feelings and relationships?

Susan 

[once removed]

"as well to me, it seems as if lc would be the better working solution - cause it would at least leave the opportunity for some respectful encounter on the street - maybe small talk - if he is capable of that. i am not sure. but the minute that i could set some standards for our communication i would be less anxious about unexpected contact - and would have more of a feeling to be myself."

the thing about contact is that if i put myself in your position i cant really fathom how to control that anxiety let alone manage my expectations. its tough. youve obviously come a long way, but like i said, in the grand scheme of things i think its still early. in other words, this person is also a trigger for you. its difficult to manage expectations as it is, but i think it will help if that concept is a part of them. youre the only one you can control here, so its a fine line when it comes to keeping yourself emotionally protected. of course, if you suddenly didnt care, you wouldnt care to make sense of his moves. you wouldnt feel anxious. thats obviously not going to happen over night and may not even happen any time soon. accepting that and going from there is more important than it might sound. knowing your limitations, his, and the nature of the relationship.

"i just think it would be a shame to go back to it and risk my health and its for sure dangerous for us to meet"

so why meet? i think if you want lc you should take it very slowly, while detaching. as you mentioned:

"But when ever I am getting into an instable, difficult situation I feel like contacting him. Which is highly interesting, since he gives exactly the opposite of stability."

i think to some extent thats setting yourself up for a fall. youve accepted this person/relationship will not meet your needs. seeking him in need may be likely to backfire, and possibly, understandably, leave you more upset. youve got a strong support group in place with this board, your friends, and your therapist.

"then I will remove myself from a situation once I feel uncomfortable, scared or if he starts snapping at me or verbally abusing me"  also a boundary 

"for now, I haven't heard back from him, but saw that he moved his car"

i have a bad feeling, and bear in mind its just a feeling, that hes being dishonest here (probably not intentionally) and may not get back to you on meeting. i hope im wrong. youve mentioned he keeps his distance and needs a lot of privacy. remember youre dealing with a person who struggles with intimacy and empathy. being there for you may not be something hes capable of even he wants/intends to. obviously i cannot possibly know any of this, im basing my guess here on experience and the stories of others. if im correct i suspect he will contact you, but he may not even mention the meeting. again this is a lot of guess work and i may be totally off base. just trying to give you some sense of what you can expect and why.

"once removed, you were writing about looking for closure - did you, in the end find it for yourself?"

yes, but i have a hard time defining it. there was no single moment or epiphany (well, there were lots), just a long process. if there was a particular moment, it was learning about BPD. learning there was nothing i could do or could have done. deciding and believing there was no way i could go back (wasnt really an option anyway). in a way, being replaced gave me some closure. giving up on exchanging stuff. rebuilding my life and filling the hole. all those things were some form of closure. a lack of closure is a tricky kind of trauma. i think coming from a BPD relationship, its very much like you described, a ghost. the grieving is similar to the death of a loved one, yet they walk, which creates a profound sense of surreality. i think that feeling goes away.

"and do you think the inability of a pwBPD to accept closure has again to do with the immanent fear of abandonment or is it more a way to control respectively over control feelings and relationships?"

both. there are a lot of cliches like "pwBPD dont do closure", "pwBPD dont grieve", etc. theres truth to them, though not being BPD myself, its hard to say exactly how much. it also varies. another is that "pwBPD dont detach" which stands to reason if they dont grieve. these are not universal or absolute though. i witnessed my ex grieve her grandfather. but i also witnessed her frantically attempt to avoid grieving me. as you know, pwBPD are complex and complicated. i think its safe to say their process doesnt look much like ours.

hope this helps

[Susan Sunday]

"i have a bad feeling, and bear in mind its just a feeling, that hes being dishonest here (probably not intentionally) and may not get back to you on meeting. i hope im wrong. youve mentioned he keeps his distance and needs a lot of privacy. remember youre dealing with a person who struggles with intimacy and empathy. being there for you may not be something hes capable of even he wants/intends to. obviously i cannot possibly know any of this, im basing my guess here on experience and the stories of others. if im correct i suspect he will contact you, but he may not even mention the meeting. again this is a lot of guess work and i may be totally off base. just trying to give you some sense of what you can expect and why."

those are all very good guesses - matching my experiences with him almost 100% including: "i suspect he will contact you, but he may not even mention the meeting"  - he has hardly ever been a man of his word, always ran away when he in fact wanted to be there for me - knows this about himself in certain self reflective moments - told me: i am known for disappoint people. i don't think that he intended to not getting back to me on meeting but that in this very moment it felt right for him especially with the distance - and now it might not feel possible or right anymore, or he might not even be able to care or really remember. anyways, i am sure that he finds some immanently working explanation for himself. but the question is more, what kind of consequence do i draw from it - and then it all goes back to: "youre the only one you can control here" and this will eventually be easier the less i think i can change anything about him.

more later... .

[once removed]

well, im mainly glad i wasnt poking at any nerves with my suggestion, because i hesitated to include it. the thought can be highly triggering and suggest things like "he doesnt care", "hes ignoring you", etc, and none of those are true. the truth is that it isnt personal. it is what it is, but it isnt personal, and i suspect his intentions matched his words. at the same time, i wanted to make you feel not crazy for noticing the car had moved. im glad that it matched your experiences so youll have an idea of what to expect.

"but the question is more, what kind of consequence do i draw from it - and then it all goes back to: "youre the only one you can control here" and this will eventually be easier the less i think i can change anything about him."

i think thats correct. this is part of the reason so much of the advice on this board can be summed up with "turn the focus to yourself". that is much easier said than done, but it applies in virtually every situation, NC or LC. youre the only one you can control. if you want LC, in general, you have to radically accept what youre dealing with and have at least some idea of what to expect. have you read much on the concept of radical acceptance?

as i see it, when you actually boil it down, you have two expectations. LC, and knowing what hes up to. imo those are healthfully low expectations. there may be little to nothing in it for you. so i also see two goals: accept him for who he is, and accept yourself for who you are.

as an example, i have close friends i can go to and pour my heart out to, and they will make me feel heard, validated, and give great advice. i have others, still close friends, that are more or less the opposite. if i expect otherwise, i feel hurt and resentful. if i try harder, worse. maintaining a relationship with this person is GOING to entail what you can and cant expect, and how you will or wont react. in essence, the only thing you CAN do is have low expectations, except of course in terms of boundaries. you can control how you interact with him, not how he interacts with you. i think youre doing a good job of that. if he were to haul off and punch you in the face, and you said "well, i cant control him", i think that would be an example of weak to non existent boundaries. youve laid out how youll act and react and thats just about all you can do.

i think youre on the right track so long as you learn as much about this personality disorder as you can. it will generally lower your expectations, and it will also soften the blow of his actions or reactions. just dont believe the peer pressure about NC, in fact it may benefit you to read the staying and undecided boards. if youre going to maintain a relationship, no better time than to learn the tools.

[Susan Sunday]

"well, im mainly glad i wasnt poking at any nerves with my suggestion, because i hesitated to include it. the thought can be highly triggering and suggest things like "he doesnt care", "hes ignoring you", etc, and none of those are true. the truth is that it isnt personal. it is what it is, but it isnt personal, and i suspect his intentions matched his words. at the same time, i wanted to make you feel not crazy for noticing the car had moved. im glad that it matched your experiences so youll have an idea of what to expect."

no, you weren't pocking at my nerves and not triggering me or anything like that! it's the opposite, all you're writing is very helpful! i am not exactly taking it personal that he is not getting back to me and knew already that i couldn't take him by his word, but i have to admit that it is not exactly easy for me either. it makes me feel sad and a bit more lonely or so. there are, i guess, three possibility for it to continue right now: 1. to keep it low and leave it as it is. 2. him making an unexpected move, show up at a place where i am likely to meet or wait for me at the library exit (all happened) and approach me super casual as if nothing ever happened, 3. I will ask him one or two more times if he has time to meet me and eventuality he will agree and do me the favor. All of it not what i want, but what it is. 

concerning lc - i am reading a bit on the "staying" and "undecided"-board, but am kinda struggling with the thought that i am preserving the idea of being in a (romantic) relationship with him - even though we didn't speak in month. on the other hand - i know that it would make me generally calmer to be in touch -

And:

at the weekend i saw him in town, walking around a street corner with shopping bags in his hands, at a place where i normally do my shopping as well - this time i was on a bus, but it just reminded me again on how we could meet everywhere, anytime and that i somehow need to be prepared for it to happen soon. strangely enough it mostly happens at times that i totally don't expect it to happen. like today I was walking through the backyard  of the place where I have my office, which happens to be as well on the same street where we live but even closer to his house (there, we basically share the parking lot), and spoke to someone on the phone - I was calm cause I didn't see his car, but then of course a second later he enters the parking lot - and then again: a reminder on how i am still so extremely uneasy - i couldn't breath for some seconds and was shaking for a couple of minutes after that... .which makes me think, that i might not have come so far... .and it showed me how much i need to have a good strategy in place for when i bump into him... .that then makes the fourth option and by far the most unpleasant one!

i also had one of those moments:"the grieving is similar to the death of a loved one, yet they walk, which creates a profound sense of surreality." and am still waiting for it to go away. one of the difficult things for me in this, and it goes into the same direction of what you said here, he left me with so much stuff to deal with by myself - I am grieving him as if he died because he basically left me in the middle of a sentence. last time i saw him, he suggested to see a couple therapist (completely out the the blue) i was so in shock that he made a move that suggested to actually work on the relationship that i didn't really say much about it, but wanted to get back to him on that (obviously also because i thought it could be a good thing for him to see someone) - so, i am thinking about this and some other stuff he said that day about me not wanting him ... .that i wanted to talk to him about not knowing that i had already missed my chance.

sorry, for dropping so much again, but it kinda came up with him passing by me twice in the last three days... .

to sump it up: i wish to improve lc, so i can have the realty check of his existence and not the feeling everything is only happening in my head and i don't even know this person... .

[Susan Sunday]

my therapist by the way, is trying to give me a different kind of reality check. she tells me all over again, almost like a mantra, that he doesn't want me and and how he made himself clear about that - and that he will never be able to see me as i want it.

i understand that this can be a therapeutic method and maybe one day, i will understand how it helped me, for now it is difficult for me to accept it, because it gives me a strange feeling of her being on his side (which i know i am deflecting) and i am not seeing her understanding the difficulty to detach myself from this specific behavioral structure.   but i have told her, that ive contacted him and also that i didnt wanna talk about it in the first place. and i appreciate that she doesn't let me analyze him in the sessions, but makes me talk about myself.

and: just for clarification. it is a complete coincidence that we are living so close, we met at the university at the other side of town and were already living on the same street for over a year at that point. 

[once removed]

"i am not exactly taking it personal that he is not getting back to me and knew already that i couldn't take him by his word, but i have to admit that it is not exactly easy for me either."

no, its not easy. saying dont take it personally is easy, and its true that it isnt, but it feels personal and it doesnt feel good.

"there are, i guess, three possibility for it to continue right now: 1. to keep it low and leave it as it is. 2. him making an unexpected move, show up at a place where i am likely to meet or wait for me at the library exit (all happened) and approach me super casual as if nothing ever happened, 3. I will ask him one or two more times if he has time to meet me and eventuality he will agree and do me the favor. All of it not what i want, but what it is."

i recommend number one be your attitude and plan. two is certainly a possibility but doesnt have to effect your attitude or approach. in my opinion three may keep you stuck and exacerbate loneliness whether he agrees or not. and it might backfire. youre lowering your expectations and expecting a lot less, but i suspect the more your behavior matches that attitude, the more ingrained and felt that attitude becomes.

"concerning lc - i am reading a bit on the "staying" and "undecided"-board, but am kinda struggling with the thought that i am preserving the idea of being in a (romantic) relationship with him - even though we didn't speak in month."

great idea. not only for an idea of what to expect, but to learn the tools if youre going to be in lc. when you say youre struggling with that thought, do you mean you think thats what youre doing, or youve read a similar suggestion and didnt think it applied to you?

"on the other hand - i know that it would make me generally calmer to be in touch -"

i think an important question to ask yourself here is whether thats long or short term. know your motives. ill elaborate:

if its keeping you generally calmer short term, it could be in your greater long term interest to lose the calm and feel the pain and emerge from it far stronger. if it will keep you generally calmer long term, thats more reflective of your attitude and who you are, and it isnt wrong.

when i was recovering i clung to a fantasy (and in no remote way am implying you are doing so, my situation had nothing to do with contact). that fantasy was more or less my ex would somewhere down the road, seek help, get it, and some day, magically, return to me. the good news is that when i was ready, i tossed the fantasy out the window and no longer clung to it. i wouldnt consider it a mistake though. it wasnt right or wrong. its possible that it delayed my recovery, but i fully recovered in spite of it, and trusted myself to do so. if theres a similarity, its that with limited contact you CAN still detach. ill elaborate:

its possible that with lc you may some day simply not want any contact. its also possible that if thats the case, nc could actually take you even longer to get to that day; you wouldnt necessarily find that closure for yourself that lc can result in. thats been the path for several members. of course it may be that you simply detach and never have another problem with him again, or at least it wont much effect you if you do. ill reiterate, and hope ive illustrated, in terms of lc vs nc, there isnt a right or wrong. with lc there might be potential mistakes made, but changing your expectations is partly a learning experience. as a side note, like ive said, given your proximity, i dont see much choice.

"and then again: a reminder on how i am still so extremely uneasy - i couldn't breath for some seconds and was shaking for a couple of minutes after that... .which makes me think, that i might not have come so far... ."

makes perfect sense to me. i mean, on some level, im sure his very existence makes you uneasy. add to that the fact that he told you hed be traveling, then be in touch, and you see him running around. thats a surreal experience. uneasy is understandable. it may not be personal, but that doesnt mean youre not allowed to feel badly about it.

"i also had one of those moments:"the grieving is similar to the death of a loved one, yet they walk, which creates a profound sense of surreality." and am still waiting for it to go away."

im guessing here, but elaborating on what i just said, some of that reaction may not necessarily even be personal on your end. just shock. the surreality. youve lowered your expectations, but BPD/npd behavior is still largely unpredictable. think about it. if you were fully detached and this happened to a friend instead of you, ill bet itd still be shocking and unsettling. however, its happening to you, and you also have wounds that likely were triggered.

"so, i am thinking about this and some other stuff he said that day about me not wanting him ... .that i wanted to talk to him about not knowing that i had already missed my chance."

if i recall correctly youre two months out, one month with no contact. trauma is a complex thing and plays out in complex ways. you are likely to experience triggers, some of them sudden and out of nowhere. you are likely to experience flash backs. you are likely to replay the relationship in your mind, if not a million times. thats your psyche processing and trying to make sense of what youve been through. you are likely to second guess your actions. same thing.

if i sound matter of fact about some pretty profound stuff, its because i think you demonstrate you can accept that. in my own process im not sure anything helped me more than knowing what i could expect and accepting it as it came. id like to recommend the following lesson on this:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=64749.0

i recommend the entire thread. mindfulness taught me to detach from my thoughts and feelings. to think of them in a similar way i would to a headache. add to that the other bpdfamily articles, and the stories of others, and you know the kind of headaches to expect, and when they might, and as a result i knew myself better than id have imagined. i cant stress enough how that skill will benefit me for the rest of my life. headaches, like feelings, will pass.

"sorry, for dropping so much again, but it kinda came up with him passing by me twice in the last three days... ."

dont apologize! share as much as you want. thats what this board is for. im glad to be helping, the more info/insight the better for both of us

on the subject of your therapist: do you feel you are benefiting or believe that you will benefit? ill admit some of that kind of made me cringe. i dont want to second guess your therapist, especially since im not one, but choosing the right therapist can be a process. a good therapist will not promote victim mentality, and they will center the focus on you, but not every therapist is right for every person. do you know if this therapist has experience with personality disorders? keep in mind thats hardly a requirement, you can definitely use this forum as part of the therapeutic process, just something to consider.

[Susan Sunday]

"i recommend number one be your attitude and plan. two is certainly a possibility but doesnt have to effect your attitude or approach. in my opinion three may keep you stuck and exacerbate loneliness whether he agrees or not. and it might backfire. youre lowering your expectations and expecting a lot less, but i suspect the more your behavior matches that attitude, the more ingrained and felt that attitude becomes."

i am working on it, to be honest, every hour of the day! i don't know why, but it seems to be more difficult not to contact him, than it used to be and the fact that he isn’t able to give me some recognition makes me very sad. its less a feeling of "why is he doing this to me" but more of "what a f***ed up situation this is".   

"great idea." - it was yours  

"when you say youre struggling with that thought, do you mean you think thats what youre doing, or youve read a similar suggestion and didnt think it applied to you?" - its more, that the whole situation of him ghosting me already kinda generates the feeling that our relationship never actually happened  - but on top of it, to read on how to improve a "relationship" with someone I haven't heard of in 4 weeks and who before that told me he doesn't wanna be bothered by me - seems a bit irrational if i am trying to look at it from the outside - even though it could help me to be more self-confident in a situation that i coincidentally meet him... .but i haven't yet made up my mind, what i feel and think about it.

"its possible that with lc you may some day simply not want any contact. its also possible that if thats the case, nc could actually take you even longer to get to that day; you wouldnt necessarily find that closure for yourself that lc can result in. thats been the path for several members. of course it may be that you simply detach and never have another problem with him again, or at least it wont much effect you if you do. ill reiterate, and hope ive illustrated, in terms of lc vs nc, there isnt a right or wrong. with lc there might be potential mistakes made, but changing your expectations is partly a learning experience. as a side note, like ive said, given your proximity, i dont see much choice"

Same feeling here - but i can't think of how to apply lc - and for now he's disappeared again... .the only thing i can think of would be to ask him again, if he wants to meet me. 

"if i recall correctly youre two months out, one month with no contact" - last recycle was in mid January, then lc for about 2 month, then he cut me off with this very nasty and hurtful email, that I didn’t answer for another 2 month and then i wrote him if we could meet a good 3 - 4 weeks ago... .so around 3 month nc.

"trauma is a complex thing and plays out in complex ways. you are likely to experience triggers, some of them sudden and out of nowhere"

it took me really long to understand that i was traumatized by him and that being triggered is what explains some of my own behavior. i just remembered how i used to sometimes lose my language when i was with him - for being so terrified of another attack. - that English is not my mother tongue, but his, adds to it, i guess. Plus, my third language is his other mother tongue - since he grew up bilingual... .long story anyways, i just recently immigrated, which probably made me even more vulnerable to him... .anyhow, I am using mostly English for work and in all kinds of other professional contexts, i am lecturing in English and writing academically - so i haven't ever experienced any problems before ive met him. i am usually very playful with words and its fun for me to play around with language - one of his things was it, to get annoyed whenever i didnt know the meaning of a term he used. but even more traumatizing was, that he used to tell how he couldnt talk to me - that there was something in the way i am that made him unable to talk to me. - do you have any thoughts on that? it is one of the things that i can't get out of my head - the only explanation i have, is that talking - listening - showing interest, affection and empathy is what i am kinda good at.


one time, he drove us into a parking garage - we were on our way to hear a lecture - then accelerated and only hit the brakes super short before we would have actually hit the wall - and i just acted as if this was the most normal thing in the world. puh. i knew, that he wouldnt kill us - but on the way home, i simply couldnt talk, physically - he wanted to take me for lunch and i just wanted to go home - once i got home i called him to ask him if he still wanted to have lunch, apologized to him for having a bad day and that ive acted weird before. i guess thats what we call trauma - not necessarily co-dependence - but probably that too.  

at the weekend i went out dancing (which i am proud of myself for!) and saw a guy who totally looked like him - i coudnt stop checking, if it was him - i was paralyzed for some time, felt anger and caught myself observing this guys behavior that as well reminded me on him - genuine trigger? And i have out of the blue weeping attacks, basically since our first breakup, which I consider a sign of trauma, too.

on the subject of my therapist and on the lesson you gave me the link to: i'll share my thoughts later... . 

"dont apologize! share as much as you want. thats what this board is for. im glad to be helping, the more info/insight the better for both of us"

thank you! this means a lot!

[once removed]

"i am working on it, to be honest, every hour of the day! i don't know why, but it seems to be more difficult not to contact him, than it used to be and the fact that he isn’t able to give me some recognition makes me very sad. its less a feeling of "why is he doing this to me" but more of "what a f***ed up situation this is".

i understand that. in many cases, in a lot of ways, it gets worse before it gets better. its a process. think about it this way: you are detaching. in general, feelings of anxiety are a common side effect of detaching. in the process, youre also processing new and different kinds of pain which can compound it all, however, you can also look at that as progress in itself, if that makes sense.

"but on top of it, to read on how to improve a "relationship" with someone I haven't heard of in 4 weeks and who before that told me he doesn't wanna be bothered by me - seems a bit irrational"

that makes sense. but by that measure, itd be irrational for anyone on the leaving board to learn more about BPD and npd. learning this stuff, the tools, is useful in several ways. thats not to say theres no potential to become overfocused on the person or the relationship, theres plenty of that, and probably the vast majority of us do that to some extent. we turn the focus to ourselves when/as we are ready. your psyche wants to understand, make sense out of the insensible, and try to somehow process it all. its uncomfortable with the outcome, and on some level wants to control or change it, at least until it reaches acceptance. with all that in mind, learning "this stuff" is very useful in that regard. and in that sense, its easy for me to see where learning the tools can gleam some insight into the evolution, patterns of the relationship, and answers a lot of the "how did this happen" kind of questions.

"it took me really long to understand that i was traumatized by him and that being triggered is what explains some of my own behavior."

yeah, i had similar feelings. the whole process taught me a lot about trauma and the body/psyches response to it. they say leaving the womb is one of the most traumatic experiences we face, which seems odd because we cant remember it, but its deeply embedded in our psyche. not to mention, i learned what constitutes "abandonment" is really very broad. the treatment youve received by someone youve loved is most definitely a traumatic experience. the situation is surreal to say the least, and the fact that youre in very close proximity just makes it that much tougher. it doesnt mean you cant or wont heal, but it can certainly be an obstacle.

"i just remembered how i used to sometimes lose my language when i was with him - for being so terrified of another attack. - that English is not my mother tongue, but his, adds to it, i guess. Plus, my third language is his other mother tongue - since he grew up bilingual... .long story anyways, i just recently immigrated, which probably made me even more vulnerable to him... .anyhow, I am using mostly English for work and in all kinds of other professional contexts, i am lecturing in English and writing academically - so i haven't ever experienced any problems before ive met him. i am usually very playful with words and its fun for me to play around with language - one of his things was it, to get annoyed whenever i didnt know the meaning of a term he used. but even more traumatizing was, that he used to tell how he couldnt talk to me - that there was something in the way i am that made him unable to talk to me. - do you have any thoughts on that? it is one of the things that i can't get out of my head - the only explanation i have, is that talking - listening - showing interest, affection and empathy is what i am kinda good at."

i have read similar stories. i could be wrong here, but it seems to me that the whole language thing is a part of a very loose identity. most of the stories im referring to dealt with things like race, gender, sexuality, etc, but it makes sense to me that language could fit in there too. my suspicion is that whether conscious or not, he saw that this treatment hurt you, perhaps deeply. i think a pwBPD or npd can be hypersensitive to noticing what makes us tick and push our buttons. and if their own are pushed, they may be willing to "go there". or just simply a way to make you feel generally insecure, a sort of control thing. by the way, im a stickler for good and creative use of language, and i think your english is excellent i would not have noticed.

"one time, he drove us into a parking garage - we were on our way to hear a lecture - then accelerated and only hit the brakes super short before we would have actually hit the wall - and i just acted as if this was the most normal thing in the world. puh. i knew, that he wouldnt kill us - but on the way home, i simply couldnt talk, physically - he wanted to take me for lunch and i just wanted to go home - once i got home i called him to ask him if he still wanted to have lunch, apologized to him for having a bad day and that ive acted weird before. i guess thats what we call trauma - not necessarily co-dependence - but probably that too. wink"

these relationships have a way of conditioning us to trauma or just all around negative treatment. in general, thats walking on eggshells. and yes, thats a highly traumatic experience. thats violent controlling, abusive behavior, and i think thats putting it mildly. but its partly due to that conditioning that we stay in those situations. i assume if that happened with a person youd just met, your reaction would have been very different.

"at the weekend i went out dancing (which i am proud of myself for!)" you should be! good for you.

"and saw a guy who totally looked like him - i coudnt stop checking, if it was him - i was paralyzed for some time, felt anger and caught myself observing this guys behavior that as well reminded me on him - genuine trigger?"

yeah. that probably wont be the last time you have a similar reaction. with that conditioning in mind, its actually really scary to adjust and frankly just live your life. and there are endless similar stories on this board. things like noticing red flags everywhere and being hypersensitive to them, and hypervigilant about them, comparing a new person to the ex, having some difficulty adjusting to "normal", thinking everyone you meet might be BPD, etc. the comparison isnt exact at all, but say, an abused dog, is likely to be afraid of humans, at least for some time. your reaction is natural and normal. it will go away with time, and the more you continue to really live your life.

brings me kinda full circle with the point about things getting worse before they get better. living your life to the fullest is precisely the right thing to do, but for some time, it makes you even more susceptible to similar triggers. trust the process. i might have made this point already, but you can think of a great deal of what is prescribed by bpdfamily as sort of an emotional cast. its the right path to truly healing and recovering. a physical cast doesnt mean an absence of pain or susceptibility to pain. if you have a broken arm in a cast, and someone slams your arm on something, its still going to hurt, a lot. but the cast ensures the broken arm heals properly. in the same way, believe it or not, you are healing, but that doesnt at all mean an absence of pain. it may not at all feel like youre healing, it may feel the opposite, but when you get there and you look back, its much easier to see.

"And i have out of the blue weeping attacks, basically since our first breakup, which I consider a sign of trauma, too."

i had those too for at least six months, on a daily basis. its really tough stuff. they say crying helps, but it definitely didnt feel like it did. it was such a wave, i could feel it coming on before it happened. yes, its a sign of trauma, also a sign of depression. if its long term, it can be a sign of dysthimia. it can also be a sign of something called adjustment disorder, which im prone to believe many members here suffer from in the aftermath of their relationship.

www.webmd.com/mental-health/mental-health-adjustment-disorder?page=2

www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/dysthymia/basics/definition/con-20033879

"on the subject of my therapist and on the lesson you gave me the link to: i'll share my thoughts later... ." please do!

""dont apologize! share as much as you want. thats what this board is for. im glad to be helping, the more info/insight the better for both of us"

thank you! this means a lot! Empathy"

sorry i didnt get back to you sooner, i was out of town from monday till today, but im around now

[Susan Sunday]

"i understand that. in many cases, in a lot of ways, it gets worse before it gets better. its a process. think about it this way: you are detaching. in general, feelings of anxiety are a common side effect of detaching. in the process, youre also processing new and different kinds of pain which can compound it all, however, you can also look at that as progress in itself, if that makes sense."

That makes a lot of sense and gives hope, even some motivation. his pathology, I guess, played perfectly into my whole live situation - since I am detaching from home - and have always had a tendency for anxiety and even anxiety attacks, through all my live. this might be also a reason for why I fall for it - those are very familiar feelings for me - and I might be looking for them in other people.  Detaching from him obviously means a lot more than only that, but facing some other very painful facts about myself. For yourself, would you say that some of the stuff you went through prepared you to have better relationships and to be better to yourself? Cause I do think that sometimes.

"with all that in mind, learning "this stuff" is very useful in that regard. and in that sense, its easy for me to see where learning the tools can gleam some insight into the evolution, patterns of the relationship, and answers a lot of the "how did this happen" kind of questions."

So far, it has helped me a lot and I will never forget how I felt when I started reading about BPD cause I have had the feeling that there was something going on, that i wouldn't be able to grab otherwise, how it made me feel so sick - when I saw how all i read matched his behavior so very well - and in the same time, it relieved me to some extend and i would have never been able to take the blame and guilt and devaluation away from me without getting into the learning -  I even feel that I am more helpful to others that are in indifferent or kind of abusive situations. Bottom line: this situation might have its own rationality - and my fear of detaching from the outside world might come from some place else, not necessarily from the fact that i am learning about what happened to me, but it might still have to do with it, since i have isolated myself a lot with him and without him. partly because i saw the world through what perceived was his perspective and started disliking people for being boring or self-centered or superficial (everything he's accused me of as well)

"not to mention, i learned what constitutes "abandonment" is really very broad" - do you mean for yourself or in your relationship?

"the treatment youve received by someone youve loved is most definitely a traumatic experience. the situation is surreal to say the least, and the fact that youre in very close proximity just makes it that much tougher. it doesnt mean you cant or wont heal, but it can certainly be an obstacle."

I just have had a random anxiety attack at work one day last week (10 minutes after he passed by me in his car) and a migraine the next day so I couldn't go to work, after he had passed by me in his car again the same day at night... .this is not the only pressure i am under, but i do actually think, that there is a strong and very immediate connection to him.

and, i am getting flashbacks. not so nice either and sometimes challenging, since they are not always of bad but also fun situations so that i forget the pain. but i am, on the other hand, still keeping stuff he said to me, to myself, cause i am to ashamed to tell anyone how he spoke to me. 

"i have read similar stories. i could be wrong here, but it seems to me that the whole language thing is a part of a very loose identity." - would you be able to elaborate a little bit more on what you mean by "loose identity" - the direction is kinda clear but i am still not 100% sure about it.

and another story pops up, that might go into that direction and in which he told me that he thinks God actually speaks the language that is my mother tongue (he was fairly out of it during that moment and not ironic at all (which he can be) - some typical condition that usually came up when we had very close moments and in which he sometimes started to play insulting mind games that usually concluded in a breakup.

"most of the stories im referring to dealt with things like race, gender, sexuality, etc" - also topics that came up between us - he used to insult me a lot for where i am coming from, very twisted sometimes with no obvious connection to anything - he also thinks of women that they are manipulative and dishonest (which he didn't use so much against me, but talked about it a lot) - sexuality was used by him as the final reason for his last breakup: he always told me how fascinatingly good our sex was and used to encourage me to tell him stories about me having sex with other women - then the last time i saw him, he told me that he thinks that i am a lesbian and that it won't work out with us for that reason - what a brilliant move of his  i am still standing there like a duck in a thunderstorm, or so... .


"my suspicion is that whether conscious or not, he saw that this treatment hurt you, perhaps deeply. i think a pwBPD or npd can be hypersensitive to noticing what makes us tick and push our buttons. and if their own are pushed, they may be willing to "go there". or just simply a way to make you feel generally insecure, a sort of control thing. " " - amazing quality of his, always new what would hurt me the most. sometimes he even encouraged certain behavior in me (as ive mentioned before) to then slap me for it.

"by the way, im a stickler for good and creative use of language, and i think your english is excellent  i would not have noticed." nice! and, thank you, i am happy to hear!

"living your life to the fullest is precisely the right thing to do, but for some time, it makes you even more susceptible to similar triggers. trust the process." - i can already see how it is getting easier and how i am more motivated to do things just because i want them and not because i think that he would like them. what helps me right now, is taking the damage more serious and give it some space and take decision according to it, like for example not to go to certain places... .

"also a sign of depression. if its long term, it can be a sign of dysthimia." - ive read the links and am pretty sure that thats whats going on with me and has been for quite a while. now, after reading this, i, for the first time, think that i am allowed to feel that way, which is a big step.

""on the subject of my therapist and on the lesson you gave me the link to: i'll share my thoughts later... ." please do!" - i am actually sharing your opinion on my therapist - i don't think that she knows a lot about pd's and not so much about the effect that  they can have on  people that are in rs's with those who suffer from them - and i need to think about, if talking to her, while everything is so acute right now, might not be enough (also i am here and i have you! which is an incredibly big help!) - on the other hand, does she work with trauma, depression and anxiety - so i might get helpful things out of it if i only see it for what it is and her for what she is good at.

As to the idea of "mindful thinking" - it is a very helpful tool and i tried it out in the past - respectively made it my pattern with him, but couldn't always keep up with it - plus: would have needed more time to use it with him that i wasn't given - but it helps in daily live and even when he attacked me in an email - i would put it aside, give it some time and only after ive went through all the stages of anger, frustration and pain i responded ... .one time, that i used it, he even apologized to me. so, yes! its great and makes me sad in the same time.   

"sorry i didnt get back to you sooner, i was out of town from monday till today, but im around now" - no worries, i get caught up in work and other stuff too and now, i am glad you are back! 

[Susan Sunday]

"i understand that. in many cases, in a lot of ways, it gets worse before it gets better. its a process. think about it this way: you are detaching. in general, feelings of anxiety are a common side effect of detaching. in the process, youre also processing new and different kinds of pain which can compound it all, however, you can also look at that as progress in itself, if that makes sense."

That makes a lot of sense and gives hope, even some motivation. his pathology, I guess, played perfectly into my whole live situation - since I am detaching from home - and have always had a tendency for anxiety and even anxiety attacks, through all my live. this might be also a reason for why I fall for it - those are very familiar feelings for me - and I might be looking for them in other people.  Detaching from him obviously means a lot more than only that, but facing some other very painful facts about myself. For yourself, would you say that some of the stuff you went through prepared you to have better relationships and to be better to yourself? Cause I do think that sometimes.

"with all that in mind, learning "this stuff" is very useful in that regard. and in that sense, its easy for me to see where learning the tools can gleam some insight into the evolution, patterns of the relationship, and answers a lot of the "how did this happen" kind of questions."

So far, it has helped me a lot and I will never forget how I felt when I started reading about BPD cause I have had the feeling that there was something going on, that i wouldn't be able to grab otherwise, how it made me feel so sick - when I saw how all i read matched his behavior so very well - and in the same time, it relieved me to some extend and i would have never been able to take the blame and guilt and devaluation away from me without getting into the learning -  I even feel that I am more helpful to others that are in indifferent or kind of abusive situations. Bottom line: this situation might have its own rationality - and my fear of detaching from the outside world might come from some place else, not necessarily from the fact that i am learning about what happened to me, but it might still have to do with it, since i have isolated myself a lot with him and without him. partly because i saw the world through what perceived was his perspective and started disliking people for being boring or self-centered or superficial (everything he's accused me of as well)

"not to mention, i learned what constitutes "abandonment" is really very broad" - do you mean for yourself or in your relationship?

"the treatment youve received by someone youve loved is most definitely a traumatic experience. the situation is surreal to say the least, and the fact that youre in very close proximity just makes it that much tougher. it doesnt mean you cant or wont heal, but it can certainly be an obstacle."

I just have had a random anxiety attack at work one day last week (10 minutes after he passed by me in his car) and a migraine the next day so I couldn't go to work, after he had passed by me in his car again the same day at night... .this is not the only pressure i am under, but i do actually think, that there is a strong and very immediate connection to him.

and, i am getting flashbacks. not so nice either and sometimes challenging, since they are not always of bad but also fun situations so that i forget the pain. but i am, on the other hand, still keeping stuff he said to me, to myself, cause i am to ashamed to tell anyone how he spoke to me. 

"i have read similar stories. i could be wrong here, but it seems to me that the whole language thing is a part of a very loose identity." - would you be able to elaborate a little bit more on what you mean by "loose identity" - the direction is kinda clear but i am still not 100% sure about it.

and another story pops up, that might go into that direction and in which he told me that he thinks God actually speaks the language that is my mother tongue (he was fairly out of it during that moment and not ironic at all (which he can be) - some typical condition that usually came up when we had very close moments and in which he sometimes started to play insulting mind games that usually concluded in a breakup.

"most of the stories im referring to dealt with things like race, gender, sexuality, etc" - also topics that came up between us - he used to insult me a lot for where i am coming from, very twisted sometimes with no obvious connection to anything - he also thinks of women that they are manipulative and dishonest (which he didn't use so much against me, but talked about it a lot) - sexuality was used by him as the final reason for his last breakup: he always told me how fascinatingly good our sex was and used to encourage me to tell him stories about me having sex with other women - then the last time i saw him, he told me that he thinks that i am a lesbian and that it won't work out with us for that reason - what a brilliant move of his  i am still standing there like a duck in a thunderstorm, or so... .


"my suspicion is that whether conscious or not, he saw that this treatment hurt you, perhaps deeply. i think a pwBPD or npd can be hypersensitive to noticing what makes us tick and push our buttons. and if their own are pushed, they may be willing to "go there". or just simply a way to make you feel generally insecure, a sort of control thing. " " - amazing quality of his, always new what would hurt me the most. sometimes he even encouraged certain behavior in me (as ive mentioned before) to then slap me for it.

"by the way, im a stickler for good and creative use of language, and i think your english is excellent  i would not have noticed." nice! and, thank you, i am happy to hear!

"living your life to the fullest is precisely the right thing to do, but for some time, it makes you even more susceptible to similar triggers. trust the process." - i can already see how it is getting easier and how i am more motivated to do things just because i want them and not because i think that he would like them. what helps me right now, is taking the damage more serious and give it some space and take decision according to it, like for example not to go to certain places... .

"also a sign of depression. if its long term, it can be a sign of dysthimia." - ive read the links and am pretty sure that thats whats going on with me and has been for quite a while. now, after reading this, i, for the first time, think that i am allowed to feel that way, which is a big step.

""on the subject of my therapist and on the lesson you gave me the link to: i'll share my thoughts later... ." please do!" - i am actually sharing your opinion on my therapist - i don't think that she knows a lot about pd's and not so much about the effect that  they can have on  people that are in rs's with those who suffer from them - and i need to think about, if talking to her, while everything is so acute right now, might not be enough (also i am here and i have you! which is an incredibly big help!) - on the other hand, does she work with trauma, depression and anxiety - so i might get helpful things out of it if i only see it for what it is and her for what she is good at.

As to the idea of "mindful thinking" - it is a very helpful tool and i tried it out in the past - respectively made it my pattern with him, but couldn't always keep up with it - plus: would have needed more time to use it with him that i wasn't given - but it helps in daily live and even when he attacked me in an email or when he was giving me the silent treatment or disappeared - i would put my feelings aside, give it some time and only after ive went through all the stages of anger, frustration and pain i responded or approach him ... .one time, that i used it, he even apologized to me. so, yes! its great and makes me sad in the same time.   

"sorry i didnt get back to you sooner, i was out of town from monday till today, but im around now" - no worries, i get caught up in work and other stuff too and now, i am glad you are back! 

[once removed]

"this might be also a reason for why I fall for it - those are very familiar feelings for me - and I might be looking for them in other people."

thats great and useful insight! i have done this too. somewhere between subconsciously and consciously ive looked for romantic partners and friends that i could connect with based on our mutual issues and some kind of mutual understanding. frankly in my case theres a bit of projection to that. with my BPDex that projection was mirrored back, so the connection felt that much stronger; i felt "understood" and felt i "understood" her. as human beings we dont want to be alone, either in our struggles or at all. its easier to connect to people that we feel understand where we are coming from. the fact is even if others understand, we are all unique, and are coming from different places. if a person tells you "i know how you feel", they dont. they cant. they arent you. even if theyve gone through exactly the same scenario. they are bringing a completely different set of life experiences to the table as well as a different brain chemistry. its funny: i remember a study i heard when i was very young, that people often bond more easily over stuff they hate, ie "man i hate that one band" "oh i hate them too!". i think its a shallow connection now, if not an unhealthy one. i try, now, to look at others as very different than me, as autonomous human beings with their own likes, loves, and experiences, and try to appreciate them, or not, from that perspective. my expectations in the past have disappointed me anyway.

":)etaching from him obviously means a lot more than only that, but facing some other very painful facts about myself."

im of the opinion that if you truly want to heal, not only from the relationship but in general, and with some of the wounds that led you to/kept you in relationship, this is precisely, if not the only, path to go down. i think youre doing a great job at it too. it takes a lot of courage. but fortunately when you realize this, and start to do it, it can be very motivating to continue. sometimes i think the hardest part is the first step; admitting we have our own issues and played our own role. when we come here looking for help and understanding, the notion can feel kind of mean. but once we begin to do it, and feel its effects, its like exercise. we want to do it even more. it is both detachment, and coming closer to fully realizing who we are, and thats a good thing 

we all have a part of our ego called the "lonely child", sometimes referred to as the "understanding child". part of therapy is exploring trauma from our past, connecting with our lonely child, and reprocessing it by syncing the lonely childs feelings with our adult experience and understanding, thus working through it. that applies in conjunction with these relationships; they opened up wounds that existed a long time before we met our partners. if that werent the case, then painting our exes black would be the simple solution.

"For yourself, would you say that some of the stuff you went through prepared you to have better relationships and to be better to yourself? Cause I do think that sometimes."

yes, absolutely, in more ways than i can even list. in that sense, the BPD relationship was one of the best things to ever happen to me. it gives you an opportunity to heal things you werent even aware existed, and become the best version of yourself. it challenges you in a multitude of ways, including reexamining your thoughts on love and relationships of all kinds. the healing process is like mental exercise in terms of self awareness. youre able to see mistakes, realize they were mistakes without blaming yourself, and this facilitates powerful self growth. thats a wonderful thing to bring to a new relationship. part of me isnt sure i was capable of a healthy relationship without the BPD experience. i sure didnt realize that before it. i just hope you realize what a powerful advantage this is, and how much its going to serve you in the long run. really and truly.

"So far, it has helped me a lot and I will never forget how I felt when I started reading about BPD cause I have had the feeling that there was something going on, that i wouldn't be able to grab otherwise, how it made me feel so sick - when I saw how all i read matched his behavior so very well - and in the same time, it relieved me to some extend and i would have never been able to take the blame and guilt and devaluation away from me without getting into the learning"

it makes you feel considerably less crazy because everything youre going through and have been through is there on paper as well as the experiences of others. at the time, i was stunned that in the context of a personality disorder, one could profile a relationship with that person, the kinds of people that become involved in those relationships, and even the typical kinds of wounds suffered. you come to a forum and a bunch of strangers can tell you what youve been through before you even tell them, and theyve been through it too! its a shock to the system in its own right, but its kinda similar to hitting the lottery; a shock, but a gift at the end of the day. and yes, suddenly everything youve been through feels way less personal.

"I even feel that I am more helpful to others that are in indifferent or kind of abusive situations."

for a lot of my life people have come to me for advice or to vent and i was always proud of that. i thought i was good at it too. looking back, i kind of cringe. theres so much i didnt know. even just learning to validate for example. learning not to prescribe my own advice, and perhaps let the person come to revelations on their own. in some cases, learning to even avoid giving specific advice. i think most people here are empaths. the lessons from the relationship, and the actual lessons on the board can teach us so much about how to be a better friend and confidante, and romantic partner.

'Bottom line: this situation might have its own rationality"

it does. its kind of like learning a new language, but there is plenty of sense to it within the context of BPD or npd. you can, in other words, "make sense of the crazy". part of your psyche is hell bent on it anyway.

"and my fear of detaching from the outside world might come from some place else, not necessarily from the fact that i am learning about what happened to me, but it might still have to do with it, since i have isolated myself a lot with him and without him. partly because i saw the world through what perceived was his perspective and started disliking people for being boring or self-centered or superficial (everything he's accused me of as well)"

well, is this a pattern for you? i can definitely relate. im kind of a misanthrope. im also an introvert, and i can have a tendency to isolate, a tendency to be disappointed in others, and retreat, etc. many of us in these relationships let a lot of relationships go. in fact many find themselves in other states or countries with no friends or family nearby and no means to leave. you also may be describing  s. traits we take on from our disordered partners. this is important insight and useful questions to ask yourself. i think its a point very much worth exploring.

"not to mention, i learned what constitutes "abandonment" is really very broad" - do you mean for yourself or in your relationship? "

i mean the definition of abandonment and what qualifies as abandonment depression in general. from the book, the journey from abandonment to healing by susan anderson (recommended by bpdfamily):

"what is abandonment?

a feeling

a feeling of isolation within a relationship

an intense feeling of devastation when a relationship ends

an aloneness not by choice

an experience from childhood

a baby left on the doorstep

a divorce

a woman left by her husband of twenty years for another woman

a man being left by his fiancee for someone "more successful"

a mother leaving her children

a father leaving his children

a friend feeling deserted by a friend

a child whose pet dies

a little girl grieving over the death of her mother

a little boy wanting his mommy to come pick him up from nursery school

a child who feels replaced by the birth of another sibling

a child feeling restless due to his parent's emotional unavailability

a boy realizing that he is gay and anticipating the reaction of his parents and friends

a teenager feeling her heart is actually broken

a teenage boy afraid to approach the girl he loves

a woman who has raised now-grown children, feeling empty, as if she has been deserted

a child stricken with a serious illness watching his friends play while he is confined to a wheelchair or bed

a woman who has lost her job and with it her professional identity, financial security, and status

a man who has been put out to pasture by his company, as if he is obsolete

a dying woman who fears being abandoned by loved ones as much or more than she fears pain and death"

thats an awful lot of things that constitute "abandonment" some of them being things we might not normally think of. changing schools during childhood might be considered abandonment. rape would be considered abandonment. the fact is its not just borderlines that have a fear of abandonment, we all do. as i mentioned, exiting the womb is abandonment. when we realize we are individuals apart from our mother, we experience abandonment depression (something pwBPD and npd if im not mistaken fail to actually achieve and is the root of the disorder). when we experience abandonment, its a wound that can go very, very deep, all the way to childhood. that is part of why this entire experience is so very painful. it shakes us to our very core. but it also speaks to what you mentioned about accepting that you have/are experiencing trauma. its easy to think someone else has it worse, and they might. that doesnt take away from what youre experiencing. it felt incredibly validating for me to realize and accept that. sure we dont want to have a victim mentality, but we have all been through powerful stuff, and acknowledging that is healing. after my relationship ended i thought i just had a tough time with breakups. when i read stuff like the article on surviving a breakup with someone suffering with borderline personality disorder, and it had the subtitle, "Breaking Up Was Never this Hard" i felt deeply validated.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/surviving-break-when-your-partner-has-borderline-personality

"I just have had a random anxiety attack at work one day last week (10 minutes after he passed by me in his car) and a migraine the next day so I couldn't go to work, after he had passed by me in his car again the same day at night... .this is not the only pressure i am under, but i do actually think, that there is a strong and very immediate connection to him.

and, i am getting flashbacks. not so nice either and sometimes challenging, since they are not always of bad but also fun situations so that i forget the pain. but i am, on the other hand, still keeping stuff he said to me, to myself, cause i am to ashamed to tell anyone how he spoke to me."

i am four years out and still experience flashbacks. the good news is that they WILL at some point cease to be painful. i think in your case, its just more of that natural processing. youre remembering the relationship more for what it was, with some balance. all of our relationships were good and bad. many members report only being able to recall the good moments for a while. the flashbacks are simply a resurfacing of what we suppressed at the time, good or bad, and yes, we can suppress the good or bad.

you dont need to be ashamed to tell anyone how he spoke to you. but youre entitled to keep whatever you want to yourself, too. there are some things my ex said to me i wouldnt even be willing to share anonymously. if you think it would be helpful to share them here or with your therapist i encourage you to do so, if not, theres nothing wrong or unhealthy with keeping them to yourself.

"would you be able to elaborate a little bit more on what you mean by "loose identity" - the direction is kinda clear but i am still not 100% sure about it."

in fairness, im not either. borderlines and narcissists have an unstable sense of self, but it differs between the personality disorders. a borderline finds a "self" through attaching to another person. what im aiming at is that if you have an unstable sense of self, then the few things you combine to create an "identity" are more valuable to you than they might be to another. if someone wanted to make fun of me for being from texas, america, for being white, for speaking english, whatever, that wouldnt threaten or hurt me in the slightest. they are, none the less, part of my identity, but my personal identity is stronger than those mere things. i think it stands to reason that for someone with an unstable sense of self, any threat to the very loose identity they have built (which may include those things) threatens that unstable sense of self. its a threat, a wound, against them as a person. an attack against the very little identity they have, which is, in terms of personality, all they have. its also worth mentioning, and i might not be correct about this, that a narcissist may have a stronger, or at least observably stronger sense of self than a borderline. a narcissists personality is essentially a false self. a borderlines personality is essentially whoever they are attached to. all of us are capable of creating a false self, but it doesnt tend to define our personality where it does for a narcissist.

"and another story pops up, that might go into that direction and in which he told me that he thinks God actually speaks the language that is my mother tongue (he was fairly out of it during that moment and not ironic at all (which he can be) - some typical condition that usually came up when we had very close moments and in which he sometimes started to play insulting mind games that usually concluded in a breakup."

[once removed]

k i ran way over 15000 characters, so my reply overflowed into two or three:

yeah thats a fairly farfetched notion. personally i dont believe god speaks a human language. as far as the insulting mind games, i think borderlines and narcissists alike can display this behavior. my borderline ex had a way of making her friends feel really stupid and treating them as such, she didnt do it as much to me, but she did other, similar things. i think its more about them and their discomfort with themselves than us; maybe even their discomfort with us compared to themselves. with a borderline it may be a need to make you feel insecure or uncomfortable, or to test you; with a narcissist it may be more a need to take you down a peg.

"also topics that came up between us - he used to insult me a lot for where i am coming from, very twisted sometimes with no obvious connection to anything - he also thinks of women that they are manipulative and dishonest (which he didn't use so much against me, but talked about it a lot)"

yeah, it can be difficult for me to put into words, but i think its all the same thing. he doesnt truly know who he is, but he has a very, very strong sense of who he thinks he is, if hes a narcissist. in essence, that IS his personality. as far as nons go, even as far as myself, a lot of guys experience that whole "women are manipulative and dishonest" thing to varying extents at some point in their life. it is narcissistic. its a bandaid for rejection. i dont think a narcissist much realizes that if at all. they have ingrained attitudes about people, the opposite sex, those close to them, whatever, in general.

"sexuality was used by him as the final reason for his last breakup: he always told me how fascinatingly good our sex was and used to encourage me to tell him stories about me having sex with other women - then the last time i saw him, he told me that he thinks that i am a lesbian and that it won't work out with us for that reason - what a brilliant move of his wink i am still standing there like a duck in a thunderstorm, or so... ."

other females played a role in my "bedroom" with my ex as well. sex is a big thing for a narcissist or a borderline in several ways. it can be a hook. it can be part of their identity (my ex had low self esteem but considered herself sexy). youll find endless stories of the porn star type sex with their disordered partners. as far as im concerned, it seems reasonable that if you think very little of yourself, and fear a partner leaving, that youd get really really good at sex. if i had to guess it sounds like you indulged him in some of these stories, and as much as he wanted to hear them, it triggered his issues (for a borderline its more about the fear of abandonment, for a narcissist its more about the loss of feeling/being "special" but i think it could play out in very similar ways). my ex wanted to hear stories about me and other girls. it always made me uncomfortable in my gut, but i didnt want to deny her her fantasies either. i cant recall specifically, but ill bet you a fortune that after i indulged her, she tested me and acted out in multiple ways. frankly in ways i didnt even make a connection to at the time so definitely couldnt now. its almost about getting off on jealousy (ex practically said as much). did it make you feel uncomfortable on a gut level?

"" - amazing quality of his, always new what would hurt me the most. sometimes he even encouraged certain behavior in me (as ive mentioned before) to then slap me for it. "

in the context of a narcissist this is pretty simple. stand as your own person, be railed at for it. narcissists see others as an extension of themselves. the problem being a narcissist considers themselves perfect as they are, and no one, no friend or romantic partner, can live up to that.

"i can already see how it is getting easier and how i am more motivated to do things just because i want them and not because i think that he would like them. what helps me right now, is taking the damage more serious and give it some space and take decision according to it, like for example not to go to certain places... ."

like ive said, this process is yours, and youre entitled to go at it however you want. as far as the going certain places, doing certain things, there are two schools of thought. one is to desensitize yourself, to go to these places, do these thing that would trigger you, and that it will go away as a result. the other is avoid them, avoid all triggers, until youre ready, and that it will go away as a result. both are correct and i did a bit of both. both speak to what the given person is ready to do or not do. but "do things just because i want them and not because i think that he would like them" is the strongest part of that   this is about you. this is an inherently self centered process, and thats okay, its as it should be. you are rebuilding yourself, not someone else.

"ive read the links and am pretty sure that thats whats going on with me and has been for quite a while. now, after reading this, i, for the first time, think that i am allowed to feel that way, which is a big step."

you also mention migraines, anxiety attacks, long term anxiety, etc. this would be a good thing to see a doctor about. i can recommend a few supplements that helped me hugely in my process if you wish. i also saw a doctor and got on antidepressants. i had a few health issues that existed for a few years before my ex, and frankly treatment can be a long process, ive been at it for four years, so i encourage you to get on it.

but of course youre allowed to feel that way. youre allowed to feel however you feel. feelings arent wrong even if they arent necessarily rational. is the idea that youre not allowed to feel that way something you feel youve been taught in life?

"i am actually sharing your opinion on my therapist - i don't think that she knows a lot about pd's and not so much about the effect that  they can have on  people that are in rs's with those who suffer from them - and i need to think about, if talking to her, while everything is so acute right now, might not be enough (also i am here and i have you! which is an incredibly big help!) - on the other hand, does she work with trauma, depression and anxiety - so i might get helpful things out of it if i only see it for what it is and her for what she is good at."

its tricky and i want to tread very lightly. i dont want to second guess your therapist. but i do know finding the right therapist can be a process; many members go through a few before settling. of course a good therapist doesnt necessarily require a great deal of knowledge about pds, and like i said, they will keep the focus on you. im not sure whether that might require a great understanding of your particular pain, but you say she works with trauma, depression and anxiety, so she very well may have that. i think the question is how long have you seen her and do you feel youre making progress? do you feel validated?

"As to the idea of "mindful thinking" - it is a very helpful tool and i tried it out in the past - respectively made it my pattern with him, but couldn't always keep up with it - plus: would have needed more time to use it with him that i wasn't given - but it helps in daily live and even when he attacked me in an email or when he was giving me the silent treatment or disappeared - i would put my feelings aside, give it some time and only after ive went through all the stages of anger, frustration and pain i responded or approach him ... .one time, that i used it, he even apologized to me. so, yes! its great and makes me sad in the same time. "

personally i dont think im cut out for a BPD relationship. it would have been useful for me to learn all the tools and lessons at the time, but ultimately, the relationship wasnt for me. i dont want to be in a caretaking position or being my partners therapist. i assume youve read some on the staying board; the tools and lessons dont always work. you dont necessarily get a great amount of time to use the tools or make the relationship work. the rug can be pulled out from under you any time really. the staying members generally have accepted that.

for me, mindfulness is about detaching from my emotions and feelings, which is not the same as dissociating mind you. its about visualizing them. its about anticipating them, on some level. you feel the feelings, but they have less effect on you, because you see them, in a very similar way you would to a headache, or even say, the flu. if you caught the flu, and you got really sick, you would not be surprised by any of your symptoms. youd still be effected by them, but they wouldnt drive you crazy, you presumably wouldnt wonder if you were dying, or something like that. you also know, even at your worst, that the symptoms will pass, that you will feel better. thats mindfulness. with mindfulness, your feelings have less effect on you. reading the stories on this board can contribute to mindfulness. you can see what others go through at various stages. so if it happens to you, its not a huge surprise when it does. feelings are powerful, powerful things, but they dont control us. feelings are not fact. mindfulness also can teach us to pay a different kind of attention to our feelings; to follow them, to trace them, to see where theyre really coming from. they can often mask themselves. for example, "i feel sad". okay. "why do i feel sad?". "where is this sadness coming from?". "i feel sad because i feel rejected." okay. rejection is a normal part of life, it sucks, but "why does the wound seem to linger?" its like a ball of yarn. you can take it pretty far. "im sensitive to rejection." okay. most people are. does the rejection remind you of any other times youve felt rejected? "YES. it reminds me of this one time!" okay, good. "how did you feel at that time? how do you feel they compare?". by that point youve already made the connection and that facilitates healing. for me, the very concept of "detaching" produced a really anxiety inducing visual of painfully ripping myself apart from another person. for all the work ahead of us, sometimes our feelings and thoughts are more painful than they actually need to be. i worked through it, i reframed a few thoughts, and i saw detachment as a great thing, a goal, and like the five stages of detachment to the right of your screen, ultimately, as freedom. like ive said, mindfulness is one of the greatest things i ever achieved from my breakup, and it will be a valuable tool for the entirety of the rest of my life.

"i would put my feelings aside, give it some time and only after ive went through all the stages of anger, frustration and pain i responded or approach him ... .one time, that i used it, he even apologized to me. so, yes! its great and makes me sad in the same time."

putting your feelings aside, or putting another persons feelings or being ahead of you, is not necessarily mindfulness, just thought suppression, which can compound things as i think youve seen. that stuff will resurface. mindfulness does involve feeling your feelings, acknowledging them, validating them, leaning into them, getting to the bottom of them, but still, at the end of the day, realizing that they are just feelings. a headache is real. you dont and cant ignore it. but you know without thinking, its not going to kill you. youre not sitting there freaking out as if its the first time youve ever experienced one. just to give you an example, lets say i feel sad. i dont necessarily play therapist with myself and ask myself these things (although i encourage you to start out doing so), i just observe the thought rather than go crazy about it. im aware of it. it is what it is. not everyone actually has that awareness, so feeling sad may drive them to act out accordingly. for me its a o=pain in the butt, but a part of life, and likely based on something other than what im thinking about.

im glad youre back and continuing to use these boards. ive read in another thread that many members leave within their first five posts, often because theyre scared off. thats what i mean by suggesting you have an advantage. someone has told you to focus on yourself, youve done it, and youve grown as a result. as far as i can tell, you really are on the right track. theres no telling how long or short it will take, but keeping at it will get you there, i promise

by the way. these repeated drive bys on his part, do you sense they might be on purpose or just by proximity?

[Susan Sunday]

" i ran way over 15000 characters, so my reply overflowed into two or three:" Me too  

here we go:

"somewhere between subconsciously and consciously ive looked for romantic partners and friends that i could connect with based on our mutual issues and some kind of mutual understanding."

I have done and not done it in the past, so it is not necessarily a very strong pattern of mine in relationships and I have been with people that were very different from me. I also know, that it is healthier for me not to be in a symbiotic relationship and that they are usually more stable and I am more stable in them, but I am obviously also sometimes looking for instability (or more) – those "stable" relationships usually make me feel as if I need to emancipate myself from them or as if I have grown out of them (after some years) – which would probably point to some kind of parental issue here as well.  with him, I remember that I've been fascinated by how detached he seemed to the world and that this might have mirrored very concrete feelings that I have had short after I  got here, and which are as well very familiar childhood feelings of alienation that I remember I've experienced and that I also know where they are coming from. There was some farawayness in his whole appearance that attracted me very much – but this doesn’t yet explain what kept me in the relationship … I didn’t fall for him, because of his abusive behavior, but I stayed because of it, also because he answered some of my (unhealthy) needs.  As to the most of them, I didn’t even know that I had them, like you are describing it as well.

"part of therapy is exploring trauma from our past, connecting with our lonely child, and reprocessing it by syncing the lonely childs feelings with our adult experience and understanding, thus working through it."

This kind of work is opening many of those childhood wounds all over again and even though I wish I could just go on without looking at them to closely I can't because having met him and being in this relationship doesn’t let me go on. What leads exactly to your point:

"that applies in conjunction with these relationships; they opened up wounds that existed a long time before we met our partners."

"i just hope you realize what a powerful advantage this is, and how much its going to serve you in the long run."

I am still not fully there, but I am already sensing it! I guess I am still too afraid that I will never have another relationship in my life, where I could put into use, what I am now learning about myself. 

"at the time, i was stunned that in the context of a personality disorder, one could profile a relationship with that person, the kinds of people that become involved in those relationships, and even the typical kinds of wounds suffered."

I am still stunned!

"and yes, suddenly everything youve been through feels way less personal."

Its such an important step – but you also have to accept it – the depersonalization I mean. It is painful in itself and means detachment and reflecting your own role in all that  – but it is a friendly offer for detachment and it was the first  step for me to come back to myself and trust myself again.     

"part of your psyche is hell bent on it anyway."

True, it feels as if I don’t have much of a choice.

"well, is this a pattern for you? i can definitely relate. im kind of a misanthrope. im also an introvert, and i can have a tendency to isolate, a tendency to be disappointed in others, and retreat, etc."

Yes, I guess it would be safe for me to say that those are patterns of mine. I have always in times been misanthrope  - sometimes introverted – isolated myself from majorities or have been disappointed in others (the world or friends)  – but in the same time I can be a very social person, outgoing and entertaining and like it a lot to have people around me. Its funny, but I am sure that not a lot of people that know me, would describe me as introverted or with a tendency to isolate myself – its more a basic feeling inside of me. But usually, when I am not having such a good time, when I am being depressed or so – I would rather not reach out to people but disappear a bit.

"you also may be describing   s. traits we take on from our disordered partners. this is important insight and useful questions to ask yourself. i think its a point very much worth exploring."

To some extend it did that. And I also looked at myself and at the world through his parameters and kinda made him my superego. I could hardly eat anything that I didn't know he would approve of (he eats very healthy and food was always a topic) and what I did (creatively, socially, professionally) I kinda did for his sake. You are right! It is worth to take a deeper look into this and ask what I've been missing, so essentially here, that I gave him that much space.

I have two guesses:

1.   I have never had a strong parental figure in my life that I've actually had to achieve something for – and always had a tendency to replace typical superego figures from my childhood with strong minded male figures in my life – either romantic or not –as long as they weren't disordered it gave me security and space - but not in this case.

2.   I had a wish to disappear, to be merged in someone and I wanted someone to take over, because I was overwhelmed by the situation that I was in.

…

Since his parameters and moods changed so frequently and unexpected I had a hard time knowing what he liked and disliked – so I always went through all the options, when it came to judging my own actions. For example just sending him a text message could make me extremely nervous – I would usually not calm down till I received an answer.

the other day, I was really brave and went through our old text messages. I was scared to do so, cause I didn’t wanna read all my stupid messages. But guess what – I didn't even find them stupid, but perfectly ok. Not pushy, not aggressive, not needy, not boring, not despaired. Compared to how people usually communicate I think I had mastered my communication with him (walking on eggshells again?).  now, with all the knowledge that I have gained in the past weeks, I am anyways reading them very different.

[Susan Sunday]

no. 2

" after my relationship ended i thought i just had a tough time with breakups."

I was just walking around asking myself, "why is this so difficult?" It just didn’t make sense to me and I never felt that way before! So, I exactly know what you are talking about.

"many members report only being able to recall the good moments for a while."

This happened to me too, basically after all our breakups – only this time was different.

" i think it stands to reason that for someone with an unstable sense of self, any threat to the very loose identity they have built (which may include those things) threatens that unstable sense of self. its a threat, a wound, against them as a person."

That is very helpful  – and very essential to understand – I always wondered how he could possibly let everything that came from other people, come so close to him and shake his whole foundation. But if for example not eating salt is already the foundation itself, than it makes sense to me, why he can feel so deeply disappointed and even insulted by his parents still eating salt and not reassuring him of his identity. if that makes sense?

" its also worth mentioning, and i might not be correct about this, that a narcissist may have a stronger, or at least observably stronger sense of self than a borderline. a narcissists personality is essentially a false self. a borderlines personality is essentially whoever they are attached to. all of us are capable of creating a false self, but it doesnt tend to define our personality where it does for a narcissist."

I saw him showing both of those structures of personality – in different times – as respond to different kind of pressures – here I think that almost everything is perceived by him as some kind of pressure (at least it seems to me like that retrospectively) – I believe that he shows very typical BPD and npd traits and is switching between them a lot – if that makes any sense.

" if i had to guess it sounds like you indulged him in some of these stories, and as much as he wanted to hear them, it triggered his issues (for a borderline its more about the fear of abandonment, for a narcissist its more about the loss of feeling/being "special" but i think it could play out in very similar ways). my ex wanted to hear stories about me and other girls. it always made me uncomfortable in my gut, but i didnt want to deny her fantasies either.i cant recall specifically, but ill bet you a fortune that after i indulged her, she tested me and   multiple ways. frankly in ways i didnt even make a connection to at the time so definitely couldnt now. its almost about getting off on jealousy (ex practically said as much). "

Thank you for sharing this. I would have never guessed that females are doing the same thing – but it makes sense anyways – sexuality triggers existential fears - engulfment and abandonment – it thing for everyone, also nons. And yes I indulged him – in the beginning I liked how it was getting him off – later he became kinda obsessive on the topic and pushy and it didn’t feel like a fun game anymore, but I still didn't wanna deny his fantasies, kind of like you are describing it.

"did it make you feel uncomfortable on a gut level?"

Yes it did. I guess I sensed how he at one point used it to disconnect or detach from me or tried to un-create closeness – which now seems kinda logical to me. Its as if he was trying to increase the intensity of potentially triggering feelings in order to find a reason to disconnect.

" the problem being a narcissist considers themselves perfect as they are, and no one, no friend or romantic partner, can live up to that." – yup. Paired with me being an overcritical person to myself – we were really hiding it off!  

" like ive said, this process is yours, and youre entitled to go at it however you want. as far as the going certain places, doing certain things, there are two schools of thought. one is to desensitize yourself, to go to these places, do these thing that would trigger you, and that it will go away as a result. the other is avoid them, avoid all triggers, until youre ready, and that it will go away as a result. both are correct and i did a bit of both."

Me too, I mean: doing both. Some places, I just understood are better to avoid – others I feel like going there for normalization.

" personally i dont think im cut out for a BPD relationship. it would have been useful for me to learn all the tools and lessons at the time, but ultimately, the relationship wasnt for me. i dont want to be in a caretaking position or being my partners therapist."

Me neither – I want to have an equal relationship with someone who can see me and is capable of a healthy and stable connection.

Thanks a lot for all that you've explained about mindful thinking – I guess there is a lot for me to learn and I will probably have some more questions about it in the future.

" as far as i can tell, you really are on the right track. theres no telling how long or short it will take, but keeping at it will get you there, i promise" – you've done a lot for me to stay and I am really glad we've started this conversation and gave it the chance to become deeper and broader – I could only do it cause I am trusting you and because I am hoping for other people to read some of our discussion so they can find help for themselves. Thank you for all the energy you are putting into this! Really, thank you!

Ah, and I had another panic attack and am considering to see someone for that. Will keep you posted.

" by the way. these repeated drive bys on his part, do you sense they might be on purpose or just by proximity?"

Well, it is hard to say. This time it felt more coincidental – at other times in the past I sensed different and I know, that if he would want me to see him, I would see him. Last two times I ran into him on the street, I am pretty sure weren’t coincidental – the first time, was a day after he had send me this email, saying how much I was a burden to him. I was standing on one side of a crossroad and then saw him wandering towards me, super casual as if it was the most normal thing in the world (never happened before btw.) - two weeks later same day same hour – same thing – only this time he ran away from me the second he realized that I saw him – so I would understand that he was running  away from me - I am usually heading to my bus at that hour. But it never happened again.   

Do you think those are power games or poor attempts to initiate contact?

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"I also know, that it is healthier for me not to be in a symbiotic relationship and that they are usually more stable and I am more stable in them, but I am obviously also sometimes looking for instability (or more) – those "stable" relationships usually make me feel as if I need to emancipate myself from them or as if I have grown out of them (after some years) – which would probably point to some kind of parental issue here as well."

more great self awareness. as far as parental issues, its evident to me the majority of members here feel issues directly tied to childhood/their parents led them/kept them in these relationships, as well as kinda defined a lot of the pain they were going through, so definitely a great thing to get to the bottom of.

"There was some farawayness in his whole appearance that attracted me very much – but this doesn’t yet explain what kept me in the relationship … I didn’t fall for him, because of his abusive behavior, but I stayed because of it, also because he answered some of my (unhealthy) needs.  As to the most of them, I didn’t even know that I had them, like you are describing it as well."

both narcissists and borderlines can be very very attractive personalities. abusive relationships have a way of conditioning people to more abuse. when i read sentiments like "a healthy person would walk at the first sign of abuse" i really dont think its that simple. abusive relationships dont start out abusive, usually. and its usually slowly if subtly introduced, and its not like it happens on x day or time of the week. victims by that point usually describe their partner something along the lines of "he/she has some really bad anger sometimes, but he/shes not that bad or he/she is mostly really great." you walk on eggshells, you lose yourself, you may be isolated, it eventually feels impossible to leave, and you feel tremendous guilt over the idea. and frankly many people that end up in abusive relationships come from one of two perspectives: they dont have a firm grasp on what constitutes abuse, or theyre very used to it, and its normal, even attractive.

"This kind of work is opening many of those childhood wounds all over again and even though I wish I could just go on without looking at them to closely I can't because having met him and being in this relationship doesn’t let me go on. What leads exactly to your point:"

yeah, its intensely painful stuff and takes great courage to face. im of the opinion healing requires it. that cliche of "gotta go through hell to get to heaven". but fortunately thats a great motivator. if i told you you win a million bucks at the end, that might make it easier, but to me its the emotional equivalent.

"I am still not fully there, but I am already sensing it! I guess I am still too afraid that I will never have another relationship in my life, where I could put into use, what I am now learning about myself."

you might not necessarily do it in the ways youre imagining (although in several cases you might). this process may make you more emotionally available and attractive to an otherwise "healthy" person in which case what youve learned will come a bit more naturally. for example, validation is a great skill, and i try to use it all the time on this board, but its not my lifes cause like it would be if i were in a BPD relationship. in my friendships, though im somewhat conscious in my practice of it, it feels more like just being polite. its also better than being invalidating without realizing it. youll use some of it. some of it is just about you and your healing.

"Its such an important step – but you also have to accept it – the depersonalization I mean. It is painful in itself and means detachment and reflecting your own role in all that  – but it is a friendly offer for detachment and it was the first  step for me to come back to myself and trust myself again."

i agree. one alternative is to paint your ex black. i certainly dont recommend that, but it happens, and i understand it. i guess i was just fortunate in that realizing it wasnt personal actually made me feel better about myself, instead of the idea that i was some sucker who fell for a total sham, or that i was used, or whatever else. and it makes a lot of space for compassion and empathy. its a sign of emotional maturity.

"Yes, I guess it would be safe for me to say that those are patterns of mine. I have always in times been misanthrope  - sometimes introverted – isolated myself from majorities or have been disappointed in others (the world or friends)  – but in the same time I can be a very social person, outgoing and entertaining and like it a lot to have people around me. Its funny, but I am sure that not a lot of people that know me, would describe me as introverted or with a tendency to isolate myself – its more a basic feeling inside of me. But usually, when I am not having such a good time, when I am being depressed or so – I would rather not reach out to people but disappear a bit."

sure, i can relate. theres a lot of common misconceptions about introverts. depending on who im around, i can be very extroverted. my pastor declared himself an introvert. the BPD experience made me want to be a bit more extroverted, and really fill my life up with good friends, to the point where id look at a potential relationship and ask whether it was going to add to my life, whether i had time for it, or if its gonna be a drain, or a waste of time. whereas before id typically fall for whoever liked me, or for that matter, couldnt make up their mind about me. i isolate too when i get depressed, but ive learned to reach out to a validating, comforting source, more than before. these attitudes and approaches arent necessarily "wrong" unless we start deciding they might be and want to change or balance them.

"To some extend it did that. And I also looked at myself and at the world through his parameters and kinda made him my superego. I could hardly eat anything that I didn't know he would approve of (he eats very healthy and food was always a topic) and what I did (creatively, socially, professionally) I kinda did for his sake. You are right! It is worth to take a deeper look into this and ask what I've been missing, so essentially here, that I gave him that much space.

I have two guesses:

1.   I have never had a strong parental figure in my life that I've actually had to achieve something for – and always had a tendency to replace typical superego figures from my childhood with strong minded male figures in my life – either romantic or not –as long as they weren't disordered it gave me security and space - but not in this case.

2.   I had a wish to disappear, to be merged in someone and I wanted someone to take over, because I was overwhelmed by the situation that I was in.

…

Since his parameters and moods changed so frequently and unexpected I had a hard time knowing what he liked and disliked – so I always went through all the options, when it came to judging my own actions. For example just sending him a text message could make me extremely nervous – I would usually not calm down till I received an answer.

the other day, I was really brave and went through our old text messages. I was scared to do so, cause I didn’t wanna read all my stupid messages. But guess what – I didn't even find them stupid, but perfectly ok. Not pushy, not aggressive, not needy, not boring, not despaired. Compared to how people usually communicate I think I had mastered my communication with him (walking on eggshells again?).  now, with all the knowledge that I have gained in the past weeks, I am anyways reading them very different."

its also very easy to become preoccupied with a disordered person and their needs, their moods, etc. a full time job, really. have you read up on codependency? it may or may not apply to you (its not a label im fully comfortable with) but i think all of us can identify with it a great deal. it sounds like as far as number one and two it was a bit of both. im familiar with the extreme nervousness with texts/emails/instant messages etc, although in my case that applied to a relationship before the BPDex. with my BPDex i was a bit closer to being in your partners shoes. (unconsciously) i wanted someone who would get and mold their personality after me, mirror me, move into "my world". consciously i knew such a thing was unhealthy. in the future i want to love my partner for the autonomous individual that they are, with all their likes, loves, hates, personality, etc and hope they do the same. as for reading the text messages, if you found it helpful, great. for some its nothing but trouble. i read mine, although i didnt have a ton cause id just switched phones. it was helpful. and although youre feeling a great deal of anxiety, its probably a different kind of anxiety, you can go back and read these things more objectively, without the anxiety and overanalyzing you might have felt at the time.

think im gonna hit the 15000 character limit so gonna start a new reply.

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" " after my relationship ended i thought i just had a tough time with breakups."

I was just walking around asking myself, "why is this so difficult?" It just didn’t make sense to me and I never felt that way before! So, I exactly know what you are talking about."

yeah, and on top of that, it felt wrong to me at the time, like something was wrong with me, that i should either feel hatred or nothing at all, but certainly not what i was feeling. that can be tricky, and one may try even harder at painting their ex black without dealing with their hurt. its the kind of thing i mean when i refer to the advantage you have. the more stories on here you read, youll see there are some further ahead, some further behind, and the many different paths members have taken. i think in virtually everyones case, accepting their feelings, realizing its okay to feel them and that they do feel them, has an indescribably powerful and validating effect. its the first step of the five stages of detachment to the right.

"That is very helpful  – and very essential to understand – I always wondered how he could possibly let everything that came from other people, come so close to him and shake his whole foundation. But if for example not eating salt is already the foundation itself, than it makes sense to me, why he can feel so deeply disappointed and even insulted by his parents still eating salt and not reassuring him of his identity. if that makes sense?"

i was just reading this link yesterday or the day before and wanted to share it. i thought it spoke to the party incident you referred to in your other thread, and part of what you just stated.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167069

in particular, "React to criticism with rage, shame, or humiliation" i think pretty well explains it, although id add the caveat "react to perceived criticism".

and yes, your suggestion makes plenty of sense, especially if your foundation is very weak. either unfortunately or fortunately, this puts a spotlight on our own foundations too, which youve done a great job exploring.

"I saw him showing both of those structures of personality – in different times – as respond to different kind of pressures – here I think that almost everything is perceived by him as some kind of pressure (at least it seems to me like that retrospectively) – I believe that he shows very typical BPD and npd traits and is switching between them a lot – if that makes any sense."

yeah i hope im not putting too much focus on the npd aspects, i think that just happens to be the majority of the behavior im responding to/labeling. you wanta elaborate on the BPD behaviors? it can be difficult for me to imagine how that must work, but i imagine its pretty exhausting.

"Thank you for sharing this. I would have never guessed that females are doing the same thing – but it makes sense anyways – sexuality triggers existential fears - engulfment and abandonment – it thing for everyone, also nons. And yes I indulged him – in the beginning I liked how it was getting him off – later he became kinda obsessive on the topic and pushy and it didn’t feel like a fun game anymore, but I still didn't wanna deny his fantasies, kind of like you are describing it."

youre right abandonment and engulfment are a thing for everyone, and sure females are doing the same thing. i did some of it myself, although it wasnt exactly the same, or about jealousy.

"Yes it did. I guess I sensed how he at one point used it to disconnect or detach from me or tried to un-create closeness – which now seems kinda logical to me. Its as if he was trying to increase the intensity of potentially triggering feelings in order to find a reason to disconnect."

it made me uncomfortable too, but as i mentioned i still cant recall very much about how she might have reacted or responded under the surface. that second sentence there of yours probably describes whats going on there in a much better way than i could, and i think youre probably very right about it. it all points out a need to clarify our boundaries and values in the bedroom. i wont judge indulging these kind of fantasies as "wrong" except that if we personally felt uncomfortable, it may have been wrong for us, or at least we need to clarify it.

"Me neither – I want to have an equal relationship with someone who can see me and is capable of a healthy and stable connection."  i think we are in agreement there.

"Thanks a lot for all that you've explained about mindful thinking – I guess there is a lot for me to learn and I will probably have some more questions about it in the future."

feel free. ill warn you im not an expert, but i can definitely pool some good resources.

"you've done a lot for me to stay and I am really glad we've started this conversation and gave it the chance to become deeper and broader – I could only do it cause I am trusting you and because I am hoping for other people to read some of our discussion so they can find help for themselves. Thank you for all the energy you are putting into this! Really, thank you!"

im thrilled to hear that and ill continue to do my best. as i write this, this post has 614 views, so somebody is getting something out of it. i think its your attitude that makes you very easy to work at this with. youre way ahead of where i was at this point, and thats both highly useful to you, and something i have an easier time connecting with. youve done incredible work.

":)o you think those are power games or poor attempts to initiate contact?"

like you said, its hard to say. go with your gut on this one, because as long as youre not clinging to the idea that its deliberate (you dont seem to be) it doesnt much matter. with the close proximity its possible that some is coincidence and some isnt, and it sounds like your gut is suggesting that. id encourage you to read other stories on the matter. i know many pwBPD may display stalking behaviors (i dont know as much about npd on that) and the reasons vary. one reason is a lack of object constancy. i dont know if thats relevant, or if its relevant to npd. theres a ton of possibilities. so to answer your specific question, it could be both, or neither. you might elaborate, but i think your gut is more reliable on this than i am.