Realising he didn't love me

[Depression = 72% of members]

I seem to switch between the "detaching" and "undecided" board here. My head really wants me to move on and forget about him, but every so often I'm overwhelmed and want to try again. I do think he puts feelers out and keeps an eye on what I'm doing, and I think he uses my friend as well as some social media to pass information to me. That is like a hook that keeps me wondering "what if". It keeps me confused and, at times, hopeful.

Anyway, I gave myself a big talking to recently, and came to some realisations. Before now, I've read that the key to moving on from people with personality disorders is to accept that your partner didn't really love you. I've never believed that - I know he loved and he loved strongly. What's helped me in the last week is the final realisation that yes, he did love strongly, but whoever he loved, it wasn't me.

My ex had a real White Knight syndrome. He was obsessed with superheros, and saw life as a superhero film - the world was a place neatly split into black and white; of good and evil. He gained his sense of self-esteem by being able to rescue people. In the past he'd been a police officer, he'd been a security guard, he'd trained in high-level MMA. It was all to feel invincible and to be able to protect other people, mainly women, who he saw as in need of protection. One of the things that would make him split me black is if I turned that protection down.

It reminded me suddenly of the medieval knights with their code of Chivalry, and the actual misogyny that's embedded in that, even though it looks like kindness. Women are either Angels or they are Whores - there is no in between. In the beginning I was his Angel. That was even his pet name for me. He put me on that pedestal and insisted I stay there. And when I fell, what with being an actual human and everything, I couldn't just be a woman with flaws and weaknesses - if I wasn't the Angel I had to be the Whore. And so I was accused of infidelity, of manipulation, of flirting with unknown people online, of not treating him with enough respect. He'd be furious with me for deceiving him into thinking I was someone else Then when he split me again, I was straight back to being the Angel, worthy of love, begging my forgiveness, trying to rescue me and pedestal me again. And the cycles went on and on and on.

And so recently I realised: I was never appreciated or loved for being me. Sure, he loved the Angel, he really did. He saw the Angel as his saviour, in many ways. But although I remember asking him to see the real me - the bundle of good and bad characteristics that I am, that make up *me*, he outright refused. He said "you might not see what you are, but I do. Sorry you have to walk to earth with us mere mortals, but that's what you are". The idealisation was every bit as bad and as abusive as the devaluation - it might have *felt* better, but it was still a refusal to see and accept me for who I am. In that way, idealisation *is* a kind of devaluation.

And so I think a big turning point for me has been the realisation that yes, he did love, and perhaps he did love what he categorised as the good things about me. But you can't split people into good and bad characteristics - in order to love a person, you have to love the whole. And he couldn't even see me as a whole, let alone love what that meant. He loved the Angel. He didn't love *me*.

This is what might be what finally stops the cognitive dissonance, and helps me to move on.

[Suspicious1]

I seem to switch between the "detaching" and "undecided" board here. My head really wants me to move on and forget about him, but every so often I'm overwhelmed and want to try again. I do think he puts feelers out and keeps an eye on what I'm doing, and I think he uses my friend as well as some social media to pass information to me. That is like a hook that keeps me wondering "what if". It keeps me confused and, at times, hopeful.

Anyway, I gave myself a big talking to recently, and came to some realisations. Before now, I've read that the key to moving on from people with personality disorders is to accept that your partner didn't really love you. I've never believed that - I know he loved and he loved strongly. What's helped me in the last week is the final realisation that yes, he did love strongly, but whoever he loved, it wasn't me.

My ex had a real White Knight syndrome. He was obsessed with superheros, and saw life as a superhero film - the world was a place neatly split into black and white; of good and evil. He gained his sense of self-esteem by being able to rescue people. In the past he'd been a police officer, he'd been a security guard, he'd trained in high-level MMA. It was all to feel invincible and to be able to protect other people, mainly women, who he saw as in need of protection. One of the things that would make him split me black is if I turned that protection down.

It reminded me suddenly of the medieval knights with their code of Chivalry, and the actual misogyny that's embedded in that, even though it looks like kindness. Women are either Angels or they are Whores - there is no in between. In the beginning I was his Angel. That was even his pet name for me. He put me on that pedestal and insisted I stay there. And when I fell, what with being an actual human and everything, I couldn't just be a woman with flaws and weaknesses - if I wasn't the Angel I had to be the Whore. And so I was accused of infidelity, of manipulation, of flirting with unknown people online, of not treating him with enough respect. He'd be furious with me for deceiving him into thinking I was someone else Then when he split me again, I was straight back to being the Angel, worthy of love, begging my forgiveness, trying to rescue me and pedestal me again. And the cycles went on and on and on.

And so recently I realised: I was never appreciated or loved for being me. Sure, he loved the Angel, he really did. He saw the Angel as his saviour, in many ways. But although I remember asking him to see the real me - the bundle of good and bad characteristics that I am, that make up *me*, he outright refused. He said "you might not see what you are, but I do. Sorry you have to walk to earth with us mere mortals, but that's what you are". The idealisation was every bit as bad and as abusive as the devaluation - it might have *felt* better, but it was still a refusal to see and accept me for who I am. In that way, idealisation *is* a kind of devaluation.

And so I think a big turning point for me has been the realisation that yes, he did love, and perhaps he did love what he categorised as the good things about me. But you can't split people into good and bad characteristics - in order to love a person, you have to love the whole. And he couldn't even see me as a whole, let alone love what that meant. He loved the Angel. He didn't love *me*.

This is what might be what finally stops the cognitive dissonance, and helps me to move on.

[Sadly]

Well done, you have just exactly describe how it was for me too and reading this has helped me enormously. I will read it many times I am sure when I am wobbling and need strength. Thank you 

[SummerStorm]

The idealisation was every bit as bad and as abusive as the devaluation - it might have *felt* better, but it was still a refusal to see and accept me for who I am. In that way, idealisation *is* a kind of devaluation.

It really, really is.  In many ways, idealization is more dangerous than devaluation.  In the beginning of any relationship, we idealize the other person to some extent, but we don't see the other person as "perfect."  Think about when you hear a person talking about a first date that he/she went on: "Yeah, he was really cute and polite, but he did talk about his job a lot."  That guy talking about his job isn't a deal breaker, but it did prevent the woman from seeing him as the best man who ever lived.  And, in my opinion, that is very healthy. 

On the other hand, this is why a relationship with a pwBPD isn't healthy.  The pwBPD sees us as perfect from day one, and so it's only a matter of time before everything comes crashing down.  I said to mine several times, "Stop telling me I'm perfect.  Stop comparing me to other people.  I'm not perfect.  I'm sorry, but I'm just not." 

At the end, if I were to have asked my former friend BPD what she liked about me, she probably would have given me a blank stare.  If I would have asked what she didn't like about me, she would have given me an hour long diatribe.  What changed in the few weeks between her saying I'm "perfect" and her saying I'm "poison"?  I asked for more than she was capable of giving.  I tried to talk to her like an adult.  I started questioning her actions.  I stopped giving in to her.  I stopped placating her all the time.     

[Sadly]

It's heart breaking isn't it. My sort of ex had come out of a 21 year relationship and some very bad times although I realise now the majority of the trouble would have been caused by him. to be honest his ex partner doesn't sound that stable and his 17 yr old son has bad problems and cuts himself.

for the first time in months he was happy and laughed again. I was his everything and he also filled a need in me, I recognise that. We couldn't have been closer and his family thanked me so much for the change in him.

Now it all lies in ruins around my feet. He is using me still, I am letting him up to a point and am so desperately sad all the time, gut wrenching pain and tears for something that wasn't real. They call it love but it isn't anything I recognise. xx

[SummerStorm]

Now it all lies in ruins around my feet. He is using me still, I am letting him up to a point and am so desperately sad all the time, gut wrenching pain and tears for something that wasn't real. They call it love but it isn't anything I recognise. xx

Mine only ever wanted me to tell her how sexy she is.  I called her beautiful once, and she cried and told me to never call her that again.  It's like she just kept me around to give her validation about how sexually appealing she is. 

She was a master at manipulating just enough so that things slid right past me.  She said, "I'm supposed to move the rest of my stuff into my boyfriend's place this weekend, but I've been delaying it because I don't want to."  I said, "Well, we could store some of it at my house, until we move in together."  She replied, "We can talk about that tomorrow, my love."  Well, guess what?  That conversation never happened because she never had any intention of living with me. 

She wanted to see how far I would take things.  So, she said, "I love you" and told me I'm "the one."  She wanted to see if I would get to a place where I said the same and was willing to buy a house and live with her.  But as soon as she realized I was, she said, "Oh, s___t.  She really IS serious!  I better put a stop to this."  I used to think it was her fear of engulfment kicking in, but I know now that she was just playing with me.

[Pretty Woman]

I was idealized as "the one". The gal she was going to marry. She was telling her ex this after knowing me a month.

Now she is telling the same thing to the same ex about the new gal.

History repeating.

[klacey3]

Its awful... I actually made a thread earlier about the saddest thing and I mentioned the realisation that it wasnt love for them.

His love was about need. When i didnt fulfill all his needs anymore and wanted my needs met he became nasty... manipulative... guilt tripping. Its the worst feeling know the love I had for him he didnt have for me. I could have been anyone...

[SummerStorm]

Its awful... I actually made a thread earlier about the saddest thing and I mentioned the realisation that it wasnt love for them.

His love was about need. When i didnt fulfill all his needs anymore and wanted my needs met he became nasty... manipulative... guilt tripping. Its the worst feeling know the love I had for him he didnt have for me. I could have been anyone...

Mine went cold as soon as I told her I was done.  I should have realized much sooner that she was just using me and that all of the things she said to me were just lies and manipulation.  Days after she told me that we would never be together and that her boyfriend was "everything" and one day after she raged at me at work, she texted me and asked if she could stay over at my house two nights later (implying sex).  This was preceded by her trying to get me to tell her that I wanted her.  She was convinced that her "bad girl" appeal was irresistible.  I didn't engage, told her that I was done with that part of our relationship, and she ignored me for the rest of the day.  She needed someone to tell her that she was sexy when her boyfriend wasn't around, and as soon as I wasn't willing to do that anymore, she immediately started to devalue me.

[Michelle27]

I now realize his love for me was never real.  It was mirroring the kind of love I wanted and designed to be used to get what he wanted from me.  This realization is making the healing process go much easier than it would if I thought his love was real.  The many lies he told are becoming unraveled and the only regret I have is that I didn't listen to my gut when things didn't add up.  I'm stronger now and wiser and will never lose the perspective that I did.  I'm also grateful for the lessons I learned and the strength I gained having gone through this. 

[Skip]

And so recently I realised: I was never appreciated or loved for being me. Sure, he loved the Angel, he really did. He saw the Angel as his saviour, in many ways. But although I remember asking him to see the real me - the bundle of good and bad characteristics that I am, that make up *me*, he outright refused.

This is a hard conversation to have with ourselves. To some extent, we did the same.

I think if the person genuinely loved us as they love (with all it splendor and brokeness) and we genuinely loved them as we love (with all it splendor and brokeness), its probably fair to see this is love, both ways.  When we start picking apart the healthiness of that love, maybe we are really saying that we have very different values or expectations.

Not being known in a relationship is about intimacy.  Many of these relationships lack true intimacy.  Lack true intimacy tends to go both ways.

Just some thoughts.

Hard topic, for sure.

[Suspicious1]

Skip, yes, I agree. I think the trouble with establishing whether or not one was loved, is that you have to start with defining what love is and that's notoriously difficult. With sociopathy, for example, it's sometimes stated that they are unable to love, which is a massive, wild, sweeping statement to make. People have their own ways of loving.

I guess the conclusion I've come to is not that he didn't love. The emphasis, as I put in the thread title, is on the "me". He loved for sure, but he didn't love me, the real me, the real person. He loved part of me. And like anyone else, I can't be split up into characteristics. It was the chosen characteristics he loved, not the person.

[Skip]

Did you do the same?

[antelope]

took me a while to realize that I truly didn't love her either... .

I arrived at this fact/conclusion upon the very brutal realization that I really didn't know her (almost at all) throughout our 3 years together... .

I know about her in all her BPD behavior, but as a person, I actually knew very little, as the question of 'who are you (her)?' plagued me for so long... .

a question you may want to ask yourself in the aftermath is: how would you describe your ex (without ascribing any BPD traits to your description)?  what would you say about her personality and character, w/o attaching the BPD symptoms to it?

their chameleon lifestyles, their lying and secrecy, as well as their manipulation almost ensure that you will never get a real definitive answer to any of those questions... .and neither will they

how can you really love or hate (or anything in between) a stranger? 

[Sadly]

how can you really love or hate (or anything in between) a stranger?

I don't know, but I do love him, or the not him or whoever he may or may not be. Sounds like rubbish but I know what I mean. Have just posted more of my story on L3, what a pathetic person I sound yet I love him.

[SummerStorm]

antelope,

You bring up such a good point, and I have a great example of this.  My former friend BPD once said to me, "If I ever get married, you can plan it for me because you'll know exactly what I'll want."

I later thought about it and came up with the following theme: Pokemon mixed with Doctor Who, with clothing courtesy of Game of Thrones.  Vows could be passages from Alice in Wonderland.

That's it.  That's all I knew.  I hadn't the slightest idea what music she would like, what food she would like, what color scheme she would like, where she would like to get married.  Nothing.

[antelope]

how can you really love or hate (or anything in between) a stranger?

I don't know, but I do love him, or the not him or whoever he may or may not be. Sounds like rubbish but I know what I mean. Have just posted more of my story on L3, what a pathetic person I sound yet I love him.

maybe what you love is the reflected/mirrored image of you that she provided at the beginning of the relationship?

maybe you fell in love with the fact that she 'loved' things about you that you didn't actually love about yourself?

maybe for the first time in your life, someone made you feel understood and accepted, and you love her for doing that... .

I know what you mean Sadly, I was there for a while... .

if you continue in your recovery, what you may find at the end of this dark tunnel is the 'light'... .

the 'light' is giving that mirrored love, in a real form and way, to yourself 

[Sadly]

Thank you Antelope, actually I'm a she he's the he. I guess your right though quite frankly right now I am as lost as lost as can be. x

[HappyNihilist]

Maybe it's not so much "he didn't love me" as "he and I didn't share the same expectations of love"?

Love is such a simple, pure emotion. Definitions of it - expectations of what "real" love is - are far more complex. Maybe 0.0001% of the population is truly incapable of feeling love towards another person. Caring about someone, wanting to be with them, having a relationship with them... .this is love. The relationship may have been unhealthy, and the feelings of love may not last, but that doesn't mean that two people didn't love each other.

A disordered/unhealthy relationship can make you really think about what your values are, and what your expectations are for a healthy relationship.

Suspicious, what does a healthy relationship look like to you? What have you learned about love and what you might expect/need from a partner?

the 'light' is giving that mirrored love, in a real form and way, to yourself 

[apollotech]

And so I think a big turning point for me has been the realisation that yes, he did love, and perhaps he did love what he categorised as the good things about me. But you can't split people into good and bad characteristics - in order to love a person, you have to love the whole. And he couldn't even see me as a whole, let alone love what that meant. He loved the Angel. He didn't love *me*

Suspicious1,

I think they do love, but it's not a healthy or mature love that a normal person expects. It's an overweighted needs based love, and that's unhealthy. Looking back at my own relationship, I think my BPDexgf loved me as a very young child loves a parent. She expected me to fulfill her in that role. It was a need. I couldn't sustain meeting her need.

I don't believe their splitting has anything to do with their degree of loving someone. Yes, it's hurtful because they seem to be so readily able to flip us from good to bad, bad to good, but I think that is more of a measure of or an indication of their love/emotional needs not being met. I think we misinterpret it because we read it at face value.

Think about it like this: have you ever said something mean or hurtful to someone that you love? Did that mean that you didn't love them? Because a pwBPD can split someone to the extreme, we overbuy into it as he/she doesn't love me.

[Blimblam]

suspicious,

I think your making some big steps here that seem to be helping you.  It seems more along the lines of you are asking yourself what you want from a romantic relationship than if your ex is capable of love. I had a relationship with one of my exs where as time went on she was no longer able to see me and realized she wasn't in love with me anymore she was only in love with the way I made her feel at certain times and that felt engulfing. She saw a certain part of me and loved me but she held me to that expectation and I began to feel invisible.

With my BPD ex... .its hard to explain... .its like we both got to the deepest parts of ourselves but these moments were fleeting yet somehow that space where we got to these deepest parts of ourselves seem to exist outside of time and are enveloped in terror... .its hard to explain.

[Sadly]

Ap0llo I think they do love, but it's not a healthy or mature love that a normal person expects. It's an overweighted needs based love, and that's unhealthy. Looking back at my own relationship, I think my BPDexgf loved me as a very young child loves a parent. She expected me to fulfill her in that role. It was a need. I couldn't sustain meeting her need.

I don't believe their splitting has anything to do with their degree of loving someone. Yes, it's hurtful because they seem to be so readily able to flip us from good to bad, bad to good, but I think that is more of a measure of or an indication of their love/emotional needs not being met. I think we misinterpret it because we read it at face value.

Think about it like this: have you ever said something mean or hurtful to someone that you love? Did that mean that you didn't love them? Because a pwBPD can split someone to the extreme, we overbuy into it as he/she doesn't love me.

Of all the amazing and apt definitions I have read on this wonderful website this is the one that hit me like a sledge hammer. It has helped me a huge amount and eased a massive hurt in my mind. Thank you so very much.

[hergestridge]

And so I think a big turning point for me has been the realisation that yes, he did love, and perhaps he did love what he categorised as the good things about me. But you can't split people into good and bad characteristics - in order to love a person, you have to love the whole. And he couldn't even see me as a whole, let alone love what that meant. He loved the Angel. He didn't love *me*.

On a sidenote:

Expecting to be loved "as you are" with good and bad characteristics is an a way just as unrealistic and as expecting someone to be all good. It is an idealized view of someone's ability to give love. You become loved for the good things you do.

Unconditional love is given by parents and god.

When we let someone down it sometimes they stop loving us. High ideals are not exclusive for pwBPD, but refusing to let go even though the partner fails to live up to said ideals certainly sounds like a BPD mind at work.

[GreenEyedMonster]

I think that I knew all along that he didn't really love me.  Something felt wrong.  I was lucky that I saw this and didn't fully buy into the relationship, ever.  I kept hearing all kinds of things about how sexy, amazing, wonderful, and perfect I was.  But my BF never, ever felt the need to ask me any questions about his own concerns, or wonder how any of my flaws might affect him in the long-term.  It was very unsettling, really, to think that he wasn't holding up his half of the relationship by looking out for his own needs.  In hindsight, I find it especially alarming that he didn't seem to come into the relationship with any clear expectations that I needed to meet, nothing to wonder about, nothing to ask me about.  He just took me on sight as perfect.  Very scary.

[SummerStorm]

I think that I knew all along that he didn't really love me.  Something felt wrong.  I was lucky that I saw this and didn't fully buy into the relationship, ever.  I kept hearing all kinds of things about how sexy, amazing, wonderful, and perfect I was.  But my BF never, ever felt the need to ask me any questions about his own concerns, or wonder how any of my flaws might affect him in the long-term.  It was very unsettling, really, to think that he wasn't holding up his half of the relationship by looking out for his own needs.  In hindsight, I find it especially alarming that he didn't seem to come into the relationship with any clear expectations that I needed to meet, nothing to wonder about, nothing to ask me about.  He just took me on sight as perfect.  Very scary.

A month after we became friends, mine asked me to live with her.  I said no.  But she had only two requirements: doing dishes and killing bugs.  At that point, she didn't even know how old I was (finally asked me when we first had sex, three months after becoming friends) or if I was into drugs, orgies, sacrificing small children to Satan, etc.  I seemed like a good person, and so that was good enough for her.  I jest, but think about it.  What other bad habits might I have had that would have made living with me terrible?

[GreenEyedMonster]

Yeah, mine hated feet.  He said he had an "anti-foot fetish."  One time when we were watching a movie, I accidentally put my foot on his leg, and apologized.  He then went on about how awesome and beautiful my feet were.  It was literally impossible for me to even annoy him when he was idealizing me.

[apollotech]

Ap0llo I think they do love, but it's not a healthy or mature love that a normal person expects. It's an overweighted needs based love, and that's unhealthy. Looking back at my own relationship, I think my BPDexgf loved me as a very young child loves a parent. She expected me to fulfill her in that role. It was a need. I couldn't sustain meeting her need.

I don't believe their splitting has anything to do with their degree of loving someone. Yes, it's hurtful because they seem to be so readily able to flip us from good to bad, bad to good, but I think that is more of a measure of or an indication of their love/emotional needs not being met. I think we misinterpret it because we read it at face value.

Think about it like this: have you ever said something mean or hurtful to someone that you love? Did that mean that you didn't love them? Because a pwBPD can split someone to the extreme, we overbuy into it as he/she doesn't love me.

Of all the amazing and apt definitions I have read on this wonderful website this is the one that hit me like a sledge hammer. It has helped me a huge amount and eased a massive hurt in my mind. Thank you so very much.

You are very welcome Sadly. Godspeed on your healing journey!