I stooped to her emotional level and it worked

[thisagain]

So I know we're supposed to take the high road, be the adult and the emotional caretaker, but I did the opposite today and got a really good response from my partner. Which made me wonder, does anyone ever stop being the mature one and instead just express emotions like your pwBPD would? How do they react?

Today my partner snapped and raged at me over a little mistake I made. I tried to just listen and validate her feelings, but it made me feel really awful because of all the emotional heavy lifting I've been doing for her, especially the past few days when she's been extra unstable. And then she jumps down my throat for something minor.

I was really upset, tired, hungry, and just feeling totally worn out. So for some reason I decided to paint myself black the way she does to herself. I curled up in a ball crying and said "I'm bad, I hurt you, we were doing well and I ruined it, I made you scared of me, I'm bad" and so on. I didn't really mean it but I thought maybe that's what she wants me to do (since it's what she does), or maybe it'll be like talking to her in her language somehow.

And she immediately changed her tone and attitude, and started seeing the problem from my perspective! She said "you're a good person, you just made a mistake, everyone makes mistakes, you've been there for me so much over the past few days and you probably just got worn out and lost your focus for just a moment, but I know you didn't mean to hurt me and I forgive you and I love you." She even told ME "what you're saying sounds like black-and-white thinking, but remember, you can make a mistake and still be a good person who loves me and is doing her best!"

Normally after a fight she just glares and barely touches me for days, but tonight she wrapped her arms around me and spoke kindly to me. Since then she's been checking in with me like "I love you, we're okay, do you want a hug?"

Her connecting with me after a fight and being able to see my perspective is SO RARE. This was by far the best resolution of a fight we've ever had. I assume it's not a healthy or viable long-term strategy, but it really feels good... .

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[married21years]

sounds like she has empathy and doing everything to reduce this emotion.

the next step may be to push you away!

[lovers knot]

Wow! It's almost like re-wiring her brain back into her with reverse mirroring, but almost like inverting what she'd never seen before out of you, and then to have her see it (I suppose a pwBPD's "mirror neurons" still operate functionally!) out of you and to react as she did is very, very interesting.

It makes me wonder if this has ever been studied or written about before somewhere--I'm sure it has, and would be interesting to research the behavior.

When you stated that you were hungry, it reminded me of the Proverb: "A hungry man is an angry man." Good thing you knew what lines to cross in the sand in that regard! (all jokes)

As married21years said, the empathy is there, apparently, and at least she is showing you some form of love and emotion, but let's hope that the next step isn't to push you away out of the blue.

It may not be healthy to approach it in that way, but kudos to you for "experimenting" in that regard and "seeing what happened," for curiosity's sake. Hey, if anything, at least it turned out to be a good one-time-thing with lots of cuddles and Love Yous and all of that wonderfully mushy stuff, eh?

Do you plan to approach her behavior this way at another time? or, are you perhaps going to let this be the last time you try it in this regard? It would be interesting to see if she would react in the same light. I know that it is usually "depending on the mood," but her natural mirror neurons must have been in high gear this night!

[married21years]

using their empathy is painful for them, eventually they will shut out that pain.

be warned.

games dont work

[ptilda]

using their empathy is painful for them, eventually they will shut out that pain.

be warned.

games dont work

But isn't ALL this "games?" I mean validating, SET UP, going through these motions . . . hoping for results? Then what?

[married21years]

using their empathy is painful for them, eventually they will shut out that pain.

be warned.

games dont work

But isn't ALL this "games?" I mean validating, SET UP, going through these motions . . . hoping for results? Then what?

validating allows them to regulate and think clearly

it is not a game.

when they can think clearly they can get out of their mess

[ptilda]

using their empathy is painful for them, eventually they will shut out that pain.

be warned.

games dont work

But isn't ALL this "games?" I mean validating, SET UP, going through these motions . . . hoping for results? Then what?

validating allows them to regulate and think clearly

it is not a game.

when they can think clearly they can get out of their mess

Mirroring is a valuable technique especially for toddlers (and it's widely understood that our BPD partners are like todlers) to help them gain perspective as they see their actions being "worn" by someone else. It's not a game. While I think it must be used with care, I am not so married to the rules that I cannot think outside of the box.

[married21years]

they love and care for you but they cannot be loved and cared for

this is the fundamental problem.

they have to control the amount of love they give and receive.

or they end up in pain. abandonment and intimacy issues.

the idea is to keep them regulated so they can deal with these issues and their inner pain.

manipulation will backfire when they realize

[Cat Familiar]

Before I found this board and knew that my husband was BPD (I had suspected it because I bought "Stop Walking on Eggshells" a couple of years before), I tried everything I could think of to disrupt his dysregulations.

I had a couple of occasions where he stopped in the middle of his drama and showed me empathy for my "drama."

The problem was that I felt so shi&&y playing that role and establishing that history in his mind that I didn't want to do it again.

But it was effective for the moment... .

It shows you that they do have the willpower to get out of their own head and see things from a different perspective... .if they want to... .and that's the big if.

[an0ught]

I've attended once a training where one aspect covered how to deal with angry and somewhat aggressive people. One approach was deliberately stepping up to their level in emotions that are displayed and then taking them stepwise down.

When people are angry they become deaf and blind. It can take some very blunt, black and white messages to still reach them - if they are reachable at all. If we want to validate immense pain and anger nice words won't cut it - actually they do cut but in the wrong way infuriating the other person.

Stepping up to their level is a strategy that has a real risk to backfire and is not always appropriate. Acting skills help - credibly displaying not being ruled by extreme emotions. It is best executed from a position of true strength as you don't want to loose control here. Boundaries are more universally applicable and are generally safer.

When you get it right the first time it can be an eye opener with respect to what extreme emotions rule our partner and what validation truly means.

[apollotech]

So for some reason I decided to paint myself black the way she does to herself. I curled up in a ball crying and said "I'm bad, I hurt you, we were doing well and I ruined it, I made you scared of me, I'm bad" and so on.

Hi thisagain,

I am curious, did you withdraw while you were beating yourself up? I am not sure that you triggered empathy.

[myself]

I didn't really mean it

Then you didn't get an actual reaction, you got one based off of misinformation. I remember one time when I apologized for something I hadn't done, just to make the peace. Which worked, for the time being, but at later times was brought up against me, like, "You admitted it then, so you must be guilty now." When I told the truth about how I'd only said it to smooth things over, it made the situation even worse as far as trust, believability, etc. It's better to just be yourself, and be honest. Then the other person's reaction can at least be based off of something genuine.

[formflier]

But it was effective for the moment... .

I suspect this was about their reaction to  a "new" reaction from you.  So while you "upset the applecart" and had a new dynamic... .I doubt this would be a long term thing.

Certainly not something to try and achieve. 

Perhaps the situation allowed her to switch to a rescuer role... .hard to guess at exactly what was going through her head...

FF

[waverider]

Shock and awe can work once or twice, until it becomes the new normal, and then its just the starting point for higher escalations.

[thisagain]

I wasn't really planning on repeating it, mostly because her response seemed too good to be true or replicable. I just thought it was really curious that out of all the things I've tried, this was the only time she was able to see a problem from my perspective.

Today she totally lost it on me because her friend invited her to an orgy   and that reminded her of her emotional affair and how now she's "afraid to tell me about her friends." Go figure. I guess an orgy invitation is one of the more comical things to add to the list of triggers.

[lovers knot]

I wasn't really planning on repeating it, mostly because her response seemed too good to be true or replicable. I just thought it was really curious that out of all the things I've tried, this was the only time she was able to see a problem from my perspective.

Today she totally lost it on me because her friend invited her to an orgy   and that reminded her of her emotional affair and how now she's "afraid to tell me about her friends." Go figure. I guess an orgy invitation is one of the more comical things to add to the list of triggers.

After reading this, I thought to myself: "Perhaps getting the Silent Treatment is a blessing on my end!" 

All jokes aside, I must say, I chuckled at the fact that her new trigger is from an orgy invitation! Ah, it just keeps getting more, erm, "interesting" by the day, doesn't it?

She said that she's afraid to tell you about her friends. Ha! Well, I suppose you know a LITTLE MORE about them now after the orgy invitation, no? Wow. Totally unexpected for me, but I can only imagine how it was for you! Has she never told you anything whatsoever about her friends? Like, maybe best friends, people she enjoys hanging out with often, or... .? If she is that hesitant, it makes one wonder what else "they" could be "in to." I think we all have a little Sherlock Holmes in us, but then there are times when ignorance is absolutely pure bliss, so it's an iffy road to trek upon. (I'm rambling!)

I didn't think you had plans on repeating the behavior, but you're right, very curious and interesting indeed! I did a little reading up on it after reading that you did this, and much to my non-surprise, I discovered that other Nons had pulled this number before, as well, with a 50/50 rate of having the experience that you had (at least so far as what I read--maybe the odds are higher or lower, or whatever, but it's interesting, either way!).

I hope that whatever turn this new trigger has taken, that you find peace in all of it!

[waverider]

People dont get invited to orgys unless the invitee thinks they would be up for it.

Odds are it wasn't really an orgy, but her dramatization of it, for a reaction.

[thisagain]

Yeah, I think she was picking a fight because she's scared of how well we've been doing and she's still bitter about my boundaries re: her emotional affair. I do believe that the friend (she is or was a mutual friend) invited her to some weird sex party, because the friend is into that kind of thing. But when she told me about it, I took a breather and then just asked "does she know we're monogamous and not into that kind of thing?" I would have dropped it there but then pwBPD decided to pick a fight about whether I was allowed to talk to the friend about it. (I wasn't planning on talking to the friend, but thought it was fishy that she was so defensive.)

The problem with her friends in general is just feelings=facts and her being unhappy about the boundaries I've set in the past re: inappropriate friendships. In a rational moment she can acknowledge that it was reasonable for me to ask her to cut off contact with her emotional-affair buddy. We almost broke up over it, she went to live with him for a while, and then a condition of me staying in the relationship was for her to find somewhere else to live and cut off contact with him.

But losing this "friend" made her feel so bad--she had him painted white the whole time and so she thought they were much closer than they objectively were. So when she's dysregulated, she has to pin that bad feeling on someone and usually ends up angry at me over the boundary. And she doesn't have any continuity with what she feels or thinks, so she'll acknowledge that she messed up and I was more than reasonable, but then the next day start railing on me for being so controlling and ruining her friendships.

[HappyNihilist]

What exactly is your boundary regarding her friends?

The purpose of boundaries isn't to try to control someone else's behavior, but rather to establish what we will not tolerate and the actions we will take if our boundaries are crossed.

I definitely understand where you wouldn't be comfortable at all with her talking to or even about her emotional affair buddy. But the truth is that you can't control her actions - only your responses.

It sounds like your condition is that if she contacts the emotional affair buddy, you will end the relationship. Is this correct? If she did contact him, would you in fact end the relationship?

[thisagain]

I don't have a general boundary about her "friends." It's mostly come up when she's gone through a couple phases of deciding she wanted to have sex with men (we're lesbians). During one of those phases I told her I wasn't comfortable with her going over to this guy's apartment or being in a one-on-one coffee date type situation with him. I had one foot out the door and would have left if she hadn't agreed to that.

The other problem was that he was my professional school classmate and she started telling him inappropriate details about our relationship, fights, etc and then went to live with him. So I'm having to go to class and sit next to this guy knowing that she left me, went to live with him, and is telling him about our relationship. But she was so dysregulated (actually manic) at the time that she couldn't care less.

I'm no longer in school with him and he moved across the country, so I'm not sure if I'd leave if she resumed casual contact with him. But I think it's moot because she's never expressed wanting to. In reality they were never close and it was more of a shallow acquaintance type thing--she just blew it out of proportion and prioritized it above our relationship.

[thisagain]

Also I think it's important background, that she has a pattern of bringing up sex with men, coffee dates with this guy, etc specifically to push me away when she's scared of getting too close. We have no disagreements at all about her actual friends. Like I said, objectively she and this guy were not close (at least not until after she moved in with him and he got to bask in the idealization).

Other than that and the orgy invite, the only other issue was one coworker who I just said I would be nervous if they went on a coffee date (because she'd been bragging about how coworker was hitting on her). She later decided the coworker was horrible, lazy, trashy, a b___, etc. But last night still yelled at me about how I kept them from being friends.