"why do you like to humiliate yourself so much?"

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Talking to boyfriend. We talked about the women he added.

Because I am upset about it and tried to talk to him he told me, "Why do you like to humiliate yourself so much?"

Humiliate myself? Since when is asking for this sort of thing not to happen, is me trying to humiliate myself? After the cheating, the lies, the baby... . I do not have a problem with regular people. I have a problem with people he has caused a problem with, lying to me about them and so on and THEN adding them as a contact on social sites. Seriously, the ONLY PEOPLE he has added in the last 2 years are women he has screwed around at me on. He has done it KNOWING I am already upset about them.

Am I out of my mind to be upset about it. I feel SO HELPLESS.

[Daniell85]

Talking to boyfriend. We talked about the women he added.

Because I am upset about it and tried to talk to him he told me, "Why do you like to humiliate yourself so much?"

Humiliate myself? Since when is asking for this sort of thing not to happen, is me trying to humiliate myself? After the cheating, the lies, the baby... . I do not have a problem with regular people. I have a problem with people he has caused a problem with, lying to me about them and so on and THEN adding them as a contact on social sites. Seriously, the ONLY PEOPLE he has added in the last 2 years are women he has screwed around at me on. He has done it KNOWING I am already upset about them.

Am I out of my mind to be upset about it. I feel SO HELPLESS.

[Daniell85]

I guess I just can't stop trying to "normalize" this relationship.

[Lifewriter16]

Hi Daniell85,

I debated not replying in case this feedback causes you hurt because it's not a comforting opinion. However, to me, it reads that he's trying to tell you where you stand with him. It sounds like he's trying to tell you that you are just one of many and no more important than the rest of them. It seems to me that when he asks why you like to humiliate yourself, it's because you are forcing him into telling you how he feels about you and it's not good news.

I'm sorry that it's bad news, but I hope you can see that I actually want to spare you continued hurt.

Lifewriter x

[sweetheart]

Hi daniell85

There's absolutely nothing wrong with feeling upset and hurt about what is happening, however taking this hurt and upset to your bf is not going to get either the validation or outcome you want. He is telling you this with his words and his actions, and I understand how painful that must be.

His perception of you as someone who is humiliating themselves also lets you know that this is not something he is going to change for you and is asking you to stop.

So you are left with your two choices which I'm going to write down even though you know what they are.

Accepting that what he is doing is his choice and he isn't going to change. Or you say I understand that this is your choice and I care about you and I want our relationship to work, however for me this is something that is no longer working. And you split up.

Otherwise you will just keep doing damage to your relationship by trying to force him to address an issue that clearly isn't one for him.

Can you accept how things are with your relationship today and move forward away from it?

Do you have a T, somewhere you can talk about how you feel?

[Daniell85]

I have someone to talk to.

I don't mind at all someone , anyone here, telling me their thoughts.

He keeps telling me if I would let this "small stuff go". We would be ok.

He has a history with family forcing him into things, so the instant he meets resistence, he becomes majorly stubborn. He wants 2 things at once: me and to show me he doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to. I told him I already know this. It isn't about a power struggle for me. It appears to be a constant fight over who wins between him and the rest of the world.

I get that this is his issue, but it's aggrivating the heck out of me, when I am already trying to deal with some serious damage.

I can't tolarate it long term, no. I keeping thinking there is a way through this. I don't see one as long as he is making it about control instead of a healing way forward.

[Lou12]

Hi Daniell

I understand completely that you want your bf to hear you and respect what your asking. Honestly I am not really sure this just falls under a BPD trait or a trait of a guy who's pissing about on you simply because he knows he can.

I don't think the work needs to fall on him so much as it does on you. Have you thought about working on your own boundaries a little more? I say that with the up most concern for what you are allowing this man to get away with.

The message your sending to him is that you don't love or respect yourself.

Please work on yourself not him x

[zeus123]

Daniell85 why are you still with him and having conversation and contact if you know what kind of person he is?

[Daniell85]

I've known this man for 6 plus years. He wasn't like this until the last couple of years. It's like this storm came in on him and by default me. I keep thinking and feeling if he was somewhat stable for 4 years, then his life implodes, then maybe he can get back to where it was.

Why do any of us try and work through things?

[Lou12]

Yes I get where your coming from. We are all being dealt sh1t blows so what makes your blow worse than anyone else's?

I can only answer for me. I judge my relationships with people quite black and white in the sense of 'if there good out weighs there bad they stay' if however there badness is over riding the good then it's time to say good bye.

Sometimes people show that much badness that no matter how much goodness they show it will never over ride the badness they have shown.

Therefore if I am faced with a scenario such as what you describe then that's a big deal breaker for me because I could never see goodness (even with BPD diagnosis) in that person.

X

[Daniell85]

I'm obviously not making much progress atm. He is someone I love, and I know I talked a lot about backing away. Probably frustrated a few people, enough already give it up Daniell!

I think maybe there is a hook in here somewhere that is keeping me stuck, so Lou, you do make some sensible points. I spent my time on these boards over on staying. Someone moved my post from over there a couple weeks ago. I just kind of stayed here since.

[Lou12]

Look Danielle if you want to stay with your bf then don't let anyone on here or anywhere else tell you what you should do.

Go back on the staying board and get some advice from people who may be able to help you better.

I am no psychologist on BPD but I do see a guy here who wants his cake and eat it. He is clearly managing down your expectations to a point where you will tolerate anything. First will come the social media acceptance, then it'll move on to innocent communication, then it'll move on to an innocent coffee and before you know it you'll be just about expecting and accepting anything.

You have got to tighten up your boundaries, your letting him walk all over you. Forget telling him with words, show him with actions. Show him your not afraid to go on with your life without him!

X

[Daniell85]

I went on with my life without him from mid nov to late Dec and he came looking for me and apologized. Since then he has dropped the nasty habit of blocking me on places like skype and such. I kick him off when he blocks me, now, and go about my business.

I am learning. Thanks for the validation on that.  

[JohnLove]

Try detaching as you go about processing the hurtful garbage that comes with these relationships.

Maintain your boundaries.

It seems that some pwBPD have a real hard time learning healthy intimate monogamous behaviour or maintaining it.   :'(

[Lifewriter16]

Hi Daniell,

We all have a hard time learning and I think there are times when it is easier for some of us here on BPD Family to advise another member to do what we feel that we should do even though we are not actually able to take our own advice. It's like we are desperate to save someone else from their pain because we are unable to save ourselves.

The truth is, that setting boundaries with a pwBPD is not easy. My BPDxbf is a boundary buster who dumps me as soon as I set limits. The truth for me was that he always had the upper hand and my attempts to redress that were absolutely futile. I wonder if other members here feel that same futility and are hoping for someone to come along who'll be able to do the impossible and bring their pwBPD into line. I suspect that many of us are torn between hoping our relationship will work out and knowing it's just never going to happen. So, in walks some unsuspecting comrade in arms who is advised to do what we know we should do... .

Having said that, I still think your fella is taking the piss and I'm sure you deserve so much more.

Love Lifewriter

[Lou12]

Totally agree with lifewriter.

The good thing you have on your side Is that your BPD has a history of coming back for you once you attempt to set a boundary. My bf very rarely does, he would rather sit in pain without me and reach out to me by using tactics that are totally back to front such as getting me jealous to a point where I contact him to see what the hell he's playing at.

Try using the fact that he always returns to your advantage? By setting a boundary and then letting him back in your life to continue doing the things that hurt you is not really maintaining that boundary and possibly falls under the bracket of 'intermittent reinforcement of boundaries' which I've read can be worse than not having any boundaries. Why not try setting the boundary around him accepting his 'affair partners' and if he does not comply have nothing to do with him until he does respect that. Ignore him with bad behaviour and reward him when he respects what you have asked.

Obviously this will only work if it is a boundary that you are not willing to tolerate x

[enlighten me]

My first thought on this is projection. Your not humiliating yourself but humiliating him by calling him out on his behaviour.

Ive seen it with my exs and read many times how a pwBPD flips things 180 back to the person challenging them.

It reminds me of two kids arguing (not saying your a kid just his reaction). One says your a stinky head and the others reaction is no your a stinky head. Theres no basis to the reply its just a reaction.

[Daniell85]

I hadn't felt particularly humiliated, it's been more a feeling of bafflement, and getting brain washed in a way.

HE says the cheating antics are over. So from HIS view he can now be trusted. That is the stance he has. Why not be friends with people you had flirtations or an affair with. They all know the cheating stuff is over. They all know it was a bad thing. I understand he is trying to say he won't do it again, but my own values and boundaries raise up and say, no way.

I give advice too that I know is hard to take.  

My BPD is typically willing to pick up again after he runs off a while. He calms down and comes back. And people are making a really good point here. Historically, he has started hovering around me, trying to get my attention so I will speak to him. After a while, I do.

He seems to view that as HIM taking ME back. So he starts up with the "oh, I don't know if I want contact with you. I don't know if you have changed, you have caused a lot of problems."     Typically I have let that slide in the interest of getting on with things, but I have noticed that he takes that as agreement from me that it was me causing the problems ( all my truthfulness, fidelity, disagreeing with the affair stuff) so HE is getting to call the shots, so HIS boundary is HE gets to decide to continue the cheating type behaviors and Danielle has to suck it up, or he won't be talking to me.


That is what being afraid of enforcing the boundaries has gotten me.

I was very surprised we he came back around in December. Astounded he apologized. Thrilled. It was about 1 week of really happy stuff, then he added the next woman he had lied to me about in the past and been innapropriate with a few months ago.  Oh, he said, I am not doing anything bad with her! She is not doing anything bad, either.

Really? I have no idea, but history predicts ugly stuff.

He then tells me she is married, had been separated, and her husband had come back and they were renewing their marriage. No reason to be worried, she could care less about my boyfriend. Obviously, which is why she came over and asked to friend him and now his "like" on every post he makes.

He came last night and we talked a bit more. He doesn't think our relationship is normal. He heavily implied that it's my behavior that is the problem. He explained to me that I have caused him to have to distance himself from me. It's because he has a very stressful life even without me and seeing me show up makes him all worried and tense because sooner than later, I create a problem out of nothing and he is so rattled by it all, he just drifts away from me without even realizing it.

I know he wants me with him. He also wants all of the other stuff whenever he wants it. He will do anything and say anything not to have to be responsible for his side of things.  He doesn't see me as at all stable ( and he desperately wants me calm) because I have had strong reactions to finding out I was cheated on, to finding out about the terminated baby a couple of months ago.

I am trying but that stuff really takes time to process. Add in the constant aggrivation of all of the other stuff, and even getting to the point of trying to validate his feelings is pretty difficult for me.

I feel like I sobered up a bit yesterday talking to him. You know that hope thing that common sense actions will prevail. At this point that isn't going to happen. My choice for the moment is to pull back from him. He gets pretty busy, and he may wonder why I am quiet. I think he will actually be relieved for a few days, then get curious and look for me.

It will give me time to think and calm down. This is really for me. His distraction just makes it easy for me to do it this way. I can tell he really doesn't want a repeat of me walking off again. It gives him time to think, too.

Thanks everyone who has posted to me    

[Concerns]

Hi, I read this thread a couple of days ago and I thought there were some very constructive comments. So I read the Headline again, read through, and here are my thoughts. The original comment he made to you is straight up manipulative and abusive. Like you are putting yourself through something, you can avoid. While that may be true, it is definitely not the intent of his comment. His comment is meant to degrade you, beat you down, create self-doubt, and manipulate you into staying in your place. This feels more like narcissism than BPD but who can really say.

He seems to view that as HIM taking ME back. So he starts up with the "oh, I don't know if I want contact with you. I don't know if you have changed, you have caused a lot of problems."

Soo its your fault he cheated on you? He's abusive.

HE says the cheating antics are over. So from HIS view he can now be trusted. That is the stance he has. Why not be friends with people you had flirtations or an affair with. They all know the cheating stuff is over. They all know it was a bad thing. I understand he is trying to say he won't do it again, but my own values and boundaries raise up and say, no way.

Trust has to be earned. He doesn't get to decide when he's trusted again. He has to prove he's trustworthy. These are multiple women so this idea that it "wont do it again" is just a manipulation and shadow play. I wouldn't be validating his feelings. But I will say that on some level you have agreed to this behavior. Internally, I don't think you agree but in practice you have. This does not excuse his behavior but I think you either need to work on radically accepting his behavior and learn to live with his illness and how it manifests or learn how gain the skill to break from the abuse. Get support, like here, but more.

[thefixermom]

My impression of this man you are with is that you are fighting for him to respect you and he is fighting back for his right to be disrespectful (although in his mind he doesn't see it that way, he just sees it as "I want what I want"  He does have that right to be selfish.   Because you are still with him, your complaints are little more than nagging in his view. He does not take you seriously IMO.  If you were to respect yourself and leave, he might come apologizing again, but only till he gets you back under his thumb. Some relationships are like that. The parties take turns holding the power (and misery) over the other.

[Panda39]

Daniell85

I want to make sure you do not believe what this man is saying about you.

I was in a relationship (not BPD) for almost 10 years as a young woman, most of it was great but towards the end my boyfriend started putting me down, complaining that I wasn't outdoorsy enough (I never was) or that I wasn't athletic enough (I never was) for example.  So because I loved him I tried to be all the things he wanted and still was never what he wanted me to be.  My self-esteem tanked because I believed what he was telling me about myself that I wasn't good enough no matter how hard I tried.  The end of the relationship was rocky until finally he did what I would not tolerate (my boundary) and that was cheat on me.  I was done... .but in fact I wasn't done.  I internalized all of those negative messages and took them forward with me.

I didn't date for a year and a half and then met in June, started dating in July and engaged in August to my rebound man.  I hardly knew him and married him because I had to "prove" that I was worth marrying.  I unknowingly married an alchoholic and landed in a 20 year co-dependent marriage because I had internalized the beleif that I wasn't good enough for something better.

I know now that the young man from all those years ago was terrified of commitment.  We had been together from 16 - 25 the next logical step would have been marriage.  My theory is that he loved me but couldn't commit and he didn't really want break up either so he did what he could to make me break up with him and I finally did.  I had no idea that damage that was done that last year or so until many years later.

I deserved better and you deserve better always keep in mind who you are.  You are a good person, a caring person, who is not being loved the way you deserve by this man.  What is his behavior doing to you? What is your deal breaker? What do you want in a relationship?  Is this man providing it?  What do you think you deserve?

Panda39

[unicorn2014]

Talking to boyfriend. We talked about the women he added.

Because I am upset about it and tried to talk to him he told me, "Why do you like to humiliate yourself so much?"

Humiliate myself? Since when is asking for this sort of thing not to happen, is me trying to humiliate myself? After the cheating, the lies, the baby... . I do not have a problem with regular people. I have a problem with people he has caused a problem with, lying to me about them and so on and THEN adding them as a contact on social sites. Seriously, the ONLY PEOPLE he has added in the last 2 years are women he has screwed around at me on. He has done it KNOWING I am already upset about them.

Am I out of my mind to be upset about it. I feel SO HELPLESS.

I hope you don't mind my commenting.

It sounds like he is pushing your buttons.

I follow the high conflict institute and recently they published an article about the hidden narcissist, and how they come out in conflict. If you want I can post a link to that article.

Awhile back you had mentioned that a therapist had said you had BPD.

If there is anything truth to that at all, then my hypothesis is that your boyfriend is actually a narcissist.

Would it help to look at your dynamic from that point of view?

[Daniell85]

Unicorn, I don't mind you commenting.

My former therapist was implying I have BPD.  I directly asked her, and she denied it. She explained to me that the treatment for PTSD is close to the treatment for BPD and they overlap.

I am a little wary of that. Her comments to me at the last session I had with her were a little shocking to me, as she ( theoretically, she claimed afterward) described me as feeling my life was meaningless unless I have a man in it. I couldn't even connect to her description and was actually almost speechless. She backpedaled fast when she saw that. I simply lost trust in her and stopped seeing her at that point.

Her view, since my relationship has been a long distance one ( it was planned to end as marriage, like your situation) it was not a "real" relationship. She all but refused to even discuss it. When she did, she was very dismissive. That was pretty annoying.

Panda, I don't believe him. He and I had a lot of discussion lately. He told me outright that he knew he was not caring for me the way he should, but he says, he denies he doesn't care at all! Geeze, thanks. After that he has been behaving very well the last few days, being very attentive and supportive. Except those people are still his social contacts, so I am doubtful.

Thefixermom, I think you are right in some ways. He has been like this with everyone around him, family and so on. He openly says so. I think he may be trying, in some crude way, to establish boundaries with people who have imposed on him to the point his life is seriously messed up. Sad as it may seem, I am starting to think I am getting collateral damage, his main focus being his family.

Concerns, I have spent the majority of this time really baffled by him. Yes, he is being abusive, and has been.  I kept thinking and sometimes still do, that we just weren't understanding each other. I understand better now. He gets it. He understands all of it. I don't validate his feelings on this stuff. I flat out tell him he is full of it and I am not buying it.

Possibly it may seem like I am accepting his behavior regarding cheating because I haven't ditched him. I haven't accepted it and I won't. There won't be any overnights or anything like that unless he sorts himself out. I am not willing to try and progress back to where we were before the cheating until I feel reasonably safe with him.

[unicorn2014]

Unicorn, I don't mind you commenting.

My former therapist was implying I have BPD.  I directly asked her, and she denied it. She explained to me that the treatment for PTSD is close to the treatment for BPD and they overlap.

I've never heard that.

I am a little wary of that. Her comments to me at the last session I had with her were a little shocking to me, as she ( theoretically, she claimed afterward) described me as feeling my life was meaningless unless I have a man in it. I couldn't even connect to her description and was actually almost speechless. She backpedaled fast when she saw that. I simply lost trust in her and stopped seeing her at that point.

I'd be wary of that too, she didn't sound very compassionate.

Her view, since my relationship has been a long distance one ( it was planned to end as marriage, like your situation) it was not a "real" relationship. She all but refused to even discuss it. When she did, she was very dismissive. That was pretty annoying.

She sounds really difficult.

I will privately message you.

----

Aside from your incompetent therapist, do you think its off the mark that your bf might have some narcissistic traits?

[Daniell85]

When I started seeing my boyfriend's behavior longer term, I honestly couldn't tell what he was. He has family members that by my estimation are definitely showing NPD traits.

I spent ages over on a psychopath forum, did a lot of reading and youtube watching about NPD. My thoughts circle around BPD/npd.

Whatever his issue is, it's been very aggrivated by the manipulation and demands of his family. He seemed extremely co-dependent when I met him. I was pretty frustrated about what I was seeing and tried to encourage him to step back a bit, do more for his own life and self. This guy was literally giving so much to family at that time financially, that he didn't always have enough money for food.

Then a couple of big things happened with his family, he became very angry and bitter, he had the affair, suddenly he is mean spirited, acting out all over. Completely denying he is hurting anyone or responsible. He has had major issues with other people getting upset with him. As in it's NOT ok to show any REAL upset of any kind. You can say "I am upset", but any active show of it and he has gone into massive rages.

Is all of that NPD? He has shown a ton of very cold and damaging behavior for which he has refused to even acknowledge ( until the last couple of months) were damaging or hurtful.

I was very surprised the other day to see him taking responsibility and telling me he knows he has not been caring for me properly. I just listened. I didn't ask why he was or had been. It would have been quicksand.

Without very much emotion, he told me his mother had been calling him selfish. This lady manipulated him years ago into co signing for a mortgage on an expensive home. She was to make the payments. She stopped, leaving him to pay for it, or to let it go, or sell it out from under her. She has the money. She is counting on him loving her enough to not do anything but pay the bill. So far he has.

He is very bitter about this. And it isn't the only incident he is dealing with long term repercussions from with his family. Most of it involves money. To the extent his life has been crippled. So I think a lot of his behavior over the last few years is part of that. He is mad and has been punishing anyone who seems to be demanding anything of him.

Sorry for the long story. I am pretty tired out on it all right now with him. I feel resigned. The conflict has died down over the last week and I am letting things lie. He's been fairly attentive to me and atm I don't see a direction to go unless I want to start a lot of upset.

I don't.

[unicorn2014]

The does point more in the direction of narcissism. At any rate, all adult relationships are voluntary, as you and I know. I know myself I don't know if I have the compassion necessary to be in a lifelong relationship with a person with a mental illness who has not recovered from it. I know my own partner has made steps towards recovery but he has a long way to go. Its hard when you have third and fourth and fifth parties involved.

[izabellizima]

I'm obviously not making much progress atm. He is someone I love, and I know I talked a lot about backing away. Probably frustrated a few people, enough already give it up Daniell!

I think maybe there is a hook in here somewhere that is keeping me stuck, so Lou, you do make some sensible points. I spent my time on these boards over on staying. Someone moved my post from over there a couple weeks ago. I just kind of stayed here since.

Work on the hook for now. Is it you remembering when it was good and hoping to get to good again keeping you there? If so, do you have a time limit? "He better be monogamous and true by March or I will drop him."

I already got proof that the girl I am with is not true and may never want to work on her problems and that it would be best to let her go and let myself heal and move on... .with proof that we are better than these unstable fkd up relationships, why do we stay? Sometimes I think I stay to figure that bit out and then I remember how sad I am when she doesn't pick up the phone... .addiction?

If you wanna stay, can you stay with him as he is now? Just take him as the man he is, flaws and all?

[Daniell85]

oh, I stayed ( and actually intend to stay for now, though I have lowered contact and expectations) for a few reasons.

First, I was very confused what was going on. That took a long time to sort out because nothing was making sense.

Second, I understand why he has done a lot of things now.

Third and this one is entirely on me,  I lost some really important people in my life. Absolutely devastating. It's very very hard for me to give up on a loved one. So if there is a hook, that fear of loss is it. Not sure what to do about it, the capacity to detach in a healthy way has been difficult for me to learn. I am much better at it now, but still a lot of room to improve.