His ambivalence is getting worse and he's suspicious of my motive?

[Lou12]

As most of you know here I have been with my BPDbf approx 2 years. Up until recently I have totally changed tactics on how I react to my bfs BPD. I now use the tools advised on this forum and disengage a lot from his BPD behaviours.

I am seeing an improvement overall when he pushes me away, they are not lasting as long. An improvement ever so slightly on trust and him opening up to me. An improvement over all on his BPD games.

I am however seeing a decline in how ambivalent he is acting towards the relationship? I can't quite name specifics but it appears that he is less caring about the relationship even though emotionally I know he's not if that makes sense? It's like he's calmed down his BPD behaviours but with that has come a further distance between us and he acts less like he cares.

Now one conversation we had recently has really struck a cord with me and could very well be related.

He told me I make him paranoid! When I asked him to elaborate he told me in a round about way that, he didn't know why I wanted him because of the way he behaves. He is suspicious of my motives.

I know that lately he is definitely  throwing more and more little strikes at me (he does this by acting indifferent to me, like he doesn't really care and could take me or leave me) to see how much I'll take but is now appearing suspicious of me when I ignore them?

I suppose in his mind he is thinking 'why is she tolerating this?' But in my mind I'm thinking 'this is his issue to deal with, as long as I'm handling myself and feeling ok about the situation then I'll ignore it' (my boundary) I can't engage in some of his tactics like making me jealous when I know they are not true and he's doing it for a reaction.

I know it's constant boundary pushing but is he going to lose respect for me if I ignore it? It's feels like he is losing a little respect without me standing up to him and just ignoring it?

The only thing I have ever really stipulated to him was faithfulness, which is a firm boundary to me.

I'm confused if ignoring means letting him away with it? And it'll get worse?

Experiences please?

Ps I managed to change the conversation as I wasn't sure how best to answer!

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[formflier]

 

I'm seeing a bit of push/pull here, as you noticed when you said he was pushing away.

Let him push a bit, don't chase.  My guess is the not caring aspect is him trying to figure out a new way to express himself since you changed the rules.  You settled in quite nicely, he is going to take a while.

What did you say when he was suspicious of your motives?  Did you validate that love and feelings can be hard to explain?

Respect and boundaries.  He can push all he wants.  You don't need to push back.  Just hold the boundary.  Think of a wall.  People can beat on it all they want, no need for the wall to push back. 

FF

[Lou12]

Thanks FF

In all honesty I am trying to recall as much of the conversation as possible... .

It went along the lines of him trying to make me jealous for about 30 mins and me totally ignoring it. Then me saying in a playful joking way that I loved him and that no body else would have me anyway. To which he started to get irritated and say 'well I know that's not true'. I asked him if he trusted me and he said 'yes and no'. 'Yes with other men but no with other things' he said 'you make me paranoid'.

I think this is because I don't open up to him that much but you have to understand that I am watching what I say as to ensure I practice my BPD communication tools properly. So when it comes to a touchy subject I now try to think of the impact my words may have. Therefore on this occasion I changed the subject before it got tricky because I had to leave for work anyway.

But the ambivalence is getting worse. The more I let him away with things the more 'paranoid' he is becoming of my motives to stay with him.

I know from previous conversations he's had with a close friend of mine is that he doesn't feel good enough for me and I wonder if this is where he is going with the paranoia. Although he doesn't express it to me I see it in his eyes how much I hold his heart in my hands and he's so frightened to openly love me in case I hurt him. His only way to hide this is to act indifferent, and almost denying his feeling for me even to himself.

I honestly feel that it needs to be on the cards very soon for us to have a good heart to heart.

I spend my life just leaving him be lately so it's nothing I can't do now FF

[formflier]

 

Paranoia is the central part of my wife's stuff.  In truth she is probably more PPD that BPD. 

If you can find a way to validate or ask about an emotion and then validate it, you could get some good results there.

For me, it seemed that if I could avoid invalidation, the paranoia was at an acceptable level.  In other words, proving yourself loving to him is likely the wrong approach.

Full disclosure:  There was a while there where my wife was searching for my love children and secret families (I supposedly married my second wife in our barn in a secret ceremony).  So, we may be talking about apples and oranges when it comes to paranoia. 

Right now she believes I am plotting to take the children. 

Anyway, paranoia is tough stuff.  Don't invalidate, let them sort it out.

I noticed that you said you put up with him trying to make you jealous for about 30 minutes.  To me, that seems way too long.  If he is still halfway rational, I would ask him directly about it "are you trying to make me jealous?"  If yes, be ready to validate.

If he says no, believe him and change the subject.  Don't go back to the original subject.

Questions like "do you trust me", yeah, stay away from that.  to a pwBPD that is a fastball.  They will knock it out of the park.

Note:  With paranoid person, don't talk about trust.  Instead, talk about showing respect.  For instance,

":)on't you trust me, I just need to be alone for a few minutes, "  Bad, not going to go well at all.

"Please respect my need for privacy, I need a few minutes alone."  Might go ok, and you get the same result, time alone, for whatever you need to do.



FF

[Lou12]

Thanks FF I need to keep working on the validation. Sometimes I'm caught unawares and don't express what I mean very well.

I know I did use some validation within the conversation but I'm finding it hard to recall exactly what was said, probably because I'm presently quite tired.

Oh my that is extreme paranoia from your wife! I've read lots of your post and I have to say your amazing how well you deal with things

Yes I'll give the respect route a go rather than addressing trust. It's ironic because when I am given advice about how to communicate with my bf it's very similar to how I speak to my children. I need to bear this line of communication in mind when talking to my bf. Suppose I still see him as an adult with adult emotions because he's so high functioning and hides his feeling a lot.

[Notwendy]

Even though there is an emotional cost to the drama in our interactions, there is also a payoff- otherwise we wouldn't be involved in them. The payoff is something we may not easily see- but it could be a familiar pattern and that brings some kind of comfort/familiarity to them, even if we are distressed by them.

In my case, the drama triangle and co-dependency was the pattern in my FOO. Not only is it familiar, I didn't even know how to relate in a close relationship in any other way. I wasn't a high drama person- I was the rescuer, soother, caretaker -and that included emotional. So, with someone who had difficulty with fears, emotions, there would be an emotional "benefit" to these interactions.

I think in many cases it is the non who decides that this pattern isn't working. Personally, I think it is the projection aspect of it. The person with BPD projects the feelings, but the non does not and seems more aware of the dynamics.  Relationships seem to be in a balance- even a dysfunctional balance. When one person makes changes, it unbalances things in a way. This can happens in any family situation/relationship.The other person may feel uncomfortable with the new situation. The first response is to try to get things back in balance the way they are used to. This is where we can see the extinction burst or other behaviors. The person changing can feel uncomfortable too, and sometimes the relationship can return to familiar patterns.

You have made some positive changes ,and your BF has possibly sensed a change. Even if you think it is better, this change is still change. He is responding in the ways he knows how- his fears that you have someone else, his withdrawing from you.

Long term change can happen when the other partner learns, sometimes by trial and error, that the behaviors and interactions that used to work, don't work anymore. Making changes can be an up and down road- but with a longer term goal that is beneficial. I think that is an underlying fear of the non of changing- that their partner won't like it and find someone else. The other possibility is that the relationship will improve. While there is risk involved, if we don't make changes, things are likely to not change but the possibility of things getting better is a motivator to do so.

[Sunfl0wer]

So it sounds like you are using the tools well... .

I wonder if with all of your disengaging in the drama simply looks to your SO as turning away.

Maybe in the past he did a behavior, got some attention, then felt loved as you turned towards him? It does feel loving when people will stick with us at our worst.  It may have also made you appear more interested in him than you are now that you seem secure enough to not engage in bad behavior.

Oh, reading NotWendy now... .

Payoff makes sense.  Do you think he is missing some payoff?

[Notwendy]

We have to be careful with "payoff" because it can reinforce behaviors that are distressful to us. What we want is to reinforce the behaviors that are not dysfunctional. This requires us being aware of behaviors on our part and others. It also requires us being aware of when a payoff to us reinforced our dysfunction. This awareness helps us deal with our own fears and distress and keeping an eye on the goal. When considering payoffs, we need to be aware that they are balanced with costs. Also know that cost/payoff is personal. For instance an alcoholic chooses the payoff of a drink, even at a significant cost- relationships/health.

In simpler terms, let's say we want to eat healthier and lose some weight. Then- we are presented with a piece of amazing chocolate cake- and we are addicted to it in a way. So the payoff is eating that cake- yum, and the cost is letting go of the goal. If we choose to give up the payoff of the cake, we can reach the goal of being slimmer. Only when the payoff to us of being slim is greater than the payoff of the cake are we motivated to give up the cake.

In the push-pull dance, for me, someone withdrawing would cause me to increase my attention/caring behavior. The payoff for me is that it would ease my fears when someone withdraws. So, if my H withdrew from me, I would get even more affectionate. This also reinforced to him that withdrawal works! He gets attention for it! We were both getting a payoff for this, but the cost was that this is dysfunctional.


If my H senses or feels that I am withdrawing from him ( and it could be completely unrelated- that I am occupied with work or the kids) - then unlike me, he withdraws even more. I think this could go on indefinitely, if I didn't get distressed about it. But my distress is a reason that gets me into this push pull.

I have found that a middle ground place of not being reactive is a good start for me. I try not to reinforce this push pull pattern. I leave my H space to deal with his feelings and try not to jump in and fix things between us. I also have to work on my own feelings during these times. I am hoping a different relationship pattern is developed, one based on taking care of my own feelings and not being reactive or co-dependent.

[Sunfl0wer]

Humm... .

Good points NotWendy

So say I am on a diet and not supposed to eat junk foods, only natural foods... .

I may see and want potato chips.  But if I think about what I am really craving... .Maybe I am craving crunch.  Then I may feel satisfied eating cucumber spears.  However, I could be craving salt.  Then I may be satisfied having a bowl of soup.  Maybe both... .pickles may satisfy me.

I was wondering if Lou could find some way to provide security to BF while he is going through this adjustment period.  

Maybe BF feels Lou is not appearing as needy?  Hence BF not feeling needed.  Then reassurance that BF is valued and needed could be helpful.

Maybe providing some reassurance in a healthy way to the positive expressions (positive reinforcement) of feeling down can help soothe the sting during this adjustment time?

[Notwendy]

That's actually the other part. You just don't stop reinforcing a behavior- the other part is to reinforce the healthy behavior. So, yes, substitute that need for attention with paying attention to a healthier behavior. So yes - give in to that need for crunch with carrot sticks, not potato chips.

So for instance, he wants attention, and so he withdraws or tries to make you jealous in order to get it. How can you reinforce another behavior? Perhaps make a date with him- where you can plan to spend time together instead of reacting to his behavior? Something like that?

[Lou12]

Thanks notwendy that makes sense to me. Yes I'd much rather continue with my plan to ignore certain behaviours as I do see an over all improvement. I will practice improving validation of good behaviour too I sent him an email today about his intermittent ignoring me, I would be keen to know your views on how my communication is with him. I will pm it to you along with his annoying reply!

Sunflower you may have hit on something there about him 'missing some pay off'.

I feel I could validate there with telling him how proud I am of us and how I see an improvement on being able to trust and understand each other more.