How to hold onto reality and not let him "make" me feel guilty

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

This morning I realized how a few of the times my ex pwBPD broke up with me he confided in his separated wife. He sees her when he goes to pick up and drop off his kids and he usually talks to her daily when he calls his kids.

The first time I found this out I wanted to throw up. This time, which is the first time I've actually stuck to breaking up, even in the face off all the crap he pulls at work trying to get back together and make me feel bad, I figured he was confiding in her and kept reminding myself, good luck to them.

SO last week during a discussion of his suicidal thoughts and depression it came up that he was talking to her about it, which I assumed, but hearing it was like, are you f***ing serious? Of course he gets it across that she doesn't like me, but that he also told her (when she asked him) if I were to take him back he would say yes.

Yuck! I felt a slime layer on me after that was over. I got in my car and literally brushed that crap off of me.

So then later again in the week, under the guise of another discussion about his depression it came up again, his talking to her, I guess when he got there Tuesday night to get his kids he was so upset... .I asked him why, if she it the person "who had the biggest negative impact on his self esteem, being married to her for 16 years" is he turning to her? He said b/c she is known.

All of this is just gross, I can't even imagine being in her shoes, but that's NOT my problem, she hasn't done ANYTHING to move the divorce forward, and only puts up road blocks on the RARE occasion he supposedly tried, so that's her problem to deal with.

My point in all of this is I KNOW that's not ok with me, that he confides in her about ME, and then turns to me also to get support and comfort. That is just NOT ok in ANY way. And it used to infuriate me and when I think about it now it does. So WHY am I so quick to brush that aside? I'm already afraid he will try to talk to me tomorrow and I'm thinking of how to avoid that. Why can't I just hold that anger and injustice of the situation and either just say no, not talking to you, or if he gives me crap say, ummmmm you have "T" to turn to, go talk to her.

Not to mention all the 5000000000 other things I know I'm mad about, but somehow overlook every time he talks to me... .

Grrrrrrrr

[apepper21]

This morning I realized how a few of the times my ex pwBPD broke up with me he confided in his separated wife. He sees her when he goes to pick up and drop off his kids and he usually talks to her daily when he calls his kids.

The first time I found this out I wanted to throw up. This time, which is the first time I've actually stuck to breaking up, even in the face off all the crap he pulls at work trying to get back together and make me feel bad, I figured he was confiding in her and kept reminding myself, good luck to them.

SO last week during a discussion of his suicidal thoughts and depression it came up that he was talking to her about it, which I assumed, but hearing it was like, are you f***ing serious? Of course he gets it across that she doesn't like me, but that he also told her (when she asked him) if I were to take him back he would say yes.

Yuck! I felt a slime layer on me after that was over. I got in my car and literally brushed that crap off of me.

So then later again in the week, under the guise of another discussion about his depression it came up again, his talking to her, I guess when he got there Tuesday night to get his kids he was so upset... .I asked him why, if she it the person "who had the biggest negative impact on his self esteem, being married to her for 16 years" is he turning to her? He said b/c she is known.

All of this is just gross, I can't even imagine being in her shoes, but that's NOT my problem, she hasn't done ANYTHING to move the divorce forward, and only puts up road blocks on the RARE occasion he supposedly tried, so that's her problem to deal with.

My point in all of this is I KNOW that's not ok with me, that he confides in her about ME, and then turns to me also to get support and comfort. That is just NOT ok in ANY way. And it used to infuriate me and when I think about it now it does. So WHY am I so quick to brush that aside? I'm already afraid he will try to talk to me tomorrow and I'm thinking of how to avoid that. Why can't I just hold that anger and injustice of the situation and either just say no, not talking to you, or if he gives me crap say, ummmmm you have "T" to turn to, go talk to her.

Not to mention all the 5000000000 other things I know I'm mad about, but somehow overlook every time he talks to me... .

Grrrrrrrr

[patientandclear]

He uses you both for emotional support, and probably is less than truthful with both of you about what is going on with the other.

Once I realized this compartmentalization capacity in my exwBPD, I had a reaction like yours--wanting to take a hot shower and scrape the implications off me. I completely understand, too, the difficulty in keeping all this in mind, when you are missing him. I think we tend to convert others into templates that make sense to us, and for me, the good feelings that I can tell my ex feels for me, would go along with loyalty, constancy and effort. So I kept attributing loyalty constancy and effort to him in my mind, which were not there. That kept me confused.

[apepper21]

He uses you both for emotional support, and probably is less than truthful with both of you about what is going on with the other.

Once I realized this compartmentalization capacity in my exwBPD, I had a reaction like yours--wanting to take a hot shower and scrape the implications off me. I completely understand, too, the difficulty in keeping all this in mind, when you are missing him. I think we tend to convert others into templates that make sense to us, and for me, the good feelings that I can tell my ex feels for me, would go along with loyalty, constancy and effort. So I kept attributing loyalty constancy and effort to him in my mind, which were not there. That kept me confused.

Yes, I assume he is not being honest with either of us, I keep that in mind. I literally felt like there was a slime layer on me, and the same thing happened each time last week when I talked to him about any of this. I felt disappointed in myself and angry at him and like I was in some other "world/reality".

It's not even just thinking about the good things. I get caught up in feeling guilty if I'm not "there for him" as well as the false belief that he is actually happy to be talking to me AND the false sense of validation and acceptance I feel when he DOES turn to me.  And I get afraid of his anger, blaming me and rejection if I were to confront him, or say no, I'm not talking about this. YUCK!

What have you done to help with this? Do you see your ex on a regular basis?

[Lonely_Astro]

It sounds like he's using his estranged wife to invoke a chase from you.  Basically, he's wanting you to chase him because he's tapping into the primal urge we all have to protect and keep what's "ours".  He's 'mentioning' his estranged to you to get you jealous and fight for him.  This is a tactic J used on me often (of course, she was always the 'victim' of these flirtations because she was soo outgoing/like able/nice). That's all it is, a tactic.

At the end of our r/s, J was trying to stay with me (even though she was seeing R on the regular). She would be talking to me and her phone would go off and she'd huff, roll her eyes, and say "ugh, R just text me. He wants to know what I'm doing tonight. I'm not going to respond to him. He's so weird and you're the only weird guy I want in my life."  This was done, no doubt, as the tactic I mentioned above.

Having followed your story, I can see by your writings that you're getting stronger with each day.  Maybe tomorrow will be the day that you just tell him you're done talking to him and to leave you alone.  Maybe it's not, but maybe it will be

I agree with patient that he's using BOTH of you.  I can guarantee that his estranged knows very little (if anything) about you.  I experienced that first hand with J. Compartmentalization is what makes their world go around.  Dont think for a second that he wouldn't hesitate to lie, cheat, or steal whatever he had to in order to keep those 'worlds' from colliding.  I've had J gaslight me multiple times just to keep her lies going, even in the face of undeniable truth.  They will do ANYTHING to keep you in their stable.

I'll give my example. J kept L a secret from me. I had no idea he was in the picture.  She and I had all sorts of personal conversations, even tiptoeing around reconciliation. She was going on and on about how sad she was with me being out of her life and all sorts of confusing things to me (that she will love me always and forever, that she missed "all of me", etc). All the while, she was "head over heels in love" with L.  Supposedly, unbeknownst to me, L was aware her and I were talking like we were.  Do I believe that L had any idea?  I think he knew some of it because I directly addressed it with him right after I found out.  I told him that I was sorry for speaking to his gf, that I hadn't been informed he was around, and I didn't want bad feelings from him by him thinking I was being a douche for talking to her.  He told me there wasn't "from his end" and he appreciated me talking to him.  What I took from that was J had been badmouthing me and led him to believe I had bad mouthed L (which I hadn't). Once again, J used compartmentalization, manipulation, and omission on both of us (I'm presuming L doesn't know the full truth, I don't know... .maybe he does).

Anyway, he's also busting a boundary you set up. You've told him you don't want to talk about "us" yet he keeps doing it.  You keep moving your boundary for him.  It's time to reinstate and reinforce that boundary.  If he starts talking to you about non work related stuff, restate your position and walk away without any other explanation.  You don't owe this guy anything.  Always keep that in mind.  You owe him NOTHING.  Let him go tell T about his problems. Keep saying that.

[apepper21]

Lonely_Astro:

Thanks for saying you can see me getting stronger, that is good to hear from an outsider, it's hard to see sometimes myself!

I know she knows SOMETHING about me b/c I once heard him say on the phone to her that he was at my place. Now I don't know what she knows about, he's told me he's told her many things, including we are together or aren't. But like you said I don't know if any of that is true. I guess I don't even know if the bad things he tells me he's told her about me is true, he could be saying that just to upset me! Ugh... .

I know I keep shifting my boundary, and even HIS  boundary. HE told ME we need to have very limited contact, and work related only. Then the next day he comes to just chit chat... .With implications related to us. So 1: broke the no us talk and 2: broke work only related and VERY brief if at all... .

I WANT to say, I'm not talking about this, if it is about us or even if it's about HIS DEPRESSION, I don't know if I have that in me yet. I get mad that I don't, it's not like he EVER thinks about the impact of ANY of this on me! Like, my position in the company has been totally demoted, I actually TRIED my ass off in the relationship and now he's the victim, HE'S going back and leaning on T, I could go on and on and on!

You are saying that one day, I WILL be able to say that? If I keep saying go talk to T about this, you meant to myself, to remind my he IS, or actually say that to HIM?

thanks!

[Lonely_Astro]

Lonely_Astro:

Thanks for saying you can see me getting stronger, that is good to hear from an outsider, it's hard to see sometimes myself!

I know she knows SOMETHING about me b/c I once heard him say on the phone to her that he was at my place. Now I don't know what she knows about, he's told me he's told her many things, including we are together or aren't. But like you said I don't know if any of that is true. I guess I don't even know if the bad things he tells me he's told her about me is true, he could be saying that just to upset me! Ugh... .

I know I keep shifting my boundary, and even HIS  boundary. HE told ME we need to have very limited contact, and work related only. Then the next day he comes to just chit chat... .With implications related to us. So 1: broke the no us talk and 2: broke work only related and VERY brief if at all... .

I WANT to say, I'm not talking about this, if it is about us or even if it's about HIS DEPRESSION, I don't know if I have that in me yet. I get mad that I don't, it's not like he EVER thinks about the impact of ANY of this on me! Like, my position in the company has been totally demoted, I actually TRIED my ass off in the relationship and now he's the victim, HE'S going back and leaning on T, I could go on and on and on!

You are saying that one day, I WILL be able to say that? If I keep saying go talk to T about this, you meant to myself, to remind my he IS, or actually say that to HIM?

thanks!

Once again, I can guarantee you she doesn't know you two are (ex) lovers.  If she knows that and doesn't care, then she has her own issues.  I bet you dollars to donuts T thinks you're a close friend and that's it.  J did me the same way with her mom.  She wouldn't admit to her mom we were a thing, other than to tell her mom we were "close friends".

Of course he's the victim.  That's how they see the world.  They do these terrible things to people, yet it's never truly their fault.  J said sorry a lot, but she was never truly sorry.  Why?  Because she never corrected her mistakes.  She'd say sorry for a lot of stuff then turn around and do the same stuff again and not 'understand' why I would get upset.  There's zero accountability with them. Trust me, I did the dance for to long.

About telling him to tell it to T: I mean it both ways.  I want to ask you this because you seem strong enough to be asked so... .why do you keep talking to him, honestly?  Are you secretly hoping for reconciliation?  What is the purpose you keep talking to him?

I ask those questions from a place of understanding.  I kept in contact with J because I thought I wanted closure/validation when really it was because I wanted her back.  Just talking to her made me feel 'better', even if I felt even worse for talking to her.  She made an off the cuff comment during one of our final talks that she wasn't sure if she should reply to my text because "not doing so would hurt me but doing so gave me false hope."   I didn't know what that meant at the time, I now do.  She would dance around me until I acknowledged her and we'd talk.  But it was my 'fault' I kept talking to her.  In her mind, I guess, there wasn't a chance for reconciliation (a la "false hope" because she was with L, but she never did tell me about L. I'm sure she'd say she didn't tell me about L to protect me, which isn't true.  She didn't tell me about L because she's a coward.  She's a pathetic user, a loser that'll never change, she'll keep bullying people.  Your ex is the exact same way: he's a coward. He's a loser.  And he's a user.  He's a bully.

Do you know how to treat a bully?  Stand up to them. Take their perceived power from them and watch them scurry away from you down the hall like J did me the other day. This loser doesn't hold your key to happiness. You took a wrong turn and got lost in life. So what?  Turn the car around and find your way home. Leave him in the rear view mirror. He'll survive, just like he did before you. He'll get smaller and smaller in your rearview until he's finally out of sight.

Move forward, not back.  I know you're scared, that's ok. Just do it like a band aide. Rip it off.  Tomorrow if he starts going on about something personal, just walk away. It's the only way they get the message. Trust me.

[apepper21]

Lonely_Astro:

Thanks for saying you can see me getting stronger, that is good to hear from an outsider, it's hard to see sometimes myself!

I know she knows SOMETHING about me b/c I once heard him say on the phone to her that he was at my place. Now I don't know what she knows about, he's told me he's told her many things, including we are together or aren't. But like you said I don't know if any of that is true. I guess I don't even know if the bad things he tells me he's told her about me is true, he could be saying that just to upset me! Ugh... .

I know I keep shifting my boundary, and even HIS  boundary. HE told ME we need to have very limited contact, and work related only. Then the next day he comes to just chit chat... .With implications related to us. So 1: broke the no us talk and 2: broke work only related and VERY brief if at all... .

I WANT to say, I'm not talking about this, if it is about us or even if it's about HIS DEPRESSION, I don't know if I have that in me yet. I get mad that I don't, it's not like he EVER thinks about the impact of ANY of this on me! Like, my position in the company has been totally demoted, I actually TRIED my ass off in the relationship and now he's the victim, HE'S going back and leaning on T, I could go on and on and on!

You are saying that one day, I WILL be able to say that? If I keep saying go talk to T about this, you meant to myself, to remind my he IS, or actually say that to HIM?

thanks!

Once again, I can guarantee you she doesn't know you two are (ex) lovers.  If she knows that and doesn't care, then she has her own issues.  I bet you dollars to donuts T thinks you're a close friend and that's it.  J did me the same way with her mom.  She wouldn't admit to her mom we were a thing, other than to tell her mom we were "close friends".

Of course he's the victim.  That's how they see the world.  They do these terrible things to people, yet it's never truly their fault.  J said sorry a lot, but she was never truly sorry.  Why?  Because she never corrected her mistakes.  She'd say sorry for a lot of stuff then turn around and do the same stuff again and not 'understand' why I would get upset.  There's zero accountability with them. Trust me, I did the dance for to long.

About telling him to tell it to T: I mean it both ways.  I want to ask you this because you seem strong enough to be asked so... .why do you keep talking to him, honestly?  Are you secretly hoping for reconciliation?  What is the purpose you keep talking to him?

I ask those questions from a place of understanding.  I kept in contact with J because I thought I wanted closure/validation when really it was because I wanted her back.  Just talking to her made me feel 'better', even if I felt even worse for talking to her.  She made an off the cuff comment during one of our final talks that she wasn't sure if she should reply to my text because "not doing so would hurt me but doing so gave me false hope."   I didn't know what that meant at the time, I now do.  She would dance around me until I acknowledged her and we'd talk.  But it was my 'fault' I kept talking to her.  In her mind, I guess, there wasn't a chance for reconciliation (a la "false hope" because she was with L, but she never did tell me about L. I'm sure she'd say she didn't tell me about L to protect me, which isn't true.  She didn't tell me about L because she's a coward.  She's a pathetic user, a loser that'll never change, she'll keep bullying people.  Your ex is the exact same way: he's a coward. He's a loser.  And he's a user.  He's a bully.

Do you know how to treat a bully?  Stand up to them. Take their perceived power from them and watch them scurry away from you down the hall like J did me the other day. This loser doesn't hold your key to happiness. You took a wrong turn and got lost in life. So what?  Turn the car around and find your way home. Leave him in the rear view mirror. He'll survive, just like he did before you. He'll get smaller and smaller in your rearview until he's finally out of sight.

Move forward, not back.  I know you're scared, that's ok. Just do it like a band aide. Rip it off.  Tomorrow if he starts going on about something personal, just walk away. It's the only way they get the message. Trust me.

Lots of good questions here!

I am pretty sure she at one point knew about me as a lover b/c she gave him two letters (at separate times) in which she referred to me as a whore, although not my name, so you could be right. Oh my god, she might not know anything? She knows from credit card statements that he would be in my town and went away. But you are saying she might now know it's with me? WOW. I have always thought she has major problems for putting up with his crap, him telling her about me and her not just wanting divorce DONE, but I think she may have become dependent on him. I CAN see him telling her simply to upset HER! but who knows what he's told her. We can assume it's NOT everything he's told me he has, and you are saying he could have made all of this up, every thing he has told me he's told her.

Why do I keep talking to him? A very good question and I'm not afraid of ANY question you have for me in any of this. I know I should stop talking to him. So why so I keep doing so? Well the reasons I tell myself are I'm afraid of his reaction. We are a 14 person company. I've been afraid of his anger, his rejection, him never talking to me again. Losing his respect. I do NOT want to be with him, I know this. I AM afraid of losing his "respect" and for some messed up reason I "like" that he comes to me. However, I am starting NOT to like it, especially now that I DO know he is leaning on her too, and he comes and goes as he pleases.

So bottom line, I'm afraid.

He IS a user, and a coward, a MAJOR coward and a MAJOR USER! He's always used me when he wants and pushes me aside when i'm inconvenient. Now that I'm not there and saying no, he's all upset he's not in control. I've not thought of him as a bully, but you are right. He bullies thru depression and moping. He knows if he gets angry, I'll be like FINE, be angry, have fun with that. His depression makes it hard for me to stick up to him... .Arghhhhhh I'm so angry.

So just walk away. If he gets personal, even if it seems harmless, like asks about a movie or something, just walk away? Don't even say I'm not talking about that, just leave? Wow, that would feel so powerful, perhaps not at the time, but thinking about doing that feels powerful. Until I start thinking of him talking all happy with anyone at work. Then I feel like crap... .It doesn't matter that they don't know who he is, I do and that is all that matters... .I could punch myself for ever getting into this in the first place. I look back over things I wrote (from the beginning b/c even then I was writing things down so that I wouldn't forget for when he changed things around, so I knew I wasn't crazy). I knew then he was playing games with me.

[Lonely_Astro]

Who knows what he has or hasn't told her, pepper. That's not your concern. But one thing is certain: they're like icebergs. There's the surface you can see, the part just under the surface that you get a glimpse of here and there and there's the deep dark depth of stuff you'll never see.

I can understand where you're coming from. You're sill in FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt). You stay out of fear (afraid of his reaction, afraid you're somehow tainted from all this too, afraid of the unknown of a life without him), obligation (you want him to 'respect' you and feel obligated to stick around and listen to him because if you upkeep your promises to him, maybe he will to), and guilt (dealing with HIS depression and what he may/may not do if you were to leave). I get it. I've been there. 

I understand you work in a small company. Is he your boss?  I ask because otherwise, so what if he gets mad?  I mean, he's not going to act out at work because he can hold it together enough there to keep a job. He fears people finding out he's a fraud. He'll do anything and everything to keep them from finding out he has mental issues. J is the exact same way. J has most of our co workers convinced she's a caring, loving, all American girl. She's not. I know the truth. So do you.

You have to decide when the conversation is 'personal'. When it starts to make you uncomfortable, that's when it's time to exit the conversation. It's ok to tell him you're done talking and walk away.  I promise he'll try to talk to you again. He has a fear of abandonment. It's not about you... .at all.  But, this isn't about him or what he wants, it's ALL ABOUT YOU.  I emphasize that on purpose. You've spent to much time trying to accommodate him. For once in all the time you've been with him, this isn't about him... .it's about you.  That's scary. It's different.  Take his 'power' from him. He's a boogeyman.  Don't give him any power and shine the light on him.

Go live your life. Let him wallow in his own self pity.  He doesn't matter anymore. You deserve soo much better.

[philo beto]

apepper21,

funny every time I hop on the board to see an update another scenario is spelled out in a thread that i can totally empathize with.

My ex has not been diagnosed but she fits the bill.

When we reconnected she was still married unhappily (bankrupted her, she worked while he played, closeted homosexual, never touches her, etc victim) he truly has NPD traits (like her father) i was going thru divorce of a 14 year relationship was weak, broke off the affair multiple times only for her to show up randomly (stalking) at my place of work and home. Felt good to be wanted and i could rescue the damsel

After 2! years of I'm leaving any day and 17 years (she told me they almost  divorced after 1 year, 3 years 5 etc) she was out.

We got together then the fun started. I could not get him out of our life ! The worst part is. HE CAME OUT OF THE CLOSET, HE IS GAY. Why would you want someone who lied to you had two kids with you, basically was not who he said was for 17 years be so close.  That is sick in itself. She totally used him to destroy and chance of emotional intimacy we could build.

1. she had dinner every friday night with him and kids

2. called, emailed and texted non stop

3. wanted me to go on vacation with him and the kids

4. went to friends parties with him

5. took him on multiple vacations without me

6. Invited him to a birthday party i thru (her dad and brother in law hate him and flipped out)

7. when i had a big personal issue i confided in her, he gave her advice to give me.

8. spent xmas morning with him and kids

9. paid his healthcare

There is so much more, its actually embarrassing reading it. When i questioned it the reply "i love you not him, he's gay, I'm doing it for the kids". ugh. She was going thru divorce i was trying to be understanding, what a dummy.

I did this, i put up with this though, I'm not a victim. Need to work on myself and never ever let it happen again.

The silver lining in this, we didn't get married. I walked away enough and stood up for myself just enough that she knew she could not control me totally. Of course she used my anger against me while never accepting her emotional abuse as reasons for me snapping from time to time, however it saved me from a bad mistake, this fact that I was blind to till recently.