Thought he wanted to recycle. Was wrong I think and I'm hurting

[Larmoyant]

This is long and I apologise. I just need to get it out because I'm in pain.

My ex rang a couple of nights ago triggering hope that he wanted to recycle, because it’s a way to stop this pain. But he’d only called to find out how and why I thought of him so badly.   
 
He seemed to want to bully me into submission that he hasn’t caused me any hurt and that he is a good person. He said I am misguided and listen to the wrong people. I should trust him, not others. He’d provided me with care, love and support, but “God knows why” because he got nothing in return. I’d treated him abysmally and have continued to attack his character. It went on, my perspective about us is totally wrong. Apparently, I twist everything to make my emotions appear rational and convince myself that what I’ve experienced is abuse. He said that I had engineered situations in the past to make it look like he’d abused me and that I was planning to cause him trouble and demanded a list of anyone I’ve spoken to about him. Said that I had ultimately destroyed our relationship because I am a liar and wanted other men. There was more, but hopefully, you get the gist.

During this he asked me to name one time he had ‘really’ abused me. Head spinning, struggling to keep my head above water, I mentioned a time when he’d thrown me out of his car at an unknown shopping centre miles from home. Far from the worst one, but it sprang to mind. He outright denied doing this saying I’d chosen to get out of the car because I’d wanted to get a bus back!  Trying my best to keep calm and stop my head from falling off I asked why I would have done that. Can he really not remember that he was raging at me? He said he was only raging because I had been eyeing up a man in a store (different incident, a few weeks before) and that I’d wanted to get a bus so I could go back to him!

I tried again. What about him pursuing other women whilst trying to get back with me knowing that my mother was seriously ill. How can you want to marry me one minute then be with another woman the next. He point blank refused to discuss this so I asked him to confirm whether or not he has someone else. No answer. Tried again. Still no answer.

That was enough for me I lost it and told him to, “go away”.

Unfortunately, it continued via text the next morning with him continuing to blame me, refusing to acknowledge any of my pain and worse refusing to tell me whether or not he had someone else now. It was pretty bad ending up with me threatening to call the police if he continued to hassle me only to experience pain afterwards because now he probably won’t contact me again. Please help me here. I am going insane!

I’m also angry. He comes into my life, wrecks it, blames me for everything, refuses to say if he has a new gf, but now wants me to remember him as a good person.
Well, I’m not doing that. I’m not forgiving him for what he’s done. I can barely forgive myself for handing over the reins of my life to a mentally unstable person. I feel compassion for him because I understand that pwBPD experience severe psychological pain, but what about my pain. I’m on the receiving end of his. What about my experience? This is hopeless. I’m really hurting.

[hope2727]

So sorry you experienced that. You are not losing it. All those things happened. They were totally abuse.

Remember ... .if people want us to speak well of them they should behave better. The end.

Hope you are able to realize what a mess he is and that it is messing with your head. The damage is measurable.

Take care of yourself.

[steelwork]

Dude, I am so sorry. That is the last vestige of control he thinks he can have over you: control of your thoughts about how badly he treated you. That tells you right there that he is seriously, seriously mentally ill. You are only protecting what belongs to every sentient being on this planet: the right to your truth about your own experiences.

[heartandwhole]

I'm sorry you are hurting, Larmoyant.    Please understand that he does not experience and/or perceive reality in the way you do. Read that sentence again. He can't be the person that you want him to be and he can't give you what you long for. He just can't.

My question: Why are you looking to him to take care of your heart? When he clearly is not only incapable, but not willing? That is your job, Larmoyant. No one else's. You're the one.

I know it's hard, and many of us haven't learned how to be here for ourselves. But we can learn. How? My T said just like learning anything else: read about it, ask people who know, practice, practice, practice.

Larmoyant, it's time to step off the drama train and turn toward yourself and be present for that little girl whose heart is broken. She needs you. 

heartandwhole

[Larmoyant]

Just want to say thank you so much for being here. Having a really bad day, but I'll respond tomorrow. So confused. So much to think about. Thank you.

[hope2727]

Hun he didn't want to recycle he wanted you to validate his revisionist history. You can't do that. IT is the ultimate form of gas lighting.

Mine wanted something similar. He wanted me to come to his psychiatrist apt so he could tele how much I hurt him. Told him I would but I would be bringing PROOF of all the situations he claimed happened that didn't. I told him one lie and I would stand up and leave. Needless to say the apt never happened.

Stay strong. Be at peace.

Let some time pass. Expensive ice cream helps I swear. Have a decent day.

[Larmoyant]

My question: Why are you looking to him to take care of your heart? When he clearly is not only incapable, but not willing? That is your job, Larmoyant. No one else's. You're the one.

heartandwhole

I don't know the answer to this question. I’m in a terrible mess right now. He clearly triggers all my insecurities. So many times I come away from an encounter with him feeling helpless. It always seems like a battle. Him trying to crush something in me. I try to hold onto my truth. I don’t let him win, but right this minute it feels like he has.

I have two things going on.

1. Why does he keep calling me if he doesn't want me? I'm trying to understand. I know that some pwBPD find it hard to let go of an attachment, but why? I'm missing something. Also, I've read that they believe they are inherently evil. Is that why he's twisting history so he appears the good guy and I'm the bad one? Is he fighting feelings of guilt? He seems to want me to remember him as a good person and when I refuse to deny his abuse he starts to devalue me. Is that why he's calling?

2. Why am I putting myself through this? Because it's too painful to let go. It's because of the little girl whose heart is broken. She doesn't want to let go.

[Larmoyant]

That is the last vestige of control he thinks he can have over you: control of your thoughts about how badly he treated you. That tells you right there that he is seriously, seriously mentally ill. You are only protecting what belongs to every sentient being on this planet: the right to your truth about your own experiences.

This fits, thank you. But, why does he want control over my thoughts about how badly he treated me?

[Larmoyant]

He wanted me to come to his psychiatrist apt so he could tele how much I hurt him.

hope2727, why did he want you to do that?

[fromheeltoheal]

Hi L-

You've had a rough few days it seems, and welcome back.

1. Why does he keep calling me if he doesn't want me?

And the follow-up question is what do you want?

I'm trying to understand. I know that some pwBPD find it hard to let go of an attachment, but why?

All borderlines do, it's the core of the disorder.  Someone who didn't successfully detach from their primary caregiver and make it through the subsequent abandonment depression when they were developing, necessary steps in becoming an autonomous individual, then spends a lifetime attaching to people to feel whole, and can feel like they literally don't exist without an attachment.

Also, I've read that they believe they are inherently evil. Is that why he's twisting history so he appears the good guy and I'm the bad one? Is he fighting feelings of guilt? He seems to want me to remember him as a good person and when I refuse to deny his abuse he starts to devalue me. Is that why he's calling?

Remember BPD is a shame-based disorder, so someone full of shame feels they are "bad", and attach to and mirror someone else to take on the "good" they see in them.  And when it doesn't work, the shame creeps in, unacceptable, so he seeks external validation from you to make the shame go away, and then when you won't give it to him he resorts to projection, dump his shtty opinion of himself on you and then slam you for it, making him feel better.

2. Why am I putting myself through this? Because it's too painful to let go. It's because of the little girl whose heart is broken. She doesn't want to let go.

You know how an alcoholic needs to hit bottom?  That's the point where continuing to drink is more painful than not drinking, a sea change.  So you could wait until the pain of communicating with him is more painful than not, or you could wage a preemptive strike right now and say never, ever again.  And the pain won't last very long, and you'll come out the other side stronger, we promise.

[Larmoyant]

Hi heeltoheal, I still haven't worked out the quote thing properly, but have done it this way. I hope it's ok.

 C<|||And the follow-up question is what do you want?

My first non-thinking, instinctual response is ‘I want him back’, but I just read one of your responses to VitaminC where you discuss values. I made a list of my own (are values the same as wants?) and came up with ‘security, stability, kindness, compassion, honesty, trustworthiness, loyalty, and love’. He has provided none of those things so I don’t want him back. I know deep down that I need to provide those things for myself. I’m on the edge, just about to take the leap of faith, but quite terrified to. If that makes any sense whatsoever?

C<|||All borderlines do, it's the core of the disorder.

Yet, I’ve read on here that so many abruptly leave and don’t come back. Is that because they’ve found a replacement? Could it be that my ex hasn’t found a suitable new person yet? Someone with poor boundaries I mean, like mine were?

 C<|||Remember BPD is a shame-based disorder, so someone full of shame feels they are "bad", and attach to and mirror someone else to take on the "good" they see in them.  And when it doesn't work, the shame creeps in, unacceptable, so he seeks external validation from you to make the shame go away, and then when you won't give it to him he resorts to projection, dump his shtty opinion of himself on you and then slam you for it, making him feel better.

This is helpful, thank you. It perhaps explains why he wants to be friends with me. Do you think that at some level he realises he was abusive? He’s had a series of short-term relationships before me and all of them ended badly. The last one threatened him with the police and said he needed a psychiatrist. Don’t they realise they have something to do with this? Is projection, as a defence from feelings of shame, temporary or permanent?

 C<|||You know how an alcoholic needs to hit bottom?  That's the point where continuing to drink is more painful than not drinking, a sea change.  So you could wait until the pain of communicating with him is more painful than not, or you could wage a preemptive strike right now and say never, ever again.  And the pain won't last very long, and you'll come out the other side stronger, we promise.

Oh dear. It feels like rock bottom. I’m trying to build up some strength, knock some sense into myself perhaps, so I can launch a preemptive strike. I like the idea, but I’m scared of any more pain.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hi L-

My first non-thinking, instinctual response is ‘I want him back’, but I just read one of your responses to VitaminC where you discuss values. I made a list of my own (are values the same as wants?) and came up with ‘security, stability, kindness, compassion, honesty, trustworthiness, loyalty, and love’.

There are personal values, the ones we live our lives by, and our lives can sure go off the rails when we violate them, and then there are the values we want from a partner and in a relationship; they can be different but are usually related, like if you value honesty you probably won't be into a liar.

It's a great exercise to determine our own, look for conflicts, prioritize them, and live by them, live them.  This is a great time, when we're knocked on our ass, because we get to rebuild a life anyway we want, might as well be in accordance with our true values yes?

FYI, a values conflict is valuing adventure and security at the same time, for example; how does that work?  Not impossible, but something to think about when we're prioritizing.

All borderlines do, it's the core of the disorder.

Yet, I’ve read on here that so many abruptly leave and don’t come back. Is that because they’ve found a replacement? Could it be that my ex hasn’t found a suitable new person yet? Someone with poor boundaries I mean, like mine were?

Never say never, my ex resurfaced after 25 years (!), although borderlines do hate to lose attachments, and may stay gone because the shame they feel over what went down is stronger than the need to stay attached, or a new attachment or attachments is eliminating the fear for now, or they've done mental gymnastics so thoroughly that an ex is completely eliminated from consciousness, or is now completely hated, all to feel better.  Everyone's different, although one commonality is that if a borderline does show up, it's usually as if nothing bad ever happened, and off to the races we go, like I did, another idealization period, and the cycle repeats.

Do you think that at some level he realises he was abusive?

Maybe, although he probably wouldn't take responsibility for it, you "made him do it".  Plus, if someone is terminally ill we don't get too upset when they snap at us or healthcare people, same here, it's not terminal but it is painful to live with this disorder.  Of course when we were expecting something different and see it sometimes, and see no reason for it, it becomes unacceptable quick.

He’s had a series of short-term relationships before me and all of them ended badly. The last one threatened him with the police and said he needed a psychiatrist. Don’t they realise they have something to do with this? Is projection, as a defence from feelings of shame, temporary or permanent?

The disorder is permanent, the tools are used as needed.  Threatened him with the cops and told him he needed a psychiatrist, how perfect, and I wonder what we told himself or her to not take that to heart?

Oh dear. It feels like rock bottom. I’m trying to build up some strength, knock some sense into myself perhaps, so I can launch a preemptive strike. I like the idea, but I’m scared of any more pain.

Remember, letting go doesn't take any strength or effort, you just let go and let it fall away, although it does require a decision, a real one, where you cut off any other possibility.  I know you're getting there, keep going... .

Take care of you!

[Zinnia21]

What you've described is the hellish nonsense I'm also very familiar. It's like falling down a multi level rabbit hole. Finally at the bottom, no wait, there's more!
They twist and warp and deflect. Mine certainly did. Though, he does have some sort of a conscience and admitted he was wrong in some of his actions, but that clarity lasted a very tiny amount of time and got washed away with the illogical blaming once again.

I hate it when you think there's hope but they're really just calling to validate themselves. Not only are we tortured by what they've already done, they say they did it because of something we did etc, and I just get this sense my ex will never know what I've been through after some of his episodes. And if I try to explain how it felt, he just thinks I'm trying to make him feel bad.

Our last hangout a week ago suddenly turned into one of his blame fests, and the end of the relationship... .again. The thing that pushed me over the edge was him saying "maybe you should learn from this experience so you don't f up your next relationship!". I've been nothing but patient and loving and all the rest, he turned it right around in his head. I'd had enough too and told him to go. I sent one last strongly worded text about what I thought and then blocked him!

I'm in no contact zone now. Which is hard... .Thanks for reminding me why, I really needed that.
Pm me if you want to talk about it:) Somehow we will pull through!

[heartandwhole]

So many times I come away from an encounter with him feeling helpless.

I understand what you mean, and I know this hurts. I just want you to remember that you have options. There is something you could do to stop this cycle.

1. Why does he keep calling me if he doesn't want me?

He keeps calling because he can. He gets what he needs out of it. What about you?

2. Why am I putting myself through this? Because it's too painful to let go. It's because of the little girl whose heart is broken. She doesn't want to let go.

Of course    That little girl is afraid. Mine was, too. It's so understandable to be wary of walking out into the unknown. The little one needs help, though, right? She is too young to know how to do this, she's just scared and wants to feel safe again. She needs someone to soothe her fears, to reassure her that she is not alone in this. That she is safe and someone cares about her more than anything.

Reach deep into yourself, Larmoyant. Is there a stronger, wiser part of you who can comfort that little girl? A part of you that knows what you need to do? You are working on a PhD. That takes commitment and discipline. Can you access that part of yourself to help you in this situation?

As heeltoheal said, we are all on our own timetables as far as readiness to make changes, or to let go of situations that aren't working anymore. We care about you, and are here for you in any stage.  

heartandwhole

[Larmoyant]

Never say never, my ex resurfaced after 25 years (!)

25 years! That's a scary thought. My ex once told me that he probably won't like me when I'm older so I think I'll be pretty safe!

Threatened him with the cops and told him he needed a psychiatrist, how perfect, and I wonder what we told himself or her to not take that to heart?

I wonder  . He did say she wasn't a nice person, apparently she 'cheated' on him. Everyone seems to cheat on this poor man!

I know you're getting there, keep going... .

I needed to hear this, thank you.

[married21years]

hi

we are all getting there at our own speed

it is a journey and a process but the steps are similar as we are all on the same path heading in the same direction

 

[Larmoyant]

Of course    That little girl is afraid. Mine was, too. It's so understandable to be wary of walking out into the unknown. The little one needs help, though, right? She is too young to know how to do this, she's just scared and wants to feel safe again. She needs someone to soothe her fears, to reassure her that she is not alone in this. That she is safe and someone cares about her more than anything.

Reach deep into yourself, Larmoyant. Is there a stronger, wiser part of you who can comfort that little girl? A part of you that knows what you need to do? You are working on a PhD. That takes commitment and discipline. Can you access that part of yourself to help you in this situation?

heartandwhole, this had me in floods of tears. Painful, but necessary. I'm getting in touch with 'what's hurting'. Facing up to what it is he's triggering in me. If I can do this then I think it's all going to be ok.

As heeltoheal said, we are all on our own timetables as far as readiness to make changes, or to let go of situations that aren't working anymore. We care about you, and are here for you in any stage.  

I'm off again! Any kindness coming my way makes me bawl these days. Thank you so much for helping me.

[Larmoyant]

What you've described is the hellish nonsense I'm also very familiar. It's like falling down a multi level rabbit hole. Finally at the bottom, no wait, there's more!

I've been falling down the rabbit hole for 6 months now. I ended it 6 months ago! If I'd been able to go NC I would probably be much better now.

As far as having a conscience, mine used to show signs of having one, sometimes at least, but not anymore. On occasion he’d meet me part way, but I believe it was just pure manipulation to keep me in the relationship. You know, own up to some of it, she’ll stay, but I’ll make her pay later.

As for the dreaded hope. I got caught up in it, again, last Friday and it hurt. Need to stop doing that.

I’ve sent you a message. We will pull through this!

[VitaminC]

I'm off again! Any kindness coming my way makes me bawl these days. Thank you so much for helping me.

Oh crikey, do I know this well! Anyone being a tiny bit nice or sweet bringing me to tears. Not always at "appropriate" times either.

What I took from it is just that I was at a particularly vulnerable, shaken, and raw moment. Moment can mean a few days, a few weeks, whatever. Or it can come and go.

But it does go.

It's a time to be gentle with yourself - as you would be with a sick child. Just go easy and do nice and gentle things and avoid situations that put you under pressure or stress of any kind. You know yourself what they are for you.

Fromheeltoheal said it so well: "Remember, letting go doesn't take any strength or effort, you just let go and let it fall away, although it does require a decision, a real one, where you cut off any other possibility.  I know you're getting there, keep going... ."

That's rather beautiful. Letting go can be like exhaling after having held your breath for so long that you're really hurt from all that carbon dioxide in the system. Or is it carbon monoxide. You know the one I mean.

 

[hope2727]

He originally told me he wanted me to hear how I had hurt him so that his team could help him sort out his distorted thoughts. Then later he told me he didn't want me there because he didn't want me to just act like the victim. I of course told him "I am a victim its not an act"

Who knows why he does what he does. He feels each thing he feels in each moment sincerely but they are isolated moments with no coherence.