Role Reversal

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Have been reading around the forum quite a lot and a couple of thoughts have come up.

The first one is what is a healthy/appropriate/adult period of time before one declares one's love to a new partner? Probably in a really healthy world it would take quite a long time. But in the world of new r/s when you feel good, excited and start to care and think about the other person, I think that this is enough emotional motivation to use the word ‘love’. It conveys feeling and intent, and if it comes from deep down inside I’m good.

This happened to me after about 3 weeks; but it would seem many of the commentators on this site would say wow! That’s fast?

Funnily enough my STBexuB/NPDW said exactly the same thing! Yep I declared my love for her after about 3 weeks and she looked a little unsettled in fact quite alarmed……and said hold on now you’re going a bit fast, slow down. I felt wrong footed, a little strange.

Also from reading it appears pwBPD tend to head into r/s pretty quickly, and my W (according to her) was basically single for a few years prior to us getting together. I was too which is now quite a relief!

My point is, that it would seem that I was the one to head ‘quickly’ into this r/s, while my generally B/NPD leaning W. was not!

Am I alone?

[earlgrey]

Have been reading around the forum quite a lot and a couple of thoughts have come up.

The first one is what is a healthy/appropriate/adult period of time before one declares one's love to a new partner? Probably in a really healthy world it would take quite a long time. But in the world of new r/s when you feel good, excited and start to care and think about the other person, I think that this is enough emotional motivation to use the word ‘love’. It conveys feeling and intent, and if it comes from deep down inside I’m good.

This happened to me after about 3 weeks; but it would seem many of the commentators on this site would say wow! That’s fast?

Funnily enough my STBexuB/NPDW said exactly the same thing! Yep I declared my love for her after about 3 weeks and she looked a little unsettled in fact quite alarmed……and said hold on now you’re going a bit fast, slow down. I felt wrong footed, a little strange.

Also from reading it appears pwBPD tend to head into r/s pretty quickly, and my W (according to her) was basically single for a few years prior to us getting together. I was too which is now quite a relief!

My point is, that it would seem that I was the one to head ‘quickly’ into this r/s, while my generally B/NPD leaning W. was not!

Am I alone?

[hope2727]

I knew I loved my partner with BPD wishing a few weeks. I just did. The truth is I still do. I told him I loved him at about a month I think. Sorry it was several years ago so I couldn't swear to that timeline. It slipped out when we were talking and saying goodbye one night. I just knew it and in truth I don't regret it.

I think every relationship is different. I once had a partner that I didn't know I loved until  whole year of friendship had gone by. But once I knew I just knew. I loved him very deeply and in truth I he still holds a special spot in my heart. He is happy and I am happy for him but he is and always will be loved.

I miss my ex pwBPD. I love him very much. I just can't live with his choices of behaviours. But I love him no less. So fast or slow we feel what we feel when we feel it.

[earlgrey]

what I might be trying to say is I notice some traits in my behaviour which make me go 

in particular, now that divorce is happening, I do not want to stay alone, I want a new r/s... .

time to reflect and grow... .nah! not interested!

but given what I have just experienced and my own expanded awareness (i like to think) will my emotional parameters (SO selection process) be any different?

I feel 'compelled' (I want to) to pursue another romantic r/s, but it would seem this kind of behaviour is associated with our 'labelled uB/NPD' partner. Not me a 'non'!

Then if I want a r/s I wonder if it is not better to try and rebuild the present one. I am able to rationalise this bit and know this is NOT a wise choice.

I seem to think I am addicted to love and relationships. None have them have ever really worked, yet I am drawn to them, ever full of hope that I will find what ever it is I am looking for... .probably some kind of womb like haven that A) is impossible and B) probably would walk right on by even if it jumped right at me.

I thought the divorce bit was going to put this whole episode to bed... .not yet.

If you are still here thanks!

[half-life]

I am in a similar place, not wanting to be alone and almost desperately want a new relationship. I am aware this is not the most healthy approach.

Perhaps we can revisit the "Undecided" board more often and remind ourselves of how rushing into relationship might lead to disaster down the road.

[drained1996]

Like you two, and really most every other human being... .I wanted a new r/s after detachment.  Earlgrey, are you really detached if you still contemplate rebuilding?  I'd be interested in your answer... .
Here is what my process showed me... .WANTING a healthy adult relationship, and being ABLE to be part of one are two different things.  We all had a play in our BPD r/s's, and without reflecting, and growing from the knowledge the experience can give us... .we have not bettered ourselves for us... .much less a future partner.  
Just my 2 cents... .

And Earlgrey, about your question of how early is too early to express the "love" word... .I'm a little up in the air myself.  Being in a new r/s (just over 2 months), that word is being used.  I feel self aware that it is a fresh relationship full of dopamine... .and that mature intimate and emotional love is something that takes time.  I've discussed that openly and even make comments when I notice dopamine induced feelings and statements from either of us.  I have to trust my own self awareness, and that being aware of what red flags are in others is enough to keep me safe from another PD partner.  :)oes the speed of these feelings scare me a little... .yes... .but that is the only thing I've noticed that COULD be a red flag.  If any other boundaries get pushed, I trust I will notice and talk about them openly too.  

[BowlOfPetunias]

Part of the reason I have put up with an abusive relationship is that I have always had low self-esteem when it comes to relationships.  Part of it is OCD related.  Part of it comes from the fact that my conservative grandmother prevented me from starting to date when all the other kids did.  By the time I got to college, I felt embarrassed that I had no idea what to do.

Enter J, my first BPD relationship.  She was very quick to declare love.  From the point of view of someone who was relieved to be pursued by someone instead of having to pursue her and was afraid that he would never have another relationship, I was quick to latch on.  She seized on my insecurities and fed them so that I would stay with her.  Fortunately, I came to my senses and ended it after about three months.

I was quick to fall in love with some of the other women I dated, such as L.  Looking back, I can see that L was not a good match for me.  But she was someone, and I was afraid of having no one.  She dumped me and it crushed me.  It turns out she had been seeing someone else anyway.  She also told me that the reason was that she was "much more sexually experienced" than I was.  Looking back, I think the fact that I am an agnostic really bothered her.  To me, religion is so irrelevant that it had not crossed my mind that I would reject someone because of her religion (with the exception of someone who used her religion to justify hate, violence, and discrimination.)

Things went pretty fast with my BPD (not as bad as J) wife as well.  Honestly, one of the big barriers to seriously considering divorce is that I would hate be back on the dating scene because of my lack of confidence (and also some medical issues that have come up to further undermine my confidence.)  She has threatened divorce in the midst of fights over the years, but I have brought it up only once--it was a big fight after she called me a coward for waiting at a red light instead of stepping in front of oncoming vehicles as she did. 

My therapist links my willingness to be in abusive relationships back to my experience being treated badly by my family while growing up--I learned to take abuse.  And, as many of us know, being in a relationship with a BPD or any other abuser can wreck one's self-esteem, making the victim more afraid of loosing the abuser.

In the past, I responded to the abuse by standing up for myself with anger.  But I have recently had success with setting boundaries while refusing to take the fight bait.  The other day, we were talking about a problem with our son and she started getting angry at me.  At first, she denied that she was angry at me and said she did not want any more of that "defensive crap."  I sent her an e-mail message explaining that our former marriage counselor had pointed out that she is quick to anger and often doesn't realize that she is angry.  I pointed out that I have been trying my best to avoid reacting to that anger, but it has not always been possible.  I said that she needs to stop, listen, and seriously consider her emotions when someone tells her she is getting angry at them.  I also noted that the phrase "defensive crap" sounded a lot like what her mother said when I tried to explain to her why I am not talkative--"I don't want to hear any of that crap!"  She took this well.

[earlgrey]

Earlgrey, are you really detached if you still contemplate rebuilding?  I'd be interested in your answer...

Going back and rebuilding would be a dreadful decision. I know that. But I have not so good periods when the whole idea of using my newfound 'health' to try to start afresh seems to be a mountain of a task, and I can shy away from it. Add to that my own history of failed r/s and I ask myself what really am I hoping to achieve? Yes all rather negative; then I look at my stbex and fantasize that there is hope. It is pure fantasy... .unless of course she sudddenly says ah! maybe you were onto something when you said... .sorry I fantasize again  .

But today I stumbled into some new ideas... .and I'm working on them.

The gist of these new ideas, which I find quite exciting is that my previous r/s failed for the very simple reason that I was not seeking a 'healthy' r/s. I was still struggling to recreate/detach/something with a mother who was not available. At least that is how I feel it.

I had confused this r/s (with my mother and I guess a subconscious wish to revisit) with my search for real 'love'. I quess that could explain the choices and unhappy results.

I don't think a romantic r/s should be doing the same thing as a maternal r/s so once the two can be separated, and that is what is new for me, the search for a romantic one should take on a different guise. I will be looking for new and different things, not for some strange deep feeling of connection to a mother who wasn't interested. (BTW I actually found the mother r/s that I was looking for, but I've now been there... .)

As I said I am working on it ... .but it gives me hope for the future because my 'search parameters' will be completely different from previous one, and so I reckon I can expect different kind of results.

half-life

Perhaps we can revisit the "Undecided" board more often and remind ourselves of how rushing into relationship might lead to disaster down the road.

agree; rushing in with the same check list/wish list can bring nothing new, but if the checklist is revised updated and improved... .who knows?

[drained1996]

'As I said I am working on it ... .but it gives me hope for the future because my 'search parameters' will be completely different from previous one, and so I reckon I can expect different kind of results!"

Yes, our 'search parameters' should be different, as are we, armed with the knowledge we gained from our past BPD r/s's.  We will recognize and react to red flags, and be much less susceptible to having boundaries broken.  We are also much more self aware which seems like you recognize... .thus, you've already done some of the reflecting and growing! 
So I reckon you're from the go ole South aint ya? 

[heartandwhole]

The gist of these new ideas, which I find quite exciting is that my previous r/s failed for the very simple reason that I was not seeking a 'healthy' r/s. I was still struggling to recreate/detach/something with a mother who was not available. At least that is how I feel it.

I had confused this r/s (with my mother and I guess a subconscious wish to revisit) with my search for real 'love'. I quess that could explain the choices and unhappy results.

I don't think a romantic r/s should be doing the same thing as a maternal r/s so once the two can be separated, and that is what is new for me, the search for a romantic one should take on a different guise. I will be looking for new and different things, not for some strange deep feeling of connection to a mother who wasn't interested. (BTW I actually found the mother r/s that I was looking for, but I've now been there... .)

As I said I am working on it ... .but it gives me hope for the future because my 'search parameters' will be completely different from previous one, and so I reckon I can expect different kind of results.

Hi earlgrey 

I totally get what you are saying here, and I have been working on this for many years (absent/unavailable father in my case).

The thing that gets me, though, is that in my experience so far, I am attracted to people who fulfill the schema that I am trying to resolve with my repetition compulsion. Way back when, I conflated "love" with distance/unavailability, so when I see it again as an adult, I make a beeline for that kind of person (unconsciously), especially if they seem to be the opposite of unavailable in the beginning. Inevitably, as the relationship progresses, my old feelings of not being lovable/good enough rear their heads and I start realizing that I've chosen to do this kind of dance AGAIN. It's  tiring.  

I just wonder if I would be attracted to someone totally available, you know? I really, really want to be. And in my next relationship I plan to use my head more than my hormones. I think it goes back to me being available—first to myself, then to others. If I can be there for myself when I need comforting and support, then I think I may start attracting people who are there for me, too. That will break this belief, this pattern, that has formed my reality (that no one will be there for me). That would require ME to change. Who would I be without this belief? It's a lot easier to blame it on the unavailable guy, you know what I mean?

One more thing: I also think that I may be dealing with that core "wound" the rest of my life in relationships. That is OK with me. I have tools to handle it and feel compassion for myself around that hurt. I think sometimes we work so hard at "getting rid" of things that we end not really dealing with what's there. Acceptance frees up what no longer serves; resistance keeps things stuck, in my opinion.

Anyway, I'm working on it, like you. 

heartandwhole

[earlgrey]

and I have been working on this for many years

ah! you've a bit of a start on me! ... .But glad you get it, i think there is something here.

These are my first thoughts... .my choice of romantic partners (and there have been a few, not because I'm a philanderer - I've just been around a bit time wise!) is never actually thought out. The major measure will be looks - this is the only bit I have a value judgement on. I know what I like/don't like, so I can actually participate in the selection process at this level. (I think this is why there are many threads about the physical aspects of our SO... .I don't think it is about absolutes of beauty never to be repeated, it is about the simple fact that we have an understanding of this bit - we get it, and so get posessive about the one trait we voted on.)

Then we come on to the rest of the selection process... .which if you pull it apart, will probably take into consideration things like empathy, integrity, honesty, values, reliability, kindness and emotional generosity (thanks Huff. Post). Well to be really honest, these ideas never even crossed my mind as the dating process advanced... .looking objectively at a potential mate. No, it didn't happen. If the physical attraction was OK I would bumble onwards, just happy to be in a r/s.

Then at some level, like a kind of autopilot, I would start to 'feel' something about the r/s. If I didn't get a good 'vibe' (based entirely on my perception of things - nothing to do with my partner) I would back off... .which would probably make her angry and so I'd revert and I'd be back on again. This was pretty standard stuff.

THEN, and this didn't happen very often (twice actually) I might get a good vibe. This good vibe was love. Simple eh! You get the vibe, its love. Don't get the vibe its not love. On or off, yes or no. Easy.

So here I am with a good vibe r/s and so I have no desire to bail. (now, today) I am certain I was paying very little attention to what was going on around me in the r/s, I was surfing on some wave of euphoria.

Well, the wheels fell off, perhaps surf died would be better. Anyhow. The r/s turned bitter, I could not understand what was happening, and my W has all the traits of pwB/NPD, and not only but has ALL the traits of my mother and I am trying to make sense.

I feel sure the good vibe was not 'love', but something familiar that I recognised in my partner, that nevertheless made me feel very good and secure. I would say there was something about my partner that made me 'find' my mother. I am not overly open to too much psychic/metaphysical type propos, but I do think there are probably verbal and non-verbal signs and gestures that without actually 'seeing' them, do connect to us and provoke profound feelings.

So... .next r/s will have to pay better attention to what actually is going on.

Also, wierd it would seem this particular r/s was all about me and my mother... .how on earth did my partner make any sense of it, and why did she hang about? Not that that is really my  issue, but I do feel kind of implicated... .perhaps we both were.