Handling Sensitive Topics w/ BPD Daughter

[Parents! Get help here!]

Hey friends!  Lately I've been struggling with my 26 year old BPD daughter.  She's been pretty stable and there's no yelling or arguing anymore.  She's taking her meds and working hard in therapy, and she's in a very stable job as a caregiver that she really loves.  Overall, things are surprisingly good compared to where she was only a few years ago.

One thing I've been really struggling with lately though is my daughter pushing boundaries- wanting to talk about sex and other highly sensitive topics that just shouldn't be discussed with a parent.  For instance, she brought up sex toys yesterday and wanted to teach me which ones did what...that's definitely not something I want or need to know.  I changed the subject a few times but she kept gravitating back to it, and I could feel the frustration building.

Any advice on how to handle this?  On one hand, our relationship is healthier than it's ever been and there's zero drama...which I'm eternally thankful for.  But on the other hand, conversations lately seem to focus on these types of topics and it's something she's always done to make others feel uncomfortable.  Do I directly call her on it and ask her to stop?  Or is there another approach to consider?

Thanks in advance!

[Pook075]

Hey friends!  Lately I've been struggling with my 26 year old BPD daughter.  She's been pretty stable and there's no yelling or arguing anymore.  She's taking her meds and working hard in therapy, and she's in a very stable job as a caregiver that she really loves.  Overall, things are surprisingly good compared to where she was only a few years ago.

One thing I've been really struggling with lately though is my daughter pushing boundaries- wanting to talk about sex and other highly sensitive topics that just shouldn't be discussed with a parent.  For instance, she brought up sex toys yesterday and wanted to teach me which ones did what...that's definitely not something I want or need to know.  I changed the subject a few times but she kept gravitating back to it, and I could feel the frustration building.

Any advice on how to handle this?  On one hand, our relationship is healthier than it's ever been and there's zero drama...which I'm eternally thankful for.  But on the other hand, conversations lately seem to focus on these types of topics and it's something she's always done to make others feel uncomfortable.  Do I directly call her on it and ask her to stop?  Or is there another approach to consider?

Thanks in advance!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Notwendy]

This must be poor boundaries. As uncomfortable as this is, it does indicate she isn't afraid to talk to you about something personal. I think the first consideration is to not shame her or shut down communication. It's normal to be curious about such things. The topic is everywhere, on TV, in the movies.

I think you could start with saying to her that it is normal for her to be wondering about this topic.

Then, make this from your perspective- "however, this is a very personal topic and not something I can discuss with you. I think the best person to ask would be your women's health doctor- gynecologist. You can make an appointment to ask about this or bring it up at your check up" ( if she doesn't have one already, it's time).

Then conclude with: "I love you as your Dad and hope you will always feel comfortable asking me for advice.  If I am not the person who can give you the best advice, I will recommend someone who can do that"

"This particular topic is something private that should be discussed between you and your doctor or someone you are in a relationship with". If she brings up the topic again you can repeat this last phrase.

[once removed]

something she's always done to make others feel uncomfortable. 

as in trying to push buttons?

what do you think is behind that?

[CC43]

Hi Pook,

I'm so glad your daughter is doing so well, which is amazing considering where she was not long ago.

I also have some relatives who gravitate towards conversation topics that are inappropriate or highly taxing.  Since I don't want to hurt their feelings or for them to feel like I'm shutting them down, I typically let them talk about these things for a while.  At first, I might listen like a gray rock, trying not to egg them on.  And yes, often it seems like they will go on unimpeded, ad nauseum, talking themselves into an excited state, and they will bring up the sensitive topic in every single conversation.  I think they might need to process the information and vent, but if it becomes too taxing for me, what I do is employ is a three strikes rule.  I'll indicate my desire to change the topic (Can we talk about something else now / What else is new /  You told me that already, do you have plans for the weekend / Let's talk about something more positive / We're not getting anywhere, let's wrap this up / I'm tired of talking about this).  If they don't take the hint, I'll give a second, stronger warning (We've covered this dozens of times already, I don't feel like talking about it now / I'm tired of this topic, if we don't talk about something else, I'm going to have to hang up / I'm too old for this conversation / I need a break from talking about this).  If they continue after the second warning, I'll say, I'm hanging up if we don't talk about something else.  If they continue again, that's the third strike, and I'll say, Bye now, I'll talk to you tomorrow.

For me, it's not so much about the topic itself--I understand that others might relish talking about certain things, whereas I just can't stand it anymore, after a while.  We all have our limits.  A particular example of mine is diaper changing, potty training or babies' sleep habits--I don't want to hear about it for a half an hour, even if a new parent might find it the most interesting topic on the planet.  Other examples might be politics, sex, divorce or detailed rehashing of plot lines of TV series I haven't viewed.  Maybe it's the phenomenon of being talked AT which is taxing, especially if the topic dominates all interactions with this person.  And that's when I employ the three strikes rule.  I find that they pick up on it pretty quickly, and would rather continue talking with me than goad me into hanging up.  I guess I think of trying to be an empathetic listener, but also having limits when the conversation feels like it's wearing me down.

[Pook075]

as in trying to push buttons?

what do you think is behind that?

Yeah, exactly as in pushing buttons.  She's done that her entire life and from our conversations, it seems to stem from making others uncomfortable in order to make herself feel more normal.  It's sort of like her saying, "I'm awkward and uncomfortable all the time, so if I make you uncomfortable then it feels right."

Additionally, she does this with everyone- it's not just dad.  Most people see her strange side and choose not to be close to her.

[Pook075]

This must be poor boundaries. As uncomfortable as this is, it does indicate she isn't afraid to talk to you about something personal. I think the first consideration is to not shame her or shut down communication. It's normal to be curious about such things. The topic is everywhere, on TV, in the movies.

I agree that part of this is definitely my fault and not making proper boundaries to specific topics.  The thing is though, my kid knows this and does it intentionally with just about everyone.  She likes seeing them squirm and feel uncomfortable.  Maybe it's more of a personality trait, I'm not sure.

My fear is pushing back too hard and it turning into an argument...which we generally don't do at all anymore.  Our conversations are productive and healthy.  Therapy has made a huge difference and I'm very thankful.

[Pook075]

And that's when I employ the three strikes rule.  I find that they pick up on it pretty quickly, and would rather continue talking with me than goad me into hanging up.  I guess I think of trying to be an empathetic listener, but also having limits when the conversation feels like it's wearing me down.

That's where I find myself at as well- if I can't steer conversations in another direction, then I make up an excuse to get off the phone.  And that's met with zero resistance so it's easier than challenging the topic head-on.

Thanks for sharing!

[Notwendy]

Is this intentional to rattle people  or is she socially awkward and does this in order to get some kind of emotional reaction as a way to connect? Or is this all poor boundaries?It may also be fear of rejection- so a way to control the rejection from other people.

At some point in childhood, children learn what is private. A young child will use potty language and say things to get a reaction from parents, but then they teach them- these are private body parts, these are private words. Not in a shameful way but to teach them boundaries.

Did you see the series of "Love on the Spectrum"- these young people say whatever they are thinking. It's sweet and they are innocently doing this but socially unaware. One young lady brings up sexual topics with her (clearly uncomfortable) boyfriend and another couple show a lot of affection in front of her parents- while the parents are not comfortable.  Their curiosity and feelings are normal. There isn't anything to be shamed or shameful about them. They haven't gotten the awareness of public, private, and when to discuss certain topics.

I am not squeamish about discussing the topic in general (facts of life, STD's, behavior standards) with my own adolescent kids or relationships in general at any age. Once they are adults though- what they do with a partner physically is their own private business.

One of the reasons I have these boundaries is that the boundaries were blurry at home with a BPD mother. She has poor boundaries about this topic and so confided TMI to me as a teen and when I began dating her questions were intrusive. Some of the parenting tasks that are usually handled by mothers were shifted to Dad. As a young teen, I felt embarrassed when she asked Dad to take me to buy female hygene items.

At around adolescence, teens have a natural modesty to them. They close their door when changing clothes. They may not want to talk about certain things. These are also the boundaries that will protect them when dating and in relationships.

For whatever reason, your D doesn't have a sense of boundaries when discussing sexual topics. Maybe it's due to having a mother who didn't role model or reinforce boundaries and some parental roles shifted to you as a father. I know you don't want to have an argument with your D but at some point, she needs to learn boundaries if it's possible. It may be with actions- like not staying on the phone if she brings it up. Or it might take saying something to her, even if she gets angry momentarily. It's clearly not serving her socially. She's still an adult and can make her own choices.

[Pook075]

Is this intentional to rattle people  or is she socially awkward and does this in order to get some kind of emotional reaction as a way to connect?

Truthfully, I think it's all three.

Recently my daughter told me that her counselor thinks she's on the Autism spectrum, which could explain how she's never developed these types of social cues.  I figured it was from BPD but now that we're talking about it, I haven't seen many others mentioning things like that here.

It's not just sex stuff- it's talking about going to the bathroom, sharing wildly inappropriate videos and jokes that she knows others will find offensive, over-sharing bizarre stuff with kids, etc.

[Notwendy]

Recently my daughter told me that her counselor thinks she's on the Autism spectrum, which could explain how she's never developed these types of social cues. 

I wondered that as well as I have seen it with people on the spectrum. If this is the case, it is worth pursuing. I have heard of young men getting fired from their job for saying things that fall into harrassment- when it's just them not understanding social cues.

It's also a way to engage if someone has limited social skills/emotional immaturity.  Negative attention is still attention. If someone can't engage in a more positive way, saying something inappropriate gets attention. Think of little kids with potty talk. They get the parent's attention, even if it's the parent saying "don't say that". If they say it to another same age child- that child may laugh and join in. As kids get older, they pick up on social cues to not say these things.

[Pook075]

I wondered that as well as I have seen it with people on the spectrum. If this is the case, it is worth pursuing. I have heard of young men getting fired from their job for saying things that fall into harrassment- when it's just them not understanding social cues.

It's also a way to engage if someone has limited social skills/emotional immaturity.  Negative attention is still attention. If someone can't engage in a more positive way, saying something inappropriate gets attention. Think of little kids with potty talk. They get the parent's attention, even if it's the parent saying "don't say that". If they say it to another same age child- that child may laugh and join in. As kids get older, they pick up on social cues to not say these things.

I've never researched Autism so I don't know- my BPD kid has always heard what she wants to hear so I didn't pay it a lot of attention at first.  And if it is Autism, she's super high-functioning.  Throughout middle and high school, she tested in the top 1% in the nation for math...in 6th grade she tested in the top .001 percent on the SATs.  Her score was the highest in state history.  She's terrible with reading and writing though, and literally has no sense of direction since she gets lost going to/from work daily.

Thanks again for talking this out, I'll look more at autism and see if it's possibly a fit.  That would explain a lot for us.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Notwendy]

Autism, like BPD, is on a spectrum. Her high academic peformance in some areas but not in others would not be inconsistent with being on the spectrum. If she's willing to consider this- with her counselor- and let the counselor do some evaluations, it would be good for her to know if she is, or isn't, on the spectrum.

[CC43]

Hi there,

This is an interesting thread, and I agree that on these boards I haven't seen many instances of loved ones citing recurring, inappropriate conversation topics as a challenge in their BPD relationship.  Yet I can't help but see some echoes of underlying BPD traits and behaviors.  For example, the inappropriateness of the topics could indicate a lack of self awareness, which seems typical of BPD.  The use of inappropriate conversation topics to command attention or make someone feel uncomfortable, defensive or angry also sounds and awful lot like BPD to me.  If the conversation serves as a distraction or deflection from more pertinent issues and feelings (i.e. avoidance), that also sounds like BPD to me.  Even the repetitiveness of the routine echoes the intense rumination and intrusive thought patterns that are typical of BPD, which probably border on OCD.

It may well be that your daughter is on the spectrum, but I can't help but wonder if her behavior is another, albeit unique, manifestation of BPD traits.  I guess the word "inappropriate" stands out to me, because so much of BPD behavior seems not unnatural, and not inhuman, but rather inappropriate for the situation.  And that might stem from a combination of intense emotions, anxiety, insecurity, and a lack of self-awareness, and maybe a bit of OCD too.

I have a family member who I've felt might be on the spectrum from time to time, mainly because of his very narrow range of interests, and his awkwardness when it comes to conversing about anything outside that range.  He is content when discussing his favorite topics, but he isn't very interested in participating in other conversations, let alone allowing someone else to dominate the conversation.  When that happens, sometimes he gets mean and argumentative, sort of a "punishment" for steering the conversation away from him and his favorite topics.  He is also very smart, with an engineer's brain, but his emotional intelligence is on the low side of normal.  He too will say inappropriate things, especially around children.  I don't think he intends to be inappropriate, but he just doesn't know HOW to adjust his conversation according to the audience or the situation, as he only wants to talk about what he wants to talk about, and his intensity is typically too high.  He is extremely high functioning, but he tends not to get along with ordinary people, and I suspect that his EQ and difficulties with casual conversations have something to do with that.  One little example is that he lived in another country for YEARS, and yet he never learned a word of the country's language.  The lack of curiosity or minimal effort to try and acclimate to the country are astounding to me.  Social "acceptance" or "fitting in" just isn't important enough to him, I suspect.  Whether this is on the spectrum, I don't know.  But I see some parallels with your daughter, too:  maybe she just doesn't understand that others don't share her keen interests, and she doesn't discern and/or really care when they don't?

[Pook075]

Whether this is on the spectrum, I don't know.  But I see some parallels with your daughter, too:  maybe she just doesn't understand that others don't share her keen interests, and she doesn't discern and/or really care when they don't?

I really don't know either, because she's consistent with it across relationships and she tends to key on something another person probably won't like...almost like pushing a boundary.

One story that comes to mind- she was 17 and not much more than 100 pounds.  She wanted to give blood and the nurse said she was too skinny, it wasn't safe.  My daughter not only protested, but began making up facts to prove the nurse wrong.  My ex wife and i just stared at each other in disbelief...everyone knew she was lying and the nurse was getting angry.  Yet my kid continued to lecture her with confidence that it would allow her to donate blood that day, then complained on the entire car ride home how wrong the nurse was.

Another quick story, we went to get ice cream one day...she was maybe 16.  The girl serving ice cream was around the same age, and was the super sweet/happy type.  She told my daughter that she liked her shoes, and my kid replied asking what time she got off because she could take her to where she bought them.  But then she immediately followed that up with her friend who just got cheated on worked at a store nearby there and she started sharing the entire story.  It was bizarre and she was talking so loudly, everyone in the ice cream shop was uncomfortable.

She's diagnosed BPD/Bi-polar and that's definitely a correct diagnosis.  But this kind of stuff doesn't seem to "fit in the box" and has always left me scratching my head.

[Notwendy]

This is different from how my BPD mother behaved. She was actually very socially savvy and knew how to manipulate people. Where her boundaries were poor was that she'd confide TMI to us and to other people. She didn't keep information confidential if asked to do so.

She'd invade other people's privacy to gather information as she liked to "know people's secrets" so when visiting, she'd look into drawers, cabinets, closets. She somehow thought other people had something to hide and wanted to know their secrets. She'd ask invasive questions.

Sometimes the content of her questions and discussions were inappropriately sexual but it seemed as if the issue was some kind of trauma. I don't have proof but I have wondered if she may have experienced SA in her younger years which led to her having boundary issues with this topic.

In social situations, she had a charming and very social "persona". There were no signs she might be on the spectrum.

Pook, if your D's counselor wonders about her being on the spectrum- and your D is on board with being evaluated- it would be good information to know if she is or isn't.

[CC43]

Hi again,

Those last examples of your daughter's behavior might show an inability and/or unwillingness to pick up on social cues, which I understand is typical for people on the autism spectrum.  I have a friend who is suspected to be on the spectrum, and he has a lot of trouble reading, in particular understanding nuances and inferring meaning.  He sees everything very literally, and this deficit extends to live conversations with other people.  He is naturally sweet, but he is easily flustered and has a low frustration tolerance, perhaps because he doesn't entirely grasp the context and meaning of some everyday conversations.  In summary, he has issues reading between the lines, as well as reading the room, which were severe enough to merit getting some extra support, including therapy and life skills classes for adults.  I understand that the life skills classes/seminars focused on planning, communication and problem resolution, which frankly might be helpful for just about everyone.  I think he really benefitted from this extra support (along with ongoing loving support from family members), even if he didn't have a formal diagnosis or was deemed too high functioning to qualify for one.  In fact, I suspect he might now be deemed too high functioning BECAUSE of all the extra support/training he got over the years.  Whereas most people learn social cues naturally, through ongoing parenting, schooling and playtime, he needed some extra support to learn about social cues and socially acceptable communication to get him to a "high functioning" level, which he appears to have accomplished.