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Author Topic: No reconciliation or stabilization in sight  (Read 430 times)
SoVeryConfused
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« on: June 29, 2025, 09:53:58 PM »

My 24-year-old child is still raging at me daily. Says she does not want a relationship. That would be a respite, frankly, if true. She immediately calls back to repeat it. When I stop answering, I'm "ignoring" her.

I've responded that I understand her anger over past things; I'm trying to do things differently. But since I'm not doing the things SHE wants, I'm selfish.

Ex #1: After being sworn at, I text that I care AND I'll talk to her again in a few days. She'll immediately rage call & text. When I don't pick up - I'm rotten and have not changed.

Ex #2: Says we never offer to see her and don't care. Huh??? We've asked to come every weekend! I've driven there and she wouldn't see me.
I try to validate - I see you feel that we don't care.
Her response - Knock it off - I don't "feel." It's true. You don't care. You are horrible.

Ex #3: She's furious we travel in winter. 
We validated - I'm sorry, we didn't know you would feel left alone.
Her response - ok, well, now you know, so you're not going, right?   
Her: I'm not doing well, and you just want to go on vacation (we work). You are horrible.

Ex #4: She calls to tell me she's blocking me. I say, I understand. If you change your mind, I'm here.
Immediately call & call & call to repeat it, and add that I'm selfish, etc.
I usually text and say - I hear you. We can talk tomorrow.
Response - more rage texts and swearing.

I share all this not to burden you, but to give you real-life examples. I suggested we could all try to make a fresh start and try to repair the relationship, but she said no. But then she'll say we don't try. If you can't JADE, what do you do in these calls?

I would welcome your experience.
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Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders
Notwendy
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« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2025, 09:36:44 AM »

Ironically - that she is calling you daily- this is a relationship. If she really didn't want to have a relationship with you, she'd not call at all.

BPD affects the closest relationships the most. They act out most with people they feel safest with. It doesn't seem fair that the person the closest to her gets the worst of the behavior- but- that is you and her calling daily is her actually having a relationship with you.

It's hard to hear (and you don't have to endure verbal abuse) but the statements are on the level of a feeling dump. They aren't true- and so no reason to defend them. Try not to take them personally. It's not possible to reason with someone who is in the middle of this. It's an adult version of a toddler tantrum. The child wants a cookie for dinner, the parent says no, and the child has a tantrum, says things like "you are a poopy face". The parent response is to not give this more energy- and wait the tantrum out. Trying to reason with the child in the moment only escalates the situation.

The child still won't get the cookie. This is normal for a toddler who doesn't have emotional regulation skills and pwBPD may not have these either.

If she's still calling- that is a connection. It may not be the change you want to see in her but it is a relationship. You also have the right to have boundaries and not to be always available as someone to dump emotions on. You can also go on vacation and have your space. Your task is to hold on to the boundaries you have, even if she's making these statements. If something isn't true, you don't have to defend them. You can simply say "I understand you feel this way". If the conversation goes on too long- say "I love you honey but I need to go to an appointment, or there's someone at the door (or any excuse). Silence your phone and let her leave messages.
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SoVeryConfused
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« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2025, 11:26:17 AM »

Thank you, Wendy. I hear what you are saying. It is a relationship, I guess, but not a positive one.

Her view is that if I don't take every call, absorb her view of me, let her swear at me, and agree, there's going to be no relationship. If I don't support her (in some way that she won't define, but I'm supposed to guess), then I'm evil and she's done.

Today, again, I said, I hear how I've hurt you. I'm sorry that I don't show up the way you want all the time. I've been wishy washy and not always done what I promised, and I'm sorry. That's what she keeps saying, and there is some truth, so I apologized. Again.

And she says, well, it's too late. And then continues right on with how horrible I am. 

If she were a friend only, I would cut this off, but obviously, I love this kid and won't. But I don't recognize her or see how it's getting better with boundaries or validating emotions. Sorry - I'm just discouraged, I think.
 

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Notwendy
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« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2025, 12:12:34 PM »

Understandable. Each relationship is a function of both people and their abilities to have a relationship. I don't know if it's different with a child- as a parent feels responsible for a child- but when the child is an adult, the parent role as caregiver evolves. It's still a special relationship but it takes both adults to maintain. In my situation, it was a mother with BPD- but she would blame me for any issues between us.

I wish I could have "made the relationship better"- but she did have mental health and it didn't seem to help and eventually, I had to accept that the relationhship with us was a function of her ability to have a relationship too and her BPD limited this.

I did try to do nice things for her but for some reason- she'd find something wrong that I did, or didn't do, and the attempts felt like failures. Sometimes even a small thing could be felt as a major transgression to her.

I didn't have any intentions of hurting her and I know you didn't have intentions of hurting your daughter. I couldn't change how she might feel.

However, you also have the right to not be subjected to daily blame and verbal abuse and I had decided this as well. I had to have boundaries on this. It doesn't feel right, it feels unatural. A mother-daughter relationship should not require this. I wish it was different and perhaps she wished it was different too but with immediate family, her BPD behaviors were at their most, and they were verbally and emotionally abusive. I also didn't want to continue to enable her behaviors.

Ultimately, if we don't see where change is possible, we do the best with what we have. You don't have to allow her to be verbally abusive to you. You can have boundaries. Unfortunatly this choice also involves their possible reactions to the boundaries. This can be scary. These aren't choices anyone wishes to make but if it's impacting our own emotional well being-  we may have to. Maybe my mother thought I was a bad daughter for doing so, but enabling her to be an abusive person wasn't being good to her either.

Are we perfect parents- or children? No, but we all do the best we can in our own circumstances. You've apologized. Tried to do better. I think that's the best anyone can do. It's up to your D now to accept the apology or not.
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kells76
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« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2025, 12:58:09 PM »

Do you think she is in a prolonged dysregulation right now?
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SoVeryConfused
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« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2025, 01:59:01 PM »

Kells76,

I didn't have those words, but yes - she is in prolonged dysregulation with mostly me only.

She goes in and out of communication with my husband, her dad, and can have normal talks with him. But there's a cycle. If he won't do something she wants or says the wrong thing, she'll get angry, and she'll tell him no more relationship. She knows he has no patience for this, so she'll eventually come around, and they'll return to civil conversations for a while.

We have not had a normal "what are you up to" conversation since March.

Ex) She was making threats and was hysterical with me a few months ago. 50+ calls.
A few minutes later, her dad comes in after being gone, speaking to her on the phone (he didn't know the day's history). She was talking normally to him and even laughing. I COULD NOT believe this was the same person. I don't know if she hides it from him or ramps it up for me because I keep trying.

If I were describing a friendship, I would say the friend holds a grudge and won't soften. Every call is to tell me this, but the calls don't stop. I ask for reconciliation. She says - no, too late. But unlike a friend with whom you might wind down the friendship, she's my kid, and I know she's in pain, so I find myself wanting to stop talking to her, but also feeling pain for her pain.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2025, 05:20:18 AM »

I have seen the "switch" in speaking to me and then if someone comes into the room, being nice to them.

From my own perspective, if someone is dysregulating- they don't have that control in the moment. I have seen the different "personas" - they can change in a split second- but this means there's some control of how they are speaking to someone.

In my FOO, my BPD mother favored my sibling, and yet, oddly- in our adulthood, she also was more critical and verbally abusive to this sibling than she was with me. Their emotional attachment seemed greater. I decided on boundaries and didn't tolerate the verbal abuse as much. It's as if she knew just how far she could go with each of us, but also I think I was able to have the boundaries due to having a different relationship with her.

So there's a two way dynamic. Your D is speaking to her father differently because she knows he won't put up with the way she speaks to you. You are still determining how to handle this- the boundary may not be as clear. Emotionally it does affect you- that is understandable.

We can't change another person- we can only change ourselves. Your D may continue to call you up, curse at you and be critical of you. On your part, you will need to decide your boundary with this. A part of this is to be able to tolerate her reaction, telling you you are a horrible mother, etc, for having boundaries. How you will do this is up to you. It may be that you shorten the sessions and get off the phone, and let her go go voice mail. It may be that you ask her father to call her instead of you. This is your boundary to decide on.

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CC43
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« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2025, 10:01:09 AM »

This is an interesting thread, because I sense your frustration / desperation, and at the same time, I marvel at how stubborn and persistent your daughter is, and manipulative too, because she doesn't use the same routine with your husband.

Though the literature I've read on dealing with BPD emphasizes validation, sometimes I wonder, what should we do when validation clearly isn't working?  What if the rage texts go on for weeks, and we still get incessant calls and long, drawn-out shouting sessions/put downs which never seem to peter out?  It seems that she's a broken record, spinning and spinning out of control, making the situation even worse than it already is.  Could it be that "validation" is actually showing your daughter daughter that's OK to treat you poorly?  She continues to lash out because she wants to "win," to beat you into submission, in a misguided attempt to make herself feel better--by making YOU feel worse.  She does this so much that she's actually wearing grooves into her brain, and it's a thinking/behavioral pattern that is very hard to break.  When my adult BPD stepdaughter acted this way with her immediate family, I think she was perhaps training her brain to respond this way in all sorts of situations.  Whereas her parents might tolerate it, her roommates/co-workers/friends certainly did not.  And then she'd wonder why she lost all her friends.  Once she wondered aloud, Why does everyone say I'm a b*?  I was perplexed by that, because she seemed totally oblivious to how her self-centeredness, negativity and mean interactions with others would push people away from her!  You see, I think she actually felt JUSTIFIED in her out-of-control and over-the-top outbursts, because she was hurt, and she was "trained" by her parents who tolerated her behavior, making it seem both normal and acceptable ("I can see why you feel that way, clearly you're very hurt, it must be terrible to feel that way, we never meant to hurt you . . . ").

I don't know what to do in this situation.  My inclination would be to validate once or twice, but then extract myself from the "conversation," especially if it turned mean or abusive.  I'd try not to "reward" her behavior with attention, and give her a time out so that she can pull herself together, but not lash out at me in the process.  If she keeps at it for as long as you describe, I would be tempted to cut her off:  We're not getting anywhere, I'm not talking about this anymore, I've had enough.  We can talk about something else tomorrow. . . . We can't change the past, it's time for me to move on . . . I don't want to talk about negative things all the time, it's not helpful to dwell on this . . . Since we're at an impasse, maybe this is something you can talk about with a therapist, but I want to talk about something else right now . . .

If only your daughter dedicated herself to productive endeavors with the same tenacity that she hurls hatred your way, she'd be amazing.  That's exactly what I think about my BPD stepdaughter.  Her dedication is incredible, it's just that her priorities are all messed up.

My other thought is that your daughter's behavior might be an extinction burst.  She doesn't like the boundaries you are setting with her (cutting the conversation short when she gets mean), and she's increasing her assaults, because that's what worked for her in the past.  If it is an extinction burst, you have to be strong and keep your boundaries; otherwise, she'll learn that her outbursts work for her, and it incentivizes her to up the ante even more.

All my best to you.
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kells76
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« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2025, 10:59:50 AM »

Important point here:

Though the literature I've read on dealing with BPD emphasizes validation, sometimes I wonder, what should we do when validation clearly isn't working?

Validation is a tool... and, it's not the only tool in our toolbox  Being cool (click to insert in post)

When we build a house, hammers are an important tool... and, they aren't the only tool we will ever need. Some tasks do require a hammer, but not all. It's on us to identify when we have a task that needs a saw, for example, instead. Anyone would feel frustrated when the situation requires shortening a piece of lumber, but our hammer just isn't cutting it (pun kind of intended).

Generally speaking, validation builds connection between persons. Per Family Connections, a more validating home environment is a relief to everybody! Validation can increase trust and openness. There's a vulnerability there. Validation is not usually the tool to reach for when there's extreme dysregulation, abusive language, raging, etc.

Boundaries are for our own protection. They don't build connection between persons. Boundaries are rules we have for ourselves, that are fully under our own control, and that don't require anyone else's agreement, cooperation, or approval. Boundaries don't require announcement or explanation... they're typically something we do, more than something we say.

And, there are more tools, too. A good one from Family Connections is the "STOP skill", otherwise known as... not doing anything. When we use the STOP skill, we (let me try to remember the acronym) Stop what we're doing, Take a breath, Observe what's going on, and Pause to reflect before we move forward.

We can review many relational tools and skills and fill out our toolbox accordingly, so that when crisis hits, we have more than just our hammer.

SVC, I wonder if we can add to your toolbelt, so you have some more to choose from during these high-intensity situations? Maybe that would feel like a relief to you, to know that you have more options.  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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SoVeryConfused
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« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2025, 05:21:29 PM »

You've put into words what I'm struggling with. I read other posts and their loved on has calm moments and then flare ups and then returns to baseline. My child only is civil when she needs something.

Let me share an example: child made threats. We did a wellness check. Door was damaged by responders. Child was not there but at work while making the threats. Damage was fairly significant. We offered to help with repair. Now a month later, the call comes - send me x dollars or I'll take you to court.

There is no initial civility. No giving up the anger and the victim status. Even after apologies and olive branches. The child remembers every word we've said, but laughed when I said I can't be sworn at because it's hurtful. I know this is not unique to me, but because it's continual - every day, every call, every text - I don't get a break to even build any positive interactions. It's all negative, and me stepping back does increase the rage.

I did read some of the tools shared, Kells. If not validation as a tool, are limits the only other option? Or low contact? We have learned the STOP skill so far, and it's very helpful. Benign intent is also helpful, but heck, if I've had a chance to really use it since all of the communication is toxic.

I'm in Family Connections now and we are not yet to limits, but boy, I wish we were there already. I'm more just venting - but if anyone has been in a prolonged cycle like this of this extreme, I would welcome experiences.

This is an interesting thread, because I sense your frustration / desperation, and at the same time, I marvel at how stubborn and persistent your daughter is, and manipulative too, because she doesn't use the same routine with your husband.

Though the literature I've read on dealing with BPD emphasizes validation, sometimes I wonder, what should we do when validation clearly isn't working?  What if the rage texts go on for weeks, and we still get incessant calls and long, drawn-out shouting sessions/put downs which never seem to peter out?  It seems that she's a broken record, spinning and spinning out of control, making the situation even worse than it already is.  Could it be that "validation" is actually showing your daughter daughter that's OK to treat you poorly? 
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Notwendy
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« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2025, 05:04:04 AM »

I'm in Family Connections now and we are not yet to limits, but boy, I wish we were there already. I'm more just venting - but if anyone has been in a prolonged cycle like this of this extreme, I would welcome experiences.

Since you are in Family Connections- one option is to just go "grey rock"- don't react or make a decision until you come to the section on limits and what to do.

She seems to be connected to you- emotionally- even in a negative way. That doesn't mean you need to tolerate this constantly- but it may be an extinction burst to the new changes on your part. This would mean holding tight to the boundaries you have in place now.

Grey rock doesn't mean ignoring her or saying nothing. It's not responding emotionally or defending yourself. A counselor once recommended to me to substitute something absurd in your mind- that you won't emotionally react to- for the accusation. If your D called you up and said you were a pink elephant- you wouldn't have the same emotional reaction to that. You stay calm during her emotional storm.

Then bring this up to the Family Connections class coordinator- they have expertise in this.

« Last Edit: July 03, 2025, 09:18:28 AM by kells76, Reason: edited quotation formatting » Logged
Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders
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