Do I Ever Push for the Truth?

[Depression = 72% of members]

One of the worst parts about my relationship with my BPD wife is that she's made me feel like I'm insane... .that I'm the problem.  I feel that MAYBE in order for us to move forward, I need to hear the truth... .at least about some of the circumstances... .this is a long post... .there really is a question at the end... .I tell the story to get it out... .a cathartic experience... .just to give the sense of the "insanity" I've been living in... .

Last spring I discovered she was sexting with her first boyfriend... .the one to whom she lost her virginity.  It was an innocent enough discovery... .opened the lap top... .went to FB... .saw a message and opened it... .then realized it was her FB not mine... .the chathead nickname was set to "sweetheart"... .so I read the messages... .she'd gotten into the habit of deleting her messages because she'd been caught sexting in this fashion in the past.  The messages that remained were fairly innocent... .not entirely... .but relatively... .a midday text from her "I'm thinking about you" there was a promise to text more when he got off work that evening.  

So I'm sitting with her that evening... .and at the given time she starts texting... .so I go to the kitchen and fire up the laptop and read what was being written... .after an exchange of greetings she texts "I want you here... .now... .anywhere."  I confronted her... .we argue... .later her story is that she was actually texting with his girlfriend and him together... .that she was interested in the girl (that somehow makes it better).

So I contact the girl later and she tells me she is no longer with him... .that this has been going on for years (I discovered messages between them back in 2010)... .that they had exchanged inappropriate pics... .and that he often stopped by the apartment when I was at work.  Confronting the wife with this the tables are turned and it's my fault for snooping... .and my fault for contacting the ex girlfriend... .and my fault for not trusting her... .and I actually freaking apologized.

fastforward to our current situation.  She reconnects with her younger cousin (age 22)... .he's spending a lot of time here... .and eventually actually moves in to facilitate a new job he took... .from his mom's home his one way commute is 3 hours... .from our place one hour... .I started being jealous of the amount of time... .and quality of time... .she was spending with her cousin... .and mentioned it... .without a fight.   She tells me he's recovering from a break up with his ex girlfriend... .she did him bad while he was in another country working... .left him for another man... .she lives in the same building right across from his mom's apartment... .

I come home early from work one day unannounced... .to find them sitting together on the couch... .she's leaned against his shoulder... .their legs are intertwined... .looking like a young couple... .I object... .she says it's nothing... .and says she won't do it anymore... .they spend hours together in the kitchen talking... .exchanging tattoo pictures and videos... .and I feel like I'm intruding on their time together when I'm in the room.

Her cousin's mom... .(which is her first cousin) needs an overnight stay in the hospital and asks my wife to come watch her kids... .I ask why D can't do it... .she says he has a three day job in our town and it would be too much trouble for him to travel between his town and ours... .so I agree... .later... .my 8 year old daughter mentions staying at the cousin's apartment... .(she took two of our four kids with her)... .and then mentions that D, the cousin was there... .I say really... .how long did he stay... .her response... .the whole time... .where did he sleep... .on the couch with Mommy... .how do you know... .I saw them when I got up to go to the bathroom... .so I confront her about this... .our daughter is mistaken... .he had been there to pick up clothes... .and then left at 9PM... .he then came back the next morning after an early dentist appointment... .the text messages I receive later seem to surround this evening.

I find a picture taken in a photo booth of them kissing... .I explode... .(I have never hit my wife... .and never will... .this was an emotional display).  She tells me they took to photo and sent a copy of it to the girlfriend to make her jealous... .she's pissed that I confront her with this... .and takes off... .she'd been at a dance club with some mutual friends... .our exchange was by phone... .I'm the bad guy for snooping... .she picks up her jacket and leaves the club without telling her friends boo... .and is gone until noon the next day when one of our friends pick her up... .say she was in a hotel by herself thinking... .who knows.  The next day she trips down the steps of our apartment and twists her ankle... .so I ignore the evidence already at hand... .come on... .this is her cousin... .and when she asks the cousin to stay and help her with the house and kids while I'm at work I agree.

When she sees the doctor for her ankle she also gets a referral to a therapist... .her concern is the flight thing... .where she gets overwhelmed and leaves... .and not knowing if she wants to be a 30 year old wife and mother or an 18 year old with no responsibilities.

Later that week I get contacted by the ex-girlfriend... .supposedly... .who says yes, they sent the photo... .she knew it was my wife and laughed about it.  I later discover this FB message contact came from a FB page my wife created... .on this FB page she's "in a relationship" with the cousin... .there's also a second instagram account by the same name... .with lots of #inlove... .pictures of their tattoos... .holding hands... .one of his head resting on her boobs... .I don't see these until the night of our big blowup.

she then creates yet another FB account and contacts me again as the exgirlfriend with the same story.  I confront her with both... .she says one was created to "create the illusion" that he had a new girlfriend to make the ex jealous... .

after valentines day I notice that HE is wearing a bracelet that says "hers" in English... .it looks new and I have never noticed it before... .I told myself if I find a bracelet with "his" on it I'll blow my top.  So I'm taking my kids to church... .putting our youngest into the car... .and see one of her purses on the floor... .I look in it and there's the matching "his" bracelet.  I confront them... .their story is that this was the exgirlfriends... .he loves her so much he still wears it... .then his mom (who is visiting) says, oh, that's mine... .he gave it to me a few weeks ago... .and the purse... .it was one his Mom gave to my wife the night she stayed there... .too many holes, I'm not buying it.  That night my wife and I go to dinner so we can talk... .I tell her that I think there is a lot more to this story than her helping to make the exgirlfriend jealous... .that I think he figures into that part of her that wants to be young and have no responsibilities... .but that I do not believe she had sex with him... .I told her my rationale for believing she had not had sex with him was because she is not evil... .and it would be a truly evil person who moved her lover into the house she occupied with her husband and family.

I created an Instagram account a few days later... .found the exgirlfriend... .and messaged her asking about whether or not they sent a picture... .she says no... .and then sends me text messages she had screen shots of made in December... .around the time my wife stayed at her cousins... .and pictures she'd pulled from his Instagram... .never showing my wife's face... .but them holding hands... .and one of him with his head resting on her boobs.  He's in my house when I get the messages and I physically beat him... .(I know... .I should have just thrown him out)... .the worst part is two of my kids saw me beat him... .though my wife didn't.

She maintains that the exgirlfriend created these messages... .which, while possible... .would be extremely difficult and would have needed to be done in advance just waiting for me to contact her.  the exgirlfriend says she tried to contact me before but that she was blocked... .I check my FB and sure enough she and several other people are blocked... .wife denies she blocked anyone.

This is the night my wife left at 9 PM and drove 5 hours to her mom's house with the kids... .for three days... .without telling me where she was.  She brought them home on Friday a week ago, and now I have the kids while she stays at a friends ( I think )... .she sees the kids for a few hours ever day... .

The Sunday after she brought the kids back we agreed we wanted to reconcile... .I placed no conditions EXCEPT that she continue her therapy and that we see a marriage counselor together... .the separation now is to be at least two weeks... .longer if we need it.

She still maintains everything was done to make the ex jealous... .and that the ex faked the messages.  The girl that translated the messages for me (while I understand a lot of Czech there are nuances in language... .especially informal writing... .that don't allow me to understand a lot of what is written.  She pointed out the transition in the screen shots from talking about sex to when she believes it actually occurred.  A mutual friend of my wife and I read the translations and pointed out that same spot as the transition... .but then after reading the last message she said she wasn't as sure about the transition.

I think for my own sanity I need to hear the truth about this relationship.  I lied to myself about what I was seeing for so long... .I really did feel I was going crazy... .being overly suspicious... .overly jealous.  Part of me would want her to tell me the truth about EVERYTHING so that I can make my decision about whether or not to move forward with the relationship on truth.  It would be easier for me, I think, to hear that yes, they had a sexual relationship than it is for me to hear the continued lie about making the ex jealous.  There have been small moments of remorse... .and implicit guilt.  She first refused the idea of marriage counseling because she didn't want to tell the counselor she was a "___ and a slut."  She told me before our first meeting after this blow up that she was scared to see me... .scared to look at my face... .scared to look into my eyes.  The comment I made at our dinner meeting... .about believing she did not have sex with him because that would mean she was evil... .was probably not helpful.

I think to move forward I will at some point need to hear a believable story about all this... .

Then there are the things I lied to myself about in the past to survive... .to stay in the relationship.  When she was pregnant with our fourth child the doctor said she had chlamydia... so we both took the treatment.  She said her exboyfriend... .the biological father of our son (I adopted him in September) gave it to her... .The midwife said that not all hospitals test for chlamydia... .and false negatives were possible.  I was 100% faithful and had myself tested after my last divorce in 2006... .so I know she didn't get it from me... I find it hard to believe that she had three pregnancies... .three different hospitals... .three different doctors... .and that none tested for chlamydia... .or there were three false negatives... .I find it very believable that the exboyfriend I caught her texting with actually did come to our apartment... .in part because the next time I caught her sexting I KNOW this guy came to the apartment... .although the story I'm supposed to accept is that he was only there for a cup of coffee and one of her girlfriends were there the whole time... .nothing happened.

And it's not just about the sexting and cheating... .she lies or withholds the truth about a lot of things.  She took out a loan for $1500 for her dad about a year ago to help him without a word to me... .I paid that off to save the 75% interest... .this past February she took out a loan for $1500 without telling me... .and says it was to pay off a bill from before we got married that came back to haunt her... .might be true... .or she might have given the money to her unemployed cousin... .or done a million other things with it (I found the loan papers the night she left for Germany... .I rifled the whole house)... .

Do I push for the truth on the cousin?  :)o I push for the truth on all these things?  Can we rebuild this with lies still between us?

[daverisk]

One of the worst parts about my relationship with my BPD wife is that she's made me feel like I'm insane... .that I'm the problem.  I feel that MAYBE in order for us to move forward, I need to hear the truth... .at least about some of the circumstances... .this is a long post... .there really is a question at the end... .I tell the story to get it out... .a cathartic experience... .just to give the sense of the "insanity" I've been living in... .

Last spring I discovered she was sexting with her first boyfriend... .the one to whom she lost her virginity.  It was an innocent enough discovery... .opened the lap top... .went to FB... .saw a message and opened it... .then realized it was her FB not mine... .the chathead nickname was set to "sweetheart"... .so I read the messages... .she'd gotten into the habit of deleting her messages because she'd been caught sexting in this fashion in the past.  The messages that remained were fairly innocent... .not entirely... .but relatively... .a midday text from her "I'm thinking about you" there was a promise to text more when he got off work that evening.  

So I'm sitting with her that evening... .and at the given time she starts texting... .so I go to the kitchen and fire up the laptop and read what was being written... .after an exchange of greetings she texts "I want you here... .now... .anywhere."  I confronted her... .we argue... .later her story is that she was actually texting with his girlfriend and him together... .that she was interested in the girl (that somehow makes it better).

So I contact the girl later and she tells me she is no longer with him... .that this has been going on for years (I discovered messages between them back in 2010)... .that they had exchanged inappropriate pics... .and that he often stopped by the apartment when I was at work.  Confronting the wife with this the tables are turned and it's my fault for snooping... .and my fault for contacting the ex girlfriend... .and my fault for not trusting her... .and I actually freaking apologized.

fastforward to our current situation.  She reconnects with her younger cousin (age 22)... .he's spending a lot of time here... .and eventually actually moves in to facilitate a new job he took... .from his mom's home his one way commute is 3 hours... .from our place one hour... .I started being jealous of the amount of time... .and quality of time... .she was spending with her cousin... .and mentioned it... .without a fight.   She tells me he's recovering from a break up with his ex girlfriend... .she did him bad while he was in another country working... .left him for another man... .she lives in the same building right across from his mom's apartment... .

I come home early from work one day unannounced... .to find them sitting together on the couch... .she's leaned against his shoulder... .their legs are intertwined... .looking like a young couple... .I object... .she says it's nothing... .and says she won't do it anymore... .they spend hours together in the kitchen talking... .exchanging tattoo pictures and videos... .and I feel like I'm intruding on their time together when I'm in the room.

Her cousin's mom... .(which is her first cousin) needs an overnight stay in the hospital and asks my wife to come watch her kids... .I ask why D can't do it... .she says he has a three day job in our town and it would be too much trouble for him to travel between his town and ours... .so I agree... .later... .my 8 year old daughter mentions staying at the cousin's apartment... .(she took two of our four kids with her)... .and then mentions that D, the cousin was there... .I say really... .how long did he stay... .her response... .the whole time... .where did he sleep... .on the couch with Mommy... .how do you know... .I saw them when I got up to go to the bathroom... .so I confront her about this... .our daughter is mistaken... .he had been there to pick up clothes... .and then left at 9PM... .he then came back the next morning after an early dentist appointment... .the text messages I receive later seem to surround this evening.

I find a picture taken in a photo booth of them kissing... .I explode... .(I have never hit my wife... .and never will... .this was an emotional display).  She tells me they took to photo and sent a copy of it to the girlfriend to make her jealous... .she's pissed that I confront her with this... .and takes off... .she'd been at a dance club with some mutual friends... .our exchange was by phone... .I'm the bad guy for snooping... .she picks up her jacket and leaves the club without telling her friends boo... .and is gone until noon the next day when one of our friends pick her up... .say she was in a hotel by herself thinking... .who knows.  The next day she trips down the steps of our apartment and twists her ankle... .so I ignore the evidence already at hand... .come on... .this is her cousin... .and when she asks the cousin to stay and help her with the house and kids while I'm at work I agree.

When she sees the doctor for her ankle she also gets a referral to a therapist... .her concern is the flight thing... .where she gets overwhelmed and leaves... .and not knowing if she wants to be a 30 year old wife and mother or an 18 year old with no responsibilities.

Later that week I get contacted by the ex-girlfriend... .supposedly... .who says yes, they sent the photo... .she knew it was my wife and laughed about it.  I later discover this FB message contact came from a FB page my wife created... .on this FB page she's "in a relationship" with the cousin... .there's also a second instagram account by the same name... .with lots of #inlove... .pictures of their tattoos... .holding hands... .one of his head resting on her boobs... .I don't see these until the night of our big blowup.

she then creates yet another FB account and contacts me again as the exgirlfriend with the same story.  I confront her with both... .she says one was created to "create the illusion" that he had a new girlfriend to make the ex jealous... .

after valentines day I notice that HE is wearing a bracelet that says "hers" in English... .it looks new and I have never noticed it before... .I told myself if I find a bracelet with "his" on it I'll blow my top.  So I'm taking my kids to church... .putting our youngest into the car... .and see one of her purses on the floor... .I look in it and there's the matching "his" bracelet.  I confront them... .their story is that this was the exgirlfriends... .he loves her so much he still wears it... .then his mom (who is visiting) says, oh, that's mine... .he gave it to me a few weeks ago... .and the purse... .it was one his Mom gave to my wife the night she stayed there... .too many holes, I'm not buying it.  That night my wife and I go to dinner so we can talk... .I tell her that I think there is a lot more to this story than her helping to make the exgirlfriend jealous... .that I think he figures into that part of her that wants to be young and have no responsibilities... .but that I do not believe she had sex with him... .I told her my rationale for believing she had not had sex with him was because she is not evil... .and it would be a truly evil person who moved her lover into the house she occupied with her husband and family.

I created an Instagram account a few days later... .found the exgirlfriend... .and messaged her asking about whether or not they sent a picture... .she says no... .and then sends me text messages she had screen shots of made in December... .around the time my wife stayed at her cousins... .and pictures she'd pulled from his Instagram... .never showing my wife's face... .but them holding hands... .and one of him with his head resting on her boobs.  He's in my house when I get the messages and I physically beat him... .(I know... .I should have just thrown him out)... .the worst part is two of my kids saw me beat him... .though my wife didn't.

She maintains that the exgirlfriend created these messages... .which, while possible... .would be extremely difficult and would have needed to be done in advance just waiting for me to contact her.  the exgirlfriend says she tried to contact me before but that she was blocked... .I check my FB and sure enough she and several other people are blocked... .wife denies she blocked anyone.

This is the night my wife left at 9 PM and drove 5 hours to her mom's house with the kids... .for three days... .without telling me where she was.  She brought them home on Friday a week ago, and now I have the kids while she stays at a friends ( I think )... .she sees the kids for a few hours ever day... .

The Sunday after she brought the kids back we agreed we wanted to reconcile... .I placed no conditions EXCEPT that she continue her therapy and that we see a marriage counselor together... .the separation now is to be at least two weeks... .longer if we need it.

She still maintains everything was done to make the ex jealous... .and that the ex faked the messages.  The girl that translated the messages for me (while I understand a lot of Czech there are nuances in language... .especially informal writing... .that don't allow me to understand a lot of what is written.  She pointed out the transition in the screen shots from talking about sex to when she believes it actually occurred.  A mutual friend of my wife and I read the translations and pointed out that same spot as the transition... .but then after reading the last message she said she wasn't as sure about the transition.

I think for my own sanity I need to hear the truth about this relationship.  I lied to myself about what I was seeing for so long... .I really did feel I was going crazy... .being overly suspicious... .overly jealous.  Part of me would want her to tell me the truth about EVERYTHING so that I can make my decision about whether or not to move forward with the relationship on truth.  It would be easier for me, I think, to hear that yes, they had a sexual relationship than it is for me to hear the continued lie about making the ex jealous.  There have been small moments of remorse... .and implicit guilt.  She first refused the idea of marriage counseling because she didn't want to tell the counselor she was a "___ and a slut."  She told me before our first meeting after this blow up that she was scared to see me... .scared to look at my face... .scared to look into my eyes.  The comment I made at our dinner meeting... .about believing she did not have sex with him because that would mean she was evil... .was probably not helpful.

I think to move forward I will at some point need to hear a believable story about all this... .

Then there are the things I lied to myself about in the past to survive... .to stay in the relationship.  When she was pregnant with our fourth child the doctor said she had chlamydia... so we both took the treatment.  She said her exboyfriend... .the biological father of our son (I adopted him in September) gave it to her... .The midwife said that not all hospitals test for chlamydia... .and false negatives were possible.  I was 100% faithful and had myself tested after my last divorce in 2006... .so I know she didn't get it from me... I find it hard to believe that she had three pregnancies... .three different hospitals... .three different doctors... .and that none tested for chlamydia... .or there were three false negatives... .I find it very believable that the exboyfriend I caught her texting with actually did come to our apartment... .in part because the next time I caught her sexting I KNOW this guy came to the apartment... .although the story I'm supposed to accept is that he was only there for a cup of coffee and one of her girlfriends were there the whole time... .nothing happened.

And it's not just about the sexting and cheating... .she lies or withholds the truth about a lot of things.  She took out a loan for $1500 for her dad about a year ago to help him without a word to me... .I paid that off to save the 75% interest... .this past February she took out a loan for $1500 without telling me... .and says it was to pay off a bill from before we got married that came back to haunt her... .might be true... .or she might have given the money to her unemployed cousin... .or done a million other things with it (I found the loan papers the night she left for Germany... .I rifled the whole house)... .

Do I push for the truth on the cousin?  :)o I push for the truth on all these things?  Can we rebuild this with lies still between us?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[livednlearned]

I think to move forward I will at some point need to hear a believable story about all this... .

I think for my own sanity I need to hear the truth about this relationship. 

I lied to myself about what I was seeing for so long... .

I really did feel I was going crazy... .being overly suspicious... .overly jealous. 

Do I push for the truth on the cousin? 

Do I push for the truth on all these things? 

Can we rebuild this with lies still between us?

I'm sorry there is so much pain tied up with her lying.

People with BPD tend to have terrible distress tolerance. Not being able to withstand distress (person X won't like me if I ... .) can lead to the kinds of behaviors you describe.

How would you go about proving she lied? Do you think she is capable of telling you the truth?

[Duped 1]

I don't have a direct answer to your question but I can tell you this. With my exGF I thought for the longest time she was just a liar when she would rewrite history or not own up to her horrible behavior even though the facts supported that she was lying. In some cases she had to know she was lying but in others I feel she truly believed her distorted (and untrue) version as it made her look better and me worse. I don't believe she is truly capable of telling the truth. I've never seen anything like it. It is very disturbing and there is no way she will ever have a healthy relationship.

[daverisk]

Livenlearned... .

I think if I go about the game of "proving" she's lying... .in part I'm playing her game... .which isn't healthy for either of us... .and it puts her on the defensive... .which generally results in either a flight response, or anger.  In some things... .the texting... .she's been shown to have lied... .and admitted it.  I want the truth to come from her... .and I don't know what the truth is... .I know that the relationship between her and her cousin was more than just attempting to make an exgirlfriend jealous... .how far it went... .I don't know... .three times in our married life she's tried to pass herself off as someone else to me via social media or email... .she admits it when I call her out... .but she always has an excuse... .I don't know what her relationship was with the cousin... .but she's still at "this was all to make her jealous."  In other things she's kept secrets... .sometimes things it makes no sense to keep secret... .the loans... .a court appearance for a speeding ticket (if I'm translating it correctly)... .other things.  Part of me... .and one of my advisers with a background this type of issues... .says to leave all the past in the past... .since she's in counseling... .move forward... .look forward.
Your more important question is whether or not she can tell the truth... .there have been times I doubted it... .but in some of her better moments she's capable of the truth... .at least some of it... .usually during the reconciliation from one argument I get the truth about something else... .the first time I caught her sexting... .I got the truth about her sexual past before we met... .the last time I caught her sexting I found out about a loan to her dad... .my hope is that I will learn the truth from her at some point due to her therapy... .

Duped,
I understand your feelings about whether or not she knows she's lying.  I think sometimes she begins to believe the lies.  About three months after she admitted to having an affair (and she's only admitted to one)... .she went on a kick for about two weeks when she said the affair never happened... .that she did all this... .faked the message... .in some grand scheme that was somehow going to convince me we should move to the Czech Republic... .it didn't make sense... .but I think she actually believed it for a while... .cognitive dissonance?  So, I think she's capable of telling the truth... .but that she doesn't always know what the truth is... .

This one will be enormously hard to admit... .her own cousin... .moved into our home... .and me saying just two days before I got the messages and pictures that I trusted her with this guy because I knew she wasn't evil, and it would take a truly evil person to move her lover into the apartment she shares with her husband... .

[livednlearned]

I think you are right that a campaign to disprove the lies is probably a rabbit hole and likely to torpedo the relationship, and will probably interfere with treatment/therapy if she is attending.

Her defense mechanisms sort of stand in for a false self she uses because the conditions for her real self to emerge were absent during emotional and psychological development in childhood. Coming to terms with her real self may be experienced as a form of annihilation -- we really cannot understate the fear involved.

Focusing on the lies means focusing on the false self, if that makes sense.

That does not mean you don't protect yourself, or take care of yourself, or have feelings about any of this. She has a pattern of deceitful behavior and that in and of itself is painful, and makes it difficult to have consistent emotional closeness and intimacy with your spouse.

This becomes a journey about you and what changes you are willing to make. It's about your values and boundaries, and developing relationship skills to create emotional closeness with someone who fundamentally may not understand what that means.

We're here to walk with you. This is not an easy process, though is deeply rewarding if you choose to learn some of these skills.

LnL

[daverisk]

Live,

She is currently seeing a therapist... .three times a week.  So that's the good news... .and a bit expensive.  One of my concerns is I currently feel I need to hear the truth from her at least about this thing with her cousin... .in order to begin to rebuild trust... .yet pushing for the truth... .especially too early or too hard... .will indeed torpedo the relationship.  If I see truly changed behaviors and attitudes on her part... .more of an effort to be open with me... .if I can learn how to let her trust me enough to be vulnerable with me... .I can... .probably... .let go of the past without the full revelation.  However, is there really healing for our BPDs if they don't face their real selves?  Mine has done a great job of creating that false self.  She doesn't like to look at her true self (many of us don't, BPD or not).  About three months after the one affair she admitted to she tried to change the story saying it was made up in some grand scheme to convince me to move to the Czech Republic... .this lasted about 2 weeks... .

At any rate... .my first counseling session is tomorrow... .12 hours from now... .one way or another I need to heal... .I'd rather do it WITH her... .I can't imagine a happy life without her... .but I also can't imagine life continuing as it has... .with both of us in counseling... .her with a psychiatric referral... .and some planned marital counseling... .we may both be able to get where we want to be... .and where she can really be happy with who she is... .

I know there will almost certainly be more sexting between now and the end state... .possibly even another affair... .I have to decide how much of that I can tolerate while she's healing... .

[Meili]

One of my concerns is I currently feel I need to hear the truth from her at least about this thing with her cousin... .in order to begin to rebuild trust... .

But, how will you ever know what the truth really is? Will you believe what she tells you if it doesn't mesh with what you perceive it to be in your mind? Or, does it just have to be something that you are comfortable accepting?

I don't ask those things to be harsh, I ask to help you look at what you're asking. I know that I've felt lied to in the past and I sought the truth. If it didn't mesh with what I believed the truth to be, then I never really felt that I had learned the truth. There are some things that I just have to accept that I'll never truly know.

[daverisk]

Meili

I didn't perceive the question as harsh... .simply realistic... .which is part of the reason I keep coming back here... .someone generally asks the right questions.  The deepest desire on my part... .in this regard... .is to get to the point where I trust what she tells me... .and that will be a journey for both she and I.

Part of the maddening thing in this has been her insistence that it wasn't her actions, but rather my "snooping" which brought about this crisis.  

Maybe if we can ever build that level of trust again, what happened before won't matter.  Part of the problem with all the secrets, lies, etc is that right now I CAN imagine the absolute worst... .and that leaves me in a bad place... .and it's part of the reason I'm starting counseling... .but just to hear something believable with everything that's staring me in the face... .coming home and finding them with legs wrapped together and her leaning on his chest... .them finding lots of excuses to be gone together... .the photo booth picture of them kissing... .the second FB page under a different name with an "in a relationship" status, the Instagram pictures of holding hands... .matching tattoos... .his face pressed up against her breasts... .the 'his/hers' bracelets... .and I am expected to believe all this was done in order to make his ex-girlfriend jealous... .and to believe that FB messages the ex-girlfriend sent to me... .which mention what I am doing... .and scenarios I know they were in together... .were faked by the ex-girlfriend... .this I can't believe or accept.

Mostly she has only ever said this was a scheme to make someone jealous... .there have been other things she's written and done that let me know there was something more... .and perhaps some remorse not simply attached to getting caught.  When I first brought up marriage counseling as a condition to move toward reconciliation her objection was that she didn't want to sit there telling someone she was a ___ and a slut... .words I've NEVER used toward her... .and then, through tears... .a half whispered "I'm so sorry for what I've done."

What I believe is that it might have started out like that... .some weird plan to make the ex jealous... .but even then... .for her the bigger stated problem is that I "snooped" and didn't trust her... .but IF that's how it started it quickly spiraled into something else... .I don't KNOW that they actually had sex... .realistically the probability is that they did... .I guess I would be content with an answer that admitted there was more to it than trying to make an ex jealous... .ownership of incident... .I didn't "snoop" when I found the picture... .I was cleaning the house... .I DID snoop when I found the story too unbelievable... .when my wife proceeded to make me more suspicious by contacting me twice under the guise of being the ex-girlfriend... .and was able to make contact with the real exgirlfriend who sent me the instagram photos and fb messages  (she had his fb password until he changed it sometime in early January).

So, my real hope is to get to the point where we've built enough trust that I'll believe her when she tells me something... .and like I said... .MAYBE we'll even get to the point where I can completely let go of the past without really knowing "the truth."  It's a journey.  I want her to trust me enough to be vulnerable... .and I want to be able to be vulnerable to her again as well.  I hope we get there.

[livednlearned]

There is a third way to look at this, which is where you learn to trust your intuition and instinct, and honor your values.

Sometimes, what we don't trust is our own ability to be alone (or lonely).

We allow ourselves to believe what we want to hear because that way we don't have to deal with betrayal or shame or other excruciating feelings.

Part of this journey is learning to trust our emotional resilience, being able to handle the sadness that someone we love is not yet able to love us the way we want and need.

Do you trust yourself in this relationship?

[daverisk]

Live,

I do trust my ability to be alone... .and lonely... .I know that I can survive a divorce whether or not I get full custody... .joint custody... .or standard visitation... .it's not the life I want for myself or my family... .but I have the ability.

As to trusting my instinct and intuition... .mostly yes with a caveat.  I had my first counseling session today... .laid out my story... .one of the comments the therapist made... .a place where I need work, is to be able to distinguish between her actions and comments which warrant suspicion... .and those that don't but to which I react (over react) anyhow.  Just as I can point to circumstances where her actions and comments have warranted my suspicion and jealousy, I can also point to instances where I have over-reacted.  

It wasn't her alone that created this suspicious mind... .but rather a history of relationships with women who were untrustworthy... .if I'm attracted to a woman she probably needs therapy.  When I over-react it causes her to pull back even more... .make herself even less vulnerable... .which creates more suspicion in me... .it's a vicious cycle.  Mind you, the therapist agrees that the actions I've spoken of here definitely warrant the suspicion... .she agrees the story about making an ex jealous is unbelievable... .and with a description of my wife's actions over our life together agrees that there is a likely dx of BPD.

That we'll discover in a few weeks.  Her therapist was able to fast-track the psychiatric evaluation (amazing in this country)... .she goes in for evaluation in two weeks.  

So, if I understand your question... .your post... .while I don't want the divorce, if it comes I'm not afraid of it and I know I can survive it regardless of where I end up on the custody issue... .and there are certain issues I'm not willing to compromise on... .the therapy being chief among them... .and working with my therapist to develop boundaries... .

I also need to address my over-use of the ellipsis... .rather than the use of commas, colons, and semi-colons... .I have a Master's degree in English for crying out loud.