Needs, expectations and outside validation - I'm confused

[Scarlet Phoenix]

I've been thinking a lot recently about needs and expectations. I'm seeing a therapist (psychoanalysis) once a week and have been since september. And as I've worked on myself and my issues, one thing has kept popping up lately, namely my needs in and expectations for a partner and where my line in the sand is.

And inspired by this thread by Vortex of Confusion, I am bringing up my thoughts here to get feedback from you other board members.

My husband (dBPD) has been very focused lately on how we all have expectations of others, in all kinds of relationships, and when they go unmet, we are unhappy. He feels that we should all have no expectations of others and meet all our needs ourselves (in theory, in practice he has many expectations of me).

I agree that  we should not expect someone else to make us happy or fullfilled or to be the purpose of our lives or to give us value. I think it's a little more nuanced, though.

I do excepct/need that my partner does their part of the housework. Or strokes my cheek or takes me in their arms if I say that I'm not doing well today/I'm ill today etc. I expect them to listen when I'm telling them about my day and not look at their phone or try to change the subject as soon as possible (not that I expect to talk about myself a lot, that's not what I'm saying. Just that I think that when my partner tells me about something that concerns them, I am present, and I expect the same from my partner).

We talk a lot about boundaries here at bpdfamily. Like not accepting being cursed at, or stonewalled, or accused of this and that and the other, etc. To be clear to ourselves about our values, to set our boundaries based on that and to act on them. Isn't it also part of the package to have certain expectations based on those values?

I guess for me it comes down to basic decency and respect between partners. What that means might be different for each person, according to their values and their needs, to be a bit technical. But yes, I think it's part of a relationship to have certain expectations. Am I off course here?

I see in some other threads people talking about not seeking outside valdiation and being our own sources of happiness and fullfillment and to validate ourselves. That is all fine, I agree. But isn't also giving, taking and asking part of a relationship? Shouldn't we ask for some minimum standards from a partner? And be clear about what we expect of them to ourselves and to our partners? And likewise seek to understand our partners' needs/expectations and whether we are comfortable with meeting those?

I feel that having some specific needs/expectations, expressing them, and possibly even making the decision to leave the relationship if our partner can't/won't meet them is part of every relationship.

But it's not what I see expressed here by many members. So, now I feel confused

[heartandwhole]

Hi Scarlet Phoenix, 

I can relate very much to your query in this thread. I think some of us have taken on the idea that everything must come from "within," and if the outside world is causing us pain, only an internal, personal change will rectify the matter. There is also the idea that unconditional love is the goal for all relationships. No expectations; just total acceptance and understanding.

I do agree in principle with these ideas, but feel, like you, that there is more to it when it comes to the practicalities of personal relationships. In my view relationships have conditions. While we can feel unconditional love for our partners, children, friends, parents, etc., it doesn't mean we will necessarily carry on an active relationship with them. No, in my view, partners share their values, boundaries, and expectations and agree to respect them as much as possible, which means it has to be an ongoing conversation.

My husband (dBPD) has been very focused lately on how we all have expectations of others, in all kinds of relationships, and when they go unmet, we are unhappy. He feels that we should all have no expectations of others and meet all our needs ourselves (in theory, in practice he has many expectations of me).

A long time ago, a childhood friend and I reconnected. She was having a kind of crisis at the time, and something she did made me feel hurt. Now, it was my own pain that her actions triggered. It was there all the time; she just stepped on my broken toe, so to speak. She even said, "It's not possible for me to hurt you, that's all in you." Okay, she was right, but I didn't want to hear that in the moment, right? I wanted her to show that she cared about me and cared that I was feeling hurt.

Isn't it also part of the package to have certain expectations based on those values?

I think it is.

I guess for me it comes down to basic decency and respect between partners. What that means might be different for each person, according to their values and their needs, to be a bit technical. But yes, I think it's part of a relationship to have certain expectations. Am I off course here?

Not at all, in my opinion! I once had a relationship with a man in which we appeared to have no expectations of each other, but it wasn't true. I don't think even the "freest" kind of relationship can work without expectations. They might be un-communicated, but they are there.

But isn't also giving, taking and asking part of a relationship? Shouldn't we ask for some minimum standards from a partner? And be clear about what we expect of them to ourselves and to our partners? And likewise seek to understand our partners' needs/expectations and whether we are comfortable with meeting those?

Yes, I think this is part of nurturing relationships.

I feel that having some specific needs/expectations, expressing them, and possibly even making the decision to leave the relationship if our partner can't/won't meet them is part of every relationship.

I agree 

But it's not what I see expressed here by many members. So, now I feel confused

I can understand this. And I've struggled with a type of "all or nothing" thinking with regard to the same questions, Scarlet. I'm glad you've brought up this subject. What I've learned for myself is that it's perfectly okay to have needs, wants, expectations. It doesn't mean anyone will meet them, or want to fulfill them. But having them is human and wanting to share a life with someone who DOES care and want to meet them is a natural thing to desire and to do. Ultimately, yes, we have to take care of ourselves, because there are no guarantees. But practically, I think we connect with others to learn more about how to do that—for ourselves and for them—and to try to love and care for each other as best we can.

So, I think your thinking is very reasonable, Scarlet Phoenix.

What situation brings out the "no expectation" argument from your partner the most?

heartandwhole

[schwing]

Hi Scarlet Phoenix,

My husband (dBPD) has been very focused lately on how we all have expectations of others, in all kinds of relationships, and when they go unmet, we are unhappy. He feels that we should all have no expectations of others and meet all our needs ourselves (in theory, in practice he has many expectations of me).

I agree that  we should not expect someone else to make us happy or fullfilled or to be the purpose of our lives or to give us value. I think it's a little more nuanced, though.

I think it is fair to consider the degree to which other people, such as our significant others, contribute or deter from the happiness in our lives. I don't think we should expect someone else to make us happy or fulfilled to a degree.  I know that when I was in my BPD relationship, however, I really had a bad gauge for how much my BPD relationship was adding or subtracting from my happiness.  I thought that I was with the love of my life and I would walk across hot coals or bend over backwards in order to be with, stay with, the love of my life.  Never mind that this was the same love of my life who was creating the situations in which I had to constantly prove my love. 

I erred on the side of self-neglect because I had a distorted perspective of how much discomfort I was willing to accept in order to stay in my BPD relationship.  And I had this distorted perspective because I put too much of my expectation that other people were the source of my happiness and fulfillment. The advice I needed to hear was that I should depend more upon myself.

I do excepct/need that my partner does their part of the housework. Or strokes my cheek or takes me in their arms if I say that I'm not doing well today/I'm ill today etc. I expect them to listen when I'm telling them about my day and not look at their phone or try to change the subject as soon as possible (not that I expect to talk about myself a lot, that's not what I'm saying. Just that I think that when my partner tells me about something that concerns them, I am present, and I expect the same from my partner).

We talk a lot about boundaries here at bpdfamily. Like not accepting being cursed at, or stonewalled, or accused of this and that and the other, etc. To be clear to ourselves about our values, to set our boundaries based on that and to act on them. Isn't it also part of the package to have certain expectations based on those values?

I think it is very fair to expect a domestic partner to function as a partner.  I also think it's easy to lose sight of what we expect of a partner when our partner is behaving more like an abuser and we are just trying to save the relationship into which we have invested so much of ourselves.

I guess for me it comes down to basic decency and respect between partners. What that means might be different for each person, according to their values and their needs, to be a bit technical. But yes, I think it's part of a relationship to have certain expectations. Am I off course here?

You are totally on course here.

I see in some other threads people talking about not seeking outside valdiation and being our own sources of happiness and fullfillment and to validate ourselves. That is all fine, I agree. But isn't also giving, taking and asking part of a relationship? Shouldn't we ask for some minimum standards from a partner? And be clear about what we expect of them to ourselves and to our partners? And likewise seek to understand our partners' needs/expectations and whether we are comfortable with meeting those?

Yes.  These are all reasonable considerations.

Another question I would consider, is what is it that we want/need so much that we are willing to give up all these other considerations in order to have?  Because when we are in these kinds of unbalanced relationships, that is what has happened.  Either we never learned to make such considerations in a relationship, or we relinquished them in order to apparently get something else we consider more valuable.

I feel that having some specific needs/expectations, expressing them, and possibly even making the decision to leave the relationship if our partner can't/won't meet them is part of every relationship.

But it's not what I see expressed here by many members. So, now I feel confused

Really?  I guess it depends on which boards you are reading/posting in.  But I should like to think that eventually everyone gets around to making a conscientious choice about their relationship.  I think though that first we need to get in a place where the pain has stopped or at least is more manageable.

Best wishes,

Schwing

[Grey Kitty]

My husband (dBPD) has been very focused lately on how we all have expectations of others, in all kinds of relationships, and when they go unmet, we are unhappy. He feels that we should all have no expectations of others and meet all our needs ourselves (in theory, in practice he has many expectations of me).

First off, there is a saying--even a broken clock shows the correct time twice a day.

Consider that when your dBPDh says anything about how to have a healthy r/s. He might be finding great truths and answers. Even if he is, he won't be able to implement them very well, or see how to apply them to your life in a useful, unbiased way. Take those statements with a real grain of salt 

I see in some other threads people talking about not seeking outside valdiation and being our own sources of happiness and fullfillment and to validate ourselves. That is all fine, I agree. But isn't also giving, taking and asking part of a relationship? Shouldn't we ask for some minimum standards from a partner? And be clear about what we expect of them to ourselves and to our partners? And likewise seek to understand our partners' needs/expectations and whether we are comfortable with meeting those?

Have high standards for letting people into your life. And the closer you let them, the higher the standards should be. A spouse/partner/lover should meet higher standards than a close friend. A close friend should meet higher standards than a distant friend. You don't get to choose family members, but back away a bit from ones who don't meet your standards, and hold the best ones closer.

That said, you cannot change people at all, and honestly, even when people want to change themselves, it is really hard. So if your dBPDh doesn't meet your standards and expectations of a husband, asking him to step up is more of a long-term wish than something you can count on. (And... .uhm... .it is complicated to address if you realize that you married someone who doesn't really meet your current standards, and have to figure out what to do about that situation!)

There is also a fine line between seeking external validation/completion... .and wanting supportive/validating people in your life. Yes, you should be a whole person who doesn't need somebody else to complete you. That said, why have friends if they don't give anything back into your life?

You can validate yourself, be independent on your own... .and have people who care about you, support you, and validate you in your life. They don't have to be opposites or contradictory.

[flourdust]

I'm going to make one suggestion, Scarlet Phoenix.

In your post, if you replace "expectations" with "desires," what happens to the meaning?